Talk:Traditions of Pomona College

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Former good article nomineeTraditions of Pomona College was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 12, 2021Good article nomineeNot listed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on October 1, 2020.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that as one of its campus traditions, Pomona College reveres the number 47, having the bell in its clock tower chime on the 47th minute of the hour?

Alternative pole rush photos[edit]

There's https://ccdl.libraries.claremont.edu/digital/collection/ccp/id/4910/rec/47, which is pretty good and will be available in the public domain next year, and File:1923 Pomona College pole rush.jpg, which I used before I found File:1914 Pomona College pole rush.jpg, which I think is a little better since it shows someone climbing. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 06:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

McGrew citation[edit]

This is way overly picky, but just plopping it here, at some point if anyone has the "Art at the Edge of Los Angeles" book, we may want to convert the McGrew citation (which is excerpted from the book) to the book itself. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 07:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weight of extant vs. defunct traditions[edit]

I placed extant traditions first, since those are going to be the ones that I anticipate readers are going to care more about. Per WP:RECENTISM, though, I didn't want to neglect the historical ones, so there's plenty about them here, too. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 10:43, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Links for anyone who wants to expand Harvey Mudd College[edit]

Here are some additional links for HMC pranks, in addition to the current citations, if anyone wants them for HMC's article:

{{u|Sdkb}} talk 20:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(
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Pomona College
Pomona College
The Smith Clock Tower at Pomona College
The Smith Clock Tower at Pomona College
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mutual Reserve Building
  • Comment: It was a little hard to find where in these DYKs to link to the traditions page; let me know if you have suggestions about how it might be done better. Please also lmk which of the alts you find most compelling. The clock tower image is suggested if ALT2 is used, and the other image if ALT0/ALT1 is used. One note: for ALT2, per here, I'm not 100% sure that it still chimes at the 47th minute, thus the "has chimed" to be safe.

Moved to mainspace by Sdkb (talk). Self-nominated at 22:45, 5 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

  • Comment: This would be the fourth time recently an article about or relating to Pomona College has been featured in the Did you know section. The appeal is extremely limited and the repeated success of getting it through seems to be the result of the non-controversial nature of the hooks. I strongly recommend not posting this or any further ones related to Pomona College for a number of months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.35.176.194 (talk)
    I've been working on a bunch of Pomona articles lately, thus the noms. None are time-sensitive, so I'm fine with this being scheduled for further out to create some space. April 7 would be a great date for this one, since Pomona has a 4/7 day celebration every year on that date. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:32, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article is new enough and long enough. The hook facts for ALT0 and ALT2 are cited inline, the article is neutral and I detected no copyright issues. The clocktower image is appropriately licensed, but the other image should not be used as it does not appear in the article. A QPQ has been done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:33, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Cwmhiraeth: Thanks for the review! Do you have any thoughts about whether alt0/1/2 would be most interesting? Did you cross out alt1 because it was less interesting or is there some other problem with it? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 08:45, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Sdkb: I was leaving the choice of hook to the promoter. I struck ALT1 because it implied that Pomona College alumni were in general promoting the number, whereas the article suggests that the Star Trek inclusion was an individual initiative by Joe Menosky. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:11, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sailboat photo[edit]

I've learned that a photo of the sailboat prank was posted to the Pomona alumni group here, viewable here. The photo appears to be from the (presumably 1978) Metate. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:27, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I decided against adding an external image link to the sailboat photo, since I think one visual for the pranks section is enough, but if we decide otherwise in the future, the code for it would be 
{{external media|width=230px|image1=[https://web.archive.org/web/20201023090536if_/https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14606397_10154716570003413_9086262182152297440_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=2&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=y3djxrLPcnQAX9dHbiW&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=978e07ccf67e3b6af263dfbe71d4da97&oe=5FB6B50E Sailboat suspended from the ceiling of Frary Dining Hall]}}
Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:33, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

elite in lede[edit]

Putting "elite" in the opening sentence of this article seems like puffery, and adding a footnote draws further attention to it. What would the article lose by removing it altogether? In the main Pomona College article "elite" is not used on its own, still less in the opening sentence; there are mentions of acceptance rate and rankings in the third paragraph of the lede, and of reputation further down the body, but "elite" on its own is vague and inherently subjective. Is elite the intended sense? If the college's "eliteness", however defined, is relevant to some of its traditions then this can be discussed and cited for those individually. Sdkb's edit summaries here compared to here seem at odds. jnestorius(talk) 22:07, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I used the word within a string of a few words that together provide basic contextual information about Pomona; the full string is an elite liberal arts college in Claremont, California, plus the founding date. I think that having basic contextual information is useful for readers, since they shouldn't have to click through to Pomona's page in order to have a full understanding of the topic, but you're correct that they are not directly about the college's traditions, which is why I limited the description to only one parenthetical phrase within one sentence. I'd argue that each element within the string provides significant basic information: "liberal arts" describes the school's type, "Claremont" describes the location, and "elite" describes the overall character and reputation.
Of these, the character/reputation is just as significant as the location and type (Pomona arguably has far more in common with, say, Yale, which has a different type and location but similar reputation, than it does with, say, Whittier College, which has a similar location and type but different reputation), and the WP:HIGHERED REP RfC result supported this viewpoint, but with the caveat that good sourcing is needed (as for any potentially controversial claim) because reputations are obviously a lot more subjective than locations. Thus I included the reference to establish the sourcing, and I have to say that I think it's pretty unimpeachable. The Dana Goldstein New York Times article alone is enough: it's a reported news article (not opinion piece) that appeared in print in the United States' newspaper of record, and it uses the exact phrasing an elite liberal arts school to summarily describe Pomona. The other sources are also all outside experts writing for RS publications, and make similar assertions (e.g. the L.A. Times uses "prestigious", which would work fine as well).
I hope that helps clarify some of my thought process. I can share on why I reverted the other edit you pointed to if you're curious (I can see why you might think it's inconsistent with what I just said above), but that's somewhat outside of the scope here. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:31, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have a specific problem with the word "elite". You may not have to click through to the article, but you do have to click through to the references to see not just the evidence for the claim but, more fundamentally, what is meant in this instance by the word "elite". It might suggest, for example, that only rich people go there, or that it used to be restricted to WASPs. Or it might not. I don't know enough about US higher education to determine whether that specific word is the standard term for a specific tier of institution, but I would suggest a more NPOV term for an international readership would be something like "highly selective" or "highly ranked", either of which could wikilink to College and university rankings in the United States. jnestorius(talk) 22:48, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Jnestorius, that's reasonable; I'll switch it to "highly selective". {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Traditions of Pomona College/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kncny11 (talk · contribs) 20:09, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Hey there! I'm going to be taking a look at this GAN. Any section marked with a  Working tag means I haven't finished, but feel free to start making changes as soon as they appear! Kncny11 (shoot) 20:09, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Cup dropping[edit]

  • The citation linked only mentions the tradition in passing and describes none of the details.

Mascot[edit]

  • The first paragraph needs a citation
  • Her Campus is not a reliable source. It's run almost entirely by undergraduates with little experience.
  • Reference 20 (LA Times) only references Cecil in passing, and does not say what the source does

Pranks[edit]

  • The link to "The Prankster's Rules" is dead.

Defunct traditions[edit]

  • "Since then, it has largely disappeared from living memory among current students." Needs a citation
  • "and it is likewise unrecognized by most current students" needs a citation.
  • It doesn't say why the Oxy bonfire is no longer in action.
  • When is "shortly after Pomona was founded"?

 Working

References[edit]

  • All references need to be archived using this tool
  • Any reference from the LA Times needs to have "|url-access=subscription" attached
  • Citation from the Chronicle of Higher Education needs "|url-access=registration"

 Working

Final comments and verdict[edit]

I'm going to cut to the chase. Out of 84 citations, only about 18% (I counted 16, give or take) are from sources that are unaffiliated with Pomona or other related colleges. Of these, at least one doesn't say what the citation seems to suggest that it does. This lack of independent sources is concerning, as is the collection of uncited passages, such as when Claremont McKenna College is called Pomona's "main athletic and ideological rival".

Additionally, the tone and setup of the article just doesn't meet GA quality. While several traditions are mentioned, many are afforded only a sentence or two, with little acknowledgement to the tradition's notability. The section on 47 is good! It describes the relevance of the number to campus life, and to the greater world. That is not matched by the very next section, which is effectively uncited.

I'm going to have to ✗ Fail this article for the time being, and hope that it comes back later with a tighter look at the scope. Kncny11 (shoot) 20:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kncny11, thanks for taking a look at the page. This is my first GA nomination (although I have one FL under my belt), and I have been waiting several months for it to be reviewed. I read in the instructions that often nominations are brought up to standard during the review, so I anticipated that any issues identified would have a chance to be resolved, not result in an immediate fail. It seems I did underestimate how strictly some of the criteria are applied, though (and I'm not sure what happened with ref 20, I think I meant to use a different one there). Still, I am willing to work to address the issues if there is some possibility of the article passing.
To provide a quick reply on the overall setup, this page is a bit of a mix between an article and a list; there's too much detail on some traditions for it to be called "List of Pomona College traditions", but some sections are more akin to list entries (and some, like cup dropping, have very little sourcing available, so I'd be alright with removing them). How do you suggest moving forward? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:30, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Although I personally disagree, independent sources are less required for list-type articles than on prose articles, so another reviewer would be likely to cut some slack there. Although there is a reasonable concern here that a lot of detail that's not covered in secondary sources may not be encyclopedic. (t · c) buidhe 04:07, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewers are allowed to fail an article if it is a long way from meeting one of the six good article criteria. Here are my main concerns:

  • Sources.
    • "Voices" is a student blog run by the admissions office. The official website says that it is "a window into student life" and primarily for prospective students. That is not a reliable source.
    • Her Campus is run entirely by undergraduates with no adult editorial oversight. Their standards for admission are actually significantly lower than most school papers.
  • Original research/use of citations.
    • Two instances of the citation not matching up with the line in the article were already mentioned.
    • [24] doesn't mention Sequoia National Forest or Chennel Islands National Park.
    • There is no source for "the college's main athletic and ideological rival".
    • The only source for "spiblings" is a student publication at a rival college that mentions the term in passing.
    • No source specifies whether the north or south gate reads which quote.
    • Nowhere does it say that enrolling students walk south and seniors walk north.
    • [74] never mentions that the arch connects Sixth St. to Bixby Plaza.
    • No sources saying that certain songs are unrecognizable to current students.
  • Broadness and focus.
    • How exactly are you defining "tradition"? Sponsor groups, which appear to be bestowed from above by the university, are in an entirely different category than an arch that no freshmen can walk through.
    • There's no explanation for why Pomona and Pitzer share a mascot.
    • Diversion into a description of the greater sage-grouse.
    • Diversion into Harvey Mudd's prank culture.
    • The controversies of the Walker Wall are not appropriately addressed.
    • What songs are still sung by the choral program?
  • Neutrality.
    • "Often noted for its goofiness" links only to sources affiliated with Pomona College.
    • The notability of certain pranks seems confined to an article published in an alumni magazine.
    • See again "main athletic and ideological rival".
    • I'm not even going to touch whether "highly selective" is relevant to the body of the article.

It doesn't help that the only GA for a college tradition article was promoted over a decade ago (and should probably be reassessed), but in its current state, this article is nowhere near GA status. Rather than a few specific issues that can be ironed out, the main problems are intrinsic to the article. My recommendation would be to start with defining what a "tradition" is in the context of this article (how long it's been in effect, is it student-generated or passed on from admin, etc.), then looking for reliable sourcing on the matter. And, of course, making sure that if you tie a citation to something, that it actually says what you say that it does. Best of luck. Kncny11 (shoot) 18:52, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kncny11, many of those issues seem addressable, but some—particularly requiring sources unaffiliated with Pomona—don't seem surmountable. The last major scholarly history of the college was published in 1969, and until a new one comes out, writing an article on its traditions with a reasonable level of detail is going to require using non-independent sources like the Pomona College Magazine (the alumni magazine). Although I'd argue they're still reliable enough to support most factual, non-controversial claims, I understand the wariness around having the article lean so heavily on them. Regarding scope, per the lead, the article defines tradition broadly such that it includes varying levels of institutional recognition, so I don't see a major problem with some coming from students and others from the admin.
It appears that there is no way currently to get this article to GA status (and Buidhe, I very much doubt it'd be seen as within scope at FLN), so I'll just hope for better sourcing to become available in the future. Thanks again for your thorough comments, which have certainly led to some improvements. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:28, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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