Talk:Tavern

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Oldest building...oldest tavern...

The article says:

"The White Horse Tavern (Rhode Island) is most likely the Tavern housed in the oldest building."

Surely this is in the US only? In Britain we have pubs considerably older than the entire US - buildings and all. There's no contest for oldest pub. It may not be UK, it could be somewhere else in Europe. But it most certainly is not the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.21.64 (talk) 21:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Example of an older British pub: the ferryboat in St Ives, dating back to 1100, replacing an earlier pub on the same site recorded as far back as 560AD. There are loads of 12th and 13th century pubs, some of them built to house workmen building local churches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.163.124 (talk) 22:31, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop New Orleans

Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop's claim to being the oldest bar in the U.S. is a fairly recent claim. At one time they claimed to be "the oldest building to house a bar." Supposedly, it was a blacksmith shop in the years Jean Lafitte was active in New Orleans (1810 - 1815) - it never was, actually, but even if the legend were true it wouldn't have both a blacksmith shop AND a bar. In the 1842 City Directory there were two dentists by the names of GUIROUD and VALENCOURT practicing in the building http://files.usgwarchives.net/la/orleans/history/directory/1842ad-a.txt - the address at the time was 221 Bourbon Street. (The numbering system in New Oreans was changed in the late 1800's; the current address is 941 Bourbon.)

The Sanborn Street Rate Slips reveal that in 1897 it was a combination oyster shop and cobbler shop. http://nutrias.org/info/louinfo/1897/bourbonl.htm While it's possible that liquor was served in the oyster shop it's highly unlikely as the property is not large enough for oysters, shoes AND bar supplies.

The building itself is what is known as a "Commercial Cottage" - the room where the actual serving bar, itself, is today sits directly on the ground while 3/4 of the room are raised up on three sides of it. The one room would have been commercial space and three rooms raised around it would have been living quarters. A 1938 architectural rendering of the building http://www.angelfire.com/la3/gumbo_ya_ya/images/Lafittes_Plan.jpeg shows that one half of the first floor of the building was residential and one half was commercial. In 1897 either the oyster seller or the cobbler would have operated in the courtyard and the other would have been inside the inner commercial space. There are many of these buildings in and around New Orleans - very typical of the late Colonial and early Federal period. It's true that many of these were grog shops and it's possible that the "Blacksmith Shop" served that purpose at one time or another, but there is no record of it - no liquor licenses, no permits to run a saloon, tavern, cabaret or otherwise in City Council records, tax records or in the Notarial Archives. Mrbentley (talk) 12:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Undue?

Is the large relative coverage of the USA compared to all other nations in this article not a fine example of WP:UNDUE? If it is, what would be the appropriate action? Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:45, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the section about North America to a separate article Taverns in North America. It turns out the section about North America was twice as long as the rest of the article. JIP | Talk 23:01, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of notable taverns

Notable taverns/inns -- moved from article space

==Notable taverns/inns==

===USA===

Catamount Tavern, birthplace of the Green Mountain Boys
City Tavern oldest and last remaining, Federal-period tavern in Washington D.C. and home of City Tavern Club in Georgetown
Fraunces Tavern, meeting place of the Sons of Liberty
Gadsby's Tavern, historic cultural center of Alexandria, Virginia
Green Dragon Tavern, meeting place of the Sons of Liberty
Grinder's Stand, tavern where Meriwether Lewis died in Lewis County, Tennessee
Little Bohemia Lodge, inn of the shootout, between bank robber John Dillinger and the FBI, in Manitowish Waters, Wisconsin
Rutledge Tavern, frontier meeting place of Abraham Lincoln's youth in New Salem, Illinois
Suter's Tavern, Federal-period tavern in Georgetown, Washington D.C.
Tun Tavern, birthplace of U.S. Marine Corps
Wayside Inn, America's oldest operating hotel, which started as Howe's Tavern in Sudbury, Massachusetts
Windsor Tavern, birthplace of Vermont's first constitutional government

I have moved the above here because it is an editorial POV list. If such a list is to exist in article space then each entry needs reliable third party sources (by that I mean sources not connected with the tavern) that say it is notable for some reason. See for example the section History of Rugby Union#Notable games for such a list with third party reliable sources. -- PBS (talk) 10:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"In the colonial era, almost three-fourths of the taverns were operated by women"

the source of this info is questionable. I have found several references in scholarly articles to as many as 40% of taverns being run by women at a particular time in a particular city, but aside from the ghost stories website that is used here as a source, I have never seen any data that suggests the numbers would be that high. I am in favor of deleting the comment or modifying it to reflect that women tavernkeepers were very common in colonial America, but the specific data needs to be proven if it is going to appear in an article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjaminfreyart (talk • contribs) 01:38, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. the text badly garbles the source which itself is badly written. footnote = As one time, almost three-quarters of the taverns and inns in New England were ran by women. the source is a private blog not a RS. Rjensen (talk) 01:54, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Still lacking proof

Racist and sexist statements like " Irish and German influences contributed to the violence,[clarification needed] as did racial and ethnic prejudice.[citation needed] Sexual assaults against women increased because women were working in factories and more exposed to these dangers in the city. (Male-on-male violence was common inside the tavern; rapes happened outside or around the back.)[citation needed] " are still not proven. Erased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:46:1A58:EF28:3803:4BEC:818A:8BA0 (talk) 23:12, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

opening section

This seems very dubious. Inns differ from Taverns. In that they offer Lodging. Is there any evidence that there was a time when they did not offer wine? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.101.123 (talk) 17:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wowsers?

The Australia section doesn't mention anything to do with Taverns. It appears to me as though somebody added text to the wrong article here. Or, perhaps this section is missing some important text which would add context.