Talk:National University of Trujillo

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

National University of Trujillo → Universidad Nacional de Trujillo

I have changed the name of the article to its native and sole name, "Universidad Nacional de Trujillo." This name will be understood in any language and I feel should be kept as the proper name of the article. For example, a google search for "Universidad Nacional de Trujillo" yields 118,000 hits, whereas "National University of Trujillo" yields only 1,510. "National University of Trujillo" will continue to direct to this page. Chiwara 20:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support - Chiwara 20:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - searching only English language pages in Google, the native spelling gets only 845 hits, so to English speakers the translated version seems more common by a ratio of 2:1.[1] And of course, there's the small matter of WP:ENGLISH. --DeLarge 16:06, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you got it backwards. A search of English language pages yields 845 hits for the Spanish name, and only 490 for the English name. So the Spanish name is more common among English speakers by a ratio of 2:1. Since that name is more common even among English speakers, it should be the name of the article. Chiwara 16:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[2]

Err, no. I don't count "Universidad Nacional de Trujillo" hits on foreign language sites as they're not aimed at English speakers, but there's plenty of English text on foreign language sites for the benefit of English speakers which are being dropped when Googlesearching English language-only pages (about two thirds of all hits, which is kinda what you'd expect when searching for a Peruvian university). Hence the apparent "uneven" comparison.

And I still haven't heard why WP:ENGLISH should be ignored. To flip the argument around, do you think es:Universidad de Oxford should be moved? That's clearly not the most common term for the University of Oxford, but those dang Spaniards went and translated it for their Wikipedia. --DeLarge 16:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I really don't mean for this to turn into a back-and-forth argument, but to answer your question, yes, I do think the Spanish language article should be moved to "University of Oxford." But secondly, I don't see how you can argue with the prevalence of the Spanish name above English in all contexts, regardless who it is named for. I have a degree from the Universidad Nacional de Trujillo, as do some of my English-speaking colleagues, and it seems silly to refer to it by any other name. Most people English speakers aware of the university know it only by its Spanish name, myself included. But furthermore, if the english-named search redirect to an article with the proper Spanish title, isn't that a greater source of information to the reader anyway? Chiwara 18:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Once again, no. We have a well established guideline, spelled out at WP:ENGLISH, to "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article". User:Jersey Devil, the creator of the article, felt no compulsion to ignore those guidelines even though he's Peruvian born and bred himself (and incidentally, I'd not only oppose the move, I'd oppose your most recent edits as well). This is an English language Wikipedia; there's an English language translation of the university's name; you've given no reasons at all that the English language name isn't used except the anecdotal evidence of "you and those you know". It seems especially obtuse to have a Spanish language title when Spanish speakers can just interwikilink to es:Universidad Nacional de Trujillo anyway. Seems like a no-brainer to me: follow the policies and guidelines of WP:ENGLISH (and apologies for repeating myself). --DeLarge 21:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I won't argue about this any more. But to correct you, I created the article - JerseyDevil just redirected it from its original Spanish name. Finally, I still feel, given the Google searches, that the Spanish name is more common among English users. I think the Wikipedia policy on this is rather dangerous and not universally applied - when stating the mottos of foreign countries in English-language articles, they are always kept in native languages and translated in English below. But the names of distinct foreign entities (like countries or universities) are always translated, regardless of the quality of translation. I understand Wiki policy, I just think it needs to change. Glad we had a productive discussion. Chiwara 22:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support There does not appear to be an official English name. Most of the hits under "National University of Trujillo" appear to be ad hoc personal translations, rather than an actual established English name. Looking at pages in English in the U.S. domain .edu, "Universidad nacional de Trujillo" gives 135 hits versus 60 for "National University of Trujillo". Joeldl 09:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UE. Current title is frequently used in English-language CV and resumes, some of which can be found on the internet via search. —  AjaxSmack  02:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

As a counter to that, my CV is in English, and I use the Spanish name. As do all my colleagues. Chiwara 02:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• Support - It is generally advisable to use the English name of something if the native language name would not be understood. This is certainly not the case here. Per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Use_English_words: Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form. As for standardization across the entirety of Wikipedia, I would disagree that names of Universities are translated in all cases. For most articles I have come across there is a rather even split between articles kept in their native language and translated (see the treatment of Georgetown_University, University of Pennsylvania and others across interwikis).- AKeen 14:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form." (WP:NC) Nobody has demonstrated that the native form is less commonly recognised by readers, merely that it is not in English, so I do not see that WP:UE mandates an English-language title in this case. WP:UE does not mean that all foreign-language titles are wrong. This article has been renamed from National University of Trujillo to Universidad Nacional de Trujillo as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 07:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)