Talk:Pihtije

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Proposed merge with P'tcha

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge Pihtije and Pork jelly into Aspic. MartinZ02 (talk) 16:51, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

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I believe it may be a mistake to merge Pihtije or Pork jelly with P'tcha. The former two are pork dishes, whereas P'tcha is beef (calves' feet jelly). Furthermore, P'tcha is primarily a dish in Jewish cuisine, whereas the other two are prohibited in Jewish law and tradition due to the prohibition against pork. Thanks. Sinecostan (talk) 06:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Sinecostan. Do not merge P'tcha with Pihtije or Pork jelly. Although similarly prepared, it is distinct in terms of cuisine and ingredients. -- Chefallen (talk) 05:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support. The merge makes sense. The differences between these dishes are smaller than the similarities. It would be more useful to have a single article that can be linked to, and readers can find the information there about the differences. Gronky (talk) 22:11, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Against. Merging kosher and nonkosher would be insulting to some and the merger wouldn't accomplish more than a link would. Rinsler (talk) 75.139.83.60 (talk) 14:34, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Not only insulting to "some" but also meaningless - it makes no sense to discuss Jewish food as part of food that contains pork which is strictly forbidden in Judaism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.41.158 (talk) 11:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support. If the recipes are the same and only differ in one ingredient, namely type of meat, they should be merged into one overview article with a general name like "Meat jelly". One can easily separate the different ethnic and religious traditions into different sections of the same article. Just placing them into one article cannot be insulting, because it is just a matter of structure (category - article - section - paragraph). Otherwise, one may claim that it is also insulting to have all these dishes in one encyclopaedia. Just a similar example: the article Marriage describes the marriage customs and rules in different religions (also in Judaism), and also discusses same-sex marriage, polygamy, divorce, adultery, i.e. things prohibited by many religious laws. Is it insulting? --Off-shell (talk) 14:11, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• The english word for this dish is Aspic. That's the appropriate place to merge these pages from other languages. The common idea is that the dish needs to jell and for that to happen, meat bones have to be used. otherwise it won't jell. Pork bones, chicken bones, fish bones, every region has their own idea about that. It has nothing to do with cheap cuts of meat as long as there are bones. All the articles seem to be missing this main ingredient. USchick (talk) 23:30, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

While an aspic in general meets the "as long as there are bones" criterion, a traditional p'tcha must be made from calves' feet and only from calves' feet, which is suggested by the name both from the Turkish and in the Hebrew - רגל קרושה - regel krusha - jellied foot. No other aspic could, would, or should be called a p'tcha. It perhaps deserves mention there, or perhaps to be a member of a category of aspics, but it is a specific, unique instance, not a traditional Jewish name for a generic form. --Eliyahu S ^Talk 17:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Opposed. A p'tcha is unlike pihtije in that the former must be made from calves' feet, while the latter can be any of a variety of different meats, but most often pork, and almost never calves' feet. Also, as noted in the article, a p'tcha is a festive Ashkenazi dish offered up on Sabbaths, holidays, or weddings and the like, and is almost never served at a "normal" meal, so it is a food with a specific temporal association, unlike a pihtije. Finally, a pihtije functions as a zakuski, or accompaniment to hard liquor, which is not the purpose of a p'tcha. The only thing they have in common is that they are both meat aspics, albeit each a specific and different form of aspic, and were they to be merged there, as User:USchick suggests, then each would deserve a separate subsection, anyway, and eventually they would be broken back out into separate articles regarding their different histories, usages, etc., anyway. As User:Rinsler correctly pointed out, a See Also link is more than adequate recognition of their mutual history and the vague similarities of cognomen.--Eliyahu S ^Talk 17:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

One of your arguments seems to contradict itself. You say, pihtije functions as a zakuski. But zakuski are typically starters on banquet tables in Eastern Europe. The article states also: "Pihtije are frequently used in slavas and other celebratory occasions with Serbs." So it is also a festive dish, similar to P'tcha. Of course, the particular traditions differ, but in general this is a festive dish. And I agree with you, that each dish would require a separate section. However, as I wrote above, it is rather a question of how much content one will have in each section. If it is just a few paragraphs per section or so, then I see no reason why they should be kept separately. --Off-shell (talk) 18:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

While zakuski can be "starters" that is not to say that they always are. I have enjoyed zakuski (not of pihtje but of kosher dishes) with friends where the only food served was the zakuski, as an accompaniment to drinking alcohol. There, the zakuski function to help absorb the alcohol and delay its entry into the bloodstream. (See Ouzo#Aperitif drink for a discussion.) The only "celebration" was the bottle of booze itself; I'd hardly say that Arak (drink) with salads or vodka with fish constitutes a "banquet." --Eliyahu S ^Talk 22:31, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

So far it looks like noone objects merging Pork jelly and Pihtije. The "oppose" votes are only related to P'tcha. If one decides to merge (fully or partially), I agree that this can be done in the Aspic article, or if it becomes too large, in a separate "Meat jelly" article. --Off-shell (talk) 18:41, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Good proposal. I would support the modified merge. --Eliyahu S ^Talk 22:32, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.