Talk:The King of Queens

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Writing Style[edit]

The descriptions of the characters read as if they were written by a seventh grader. I would rewrite the section, but I only know of the show in passing. Any suggestions? SpartanMurph117 (talk) 02:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Plot[edit]

The plot section needs to be updated, it seems to apply to season 2?

    • I dont agree with the end joke being tangentially related to the subject of the show. I have been watching KOQ for many years over and over. The endjoke is in my opinion always in relation to the subject of the show. I think this needs to be reviewed or edited at least to reflect the reality. This information is incorrect.Eurocanna (talk) 18:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why does it say that Doug is not attacted to other women? He constantly is. His hairdresser, Carrie's nail girl, all the women he dreamt about, a woman that him and Deacon oogle at Cooper's one time, etc etc. Alot of plots mention Doug being attracted to one woman or another. He never had an affair or anything like that but he did find other women attractive. I don't get the reference in the original post... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.158.221 (talk) 21:28, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fansites?[edit]

Does anybody know KoQ fansites? --84.141.33.183 17:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Broadcasters[edit]

The list of broadcasting stations in North America is currently "CBS, 38, and the newDEW." Now I don't know who put this on, but the CW is missing (or it might be a typo represented in the newDEW). Either way, I have never heard of the newDEW, and I am pretty sure "38" is not a channel. It may be the numerical equivalent to a broadcast or cable channel in a restricted market (like how FOX is channel 6 in Milwaukee and channel 13 in Chicago). Either way, I don't believe "38" should be on there.

I'm pretty sure 38 is TV35 from Boston, WSBK. Madlobster 21:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Minor characters[edit]

Kelly Palmer[edit]

Why have Kelly as a minor character,when her parting from deacon prety much dominates a great chunk of the series,and all I would not consider her a minor character,she is seen more then less and sometimes does strongly figure in an episode (the taking of the god-fathers,the departure to the funeral of her great aunt), she is more or less similar to Holly,so I would rather sujest puting her down as a recuring character. New Babylon

I would most definitely agree. I didn't really look to the bottom of the page to see if Kelly is a minor character or not, but if it has her as one, please edit that. I've seen almost all the episodes thus far and Kelly is NOT a minor character. She is not only Deacon's wife but Carrie's best friend. She is in no way a minor character on this show. Tonetare 22:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Supervisor O´Boyle[edit]

In season 1, episode 18 "White Collar" the role of supervisor O´Boyle is acted by another actor, I don´t know his name. You can see at minute 2:30 (e.g. here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp_GDrzQPPo&feature=related) that Doug calls this guy supervisor O´Boyle. --VierMalK (talk) 10:59, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the name of that character is Supervisor "Jack" O'Boyle (played by John F. O'Donohue). The character played by Sam McMurray is named Supervisor "Patrick" O'Boyle. I don't know if they are supposed to be two totally different characters? Or if it's the same character recast with a new actor? In any event, I added this information into the article. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:15, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Uncredited actor[edit]

Anyone know the name of the actor who has played multiple roles on KoQ? The characters he plays include: Doug's one football coach, a massage therapist, the delivery guy @ the place with the 'lemon ices', the movie theater usher, the movie theater manager, and so much more. His name never appears in the credits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.108.123 (talk) 05:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Forget it. It's "Mookie Barker" aka Jim Myers. Go to www.mookiebarker.com to see his work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.108.123 (talk) 06:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here is his Wikipedia article: Mookie Barker. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
By the way, he's not uncredited. He typically gets his name in the credits. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:45, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Update. May 24, 2021. It looks like his article was deleted, way back in 2016: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mookie Barker. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:21, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur Spooner[edit]

played by Jerry Stiller - Arthur, Carrie's very ridiculous father, is the classic oddball of the family who lives in the basement of the Heffernan house because he accidentally set fire to his own home in the pilot episode. Arthur often gets fierce and throws a tantrums for the craziest reasons. Arthur is often seen causing regular chaos through his numerous antics and getting on Doug's bad side. He is a bigmouth and braggart who loves bending the truth and this gets him into trouble quite frequently. I Hate Him. Sometimes he is referred to as "The Old".

I´m new to wikipedia and furthermore im not a native english speaker, but i believe that the term "I Hate him." in the discription of Arthur Spooner seems rather wrong in a encylopedia. It would be very lovely if somebody updates the article. Thank You—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.131.126.50 (talk • contribs) , 18:46 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the vandalism you refer to. In the future, Be bold and just click on the "edit this page" tab and remove it. All positive contributions are encouraged and welcomed here.--WilliamThweatt 21:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

lol, sorry but that sounds so goofy. be bold. You're bold because you've corrected an error on wikipedia?!

Uh, click on the wikilink...it's a reference to the Wikipedia guideline encouraging newbies to take the initiative in correcting/expanding/updating articles here.--WilliamThweatt 21:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not making fun of you and was "uh" really called for? I am making fun of whoever created that term for wikipedia. Why not just be helpful and make contributions. What's with the be bold business. lol.

Because 'Be bold!' sounds better than 'Don't be shy!' :P LinaMishima 13:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lina, it seems like you and that user have a good, friendly teasing relationship. that's nice. lol at be shy. I saw the warning and all

Oh very funny Lina. But as a matter of fact, when you think about it don't be shy to make contribution actually does sound a lot better than don't be bold. so there. :P lol 65.31.100.170 12:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then why not try suggesting the change on the talk page for WP:BOLD? Or create an article WP:NOSHY? If you think it's more helpful for people, then others probably will too (well, in this case, at least). Wikipedia is about the community helping to improve itself, and you're a part of that, too! LinaMishima 13:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lina, I guess we're really on a tangent here from Arthur Spooner, eh? lol. But yes, I have read what you said and I have offered that suggestion on the discussion page of be bold. Hope they change it as be shy sounds much better. You never actually mentioned what you think. I bet you think don't be shy DOES sound better than be bold when you actually thought about it. 65.31.100.170 15:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did, after all, create the essay Wikipedia:Don't be shy ;). You can discuss that article on it's own talk page - back to the topic, people :P LinaMishima 15:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Help[edit]

Could somebody help with identifying the minor characters' roles in the show? It would be great if someone could also add more sections and more information to put in those sections. Socom49 15:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I love the Homer Simpson addtion and recent edits. That is so funny. And he does remind me of Homer now that I think of it. good job.

Last Season?[edit]

Where did this business about this being the show's last season come from? Has there been any official word on this? Eenu 04:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe it is the last season, however I know that the show has not renewed a contract with CBS to continue the show. Socom49 13:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Spinoff?[edit]

Was this a spinoff of everybody loves reymond? I remember the character of Doug being in it.

No, Kevin James called Kevin in ELR. It's a spinoff, but much better --84.141.16.31 17:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How is this show a spinoff of Everybody Loves Raymond?

It's not, but The King of Queens is set in the same world as Everybody Loves Raymond, as evidenced by a few episodes that guest starred the ELR family. First instance was Season 1 Ep 9. [1] -D. Wu 00:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The 'world' is called New York. Even Ally MacBeal met with the lawyers from Practice, but that doesn't make it a spin off. --134.95.82.119 11:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Doug Hefferman is also a secondary character in Everybody Loves Raymond.
His character on ELR is NOT named Doug Hefferman. The characters name is Kevin. KoQ is not a spinoff. Is Spin City a spinoff of Back to the Future? It has the same person?
"Doug Hefferman" IS a character on ELR. Kevin James played both "Kevin" and "Doug" on ELR. And the "Doug Hefferman on ELR even works for IPS, so I'm pretty sure it's the same character. Ray, Debra, and Marie have also appeared on KoQ, so it seems to be the same fictional world.

It might also be notable that it's in the same universe as the show Cosby. Frank Barone and Hilton Lucas (Bill Cosby) went to High School together and played on the basketball team together. 70.156.2.192 04:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

KoQ is not so much a spinoff of ELR as much is it crosses over with it. El charangista 20:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
KoQ isn't a spin-off, seeing as KoQ debuted a couple months before Doug's first appearance on ELR. Ophois (talk) 04:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

theme song[edit]

I could be wrong about this, but didn't they use some generic song for the first few seasons, and then switch to their currenct "eyes are gettin weary" song later on in the show?--Glaze 03:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I'm not sure how long they had the generic one, but there definitely was one for a while before "eyes are gettin weary". --Mixx941 05:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
They had a generic song and a plain show title for the whole first season. I know because on the first season (on dvd's) they don't use the song. PharmerJess 02:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism[edit]

I have just deleted vandalism sneaked on the very bottom the page. --Anonymous Jules Fan 17:10, 9 November 2006

And I removed the phrase 'Laura is the biggest fan.' since there was no Laura among major or minor characters, thus making that an irrellevant comment. DannyBoy2k 19:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why vandalism? Tüllner 19:52, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions for changes[edit]

I think the plot summary needs to be refined - Nicole Sullivan is no longer on the show, and when she was I don't think she ever really "looked after him." The only episode I can recall her feeling responsible for taking care of Arthur is when he tried to sell Doug and Carrie's house without them knowing about it, and even then she didn't do anything to stop him. I believe she was originally hired so Doug and Carrie could have some alone time. GauntletXG 21:40, 5 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GauntletXG (talk • contribs) 21:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Product placement[edit]

I suggest to add a chapter about the issues KoQ has with massive product placement (like Coca Cola, Unilever with Lipton, Kellogg`s, Sony, KFC, Whitecastle and so on). As I read on a website recently, KoQ is the one TV-show with the most PR in it at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.225.4.72 (talk) 17:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Emmy Awards[edit]

Can someone add a section on Emmy awards and nominations, if any? The first line of this article now says that this is an Emmy-nominated show ... but there is no more info on this. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 21:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]

I had added that and they had only been nominated once for Kevin James. :)
Bd8494 21:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where did you add that (Kevin James' one Emmy nomination) to the article? I can't find it. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 23:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Neilsen Ratings?[edit]

According to this article, it finished top of the Neilsen Ratings for four years in a row. This is completely inaccurate according to data from Neilsen, which places American Idol at the top for the past three years. Unless it is referring to a specific category is placed top in (in which case it should be listed as such), this section should be edited or deleted for inaccuracy.

Some moron changed it all to #1s so I reverted the edit...however, there was no citation for the figures originally provided Vikramsidhu 17:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The series is over :)[edit]

Season 19 can't be going ahead if 18 has just been declared the series ender.

Season 9 (2006/2007) was the final season. There was no season 18 or 19. (JosephASpadaro 13:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

references to maryland[edit]

who working on the show grew up in maryland? they talk about Glen Burnie, Ocean City, Gaithersburg, Baltimore and Towson, and a few I cant remember. 198.23.5.73 17:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Arthur mentions Bethesda, MD in one episode[reply]

The end[edit]

"Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of Kings"-William Shakespeare.

New Babylon 2 10:01, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Finale information[edit]

Why was the information that I moved from this article to the finale article reinserted? Is it really so important that it must be present in both articles? I think not. Just for clarification: I did not delete it, I just moved it to the more appropriate place (and I said so in the edit comment). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.130.4.46 (talk) 21:08, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

It should probably be combined with the Nielsen ratings section on this page.Ophois 00:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:KingofQueensTitleCard2.jpg[edit]

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BetacommandBot 04:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ayatollah Rodriguez[edit]

What episode was it in which he called? I know it was in that little beginning bit before the actual episode, but before which episode did it come? Huh (talk) 17:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I will remove that reference to him as he was never a character. He was a characterization by Doug.Gary Joseph (talk) 07:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then explain how he called the Heffernan house. Huh (talk) 20:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Doug called introducing himself thus to prove that he existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.49.236 (talk) 10:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How is that possible? I don't think he had a cell phone, and there's no way he could've called from the kitchen phone. Huh (talk) 22:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Doug does have a cell phone. It's seen multiple times throughout the series. RabidWolf (talk) 04:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even so, I found the episode. It was Furious Gorge from season seven. And there's no proof that Doug called anyway. Huh (talk) 12:15, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're wrong. In the episode it is OBVIOUS that it's Doug calling. It's the same voice for gods sakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.208.0.72 (talk) 15:30, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, that's the whole point of the joke. That the high school friend named Ayatollah Rodriguez never existed. To save face and "trick" Carrie, Doug calls her up on the phone, pretending to be Ayatollah Rodriguez. Also, Ayatollah Rodriguez is (supposedly) a high school friend of Doug, whom Doug has not seen in many years. Pretty coincidental that Ayatollah Rodriguez calls just a few seconds after Doug and Carrie have a conversation about him! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:17, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Series finale[edit]

Why didn't they produce another season of KoQ? Drop in the ratings? I just wonder... KoQ being one oft the most successful TV series its end came a bit suddenly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.54.49.219 (talk) 12:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The actors wanted new contracts and more money and CBS didn't think they were worth it so everyone decided to end the show there. --70.143.50.40 (talk) 07:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking for help writing an article about the spin-offs and crossovers of this series[edit]

I am writing an article about all of the series which are in the same shared reality as this one through spin-offs and crossovers. I could use a little help expanding the article since it is currently extremely dense and a bit jumbled with some sentence structures being extremely repetitive. I would like to be able to put this article into article space soon. Any and all help in writing the article would be appreciated, even a comment or two on the talk page would help. Please give it a read through, also please do not comment here since I do not have all of the series on my watch list. - LA @ 16:59, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Opening Sentence / Paragraph[edit]

Do we have to have all the production companies in the opening sentence paragraph to this article? This is not normal. It is also annoying and confusing. 4.240.78.166 (talk) 21:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Categories for merging[edit]

– sgeureka t•c 20:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Holly[edit]

does holly ever mention a sister? and if so was the sister gay on the show?

George Lopez

George Lopez[edit]

Any one have any idea what this section is about? I have no idea what this means... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.129.203.20 (talk) 18:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Street of Queens[edit]

The street on which the Heffernans live in Queens is never divulged. Doug and Carrie are seen with lemon ices in Corona and frolicking before the Unisphere in the opening credits. Furthermore, one episode has Arthur mentioning the proximity to Union Turnpike to the Heffernan house to Holly as she struggles to ride a bicycle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Countvincenzo (talk • contribs) 20:25, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The actual address was indeed mentioned on the show. This definitely happened in at least one episode, and probably in a few more than that. I'd have to re-watch to find out exactly which episodes, though. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:36, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They live at "3121 Aberdeen Street" in Rego Park, Queens, New York. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:19, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Potential edit war over character description[edit]

Musdan77, on this article, you first "revise" my edits by instating dead links and then because you think my usage of "smart aleck" as an edjective is ungrammatical because you're under the erroneous impression it can only be a noun [2] and here [3]. I've been trying to work around your errors and compromise rather than reverting you, as shown here [4]. But it seems you're striving for contention yet, as shown here, where you find fault with my edits on the character as "mean-spirited", as shown here [5] which struck me as completely and totally absurd. If anything "Due to his immature and selfish" at the bottom of the description is what makes the character come off as mean-spirited. 173.0.254.239 (talk) 13:03, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only mistake that I know that I made was not checking my edit, and not seeing that "smart alec" was not redirected to "Smart Alec" like "smart aleck" was. But, I have made that redirect. 2) The article was OK (not good but OK) before you added "smart aleck". It seems like you have an agenda wanting to make the characters sound worse than is already depicted in the article. The descriptions need to be as neutral as possible. 3) If you really feel strongly about adding your changes then you should find a reference that backs up your wording for the characteristics of the character(s). Thanks --Musdan77 (talk) 18:42, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have the links right above to show that you've made a slew of mistakes beyond inserting dead links into the article. Please review the links above to see all the mistakes you made. I've done a major clean-up and overhaul of the section, including the removal of "lighthearted". If you want the section to be less "mean-spirited", removing "wacky" isn't going to do that. You have to remove everything else that "mean-spirited". 173.0.254.239 (talk) 21:53, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As I've said, I don't believe I've made any other mistakes here. You may have a different view, but you would have to be specific. But it really doesn't matter at this point; what's past is past.
Normally, such a large removal of content could be problematic, but I don't have a problem with this because since there is a character article, the description on this show article shouldn't be that long, and also there are no references (still) in the section anyway. However, just having "smart alecky" as the only adjective in that sentence doesn't work, I just made a slight change there. Again, it needs to be more neutral. And, I didn't say anything about "wacky" being less "mean-spirited". Also, there's no need to put the same statement in the edit summary as well as the talk page. --Musdan77 (talk) 05:38, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ray Romano[edit]

I don't see how Ray Barone is a bigger character than Doug's parents, Spence's mom and girlfriend, and Carrie's bosses. I think if the goal is to be able to talk about the crossover aspect, that should be in another paragraph, not elevating "Ray Barone" to a higher level in the show than he deserves. Wickorama (talk) 08:07, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You make a very good point. If you want to make the changes, that would be good (though I think there should be a separate article for the characters.) --Musdan77 (talk) 01:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deacon Palmer's education[edit]

In what episode is it stated that Deacon graduated from St. John's with master's degrees in computer science and chemistry? This cannot possibly be true, as with those types of degrees, Deacon would almost definitely have not ended up trucking. 98.166.128.28 (talk) 19:36, 28 April 2014 (UTC)Bill[reply]

I have only a vague memory. But there was an episode where Deacon mentioned that he went to college. I believe he even mentioned his major. But, I don't think it was a master's degree; I am pretty sure that the implication was an undergraduate bachelor's degree. When I watched the scene, I remember thinking exactly that: why is he working as a package delivery man, if he has a college degree?. I think the thrust of the joke was that Deacon mentioned, in passing, that he went to college. And Doug acted all offended, saying something like "Well, pardon me. You went to college. You're better than me." Or a conversation to that effect. Doug was "offended" and made fun of Deacon, indicating that Deacon was pompous and arrogant, since Deacon graduated from college (and Doug did not). Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:24, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In "Separation Anxiety" (Season 3; Episode 20), Kelly's date (Bill) mentions to Kelly that he went to St. John's. He says: "Then I went to St. John's to get my master's, but I got side-tracked into this computer thing." Kelly then mentions to Bill that her husband (Deacon) also went to St. John's. This happens at about the 15:09 mark in this YouTube video (the video entitled "KING OF QUEENS SEASON 3 EPISODE 20 SEPARATION ANXIETY"). Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:45, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I know a FEDEX driver in New York with a college degree. Degrees aren't a guarantee of a good job anymore. Maybe a FEDEX driver makes more than a typical graduate nowadays, many of whom are unemployed. IDK. Wlmg (talk) 23:17, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Infobox Cast Order Proposal[edit]

I know according to the MOS:TV the cast should be listed how it is, but I feel we need to agree on an execption for many reason. I propose the cast list in order should be:

  • Kevin James
  • Leah Remini
  • Jerry Stiller
  • Victor Williams
  • Patton Oswalt
  • Nicole Sullivan
  • Gary Valentine
  • Larry Romano

When they were starting the show they were just experimenting characters in particular Lisa Rieffel, however she only lasted a few episodes at the start and was never mentioned again. Kevin, James and Jerry are known as the main 3 on the show they are in all the promos and should be listed first. The MOS has got some flaws particularly when it comes to this show. The cast list is meant to surface the entire series as a whole. Probably the biggest reason I have as to why this change should be made is because it defeats the entire purpose of the infobox. The infobox is supposed to be for key info to the casual reader. Rieffel was quite irrelevant to the rest of the show and the 'casual reader' wouldn't know that. I personally believe this is the way the list should be organised to aid the reader. If someone wants to go more in dept on the characters, then that's what the rest of the article is for. Thanks you -- JohnGormleyJG (✉) 16:35, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:TVCAST "main" cast members are determined by the series producers (not by popularity, screen time, or episode count). It wouldn't matter if Lisa Rieffel was credited in only a single episode, she would still be listed as main cast. The issue of listing order has been discussed at length, with the last discussion only a couple of months ago. Your proposal is pretty much exactly why these discussions have occurred. I see no reason why this article alone should be different to every other article. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:04, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@AussieLegend: Every TV show is different. Do you really believe that there can be a determination made to fit every single show. Of course not! That means that there needs to be exceptions that people can agree on. Remember this is all to aid the reader who is trying to gain info on the show. Im sure this method works for the majority of shows which I know about but it is impossible for it to fit everyone. In this case we both need to be honest, this listing does not work for the King of Queens and many readers I am sure would be misinformed of the series. People who read these article's don't know about the MOS. We need to try and come to a conclusion on this issue as this really doesn't work! If we are trying to advance and improve each article we can't comply on some casting experiment made in the first episode. This very same reason is why Pamela Brull is not listed in the Seinfeld cast list. She was cast as a main in the pilot but was soon dropped and replaced by a new character. However it would still make no sense to include her in the infobox as it would fool the reader. Thank you -- JohnGormleyJG (✉) 17:58, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
TV programs are not as different as you might think. Kelly Hu was only main cast in the pilot episode of The 100, Sara Gilbert was only main cast in 4 episodes of the second season of The Big Bang Theory and the main cast of The Playboy Club were only main cast for 3 episodes. That's 1 less the the episodes of this series in which Lisa Rieffel was main cast. The present wording of WP:TVCAST was specifically chosen after a lot of discussion so as to provide a consistent approach to cast lists and it does easily fit every TV series because of this. It is not up to Wikipedia editors to determine who they think should be listed as main cast. That's original research which is not permitted by policy. It's not misleading to readers to list the people who the producers credited as main cast. It's misleading to not list cast based on an editor's personal opinion. The infobox only lists the stars of a TV program. Any specifics about their roles, including the period that they were cast in a starring role, should be mentioned in the prose. This is from where the readers get most of their information.
  • "People who read these article's don't know about the MOS" - They don't need to if we provided a consistent approach to listing cast. That's the purpose of the MOS.
  • "this really doesn't work!" - That's your opinion, and I disagree. A consistent approach works fine. We don't want readers coming here wondering why somebody is not mentioned in the infobox when they're credited on-screen in a starring role.
  • "we can't comply on some casting experiment made in the first episode" - Many series shed cast at some point and often in the first season. It's not at all unususal for this to happen, or even for characters to be completely recast. Take, for example, Beth Baxter (Last Man Standing) was portrayed by Alexandra Krosney in season 1 and Amanda Fuller since season 2.
  • "This very same reason is why Pamela Brull is not listed in the Seinfeld cast list" - If that claim were true then that would be something that should be fixed, rather than used as an excuse to justify ignoring the MOS at other articles. However, based on reading the article (I've never watched the program as I find Seinfeld to be one of the most overrated TV programs no longer in production) it appears that Brull was excluded because the pilot in which she appeared was unaired. This is a similar situation to the unaired pilot for The Big Bang Theory. Neither Amanda Walsh or Iris Bahr are listed in the infobox because they only ever appeared in the unaired pilot.
Again, it's not up to us to determine who we think should be listed as starring actors. We can only report who the producers decided should be credited in starring roles. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:07, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I must admit that I strongly disagree, Kevin, Leah and Jerry are clearly the 3 main they are used for that in the cover arts. The promo pictures and the DVD cover arts. The article should represent the whole show, not just a casting error in the first season. And the infobox's purpose is to give key info. That really is not important to someone who just wants to quickly find out the main cast of the show. Sorry I forgot to mention something about Seinfeld: Pamela Brull was originally due to be a main actress in the pilot but was axed in a reshoot. Being replaced by Lee Garlington who was featured in the opening credits of the first episode. But she was only in the pilot and her character was dropped and from the second episode on wards it became Julia Louis-Dreyfus who is mentioned in the infobox. I'm not going to argue with you the other thing you said about Seinfeld because that's your business (but I think it would probably be a much more interesting discussion then the one we are having right now.) Overall I cannot see how this method would aid the reader for every single show, those are irrelevant points for the infobox but can be mentioned in the rest of the article. -- JohnGormleyJG (✉) 07:16, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We don't list cast members based on who we perceive to be the main cast members. We treat them neutrally and without undue weight given to any actor. Use of words like "casting error" makes it appear your main opposition to complying with WP:TVCAST is "I don't like it". I just don't see a valid reason to ignore the MOS. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:58, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not me saying I don't like it is just common sense. Why should Lisa Riffel be credited third when she is only in a few episodes as opposed to the 200+ others that she is not in. When Jerry Stiller is part of the lead 3. It just does not make sense for this show to rely their key piece of evidence on a casting experiment. -- JohnGormleyJG (✉) 13:16, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
She should be credited third because she was credited in third place. The position in the list has absolutely no connection to perceived importance of a particular character. It is simply, per WP:TVCAST, the original order in which actors are credited. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:53, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@AussieLegend: Regards to not seeing a valid reason, the big thing is it is very misleading! I know because I watch the show who the characters are, but in the mind of someone who has never seen the show before it is very confusing as a person who was just in a handful of episodes is suddenly 3rd in the infobox. Remember what the infobox main purpose before we go into deeper rules. Its main purpose is to give the most relevant information in a small, easy to read fact box. That is what it's primary purpose. The MOS is the guideline of how to structure in dept. As I said before it has things that cannot work for every show and we need to acknowledged as a community how to improve it in a way that it will support the main feature of the infobox more rather than smaller features. Right now the King of Queens cast list is just no way representing the show at all. Honestly it is not! We need to agree on that and try improve it in an officiant way! Just remember every rule can't work for everything, that is why I am doing this to try and improve the greater good of the article! -- JohnGormleyJG (✉) 16:57, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not at all misleading to list an actor credited in a starring role. Again, WP:TVCAST is clear on this. Cast status is not based on screen time or the number of episodes and the position in the list has absolutely no connection to perceived importance. You claim that "Kevin, Leah and Jerry are clearly the 3 main" actors, but did you note that Jerry Stiller is listed last? In season 1 episode 3 he was listed 6th while Larry Romano, who was only in the first 41 of 207 episodes, was listed 4th, yet you don't seem to have issue with that. You seem to completely misunderstand the point of the list, which is simply to list actors credited in a starring role. It has no other purpose than to identify those people. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:27, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Main Characters vs Recurring[edit]

Sara Spooner - 6 episodes in Season 1 is considered a Main Character and placed in the Infobox; when Kelly Palmer, Deacon's wife, has 40 episodes, and she is recurring? I've watched this show for years and couldn't even recall Sara Spooner. Richard "Richie" Iannucci only starred in Seasons 1-3 and is considered a Main Character. Who wrote this article!? Maineartists (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's not up to editors to decide who they think should be listed s starring or recurring. Cast are listed per WP:TVCAST. If an actor is credited as a starring character they are listed as such and, per WP:TVCAST, "Articles should reflect the entire history of a series, and as such actors remain on the list even after their departure from the series". Both Lisa Rieffel (Sarah) and Larry Romano (Richie) were credited in starring roles so they re listed as main characters. Merrin Dungey (Kelly) was never credited in a starring role. She always was just recurring. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:35, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Ridiculous (the situation, not your comment). "Starring" and "starring" have two different meanings when it comes to negotiating contracts, I guess. Whatever happened to "guest starring"? Just seems confusing and pointless to give credit to an actress for the entire series that never made it after 6 episodes; and resign another to "recurring" for multiple seasons and a major character. BTW, where are you getting your information for this show and all its seasons? Is there an online database? Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 14:00, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, it's not up to editors to decide status. That would constitute {{WP:OR|original research]]. Instead we go by what the producers of the program have decided. Guest stars are listed under "guests". We populate articles based on various reliable sources. Cast are listed according to how they are credited in episodes, per WP:TVCAST. --AussieLegend (✉) 15:52, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I get that. Read it twice, thank you. Again, where are you getting the information though? If there is not an online database showing this; than an editor who merely goes and researches this themselves by watching each episode from each season to see how the credits are listed is in fact: WP:OR. No? So I will ask again: for this article, where did you - or any other editor - get the credits for every episode / season? Can you answer that, please? All I'm asking for is that "reliable source" you mentioned. Thank you. Because I just YouTube'd one opening / closing credit sequence, and in just one episode they listed "Starring" (Kevin James thru Jerry Stiller) in the Opening, then at the end they had "Special Guest Star", "Guest Starring", "Starring" and "Co-Starring". So how can you classify all these characters into 2 categories: Main - Recurring? Finally, WP certainly does not go by WP:TVCAST in its articles. Not by the least. Just take a look at the differences between The Jeffersons, Happy Days, All in the Family, et al. Wikitables, Supporting Characters, on and on. Poor Mike Evans alone is a Main, Recurring and Guest. There's WP protocol for all this? Maineartists (talk) 22:55, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you should have read a third time. ;) As I said Cast are listed according to how they are credited in episodes, per WP:TVCAST. No, it's not OR as episodes are acceptable primary sources per WP:PRIMARY. Really, I think if you are having a problem with this it's best to raise the issue at WT:TV where you'll get a much larger audience. MOS:TV has been undergoing changes for several years and there has been a concerted effort since August 2016 to update whole sections so it's possible that there are older articles that don't comply. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:20, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Recurring characters[edit]

Per history summary and attempted edits. Recurring Character does not include "minor characters" who occasionally make an appearance from time to time. It is specific to characters that are not listed in the title credits but play a significant role within the series: i.e. Steve Urkel on Family Matters, Dr. Frasier Crane on Cheers, etc. The WP:Onus to include Flora has not been met. The article does not support inclusion. "Flora" is not expected to return; as such characters as Kelly Palmer, Janet Heffernan, and even Doug Pruzan, are. Do not reinstate unless consensus is gained. Maineartists (talk) 22:50, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • To put "recurring characters" into perspective for this particular show: Lisa Rieffel (Sara Spooner) is considered "Main" simply because she was listed in the titles credits on Season 1. Yet she only starred in the first 6 episodes. Mookie Barker appeared in 19 episodes but is not considered a "recurring" character. Rachel Dratch who played Spence's girlfriend in Seasons 5 and 6 is not considered "recurring". Bryan Cranston: Seasons 1-3 is not "recurring". Here is the complete cast members on King of Queens listed: [6]. There are hundreds of characters that could be considered vital to the storyline: relatives and friends that are far more important and yet no more important than Flora as "recurring characters" and are not listed in this article. She does not warrant inclusion. Period. Maineartists (talk) 23:10, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jerry Stillers daughter[edit]

Jerry's daughter has multiple roles in KoQ, she plays many different characters, often as a foil to Arthur. 146.199.238.43 (talk) 06:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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