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1945/1924

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How does the introduction of the legend in 1945 jibe with the Von Braun anecdote circa 1924? -- DougLuce

Contradiction

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Is it possible that the young Wernher von Braun could've heard of this legend prior to its first appearance in print? I think this is unlikely. Diego001 10:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Image description

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I have just came across Chinese Wikipedia, and it has a very different description on the same image.

The words doesn't exist at all. And the clothing are of ancient Japanese style.

After enlarging, I agree the words are not Chinese characters at all. It looks like something that was always shown in Western Cartoons. The authenticity is questionable. It's just like fakes in art collection. Dobs (talk) 09:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Also, if this picture is potraying what is happening according to the description of Herbert S. Zim, then the are not 47 rockets and there is no room for 47 servants.--Noname67097 (talk) 05:40, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wan Hu at Xichang Satellite Launch Center, China

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Here is a statue of Wan Hu at the visitors center of Xichang Satellite Launch Center, China.[1] Are we sure that Wan Hu is an Urban Legend that originated in the United States in the 1940s? --Diamonddavej (talk) 00:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We are not even sure when did Wan Hu appeared in the Chinese sources. They may probably just translated this urban legend.--Noname67097 (talk) 05:33, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

According to legend?

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I propose that this story is not according to legend, but rather according to a fairly recent "orientalist" story. There is nothing Chinese about it, even the picture doesn't appear to be Chinese. That said, it appears that the Chinese have translated it and are circulating it themselves, all referencing the book from 1945. I found this link on Chinese version of this article: http://beamjockey.livejournal.com/183431.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.14.173.51 (talk) 09:00, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Opel RAK.1 image

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The image of Opel RAK.1 seems rather irrelevant. The article does not link the German rocket plane flight back to Wan Hu, and while both involve rockets, one is a legend about a man who attempted to enter celestial realms using a chair with rockets, while the other is a flight where the pilot stayed on Earth. Still-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Butter (talk) 00:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

World’s first astronaut

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I don’t know who made that claim on this article, but it’s not backed up by anything. It seems especially at odds with the rest of the article which shows that the legend is dubious at best. Harpoonman (talk) 15:47, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no doubt that the story itself is a legend which is not yet proven, but the legend itself originated and became popular in the west during the 20th century, and in the legend Wan Hu is said to be possibly the first man to have attempted to use a rocket to launch into outer space, as mentioned in sources such as "Dear Sound of Footstep" (Page 43) by Ashley Butler. I have changed the text accordingly, instead of the previous wording in the article. --Wengier (talk) 04:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The new wording is better although it could be improved. One source is not many and Ashley Butler does not appear to be a historian or an expert in any way on the subject. I’m not a big fan of using such wording for modern legends with little historical expertise to back it up.
Unless there are actual expert sources using that wording, I think it should be specified exactly which authors are calling Wan Hu « the first man to have attempted to use a rocket to launch into outer space ». Harpoonman (talk) 12:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree that the legend is certainly not yet proven, the source from Ashley Butler is simply an example, and there are so many other sources. To list a few:
  1. The book "Science, the Departments of State, Justice, and Commerce, and Related Agencies Appropriations for 2007" (Page 198) by the United States Congress House Committee on Appropriations: "Chinese person's space dream could be traced to several centuries ago. Back in the 14th century, a Chinese named Wan Hu attempted to send himself into sky by lighting 47 gunpower-packed bamboo tubes tied to his chair. Although he got killed in his bold attempt, Wan has since been widely regarded as the world's first person using rockets as a flight vehicle..."
  2. The book "AF Manual" (Page 1-2) by the United States Department of the Air Force: "Wan Hu, Chinese scholar and scientist, intended to hurl himself into space by simultaneously igniting several rockets lashed to a sedan chair in which he was seated. In the blast that followed, both Wan Hu and his sedan chair completely disappeared, and thus we can assume that Wan Hu became the first martyr in man's struggle to achieve space flight..."
  3. The book "Pigeon Guided Missiles: And 49 Other Ideas that Never Took Off" (Page 158-159) by James Moore and Paul Nero: "The episode does, however, prove the enduring romance humans have with attempts to get beyond the Earth's atmosphere. The first record of anyone actually trying to do so has been credited to a Chinese man called Wan Hu. History logs him as the world's first astronaut..."
  4. The book "The Coming China Wars: Where They Will Be Fought and How They Can Be Won, Revised and Expanded Edition" (Page 165) by Peter Navarro: "During the Middle Ming Dynasty, a star-crossed Chinese official named Wan Hu attempted to become the world's first astronaut when he constructed a magnificent flying chair outfitted with 47 gunpower-filled rockets and 2 kites for Wings..."
  5. The book "To a Distant Day: The Rocket Pioneers" (Page 30) by Chris Gainor: "A well-known legend, which no evidence survives to substantiate, has it that the first human attempt to ride to ride a rocket took place about 1500 in China. Wan Hu, a Chinese mandarin, is said to have disappeared in a cloud of smoke after assistants lit forty-seven rockets attached to his chair..."
  6. The book "The Business of Space: The Next Frontier of International Competition" (Page 17) by L. Brennan and A. Vecchi: "Chinese Legend tells us of the first attempt to propel a man into space made in the fourteenth century by a Chinese official, Wan Hu..."
  7. The book "The Coming Age of Rocket Power" (Page 77) by George Edward Pendray: "Another often repeated tale of those early days concerns a long-forgotten Chinese mandarin named Wan-Hu, reported to have been the first person to undertake flight by rocket power..."
  8. The book "A Space Traveller's Guide To The Solar System" (Page 12) by Mark Thompson: "A wonderful sixteenth-century Chinese legend suggests that the first human to attempt transportation by rocket was one Wan Hu..."
  9. The book "Beyond the Saga of Rocket Science: The Dawn of the Space Age" (Page 73) by Walter Sierra: "Though doomed to fail, the Chinese scholar Wan Hu has been universally acknowledged as the first man to try flying to space with the help of rockets. In memory, NASA named the Wan-Hoo crater on the back of the Moon after him..."
There are also many other sources, but I don't think there is a need to show them all so I will stop here. --Wengier (talk) 18:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Authenticity

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This article could do better to reflect the hoax-like nature of the subject, the 1909 Scientific American article appears to be the oldest known source of the subject.

The Chinese Wikipedia version of the article has more clarity than this one in the opening section D1551D3N7 (talk) 21:13, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, although at this time the legend cannot be proven either true or false. Meanwhile, the corresponding article from Chinese Wikipedia also its own problems, including engaging original research to make judgements using unreliable sources such as Zhihu. --Wengier (talk) 17:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it probably can't be proven true or false and that the Chinese article is not perfect either but the open section seems to be biased towards portraying this as an ancient Chinese legend uncritically, without reading the rest you would think there was more sourcing or cultural background to it than an article written in an American magazine in 1909.
I think the fact its a "Chinese legend" has changed how it's being presented here (WP:Systemic bias), I don't think similar legends with such weak sourcing (an article 300 years after the event) would be presented this way.
Here's a paragraph I found from Ron Miller in his book "The Dream Machines":
Most authorities consider the story of Wan-Hoo apocryphal, including noted Sinologist Professor Joseph Needham, due to the large number of internal inconsistencies as well as an inability to discover any published reference to the tale earlier than 1909. It is most likely that the story was fabricated during the Chinoiserie period in Europe, during the 17th and l9th centuries, which was characterized by a fascination with all things Oriental. The earliest published account that historian Frank Winter has been able to locate was as late an October 2, 1909 issue of Scientific American (in which the name is given as “Wang Tu”). The story, however, is so charming that Wan-Hoo, fictional or not, has had a lunar crater named for him. D1551D3N7 (talk) 22:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We should cite Needham, but not Miller directly, who doesn't appear to have any relevant credentials. Remsense ‥ 论 00:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, and in any case I have added a new paragraph in the lede section to mention the fact there is currently no firm historical reference to substantiate the legend, as well as how Prof Joseph Needham and Prof Li Chengzhi viewed the legend. --Wengier (talk) 02:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great! Thanks D1551D3N7 (talk) 11:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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