Talk:Thomas Beatie

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Thomas Beatie article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans men. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.

If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBTQ+ WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

LGBTQ+ studies: Person

	LGBTQ portal This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies articles
	This article is supported by the LGBTQ+ Person task force.

Sexology and sexuality High‑importance

	Human sexuality portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

California Low‑importance

	California portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject California, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of California on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CaliforniaWikipedia:WikiProject CaliforniaTemplate:WikiProject CaliforniaCalifornia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Currah, Paisley (2008). "Expecting Bodies: The Pregnant Man and Transgender Exclusion from the Employment Non-Discrimination Act" (PDF). Women's Studies Quarterly. 36 (3/4): 330–336. ISSN 0732-1562. JSTOR 27649811.
Grigorovich, Alisa (2014). "'Pregnant with Meaning': An Analysis of Online Media Response to Thomas Beatie and his Pregnancy". In Gibson, Margaret F. (ed.). Queering Motherhood: Narrative and Theoretical Perspectives. Bradford, Ont.: Demeter Press. pp. 81–96. ISBN 978-1-9264-5245-6. JSTOR j.ctt1rrd7xf.
Halberstam, Judith (2010). "The Pregnant Man". The Velvet Light Trap. 65 (1): 77–78. doi:10.1353/vlt.0.0082. ISSN 0149-1830.
Landau, Jamie (2012). "Reproducing and Transgressing Masculinity: A Rhetorical Analysis of Women Interacting With Digital Photographs of Thomas Beatie". Women's Studies in Communication. 35 (2): 178–203. doi:10.1080/07491409.2012.724527. ISSN 0749-1409.
Murphy, Timothy F. (2010). "The Ethics of Helping Transgender Men and Women Have Children". Perspectives in Biology and Medicine. 53 (1): 46–60. doi:10.1353/pbm.0.0138. PMID 20173295.
Riggs, Damien W (2014). "What Makes a Man? Thomas Beatie, Embodiment, and 'Mundane Transphobia'". Feminism & Psychology. 24 (2): 157–171. CiteSeerX 10.1.1.1012.788. doi:10.1177/0959353514526221. ISSN 0959-3535.
Verlinden, Jasper (2012). "Transgender Bodies and Male Pregnancy: The Ethics of Radical Self-Refashioning" (PDF). In Hampf, Michaela; Snyder-Körber, MaryAnn (eds.). Machine: Bodies, Genders, Technologies. Heidelberg: Universitaetsverlag Winter. pp. 107–136. ISBN 978-3-8253-6024-5 – via ResearchGate.

A lot of issues with references

I don't have the time to put in all the work necessary, but we need some editors to go through the references and consolidate the duplicates. In some cases, the same entry uses different ref names, in other cases the name appears in a later reference and not the first instance. Easy stuff, but a bit time consuming. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 18:56, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Vague explanation

Hello,

The events seem very vague to me. Can someone explain if Thomas was born a male or female? and how did he get pregnant? etc, from biological point of view. There are lots of things talking about number of children and legacies but it does not seem very clear as to what biologically happened, and was the children from him and his wife or from something else, and did he become pregnant with his own womb, or did he implanted womb with surgery. I am not sure why these questions are not answered in simple way; the artice makes me confused :S 82.222.165.131 (talk) 13:02, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please make sure you know exactly what any statement you say means. Taken literally, the statement that Thomas was born female implies that all people are born cisgender and that there are no natural transgender people. Georgia guy (talk) 16:00, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Going by what the IP stated, this article needs to be tweaked so that our readers are not confused. The vast majority of people do not understand transgender topics, and Wikipedia is meant for the general public. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Previous name

Given that most of the sources here at least reference Beatie's prior name, Tracy LaGondino, and that all Beatie's records in modeling as a teen use said name, is there a reason it's not in the article? In this case it doesn't need to be in the lead, but at the very minimum should be somewhere in the early life section. In addition to the name being well-sourced and relevant, although Thomas is very much a male name there are a few thousand women named Thomas; this could lead to at least some degree of confusion. And although subject preferences generally shouldn't mean much, in this case Beatie certainly doesn't hide it so mentioning it once doesn't do any harm. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:44, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@The Blade of the Northern Lights - I was going to remove this, but I saw this discussion. Per MOS:NB and the notice on this talk page, a trans/non-binary person's dead name should not be on the page, dabs, redirects, etc. if they weren't notable under their dead name. He seems notable as "the pregnant man" and the article was created after his pregnancy, so shouldn't the deadname be removed and the redirect deleted? CLYDE (TALK) @PING ME! 02:18, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to second this - though I've been brought up to speed while reading this discussion as to why you want to consistently use Him - not mentioning that he was born with the name Tracy seems almost willfully confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.176.169.50 (talk) 11:07, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Given the overwhelming silence, I added it and retargeted Tracy LaGondino straight to the early life section. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:44, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've unbolded the name, given he wasn't really notable prior to transition, and given it's odd to bold something like that outside of the lead. I would also consider removing his old last name per WP:BLP's emphasis on privacy. Several published sources do mention it, but the majority don't, and his book Labor of Love doesn't seem to mention it either (the book does mention his old first name). WanderingWanda (talk) 09:00, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense, thanks. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:14, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with not including Beatie's full previous name is that, as noted above, Tracy LaGondino currently redirects here. Readers will be very confused if they run a search under that name and get to an article about what would at first appear to be a completely different person. It doesn't need to be bolded, but not including the name Tracy LaGondino at least once is, as the IP said above, almost willfully confusing. And again, Beatie freely shared this information, so (unlike many other similar cases) there's no privacy issue. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:53, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder how many people are actually searching for his previous name but... the name does get a decent number of hits on Google News, and has been published in The New York Times, so fine, I'll go ahead and re-add it. WanderingWanda (talk) 07:19, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity

This individual was often identified by his dead name due to being attacked in a political manner. He would not have been a person of notice before his transition and therefore this would be against manual of style. I am removing the mention of the deadname. AevumNova (talk) 15:58, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mm, I'd like to make the case for 1. The redirect just pointing to the top of the article. I think linking to a section is a little odd, because the whole article is about him. 2. Unbolding his former name. I don't think the name needs to be emphasized because he wasn't notable under it. And I'm just really not concerned about readers that might be searching for him under his old name, because I doubt there are that many. He was a model and stuff but not a notable one. WanderingWanda (talk) 09:42, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Revert

@Sangdeboeuf: Hi, I am wondering why you reverted changed his legal name and sex marker back to officially changed his name and sex. "Sex marker" (or "gender marker") is the recognised term for the legal record of one's sex/gender. This is a map-territory situation: the marker is intended to correspond to/model one's sex or gender, but sometimes may not. (E.g., Robert Lewis Dear was a male with a female marker due to paperwork errors, and Lauren Southern is female but obtained a male marker.) A change of legal marker doesn't effect (or necessarily reflect) a corresponding change in sex or gender. Cheers, gnu 57 01:46, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

On Wikipedia, Sex marker redirects to Sex assignment, with no information about this specific term. It's a bit jargon-ish and really only makes sense when referring to the marker on a specific document. Even then, "changed his sex on his [passport/birth certificate/driver's license]" is easily understood by the general reader. Are there published sources that cover the documentation issue? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:50, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Charge

Not sure if we should cover this or not, it seems like coverage is light and mostly from tabloidy sources. Local news. NY Daily News. WanderingWanda (talk) 09:47, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's an odd situation; it was apparently a CNN wire story, but apart from a few tabloids and blogs, I can only find a couple local news stations reporting the story, and none from the local area where Beatie actually lives. Overall it seems to be a minor event and out of proportion to its significance in a biography. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:59, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Tracy LaGondino" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Tracy LaGondino has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 15 § Tracy LaGondino until a consensus is reached. {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 21:35, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]