Talk:Styx

More Information

An interesting article purports to have more information:

Another account by the Greek geographer Pausanias (110 - 180) reported that the river could ruin crystal, pottery and bronze. "(The) only thing able to resist corrosion is the hoof of a mule or horse," he wrote.

Now called Mavroneri, "Black Water," the Styx originates in the high mountains of Achaia, Greece. Its cold waters cascade over a limestone crag to form the second highest waterfall in Greece.

These claims need to be checked out and addressed in the article. JKeck (talk) 21:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

In Plato's Phaedo 112E - 114D the Styx is a lake, not a river, and the Kokytos flows into it. There will be plenty of other variants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.106.137 (talk) 11:47, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Styx actually is Krokstadelva in Norway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:FE0:C700:2:687C:E90D:DA70:B07D (talk) 21:20, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Coins

I seem to remember that the tradition of placing coins on the eyes of the dead (not only in the mouth) was also to pay Charon for the ferry trip, or am I misremembering? Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 21:52, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

It's used in movies. 31.149.95.200 (talk) 12:09, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Divine Comedy Illustrations

In the Divine Comedy, the Acheron is the river that Charon helps dead souls cross, not the Styx (Virgil says the same in the Aeneid). As such, aren't the Divine Comedy illustrations misleading to include here?

Split content to separate pages for the river and the deity

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus to not split the article. The page has now been rewritten, dealing with both the goddess and the river. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

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This page covers two separate concepts in Wikdata Styx (Q8843276) and Styx (Q542758). To create correct mappings to Wikidata the content should be split accordingly.20:13, 24 January 2023 (UTC) Saarik (talk) 20:13, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Support. I think that makes sense, I would say for page names maybe Styx or River Styx as the main topic and Styx (nymph) for the dab. -Relinus (talk) 03:13, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Lean oppose. I don't see any advantage to splitting the article solely in order to have Wikidata "create correct mappings", whatever that means. Both proposed topics—the river and the goddess of the river—are inextricably intertwined, and the latter article would be very short: it only accounts for a single paragraph in the current article. The same could be said of other articles about rivers and river gods occurring in Greek mythology—separating such closely related topics does not make a lot of sense to me. P Aculeius (talk) 13:49, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose The river and the deity are not really "separate" from each other. Paul August ☎ 19:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose – I agree with P Aculeius and Paul August. We already have too many pages on minor Greek mythological figures which should really be merged into other articles; we shouldn't be making more. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 18:28, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I would hardly call Styx a minor Greek mythological figure. Paul August ☎ 13:48, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, seems like the nymph and the river are interconnected, so maybe that wouldn't be necessary. I think one page can sufficiently cover both. Piccco (talk) 19:20, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What should be the target for the term "Stix River"?

The following discussion was copied from User talk:Clarityfiend#Can we discuss this please? Other editor's comments are welcome anywhere below the copied text. Paul August ☎ 18:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Start of copied text:

You changed the redirect Styx River from Styx to a section of that article. I disagree with this change so I reverted you. You then reinstated your change with no discussion. Although when another editor reverts your edit, the standard procedure, per WP:BRD, is to discuss the proposed changes, before making further edits. So can we please discuss your proposed change?

Here's my view. In Greek mythology Styx (just like Oceanus) is a single thing which happens to be both a deity and a river, rather than two different things with the same name. So in Greek mythology "Styx River" and "Styx" refer to exactly the same thing, and whether someone enters "Styx River" or just "Styx" they should arrive at exactly the same place. Just because our article Styx happens to have a section which focuses on Styx as a river doesn't mean that the rest of the article doesn't also apply to the Styx River (or the River Styx for that matter). I don't want to participate in an edit war by reverting your edit again (something your revert of my revert unfortunately started). So I think you should undo your edit, at least until we can arrive at a consensus possibly including other editors.

Thanks, and best regards Paul August ☎ 15:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Paul August: Styx RIVER refers to the river aspect of the goddess, so why shouldn't the redirect be to the river section? This is in full agreement with WP:SURPRISE. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:47, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

No, as I tried to explain above, "Styx River" does not just refer to the river aspect of the goddess. In this context "Styx River" = "Styx", they are synonyms, they both refer to the same thing, a river who is a goddess and a goddess who is a river. Conceivably the article could be named "Styx River" instead of "Styx". So just as "Styx" directs to the whole article and not just a subsection, so should "Styx River". They are identical things. The reader should not be misled as you seem to have been into thinking that "Styx River" only refers to that section of the article. Paul August ☎ 13:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Not to the average reader, nor even to a semi-knowledgeable reader such as myself. The goddess is named Styx, never Styx River. Clarityfiend (talk) 14:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. The goddess is a river, and Styx River is another name for the goddess just like the River Styx is. Paul August ☎ 15:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Prove it. Show me a reliable source that says that "Styx River" or the more common "River Styx" is the name of the goddess, not the river. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

The river and the goddess are the same thing. Paul August ☎ 23:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

That is not the claim I am questioning. Show me a source that states one of the goddess's names is "River Styx" or "Styx River". Otherwise, you have no grounds. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Since you don't dispute that the river and god are the same thing, then you can't dispute that whatever is true of one is true of the other. The conclusion follows from the following logical syllogism:

A = B.

B is C.

Therefore, A is C.

Paul August ☎ 12:19, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

That logic does not apply here. We're talking about terminology. When I see River Styx or Styx River, I expect to find something about the way to Hades, Charon and the coin fare. I do not expect a goddess. So, unless you can show that River is part of the goddess's name, as I have stated before, SURPRISE applies here. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Also, now that I think about it, A doesn't even equal B. One aspect of an entity doesn't equal another. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

So now you do claim that the goddess and the river are two different things? Paul August ☎ 23:28, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

No, I said two different aspects. For example, Joe Biden is a Democrat and President of the United States. Are Democrat and POTUS equal? Clarityfiend (talk) 23:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying that the aspects goddessness and riverness are the same thing, obviously not. I'm saying that goddessness and riverness are two different aspects of the same thing. And that thing is the thing which our article names as "Styx" but which is also named, for example, the River Styx, which therefore redirects to Styx. Paul August ☎ 23:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Of course you said they were the same thing. What else could A = B mean (also B is C)? 99.99% of readers do not expect a goddess when they click on River Styx, no SURPRISE. (Aside: In fact, I'm wondering if the article shouldn't be revamped and renamed River Styx, since it appears to me that the river, not the goddess, is the WP:primary topic.) Why can't you accept that? If you are unable to do so, I suggest you ask for a WP:third opinion. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:12, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Also note that Styx River (disambiguation) states that the Styx is a river only; no mention of the goddess, strongly implying that (1) River Styx is not her name (still waiting for sources saying otherwise), and (2) the river, not the goddess, is far, far better known, and hence the primary topic. I may very well propose moving the page. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:32, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, like you, many readers will not know that the mythological River Styx (or the less common Styx River) was a goddess. All the more reason why the target for "River Styx" (or "Styx River") should be our article on the mythological river goddess (which is currently at "Styx", as it should be since "Styx" is by far the more common name for the river goddess, if you think otherwise you are welcome to propose a move, although I don't think that such a proposal stands much chance of succeeding, see below). Having "River Styx" (or "Styx River") direct to the section "Styx:Mythology:River" is misleading since the River Styx was more than just a river, and since a section redirect implies that only that section applies, which is simply not true in this case. For example, an important fact about the River Styx (as the previous section "Styx:Mythology:Oath of the gods" discusses at length) is that the river was the "oath of the gods". Redirecting to "Mythology:River" would cause the reader to infer that river had nothing to do with oath taking and didn't really apply to the river. And isn't it obvious that the section "The Arcadian Styx" also applies to the river (don't you agree?) In point of fact everything in this article applies to the river. So any redirect targets for the mythological river need to be the entire article not a subsection.

That Styx River (disambiguation) failed to mention that the river was also a goddess (I've now fixed that) does not imply anything other than the fact that Wikipedia articles are not always perfect. Since the goddess Styx was also a river she was often referred to as "the river Styx", and and since the river Styx became such a famous river, "River Styx" came to be used as a proper noun. So the "River Styx" is another name for the river goddess, more commonly called simply "Styx". As for sources which say that the goddess and the river are the same thing see any of the sources cited in the second note of Styx : "Grimal, s.v. Styx; Tripp, s.v. Styx; Parada, s.v. Styx; Smith, s.v. Styx." Or look at any general reference work. Your saying that "the river, not the goddess, is far, far better known" makes no sense since the river and the goddess are the same thing. What would make more sense, and perhaps this is what you meant, is that the name "River Styx" is the more common name for the river goddess than "Styx". But in that case I think you are wrong. And this is born out by the fact that, for example, the reference works cited just above all have entries for the river goddess under the heading "Styx" rather than "River Styx". And, for what it's worth, I can tell you that I've been doing research in this topic for a long time and every reference (as far as I can remember) I've ever looked at (and I've looked at many dozens over the years) all commonly refer to the river goddess simply as "Styx".

Let me point out a few more things. In all of what I've said above I've been treating the terms "River Styx" and "Styx River" identically, since, in a mythological context, both terms obviously refer to the same thing. And so I've been assuming that, in particular, wherever we redirect those terms, they should be the same place. Furthermore, since every argument you've given for redirecting "River Styx" to "Styx:Mythology:River", applies equally to "River Styx" (don't you agree?), I've also been assuming that you think the same thing. But notice that River Styx redirects to Styx. So was leaving "River Styx" as a redirect to Styx an oversight on you part? Or do you think we should be treating the terms somewhat differently? However, I'm now wondering if I was wrong. While "Styx River" certainly refers (in a mythological context) to the same thing as the term "River Styx", the latter is by far more common. So uncommon in fact that in a general context "River Styx" may, in fact, more commonly refer to one of the several geographical rivers listed at Styx River (disambiguation) than Styx itself. Thus I'm now wondering if the term should instead redirect there? Or rather that we should move Styx River (disambiguation) to Styx River. What do you think about this?

I've tried above to address all the concerns you've raised. I hope you find what I've said persuasive. In any case, I've carefully considered all that you've said and I still don't agree with your proposed change, and I can't think of anything particularly relevant left for me to say. So, since so far you are the only editor in favor of this change there is obviously no consensus in support of it. Therefore I'm going to revert your change, and copy this discussion to Talk:Styx, to see if other editors have any thoughts about all this.

Regards, Paul August ☎ 18:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

End of copied text Paul August ☎ 18:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

If we do keep "Styx River" as a redirect to this page, then in my view it would make sense to have it pointing to the top of the article, rather than the single section "River". As pointed out above, other parts of the article are very much relevant to the Styx as a river, especially the section "The Arcadian Styx". I don't think the argument on the basis of SURPRISE really holds up; the first sentence of the article directly states that Styx "is a goddess and river of the Underworld", so I don't really see what the reader would be surprised by there. In fact, it would seem to me that a reader might be more confused if they were redirected to the section "River", as it may lead them to think that only the content in that section is relevant to the Styx as a river, when that isn't the case. – Michael Aurel (talk) 10:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

@Paul August: I am going to ask for a WP:THIRDOPINION, since we are deadlocked. After much thought, I have come up with a radical but logical proposal.

Proposal

• The current article be moved to River Styx and rewritten to emphasize the mythological river and de-emphasize the goddess, as the river is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC
• Styx (band) be moved to Styx, as it is far better known than an obscure goddess, with a hatnote to the goddess's section in River Styx
• (optional) Styx River (disambiguation) be moved to Styx River Clarityfiend (talk) 20:25, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Clarityfiend: Thank you for trying to encourage other editors to participate in this discussion and help resolve this dispute. However a more appropriate process would be Wikipedia:Requested moves. You might want to consider converting this "proposal" into a requested move as explained at WP:RSPM. Regards, Paul August ☎ 22:03, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose the first proposal. The first proposal makes no sense, since it seems to assume that the mythological river and mythological goddess are two different things. However, "River Styx" and "Styx" are two names for exactly the same thing, i.e the Greek underworld river goddess. The article could be named either of these, but "Styx" is by far the more common name. And since the river and the goddess are the same thing, it's logically impossible for the article to emphasize (or de-emphasize) one over the other. Paul August ☎ 21:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose the second proposal, the river goddess is clearly more famous than the band. Paul August ☎ 21:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose all proposals. (Called via WT:CGR.) The primary topic is the Styx, which is given an entry under Styx in authoritative reference sources such as OCD⁴. I prefer River Styx over Styx River; River Styx outnumbers Styx River some 11.7 thousand to 1.42 thousand on Google Scholar, with the latter's first results largely relating to hydrology along the Styx River (Canterbury) in New Zealand. That there are many rivers Styx indicates need for a disambiguation page; that the primary topic is the mythological one means the page without (disambiguation) needs to redirect here. Styx refers also to the goddess, a river in Greece, and the underworld river (which is not the only boundary reported in the sources); that they are all treated here is best. Ifly6 (talk) 22:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose all as formulated. To the extent that it might be possible to separate the river in mythology from the goddess, it has natural disambiguation as River Styx (and this is the usual order in English, outside of American usage, and prevails in mythological contexts). "Styx" should remain an article about the goddess, and even if the river could be discussed separately, it would still be properly discussed in the article about the goddess. The band is most certainly not primary, and under no circumstances should it be moved from its present title. The goddess is primary for the undisambiguated name. P Aculeius (talk) 01:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. With respect to the first proposal, "Styx" is undoubtedly far more common than "River Styx" in reference to the subject of this article (check the entry for Styx in any major reference work on Greek mythology, for instance). I don't really understand what you mean when you state that the mythological river, rather than the goddess, is the primary topic; they can't really be meaningfully separated, and are covered by one article (as they should be, in my opinion). Regarding the second proposal, the mythological Styx seems to me to be the primary topic here, and it certainly far outstrips the band in terms of long-term significance. – Michael Aurel (talk) 10:06, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. I disagree that the band is lesser known than the river/goddess. Most people don't care much about Greek mythology these days, while there are a bunch of fans of the band. I know there's some tool to figure out pageviews. How many are there for the band compared to this article (which would include those looking for the band)? I don't think there is a primary topic for Styx, so perhaps Styx (disambiguation) should be moved to Styx and the current article to Styx (mythology)? Clarityfiend (talk) 02:26, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Dictionaries place the river (which is the same as the goddess) as the definition of Styx. It's the primary topic. Ifly6 (talk) 02:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)