Talk:Sexual grooming/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Legal part

Why can't I add the legal part in brakets I want to add at the beginning and I even have to start a discussion in the talk page for something like this? What's the problem? I already explained in the post-edit message. 151.46.64.34 (talk) 12:45, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

There are several problems. First, the word "child" already has connotations and definitions within the article indicating it's meant to refer to someone under the age of majority, which is 18 in most legal jurisdictions, and this number is usually higher than the legal of consent. In other words, adding this "legal part" is redundant. Second, it is very poor writing style to including a very long part in parenthesis in the first sentence of an article, (see MOS:LEAD).

Is there perhaps some kind of language barrier here that I'm not seeing, about the connotations of these terms? I see your IP address is from Italy. Or is there some specific concern about misunderstanding?Legitimus (talk) 13:16, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I have citizenship in Italy, but I was born and grown in the US. And anyway, the age of majority is not the same in the US, three states have the age of majority established as 17, 19 and 21, and child and so child grooming refer always (officially and legally at least, depending the state) to age of consent. There are cases in which you don't even have to be in age of majority to get married. Not to mention the fact that at 16 you can drive or leave school to go to work, and the fact that even who is in age of majority but still doesn't have the age to drink alcohol yet (normally 21) is still referred to as a child or a minor.

What age are you using to define the word "child?"Legitimus (talk) 17:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't get it. Are you sure you wrote the question correctly? And does it have to do with what I wrote?

Your edits to the article seems to imply that the word "child" as used in the first sentence is not sufficient to cover the full age range that is included in the definition of "child grooming." So, at what age do you think the term "child" stops being applicable, but is still below the age of consent? That point is, you must prove this definition with an objective, reliable source. My contention is, that the content of the first sentence is sufficient in context. It spells out the concept in a concise sentence, and that more specific details about what a "child" is are best left to the rest of the article.Legitimus (talk) 19:05, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

The term child is used depending on the various implications and situations. When you don't have the legal age to get married, to drink or buy alcohol, to consent to sex, to drive, no matter if you are in majority age or not, depending on these examples you're still considered a child. Even for more than adult people is used the term children instead of sons and daughters. Can I go on now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.18.129.155 (talk) 02:29, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

You're cherry-picking what I say in how you formulate your replies. You still haven't explained why the lead sentence, as written, needs your edit added in a way that's supported with sources. I've explained why I think it's redundant. If you think it's not, then you need to provide some kind of link to a reliable website, book, or journal article, that contains definitions which are different from how the lead sentence is written. Your personal opinion is not a source.Legitimus (talk) 12:05, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

I tried once again taking into consideration your last response. I hope I did it right this time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.36.187.255 (talk) 15:56, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

The opening sentence needs to be short and to the point, we should not be getting bogged down in hairsplitting details and parentheticals. - MrOllie (talk) 02:20, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: English 202A Writing in the Social Sciences

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2022 and 9 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kaylingonzalez00 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Cmh6798, Hjk5385.

— Assignment last updated by Openskies789 (talk) 01:34, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

"grooming" for non-English, in English...

I ask for your help as a non-english-native-speaker since the term "grooming" in other languages is often borrowed from English in popularized and scientific circles as "taking care of," for example in the case of the young or among primate offspring, but also in general when defining e.g. gossip as the "human form of grooming." As you can see "grooming" takes on a connotation that is not at all "dark" as here. Perhaps a disambiguation or a little additional explanation would help all those non-English languages that make use of forestierisms from what is now the lingua franca of the planet. Thanks to those who would like to try. 151.95.163.237 (talk) 17:31, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

The article needs to better explain better whom it is who would be considered a child groomer and who would not.

Reading the article again after many years, I noticed the article currently refers to "child groomers" but leaves out an important detail as to who these people are. As far as I know we generally do not use the term to refer to teenagers who try to another teen of similar age (or close age) to to be open to having sex with them at some point in the future as groomers. Nor do we refer to prepubescent children who attempted to get a same age or similar age children to be willing to engage in sexual acts with them as groomers either. Mostly, this term "child groomer" is limited to either adults or teenagers of significant age difference where the sex between them and the victim would be considered under the law as "child sexual abuse". The more informed readers could probably surmise that the "child groomer" would have to be an adult or or teenager capable of child sexual abuse of the victim. Yes, child-on-child sexual abuse is a thing, but even their I am not aware of any case of a child perpetrator in such abuse being referred to as a "child groomer" but if someone has RS's that back the use of term "child grooming" in the context of child-on-child sexual abuse or with regard to close-in-age underage teenagers, then I will drop my concern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Notcharliechaplin (talk • contribs) 07:09, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

False rumors and misconceptions

@Denaar: I included an excerpt in the the "History" section describing false accusations of child grooming, but this excerpt was removed; if this excerpt can't be included there, should this topic be mentioned elsewhere in the article? Jarble (talk) 03:18, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I suggested changing the title of the article you quoted to Groomer (slur), because my reading of the article was the topic was "using the word Groomer to accuse or imply LGBT people are pedophiles" and was told I was incorrect, that is not the topic at all. The consensus is that the article is about the conspiracy that you can indoctrinate someone into being LGBT through means like drag queen story hours or sex education, which is why Anita Bryant is on the page (she opposed legislation requiring non-discrimination against homosexual teachers even in private Christian schools, where she said they would recruit children to become homosexual). I'd personally call the article homosexual recruitment and make "groomer rhetoric of the 2020's" a sub-section of that, but the consensus is opposed to any changes. That's why it doesn't belong here - because this article is about Child Sexual Abuse, not indoctrination. Denaar (talk) 05:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

"Grooming" means preparing someone for something. Because there is no "Main" (WP:BROAD) grooming article, every use of the term applied to people (even adults and teenagers) ends up on this page, and I'm slowly moving the information to separate articles so this one can focus on it's original topic as it was created: "Nonviolent Methods that child sexual abusers use to ensure compliance with child sexual abuse", which is how the term is used in psychology and counseling. I also updated the disambiguation page to have a section on "Grooming as indoctrination or recruitment" to catch all the ways the word grooming is used for gangs, terrorists, sexual exploitation of teenagers and adults, etc. Long term, I think there are some duplicates, as well as additional topics that need to be their own articles. Denaar (talk) 18:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Age of consent

A previous version of the article, without sources, defined child as someone under the age of consent. That does not seem to be correct; for example, the Canadian law cited later in the article says that for the purposes of the law, a "child means a person who is or appears to be under the age of eighteen years." The age of consent in Canada is usually 16. (t · c) buidhe 04:49, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Duplicate article

User:Denaar, without getting consesus for it, has created another article titled "Grooming" whose content is almost entirely about what is called "grooming" of children.

Where are the sources that confirm that there are two separate topics here that can support two wikipedia articles?

I don't think that "grooming" the word can support a Wikipedia article because we are not a dictionary and I don't see any sources that cover both, say, "grooming" someone to join an armed group versus the original use of child sexual "grooming" that is the topic of this article (see the requirements at Wikipedia:Broad-concept_article#Approaches) (t · c) buidhe 16:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 24 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 22:28, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

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Child grooming → Sexual grooming – Grooming means to prepare someone/something for a purpose, which is why it covers things like "getting ready in the morning" and "cleaning and saddling horses" all the way to "mentoring someone for a leadership position. However, it's also used to describe a type of child sexual abuse. Most sources use grooming on it's own, sexual grooming is second most likely, then child sexual grooming is the third - but child grooming is rarer. The other problem with using the word "child" when there isn't an established meaning of "child grooming" is that there are arguments about what child means - the original meaning from the 80's of prepubescent children? Are Adolescents included or not? If it's a minor; what does that mean when some places allow 16 year olds to consent to sexual relationships and others use 18? As a representative discussion, this is a NY Times article from 2021 [1] you'll find it describes sexual grooming for children, adolescents, and even adults - and that's how it's described just about everywhere today. If we make a separate "Sexual Grooming" it would duplicate "Child Grooming" in 90% of it's content, so it makes more sense to use "Sexual Grooming" as the article scope. Denaar (talk) 00:27, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support. "Sexual grooming" does seem clearer and a better representation of the focus of the article than "child grooming". ╠╣uw [talk] 11:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
• How about child sexual grooming instead ,, since social media is all aflutter about Chris Evans "grooming" a 26 year old right now, and how in the UK Russell Brand is also being accused of it for someone over the age of consent (which isn't grooming in the UK as it is over the age of consent? or so the victim seems to say), though it doesn't work too well with the attacks in mass media concerning gender identity, sexual identity, and grooming, as sex is cognate with gender; ? child sexual congressional grooming ? -- 67.70.25.175 (talk) 04:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

  We have articles on those topics already, if you check the disambiguation page, including use of Groomer as a Slur word in multiple contexts. It's why I'm also proposing grooming be turned into a WP:BROAD article - the disambiguation page isn't working to help people find the topics they want, they just keep stuffing everything on this page. Denaar (talk) 12:28, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not a dictionary and the content of this article should be determined by scholarly sources that are about this topic, not media usage of the word "grooming". (t · c) buidhe 16:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 18:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. The meaning of the current title is actually perfectly innocuous (or should be) and doesn't mean what the article thinks it means. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:31, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

  Hard agree. I would expect it to deal with a parent doing their child's hair. Red Slash 22:08, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

• Strong support as proposed. If any rescoping is needed, rescope it. Red Slash 22:08, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.