Talk:Santorini (wine)

Vinsanto

Hi all,

I have recently discovered this page on Wikipedia and I would like to make some edits to the content. I recognize the sources are cited so this is no fault of those who have generously contributed the content they found to this page, but the fact is much of the information previously printed had either been proven wrong and/or discovered not to be accurate. It is important to recognize that as an up-and-coming region with little to no real recognition in the past in terms of wine, much of the information printed is inaccurate and/or out of date. This is a clear case of the fact that just because something is written, it doesn't make it true.

To clarify my "expertise," if you will, I work very closely with the organization All About Greek Wines as the PR Manager for digital outreach on behalf of the wines from Santorini, Greece. All About Greek Wines has been directly contracted by the Greek government and the EU and, therefore, I am privy to up-to-date information and have spent some time there myself talking with the winemakers, etc.

We can start with the section, "Liastos

Previously written:

Liastos

To avoid confusion with the Vin Santo wines typically produced in the Tuscan wine region of Chianti, many producers on Santorini have taken to labeling their straw wine produced in the vinsanto style as Liastos which is derived from the ancient Greek word helios (meaning "sun"). The name pays homage to the vinification method that includes laying Assyrtiko and Aidini grapes out in the sun to dry into concentrated raisins that are then pressed and fermented to produce a sweet dessert wine.[4]

My notes/proposed changes:

I have never seen a bottle of Vinsanto (note the capital "V") labeled Liastos in Greece and/or the US. I had the opportunity to tour ten of the wineries in Greece and am in contact with all of their winemakers/marketing people/families, etc. Those wineries include (Hatzidakis, SantoWines, Domaine Sigalas, Canavas Roussos, Volcan Winery, San..Torini Winery, Gaia Wines, Estate Argyros, Boutari Santorini and Gavalas Winery.) Though I do not have a book source that specifically states, "Winemakers on Santorini do not call their wines Liastos," I can vouch for this with first-hand, in-depth knowledge. Also, I have several references stating the winemakers call their sweet wines made from dried grapes, Vinsanto. Through legislation in the late 1990's-early 2000's the EU determined Santorini has the exclusive rights to use the term "Vinsanto" on their bottles and Italy is to use the term, "Vino Santo." The reason behind this is because the Italians adopted their style of Vino Santo from the island of Santorini (see below for further clarifcation.) Further, in the 1970's Greek wine legislation ruled that Vinsanto fell under the appellation PDO-Santorini meaning each wine must meet specific parameters (majority Assyrtiko with the rest being made up of Aidani and/or Athiri.) I have never seen a reference to the term "Liastos." I looked up the source listed: Domine, A., ed (2008). Wine (the ISBN is for the German version, it appears)and I do not know this book so, unfortunately, I can't review what is being talked about here. This book may be referring to other dessert wines/straw wines produced on the island by some producers who's wines do not follow the proper EU standards to be qualified as PDO Santorini.

To go a bit further with this point, it is important to recognize that Italy adopted the concept of Vinsanto from Santorini (Vino Santo = Wine (vino) from Santorini (Santo). ) According to the "Santorini of Santorini" by the Fany Boutari Foundation in 1995. ISBN 960-85545-2-7 in the Middle Ages, wines from Santorini were all vinified as sweet wines due to their vinification techniques.

Santorini was a major trading port in that time throughout the Mediterranean. Wines purchased from this port bore the name "vino santo or vin santo" which indicated its origin. The Venetians and other Italian seaman purchased these wines (made from grapes dried in the sun and aged in oak barrels) and brought them back to Italy. After several years the wines were later adopted by the church and used in religious ceremonies such as first communions which spurred Italian culture to search for religious connection to determine their origin. However, historical research will show the correlation to trading.

Further to the qualifications for PDO Santorini (and this information can also be found on our website, in several of the brochures/websites from the wineries, in the Boutari book and other places) "Traditionally, Vinsanto is made as a “vin doux naturel”, from late harvested grapes sun dried for 12-14 days, then crushed and fermented with a minimum 9% of alcohol. Vinsanto can also be made as a “vin de liqueur” with the addition of alcohol or distillates of wine. In this case the alcohol required must be at least 15%.The appellation also requires a minimum of 24 months aging in oak barrels, where the wines develop a golden-orange color with a complex bouquet of dried fruits and raisins, together with sweet spice."

Please let me know if anyone has any questions or needs any clarification, otherwise, I will be cleaning this up a bit, adding a few more intricate details and changing the section, "Liathos" shortly.

Thank you

Constance Chamberlain Constance_Chamberlain@comcast.net Wines from Santorini http://www.winesfromSantorini.com

• Constance, thank you for your willingness to help us improve this article. I think the biggest hurdle will be making sure that we reliable sources that can be cited with footnotes in the text. While I understand that you are privy to up-to-date "first hand information", Wikipedia's long standing view has been that such information should be published in outside sources first before it is used here. (Our page on Wikipedia:No original research has more details). You mention the text "Santorini of Santorini" by the Fany Boutari Foundation in 1995. ISBN 960-85545-2-7, which seems like it could be a useable source, but I wasn't sure how much of the information you listed can be sourced to that text? Also, would you be willing to post here a "rough draft" of your proposed edits to the "Liathos" section before you edit the actual article? This, again, just helps avoid any WP:COI issues. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 21:10, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Rechecking the Domaine Wine source, it does say that some producers label the Liathos wines as Vin Santo (but it doesn't really say anything about whether Vin Santo is more widely used over Liathos so we would need another ref if that is the case). Right now, I have tweaked the wording to go as best as it can with the source and with some of the information you provided. Of course more details can be further fleshed out once we've identified what references can be used. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 21:35, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oh, also you can sign your posts with four ~~~~ on talk pages. We don't do that for edits to the articles but it helps with date stamps and user page links for discussion pages. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 21:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Agne- For one, in order for "Liathos" to be included, I'd request there be more than one source - I have several books referencing Santorini Vinsanto (kept together like this) and not one has ever mentioned Liathos and, as I said, I've never seen it. It may be printed, but that doesn't necessarily make it truth. All of my historical information is in the Boutari book and considering it is written by a winery that resides on the island, I would assume it's a very reputable source, if not THE most reputable. I will write something up in the coming week and put it in the section. I will also use my other books, articles, etc. that will show you the validity of this information. The point of Wikipedia, and from what I understand, your project is, is to provide valid information to interested people. As a result, it's important to consider the validity of a statement if it is only found in one source, correct? ~~~~

Well technically, the point of Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. It's a fine line but basically it, again, just comes down to reliable sources. I appreciate your willingness to work with Wikipedia with finding sources with your edits. I have no doubt we'll be able to work together and craft something that will be satisfactory. Oh and the signature is just the four ~'s. We add the <nowiki> part to allow us to type out the code without it actually doing the action. :) PrimeBOT (talk) 02:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Vinsanto is an ancient winemaking tradition of Santorini that dates back thousands of years and represents an important part of Santorini’s history.

Under Santorini Vinsanto AOC the wine must be predominately made from the Assyrtiko grape-- at least 51%, the remaining 49% is made up of Athiri and Aidani and some small amounts of locally grown white varieties. Vinsanto is crafted “vin doux naturel,” meaning it has not undergone any chaptalization. Vinsanto is made from late harvested grapes that have been dried in the sun for 12-14 days. They are then crushed and fermented and are then aged for a minimum of 24 months in oak barrels. Vinsanto must achieve a minimum of 9% abv.

Vinsanto is known for its golden-orange to dark amber coloring with a complex bouquet of dried apricots, golden raisins and other dried fruits combined with sweet spice and an underlying minerality. Although it is classified as a dessert wine, the high acid of the Assyrtiko and other indigenous grapes grown on the island balance the sugar content to produce an extremely palatable drink that can be paired with a variety of foods.

The winemaking style of vin santo can also be found throughout Italy and has historically been known as Italy’s “Holy Wine.” However, its origins lie in Santorini. Santorini was used as a trading port through much of history, but produced very little goods themselves. The island focused on the cultivation of wine that would be exported from the island throughout the Mediterranean. Packages taken from the island were labeled, “Santo,” to denote their origin. Wine from the island was denoted, “vin” or “vino” to denote the packages contents; thus, the term “Vinsanto” was born.

In 2002, the EU determined that there was enough information to name Santorini, Greece as Vinsanto’s place of origin thus granting the island exclusive rights to the use of the name Vinsanto on its sweet wines. Italy may still use vin santo or vino santo to denote its winemaking style.

Here is the article. I look forward to our discussion. --PrimeBOT (talk) 02:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by VinoCC (talk • contribs) 17:05, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

As there have not been any disagreements or edits for the past 6 days, I will be changing the information on the main page shortly.

Thank you--PrimeBOT (talk) 02:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

References