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A few clarifications on Raja Todar Mal

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I am the direct descendant of Todar Mal. In the article that is being circulated it mentions that we are Tandons. Well, most in the comunity associate us with Sood due to the linkage with Akbars revenue minister. However we are neither although we do know that we are Vedic Ksyhatriyas.

Various pieces of history put together point us to be more of a clan that were similar to Rajputs but had considerably got distanced later as you mus remeber that Todar Mal died much before the Rajputs gained prominence.

That explains the fact how Todar Mal was a warrior also. Our mingling with mainline khatris is a result of inetrmarriage and even if one looks at our recnt history we have been a very open,& educated family. Even my great great grandfather had compete formal education. There was no remarriage even 200 yeras back in the family.

Girls were educated and had no differentitaion. Hope this clarfes some points. sanjay —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanjay mandal (talk • contribs) 05:53, 3 February 2006

The aforementioned information is correct.

However, there's a rhetoric spread by some Agrawals claiming to be direct descendents of Raja Todar Mal and living in Moti Mahal, which is a blatant lie. Raja Todar Mal was not a Baniya / Agrawal.

I'm also the descendent of Raja Todar Mal Tandon; we use Diwan as a prefix to our name and Tandon as the surname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:201:400C:FCA5:B4A8:266F:F776:46B8 (talk) 07:55, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Report on the Census of Marwar and Mallani, vol. 1, The Castes of Marwar, Jodhpur, 1894, pp. 113-18. This report mentions that Akbar’s great minister, Todar Mal, was from the mutsadi family of the Lodha Baniyas of Rajasthan HistorianV (talk) 08:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Was Todarmal a Kayastha?

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For a list of books on the subject see 

Talk:Kayastha#Was_Raja_Todarmal_a_Kayastha?

No Raja Todarmal was a Khatri and our Nukh is Tandon and we are his direct descendants. We were rulers of Oudh or Ayodhya -- we are direcr descendants of Bhagwan Rama. It not true that Raja Todarmal was Akbar's Wazir or administrator. Akbar overthrew Raja Todarmal's Govt. and then seeing how sharp he was kept him as Nav Ratna. Soon I will post his video. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.4.141 (talk) 06:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Biography assessment rating comment

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The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Thesocialistesq/M.lesocialiste 20:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Department of redundancy department, anyone? "Todar Mal overhauled the revenue system of Akbar's Mughal empire. It was Todar Mal who overhauled the revenue system of Mughal empire." 70.128.41.214 (talk) 18:20, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject class rating

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 19:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply] 

rayaan was tadar mals father  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.158.53.148 (talk) 13:46, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced statement in References section

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The following statements appeared at the end of the References section, unsourced, and without explanation:

"It has been established that even Kayastyhas wear sacred thread (Yagnopavit). And lot of references mention Todar Mal as Kayastha."

This appears to be speculative, but please provide the sources, and integrate the statements into the text where they belong.Fconaway (talk) 23:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vandal Edits

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Intothefire (talk) 07:58, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He was a Vaishya?

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Sulivansj (talk) 20:56, 28 May 2014 (UTC)Todar Mal was a Ambastha Kayastha. His ancestors, Ambastha, still live in his Moti Mahal in Allahabad as reported by Hindustan Times. His 18th and 19th generation direct ancestors live in parts of Haryana, Delhi and Uttar Pradesh. Raja Todarmal was a Kayastha by Caste means a mix of Scribe and warrior, he was a prominent Zamindar Of gaya. We are his descendants, I really do not know are in Motimahal. He was not a Vaishya or Agarwal at all. He was a King Bhagwan Rama's descendant. Akbar overthrew his Govt and took over. We are in USA and two (sister and brother in Mumbai). Todarmal left for Pilgrimage then Multan later and settled there he did not die in Lahore. My ancestors then moved from Multan to Sindh and then to Mumbai.[reply]

Sources:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news-feed/nm19/todarmal-s-moti-mahal-decaying/article1-176112.aspxSulivansj (talk) 20:56, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Todar Mal started his career from the humble position of a writer but slowly moved up the ranks, edit war

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There has been some edit-warring over the following paragraph:

Todar Mal's father died when he was very young leaving no means of livelihood for him. Todar Mal started his career from the humble position of a writer but slowly moved up the ranks when the Afghan[1][2]/Pashtun[3][4][5] king Sher Shah Suri, committed him to the charge of building a new fort of Rohtas in Punjab with the objective of preventing Ghakkar raids and to also act as a barrier to the Mughals in the north-west.[6]
  1. ^ http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Zz0_zXPb68kC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=afghan+king+sher+shah+suri&source=bl&ots=uYUMvXaGWg&sig=LqHSfbPUNcYnu-sKT2glvOowNMM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a4hrVPvXB8yRuASRrIKYCA&ved=0CBsQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=afghan%20king%20sher%20shah%20suri&f=false
  2. ^ http://books.google.co.in/books?id=8XnaL7zPXPUC&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=afghan+king+sher+shah+suri&source=bl&ots=mmp3DtOCiG&sig=QitOZaL1AAqczIlPHtsSxd7uf0Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Q4hrVNq2DdW1uQSk7oDYDA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=afghan%20king%20sher%20shah%20suri&f=false
  3. ^ Schimmel, Annemarie; Burzine K. Waghmar (2004). The empire of the great Mughals: history, art and culture. Reaktion Books. pp. 28–29. ISBN 1-86189-185-7. Retrieved 23 August 2010.
  4. ^ Singh, Sarina; Lindsay Brown; Paul Clammer; Rodney Cocks; John Mock (2008). Pakistan & the Karakoram Highway. Vol. 7, illustrated. Lonely Planet. p. 137. ISBN 1-74104-542-8. Retrieved 23 August 2010.
  5. ^ Greenberger, Robert (2003). A Historical Atlas of Pakistan. The Rosen Publishing Group. p. 28. ISBN 0-8239-3866-2. Retrieved 23 August 2010.
  6. ^ Saiyid Khan Bahadur, Muḥammad Laṭīf (1896). Agra: Historical & Descriptive with an Account of Akbar and his court. http://books.google.com/books?id=Rk4QAAAAYAAJ: Calcutta Central Press Company. pp. 281–283. {{cite book}}: External link in |location= (help)CS1 maint: location (link)

Please could @D4iNa4: explain how the sources cited support the text.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:40, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would also help if the Google books citations were turned into regular citations, giving author, title and most important of all, page number.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:42, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I had read that before and there are some sources[1] supporting these typical lines, there are more sources supporting this theory. D4iNa4 (talk) 04:52, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
D4iNa4, you raised the issue of these citations on User talk:Xtremedood. He/she wants the citation deleted because he/she says that the sources do not support the text. You reverted him/her and left a message on his/her talk page. I assumed from this, that you believed that the sources support the text in a meaningful way.
So please explain how the sources support the text.
If the sources do not support the text, but some other sources do, then please accept the deletion of the sources, and put in sources that really do support the text.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:06, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ekdalian:[2] had added it. I had only checked the last source[3], it says "Sher Shah Sur, committed to him His first post the important charge of constructing the new fort of Rohtas..." "Sher in the Panjab, with the object of" "with the object of effectually restraining the ghakkars from their predatory inroads.." "barrier in the path of the Moghals".[4] It supports the whole information. When I looked around I had found numerous results supporting the same, that's why I reverted. Now I have removed the unused or undue information but restored most of the previous one. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:59, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Todarmal: Khatri, Kayasth or Agrawal?

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It is quite obvious that Raja Todar Mal was a Khatri. All the older sources agree. Even Agrawal and Kayasth authors state he was a Khatri.

You can see a discussion here Talk:Kayastha/Archive_3#Was_Raja_Todarmal_a_Kayastha?

Please note that Todarmal was a common name. Diwan Todarmal of Sirhind, who gave money for acquiring land for cremation of the sons of the last Sikh Guru was a Oswal Jain. There was an Agarwal Jain Sahu Todar who had renovated the Jain stupas of Mathura (Rajamalla, Jambusvami Carita).

There have been many distinguished Kayasthas (Vivekanada, Dr. Rajendra Prasad, HVR Bacchan etc) and distinguished Agrawals (Lala Lajpat Rai, Manohar Lohia, Jamnalal Bajaj etc). Raja Todar Mal, the navarata, was definitely a Khatri.

Malaiya (talk) 02:15, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting question. I went through about "10 western only" sources and I am quite sure that he was not an Agarwal. In those days Khatris and Kayasthas were the ones who were highly educated in Persian. He might be a Khatri as you say. My suggestion is that we start creating quotes from WP:RS only - no publication from the Raj era, no govt publication(since caste is politicized); we use only historians and scholars/Professors (no journalists , newspapers - they are not historians and often write things based on hearsay.) Please write an introduction about the author in a couple of words. Based on what we come up with over the next two-three weeks, we can summarize. His caste, as it stands now gives equal weight to all three - whereas there was almost no western reference that I could find that said he was an Agarwal. But I could be wrong.

We can keep the following format "quote" <citation> [author credentials]. More modern the source, the better it is. In fact, we should stick to sources after 1980 or 1990 in this case since there are so many sources. Then we can summarize for example "Most historians consider him to be a x or y etc.". Please do not use Raj era authors.

Dear User:Acharya63: The suggestion "More modern the source, the better it is." is exactly opposite of what historians use as a standard practice. The close a source is to the event, more reliable it is.
"do not use Raj era authors" I have seen this being promoted and enforced on Wikipedia (and only Wikipedia). This is the view of a very prolific wikipedia editor. I have not seen any respected historian subscribing to this view. It would be ridiculous to exclude a couple of centuries of sources. Malaiya (talk) 01:24, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Raj era sources are avoided by almost all experienced editors here, though it was possibly proposed by Sitush! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 17:42, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
=====Please add below this line for all three castes(please do not focus on only one to be fair)============
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Todar Mal was bania

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For those who are still confused: Report on the Census of Marwar and Mallani, vol. 1, The Castes of Marwar, Jodhpur, 1894, pp. 113-18. This report mentions that Akbar’s great minister, Todar Mal, was from the mutsadi family of the Lodha Baniyas of Rajasthan as per the book it is clear that todar mal was bania and Mutsadi is a position name among banias in previous times. Do not argue about it now HistorianV (talk) 08:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two probable castes mentioned in the section below are reliably sourced. You can't mention another caste in the lede citing a Raj era source; read WP:RAJ! You need to find modern scholarly work by reliable authors and add the caste in the appropriate section citing such reliable sources. Edit warring won't help! Ekdalian (talk) 12:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute on caste again

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In this edit, 2193ss has replaced:

Todar Mal was born ... in a Hindu family, considered by historians as either Agrawal Bania,[1] Khatri[2][3][4][5] or Kayastha.[6][7][8]

References

  1. ^ Dwarka Nath Gupta (1999). Socio-cultural History of an Indian Caste. Mittal Publications, New Delhi. p. 15. Two of Akbar's finance ministers - Madhu Sah and Todar Mal are said to have been Agarwals
  2. ^ Political history, 1542-1605 A.D by Ashirbadi Lal Srivastava. Shiva Lal Agarwala. 1962. p. 357,364. Archived from the original on 19 May 2021. Retrieved 5 December 2020.
  3. ^ Studies in Social Change by Krishna Swarup Mathur, B. R. K. Shukla, Banvir Singh. Ethnographic & Folk Culture Society. 1973. p. 96. Archived from the original on 19 May 2021. Retrieved 5 December 2020.
  4. ^ Sher Shah and his times by Kalika Ranjan Qanungo. Orient Longmans. 1965. p. 285. Archived from the original on 19 May 2021. Retrieved 26 September 2016.
  5. ^ Naravane, Susheila (5 September 2018). Acute Akbar versus the spirited Nur Jahan : the soul's journey through time and the who's who of rebirth. ISBN 978-1-78901-387-0. OCLC 1063603921.
  6. ^ Hugh Tinker (1990). South Asia: A Short History. University of Hawaii Press. p. 56. ISBN 978-0-824-81287-4. Retrieved 15 August 2011. kayastha.
  7. ^ Schimmel, Annemarie; Welch, Stuart Cary (1983). Anvari's Divan: A Pocket Book for Akbar. The Metropolitan Museum of Art. p. 35. ISBN 978-0-87-099331-2. Archived from the original on 23 November 2021. Retrieved 26 September 2016. Raja Todar Mal, a Hindu of the clerical Kayastha caste, was born in Oudh to a family from the Punjab.
  8. ^ Hawley, John Stratton (2010). "Seeing the Bhakti Movement". In Ray, Himanshu Prabha (ed.). Archaeology and Text: The Temple in South Asia. Oxford University Press. p. 241. ISBN 978-0-19-806096-3. All of these temples were established through a connection with the Mughal throne—either through Todar Mal, a Kayasth from Avadh, or through a member of the Kacchvaha lineage of eastern Rajasthan—and they bear a definite stylistic similarity, but it seems to owe nothing to the Dravidian south.

with

Todar Mal was born ... in a Hindu Khatri[1][2][3][4] family. The Ain-i-Akbari, a 16th-century Persian manuscript written by Abu'l-Fazl ibn Mubarak, is a reliable source that mentions Todar Mal's background. Additionally, his biography, Todarananda, also confirms his birth into a Hindu Khatri family.

As argued previously on this talk page, modern scholarly sources are much to be preferred to 16th century manuscripts and personal biographies. I ask [[User:|]] to discuss the matter here rather than edit warring on the article. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

all contemporary and primary sources are calling him khatri
His inscription from kashi also prove he was khatri of tandon subcaste
kindly remove bania and kayastha Vanshhh2891 (talk) 14:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No sorry, as per WP:NPOV, we shall keep all reliably sourced opinions. We are not here to promote a particular caste! Ekdalian (talk) 18:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Political history, 1542-1605 A.D by Ashirbadi Lal Srivastava. Shiva Lal Agarwala. 1962. p. 357,364. Archived from the original on 19 May 2021. Retrieved 5 December 2020.
  2. ^ Studies in Social Change by Krishna Swarup Mathur, B. R. K. Shukla, Banvir Singh. Ethnographic & Folk Culture Society. 1973. p. 96. Archived from the original on 19 May 2021. Retrieved 5 December 2020.
  3. ^ Sher Shah and his times by Kalika Ranjan Qanungo. Orient Longmans. 1965. p. 285. Archived from the original on 19 May 2021. Retrieved 26 September 2016.
  4. ^ Naravane, Susheila (5 September 2018). Acute Akbar versus the spirited Nur Jahan : the soul's journey through time and the who's who of rebirth. ISBN 978-1-78901-387-0. OCLC 1063603921.
He was Khatri by caste according to all contemporary sources change his caste to khatri every contemporary source including ain I akbari akbarnama even a book written under his own guidance "todarananda" , call him khatri Vanshhh2891 (talk) 13:45, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanshhh2981: Per Wikipedia reliable sources guidelines, we prefer modern scholarship over primary sources. Modern scholars have the training to look at multiple sources to better assess the truth. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most modern scholars also call him khatri only
Kindly edit this page and write him tandon khatri Vanshhh2891 (talk) 13:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to the sources presented on the page (and reproduced here), there is disagreement among modern scholars regarding his caste, and the information is presented to represent that disagreement. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:18, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
his inscription is false?
His own work where he has written himself khatri is false?
Plz I am requesting you to remove kayastha and bania Vanshhh2891 (talk) 14:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanshh2891: I do not pretend to begin to understand the politics of the Indian caste system, either today or in the 16th century, but there are clearly any number of reasons why Todar Mal may have wished to be identified as one caste when he may well have been of another. Autobiographical sources and sources controlled by the subject (his court historian) are less to be trusted than other independent sources. This is why we rely on modern scholarship (historians who have had the benefit of multiple contemporaneous sources) to sort these facts. I did not write the Wikipedia policy on reliable sources, I only know how to follow it. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 15:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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