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Italian titles vs English titles

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The page should be under THE PSYCHIC. That's the title of the film as far as English-speaking fans are concerned. No one would look it up under the Italian title unless he or she was an elitist, just showing off. There weren't "multiple English titles". It was released simply as "THE PSYCHIC".

I'm finding it really odd that most of the titles in this articles are in Italian. I have no qualms with them being in Italian IF English speakers commonly refer to them in Italian (e.g. Zombi 2). However, most English speakers refer to most of these films by their English titles (which, mind you, are just as valid). Grapple X, no one is using their "favourite" title, they're using the titles that are most commonly known by English speakers. If you look at the French wiki, you'll see that they use the French title (L'Emmurée vivante) because that is how it is most commonly known among French speakers. Yes, we don't forcibly translate what doesn't need translated and I never did 'forcibly translate' the titles, I just used the ones most people know of to keep consistency with OTHER articles. Digitopolis (talk) 04:35, 31 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I pointed out that editors were picking their "favourite" because it can clearly be seen in the article (reliably sourced to the British Film Institute) that this particular film (and others like it) have been released under multiple English-language titles. To arbitrarily pick one of those over the others would be picking a favourite, as none of them are the original title, all are simply foreign-market translations, and we'd only be choosing one based on nothing more that what we liked—there's no "official" English-language title to pick from. Do we use a straight translation (Seven Notes in Black), the release title closest to a straight translation (Murder to the Tune of Seven Black Notes) or the nothing-to-do-with-the-original-title name that seems to be preferred by IP editors (Psychic)? You can see why it has been clear that it's been a matter of previous editors picking favourites; sticking to the original release title cleanly avoids this issue. And no, consistency with other articles is not actually a concern, although if you'd like, this one is consistent with several other articles, including the GA and FA class Nude per l'assassino, Terang Boelan or Ruma Maida, which all use the original release titles of films rather than arbitrarily picking one of several English-language titles. GRAPPLE X 15:29, 31 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I guess that's reasonable. You have a good point about the multiple English titles (while I don't like "The Psychic" as a title, many people probably prefer it because it was theatrically released that way and the Severin DVD uses that title). On an unrelated note, we should probably change the image to the Italian poster because the current one pretty much spoils the film (or at least use the DVD cover instead). Digitopolis (talk) 23:09, 31 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The page should be under THE PSYCHIC. That's the title of the film as far as English-speaking fans are concerned. No one would look it up under the Italian title unless he or she was an elitist.

Hey what happened? I thought it was decided to list "The Psychic" as an aka in the lead sentence? Looks like someone deleted it again after all that! Why did everyone bother to "discuss" it? - June 2017 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.129.15.71 (talk) 19:52, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 January 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. This has been sat in the backlog for several weeks now and I think it's pretty apparent that, with the votes roughly split and good, policy/guideline-based arguments both in favour and in opposition, there is no consensus to rename the article. Jenks24 (talk) 07:07, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Sette note in nero → The Psychic – per WP:UE and WP:NCF#Foreign-language films. As confirmed by the poster appended to the article, this Italian feature was marketed, distributed and reviewed in the English-speaking world under the title The Psychic. Although the 2013 exchange ["Italian titles vs English titles"], above, postulates that the main title header should display the Italian title because there are multiple English-language titles, a search of film listings in newspapers across the English-speaking world, only finds "The Psychic" as a title which was released for public exhibition and on DVD. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:07, 30 January 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:38, 9 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films) and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English)
  • Oppose. The majority of the sources used list the original title (Sette note in nero); the use of The Psychic is much narrower. The alternate title does not strike me as common enough in reliable sources to overturn the use of the original. GRAPPLE X 21:09, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Google Books shows here that results seem to go back and forth. The Washington Post reviewed it in 1979 as The Psychic as seen here. Not really sure which way to go, but at minimum, I would suggest mentioning The Psychic in the lead section's opening sentence. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 18:18, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I've checked multiple sources and this film is only known in English-speaking countries as The Psychic. I seriously doubt any English speaking film enthusiasts refer to this film by an Italian title, unless they are elitist.--— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.129.15.71 (talk) 19:28, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't imagine you've checked very hard, as there are multiple English-language sources in the article itself which refute this. GRAPPLE X 19:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the sources are there, no question; but, who read's them ? many ? elitists ? Let us take a look at the dvd box: I don't read "Sette note in nero", so what ? In English-speaking countries, the poor man takes the title from the box, so explain us, how would he take another title ? --Robertiki (talk) 23:04, 7 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:Reliable sources before casting personal attacks; reading sources is the core of how our articles are written here. GRAPPLE X 00:11, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize if it seemed a personal attack, it was not my intention. Anyway I don't understand your point, pointing to WP:Reliable sources: what should I read ? --Robertiki (talk) 16:37, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The part where they're a necessary component of any sound article; not something you can dismiss as "elitist". GRAPPLE X 17:41, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder about English-speaking readers that have been puzzled by the article not mentioning the cover title. --Robertiki (talk) 16:44, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:ENGLISH: "If an examination of the sources in an article shows that one name or version of the name stands out as clearly the most commonly used in the English language, we should follow the sources and use it. If (as will happen occasionally) something else is demonstrably more common in reliable sources for English as a whole, and this is not a question of national varieties of English, use that instead." Based on my search (explained above), The Psychic is not "demonstrably more common" than Sette note in nero. Furthermore, WP:DIVIDEDUSE says, "When there is evenly divided usage and other guidelines do not apply, leave the article name at the latest stable version." Furthermore, if there is no move, I would recommend for the film poster to be replaced with the Italian-language version (e.g., this). Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:02, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    See search results in Google Books using the keywords "Sette note in nero"|"The Psychic" "Lucio Fulci" here for your own assessment. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:07, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination. The only reason to retain the Italian title is if there was no clear English title, or it was very obscure. Neither is the case. The film was mainly marketed as "The Psychic" in English speaking countries (as evidenced by the main image in the article), and that's what we should call it.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:40, 20 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:DIVIDEDUSE The History of Italian Cinema Gian Piero Brunetta - 2009 "There were other films worth remembering as well: Fulci's Sette note in nero (Murder to the Tune of Seven Black Notes; The Psychic; or Seven Notes in Black, 1977)" In ictu oculi (talk) 15:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:UE. Use is divided, but it's between a widely used English title and a widely used non-English title. The spirit of the guideline is to use the title English-speaking readers are most likely to encounter and recognize in the real world; the only way that would be "Sette note in nero" is if that was substantially more common in English language sources (as happens in many cases). That's not true here: "The Psychic" Fulci gets 668 hits on Google Books, compared to 661 for "Sette note in nero"; it's worth noting that some results for the latter are Italian and thus not relevant here. According to WP:DIVIDEDUSE, if there's no one common name, "Use what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article". In this case, the well established English title would be a better fit.--Cúchullain t/c 15:32, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Cúchullain Homunq (࿓) 14:06, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per GRAPPLE, Erik and In ictu oculi JuniorFan88 (talk) 21:30, 27 February 2017 (UTC) — JuniorFan88 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Is this is your first edit in Wikipedia ? (red user and talk page). If so, this is not a vote. Please explain why you agree with one or the other reasoning. --Robertiki (talk) 00:44, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Look, this isn't clear-cut and The Psychic is widely used enough such that I don't have any policy/MOS based objections against such a move, but it does seem the film has been released under several titles in the English-language, which makes me question the wisdom of the move. It appears the first English title was Murder to the Tune of Seven Black Notes according to IMDB and The Psychic is a "new title". Either way, the British Film Institute acknowledges both titles. It has also had two other English titles if IMDB is correct: Seven Notes in Black and Death Tolls Seven Times (although IMDB is not RS and the BFI does not list either of these). Allmovie lists them all except Death Tolls Seven Times. Given the inconsistency here this is obviously not a straight choice between a foreign title and a standardised English title i.e. À bout de souffle/Breathless, which has played into my decision to oppose the move. It seems sensible to me to follow the lead set by the BFI, Allmovie and IMDB and stick with the original native title and list the alternative English ones in the lead. Betty Logan (talk) 19:56, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other Move instead to Seven notes in black, the literal translation which has also been used quite frequently. Lyrda (talk) 20:09, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 14 July 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 05:00, 21 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]


The Psychic (1977 film) → Sette note in nero – The above discussion related to this page's title did not result in any consensus to move the page, yet without any further discussion the page was moved on July 5th anyway. I am requesting that this cavalier move be reverted and the proper use of consensus be respected. GRAPPLE X 21:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Comment. WP:Consensus may change, even in the space of a few months, considering the arguments within the previous discussion contending in favor of the English-language title. However, I'm certain everyone would at least agree that the parenthetical qualifier is unnecessary [unless someone creates an article for one or more of the various TV series episodes titled "The Psychic"], but, as of this writing, The Psychic redirects to The Psychic (1977 film). But as far as the English-language title, The Psychic, is concerned, it is the only title under which this film has been marketed, distributed, reviewed and issued on DVD in the English-speaking world and, as pointed out in the previous discussion above, by Robertiki, English-language film websites refer to it as The Psychic. The only Italian titles which remain in their original form in the English-speaking world are short, simple, straightforward ones such as La Strada, La Dolce Vita, La Notte, L'Avvenura or L'Eclisse. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:12, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    This isn't a matter of consensus changing--this is a case of consensus being ignored without further discussion; essentially an argument was lost and teddy was thrown from the pram regardless. Without a clear consensus for the move to the current title the article should not have been moved. GRAPPLE X 14:26, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, if the talk page of an article already contains a "Requested move" section with !votes, then any future title changes need to go through an RM process. Since the previous discussion was closed as no consensus, the topic should certainly be reopened within a year or two, but four-and-a-half months after the March 1 close is perhaps too soon for a new RM discussion. My Oppose, which I will strike-over and replace with Comment was cast in initially perceiving this process as the start of such a new discussion, rather than as a request for the reversal of an undiscussed move. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 20:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Giallo

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… it‘s not. Maikel (talk) 19:57, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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