Talk:Travis King

King's allegiance

@2600:4040:A68E:9B00:5D3F:7C33:DB6E:5C52 added North Korea as a second allegiance for King, which I reverted, and then they reinstated in as opposed to discussing it per WP:BRD.

So I guess I'm gonna start a discussion so this doesn't become an edit war. In my opinion, it is not in any way clear that King entered North Korea with the intent of "joining" them or pledging his allegiance to them in any way.

I'm not gonna say that we know why he escaped, but I think it is fair to say that the current working hypothesis as reported by reliable sources is that he entered North Korea to avoid punishment by the Army. Even if you don't subscribe to that, there is no way to support the idea that he crossed the MDL with the intent to align himself with the DPRK with reliable sources.

As a side note, some other notable deserters to North Korea like Charles Robert Jenkins also do not have the DPRK listed as a second allegiance. – Recoil16 (talk) 21:34, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:BLP There is no sourced evidence of why he went over there, much less where his allegiance is. We don't even know that he is physically in North Korea at this time. We also don't even know if he is alive. A lot of conflicting accounts and theories are out there, but none of it is certain. We don't know if he got nabbed for illegally crossing the border, or if the entire incident was planned in advance. We don't even really know if he did it to escape from the US Army. Until we get official conformation from government sources, we really should not assume anything. — Maile (talk) 23:06, 22 July 2023 (UTC

I've reverted the IPs revert. We have to adhere to Wikipedia's BLP standards. — Maile (talk) 23:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. – Recoil16 (talk) 23:18, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I support removing it.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Race

Is King the first black American to defect to Korea? If so, then it should be stated in the article as an achievement of historical significance. Currently, his race is listed as a category only. 1.127.104.36 (talk) 16:28, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

No indication this was about race. Unless he has military secrets or the like to offer North Korea, he is of no value to them. Desertion is not an "achievement", and is subject to Courts-martial. Given what happened to Otto Warmbier, King's future in North Korea is uncertain. — Maile (talk) 16:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance of Warmier.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:38, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Who gives a rat's ass what skin color or significance that holds. He's a traitor. That's the point! 74.88.112.61 (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Date format for American military

Please see WP:MILDATE. The Ameican military uses Day, Month, Year format. — Maile (talk) 14:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Age

The references claim that he was born in 1999 or 2000 and graduated high school in 2020. That obviously cannot be the case, as it would mean that he graduated high school at age 19, 20, or 21. While under some rare circumstances it is possible to graduate high school at age 19, there is no way he would have graduated high school at age 20 or 21. Something doesn't seem right. Where is Matt? (talk) 13:21, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Something's wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:32, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree that there may be cause for further inquiry, but if someone had significant academic struggles, family issues, or a combination of these and/or other delays could result in a significantly delayed high school graduation.

Maximilian775 (talk) 16:29, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

The usual process for such a scenario is an equivalency degree, not a high school diploma. Where is Matt? (talk) 04:42, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

The only websites that state his age that I can find, are Wikipedia, knock off Wikipedia's, websites that cite Wikipedia, or websites that should not be used as sources. I am deleting his stated birth information from the article accordingly as this is a noted issue related to the quality of this page. ₪RicknAsia₪ 05:46, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Traitor

When will someone add that to the Wiki page. He's a traitor. 74.88.112.61 (talk) 21:16, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

When a source calls him a traitor, I guess.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:19, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Not a traitor. He did not commit treason, which can only exist as an act of war. We currently have diplomatic relations with North Korea, not a state of war.

US Constitution definition of treason: as a specific act of war: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Reading this article on him, it looks more like he exhibited hostile aggression towards authority figures and civilians alike. But treason was not committed, because we are not at war. — Maile (talk) 19:58, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

You are correct about the United States and North Korea not being at war, but there are no diplomatic relations. All Western diplomatic matters are carried out by Sweden, as an intermediary. 200.88.239.240 (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

See also Protecting power#Current mandates – Recoil16 (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. — Maile (talk) 20:51, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Travis King/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Anime King (talk · contribs) 14:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Czarking0 (talk · contribs) 23:09, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello and thank you for opening this review. I think this article is close to GA but has some issues I'd like to remedy.

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	"the country he was stationed in at the time of the crossing" - change to where he was stationed at the time of crossing  Done " potentially prompting his crossing" - change to which may have prompted his crossing  Done "He later pleaded guilty to assault and destruction of public goods and paid ₩1 million (US$783) to fix the vehicle." then "It was also reported that he did not pay a fine" - this does not make sense did he pay it or not ?  Done
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	I think we should consider rewriting this article so it is not a biography according to WP:BIO thoughts?
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	WP:NYPOST is not a reliable source and should not be used for potentially libelous information of a WP:BLP. I believe WION is a similar tabliod but I am unfamilar with this source. Can you demonstrate that it is reliable? If not you should remove that as well. If both of those are removed I believe you do not have a reliavle source that shows connections with solicitation of child pornography. Can you find another source for that?  Done The talk page had some good comments on how his age seems ambiguous here. Can you comment on that?  Done
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	"The military escort had no ticket and was not allowed past the checkpoint. " This sentence is a direct copy from an article please change.  Done
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Can we find an image of him?
	7. Overall assessment.	I believe this article is in violation of WP:BIO. After a week with no comments from contributors and much longer with no response from the nominator I am rejecting this review. Don't frame this as a failure though. good progress was made and I think with a move and some rewriting it can get GA.

Responses

I did some work related to the review comments:
I changed the first two of three bullet points under 1a. I don't have time right now to check for third bullet point.
2a first bullet point I changed The NY Post and WION News to ABC News and The New York Times. However, New York Post still comes in as a reference for (currently) reference #43 which is the first in the section "Charges under the Uniform Code of Military Justice". Unsure if that would need to be defended or changed as well.
Re-wrote 2d so it no longer is copy/pasted from a news article.
I am very curious on 6a and 6b as I have seen wikis of various enlisted personel have what looks like an official military photo. Would that be applicable?
I am unable to contribute more right now but did what I can to help towards addressing a chunk of the issues raised. ₪RicknAsia₪ 02:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• I think you should still remove the NYPost source, but for now I added the NYT and ABC sources that you linked above since they support the same facts. If you do not wish to remove it then, I don't think that would constitute a failure in GA since there is now other sources supporting the same material. Czarking0 (talk) 23:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
• For 6, I won't fail the article under that but I think an enlistment photo would be great. Main thing I am still waiting on is the confusion around his age and if he paid the fine. Czarking0 (talk) 23:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Just realized you are not the nominator. I appreciate your help Czarking0 (talk) 23:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Honestly this is fun :) I'm excited at the idea of bumping up the rating of this Korea-related article. I removed his birthdate and year as I cannot find anything that doesn't cite/rip off this Wiki article or isn't a good source to cite. I'll work on the fine later this week and am inquiring with some military friends about if/where I can find a photo of him that could be usable but am coming up empty. Thank you for checking the updates on this Talk page, I truly apprecite it. ₪RicknAsia₪ 06:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the weirdness around his birthdate and high school graduation may just be true?

1. "Travis King, 23, a 2020 graduate of Park High School in Racine, has been missing since July 18, one day after officials say he was supposed to fly back to the United States." Which is from a local newspaper interview with his father. I suppose the journalist could have made a mistake, but I would consider this credible.

Williams, S., & The (Racine), J. T. (2023, Jul 26). FATHER SUSPECTS SON WAS DRINKING BEFORE CROSSING: TRAVIS KING | US SOLDIER IN NORTH KOREA. Wisconsin State Journal Retrieved from https://www.proquest.com/newspapers/father-suspects-son-was-drinking-before-crossing/docview/2841808908/se-2

2. "King, a 23-year-old cavalry scout with the 1st Armored Division, was supposed to leave Monday for Texas. He was escorted as far as customs but left the airport before boarding his plane."

Glauber, B. (2023, Jul 21). Family of racine soldier pleads for his return: U.S. army pvt. travis king held in north korea. Herald Times Reporter Retrieved from https://www.proquest.com/newspapers/family-racine-soldier-pleads-his-return/docview/2840147861/se-2

3. This source verifies his graduation: https://journaltimes.com/news/local/education/park-high-school-graduates/article_05da6c76-a28e-588b-8cdd-d635a50dc199.html

Given multiple sources seem to corroborate his age I think it should be included in the article Czarking0 (talk) 22:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Czarking0 I will still look for the enlistment photo ("hero photo") that was splashed in the media but am growing less and less confident I will be able to find it. I fixed the fine issue and added an additional reference from The Independent. In a nutshell, he was ordered to pay a fine in 2022 (which he did) and then ordered to pay a separate and larger fine in 2023 (which he did not). Thank you again for your time and I hope that covers the issues. ₪RicknAsia₪ 04:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I reached out to some people on the WP discord. Since all the news articles are able to get these images I feel like we should be able to as well. I'll give it another day Czarking0 (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we need to worry abut the photo. Did you see my comment about reworking it to not be a WP:BIO ? Czarking0 (talk) 03:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I missed that somehow and I understand why you rejected the higher rating for this article. I do not have the time to rewrite this page and seems there isn't interest by other editors. I truly appreciate your work reviewing this page which really helped improve it's quality. Your efforts are very much appreciated! Have a great day~ ₪RicknAsia₪ 02:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Gordon Black

Read news on Gordon Black today (https://www.reuters.com/world/us-soldier-detained-russia-travelled-through-china-without-clearance-army-2024-05-07) and the article mentions not only was Gordon "assigned to Camp Humphreys in South Korea" but then later mentions Travis King. Checked and didn't see a page for Gordon (yet?) but if (when) one gets made, it would be good to include each other, at least under the "See also" section. ₪RicknAsia₪ 02:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Different cases.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:51, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

where is he now?

what happened to him?? 32.219.217.173 (talk) 15:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)