Talk:Yahweh

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awareness to factuality[edit]

The expression, not name but actual meaning, since not actually finally-concluded (especially in written form) as being referred to Yahveh, Yah Veh or YHVH is most presently of meaning now.

Clearly all knowledge of besaid is relating from the torah, bible, septuagint as in scriptual form , and from earlier artifacts where it is widely unconcluded whether or whether not the lettering and phrasing is referring to besaid.

With such (factually and only by clear referrence with a just measure) in regard the factuality is: Yahveh is of present meaning. - self explaining the devastation of depictions and strange abreviations according to the content of the torah, which is the sole and main (paleo hebrew original text / greek septuagint / modern hebrew torah / christian bible)and only correct document to refer and state from, being the very leading source of knowledge despite the oral and some artifactual and all evidentual expressions and impressions.

correct stated: Also, present meaning in any case comes as more sure factuality then historic views. where the present meaning is lead from historic views and is most currently of prescence and action. Seperation of historians view has to be done and referred to as such clearly, especially in this holy manner majorly recieved from holy scripture.(strict factual) Again, wich all knowledge is recieved from the torah (and its lead to textuality and scriptuality) and as such has to be guarded and in accord with all additional content of such, from the torah equally.

correct as such (wording and spelling in brackets not included) following:

Yahweh (/ˈjɑːhweɪ/, or often /ˈjɑːweɪ/ in English; Hebrew: יהוה‎‎) is a meaning for the one god of israel and the jewish people, all creation and all existance. In the wake of time became to be known to israel, sowith the jewish people and further to humanity. In its form of writting presently and prior withnessed withunder thru the hebrew and christian bible, and other ancient documents such as the septuagint and earlier inscriptions of historic findings revealed troughout time till present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Info as is (talkcontribs) 18:13, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


Recent removal of content[edit]

This article seems to have an extremely troubled history, so maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see why the "rise of monotheism" section needed to be cut down to a third of its size, or why the etymology stuff needed to be scrubbed from the article entirely. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 16:47, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

How Yahweh became God deserves a deeper description, but if there are other articles on the subject, I understand it. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:08, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
There isn't really any one article that talks about it in depth, though. Information on this seems to be just kind of split between Yahweh#Yahweh and the rise of monotheism, Origins of Judaism#Monarchy (centralized religion), and History of ancient Israel and Judah#Iron Age Yahwism, and none of those sections are more detailed or prominent than the others (well, this one was, until it was condensed a year ago and then again just now). Maybe PiCo has something in mind for the removed material (which seems to be essentially his in the first place), but for now I'm going to try to restore some of it. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 16:52, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I restored the part about the proposed hwy etymology, the longer "rise of monotheism" section, and the lede's mention of the transition to monotheism. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 17:36, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
Seems reasonable to me. Doug Weller talk 18:00, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
My apologies for coming late to this, since my name is mentioned, but I didn't realise this discussion was going on.
There are 2 articles that cover very similar material, this one and YHWH. Once, years ago, they covered exactly the same material, (i.e. they were a fork), and so it was decided that YHWH would focus on the name and Yahweh on the ancient history of the god. So YHWH talks about the meanings of Hebrew trilateral roots and this one the two scholarly opinions on how the name might have originated.
I'll look again at the deleted material and see if it belongs here or in YHWH. But I very rarely edit YHWH, since my interest is more in the history of religion.
I deleted the "rise of monotheism" section because it seems out of place - the article is about a period in history when Yahweh was part of a polytheistic pantheon. The right place would be Second Temple Judaism, which is when monotheism arose. That's just thinking of the articles on Judaism as a historical sequence - this one is the first, describing Bronze/Iron Age Yahwism, then Second Temple Judaism, then I guess Rabbinic Judaism, when the religion changed again.
Anyway, that's my explanation of what I've done and how I'm thinking, but of course I'll accept the view of the community.PiCo (talk) 10:18, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
I get what you're saying, but I think most people who read the article are just going to be curious about Yahweh -- they won't be reading it side-by-side with the Tetragrammaton article or as part of a series with Second Temple Judaism, they're just going to expect a complete package along the lines of Isis or Moloch.
I definitely agree that this article is about the period in history when Yahweh was part of a polytheistic pantheon, but the end of that period is of particular importance, and at the moment I think detailed information on that transition would be more at home here than in any of the other articles linked in this discussion. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 16:48, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

This Yahweh and the Present-day Yahweh[edit]

Should we consider the Edomite Yahweh and the present-day Yahweh the same, especially since lore about the polytheistic ancient Yahweh (Exodus, etc.) is understood by followers to about the monotheistic present-day Yahweh they worship. If we consider them the same deity then "His origins are mysterious" is non-neutral.Gonzales John (talk) 05:42, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

The scope of this article is Yahweh in Bronze/Iron Age Israel and Judah. That Yahweh isn't the same as the modern God of Israel, because gods change and evolve over time, especially over a period as long as three thousand years.
If by "Edomite" Yahweh you mean the name mentioned in the ancient Egyptian inscriptions, the answer is that nobody has any idea what that god was like - all it amounts to is the phrase "Shasu of YHW", with YHW apparently a place-name, not the name of a god.
Modern Jews do regard the scriptural YHWH to be their God, the God who brought them out of Egypt and continues to hold them before all mankind as his own people, but the scope of our article is YHWH as he was conceived in the two Iron Age kingdoms for the space of about 500 years between 1000-500 BCE. Even in that space of time the way he was conceived changed, from a warrior god with his shrine at Shiloh leading Israel against her enemies to a god who adopted the King of Jerusalem as his son. At that earliest stage the Exodus story wasn't important in Judah - there's no trace of it in the earliest southern prophets, only in the northern ones - and it was only after the Exile that the Exodus story became central to Jews. In other words, YHWH has been constantly changing, and the YHWH we're talking about in this article had little in common with the YHWH of a thousand years later.PiCo (talk) 10:30, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
PiCo (talk), okay, I guess I'm satisfied now.Gonzales John (talk) 07:22, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
If the scope of the article is YHWH as he was conceived in the two Iron Age kingdoms, shouldn't the title reflect that? "Yahweh in the Iron Age of the Levant" or something? The various concepts of YHWH are far more than just Iron Age beliefs; and an article titled Yahweh, should also cover ancient and modern Judaism, Christianity and even Rastafarianism. Philip72 (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
This has been discussed to death. Yahweh is an ancient god, our article is about that ancient god, and neither Jews nor Christians nor Muslims usually call their God Yahweh. See WP:COMMONNAME. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:10, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Leader of the Canaanite pantheon?[edit]

Canaanite religion now says "Yahweh God rewarded with leadership of the pantheon for defeating the sea" and doesn't suggest that El was, oddly citing Frank Moore Cross for saying Yahweh was the leader although here Cross says it was El. Evidently I and User:Isambard Kingdom have been vandalising the article, at least the talk page says so and the most recent edit summary there I assume refers to us. If anyone here wants to look at the entries for Yahweh and El that would be useful, especially as clearly the entry there for Yahweh should reflect this article. Doug Weller talk 12:53, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Here on the Yahweh article, Smith's book is cited as saying that Yahweh was a southern desert storm god who joined the Canaanite pantheon then replaced El as the supreme god. Over at Talk:Ancient Canaanite religion#Doesn't Cross call El the head of the pantheon?, we've been discussing whether Yahweh was part of the Canaanite pantheon. I found that Cross' book says Yahweh originated as an epithet for El from the verb "to be" e.g "He who", not as a name for a separate god. Both routes to Yahweh see him supplant or become El as first the supreme and then the only god in the Israelite religion, but they are not consistent. Does anyone have access to the pages in Smith cited in this article for Yahweh being a separate god that was imported into the Canaanite pantheon? We need to confirm that interpretation and, if confirmed, we should report both versions. Fences&Windows 15:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Maybe a few other good sources would be useful also. Doug Weller talk 16:52, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
This is a review of a recent book by Thomas Römer, The Invention of God: [1]. It supports the "out of the southern desert angle". Fences&Windows 19:34, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
This new book by Richard Smoley, "How God Became God: What Scholars Are Really Saying About God and the Bible", repeats Cross' argument about the origin of Yahweh as an epithet for El (pages 61-63). Fences&Windows 20:11, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
It would also be useful to have some sources that are focussing directly on the Canaanites, not the Bible. eg Canaanites by Jonathan N. Tubb[2]. I'd also argue that Israelite identification of their god Yahweh with El (and evidently with Baal when he became leader of the pantheon) doesn't actually make Yahweh a member of the Canaanite pantheon. Doug Weller talk 20:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Agreed on the last point. Fences&Windows 22:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Over at History of ancient Israel and Judah#Iron Age Yahwism it says "Yahweh, the national god of both Israel and Judah, seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan and may have been brought to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage.[1]". We should incorporate that here too. Fences&Windows 07:58, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
In the article Qos (deity), the Edomite god Qos/Quas is suggested to be identified with Yahweh. The argument is not totally conclusive, but supports Yahwism arising in the southern desert (Negev/Sinai/north Arabian peninsula) Edomite/Midianite/Kenite tribes and then moving north. See the references therein and Kelley, Justin. “Toward a new synthesis of the god of Edom and Yaheweh”. Antiguo Oriente: Cuadernos del Centro de Estudios de Historia del Antiguo Oriente 7 (2009). http://bibliotecadigital.uca.edu.ar/repositorio/revistas/toward-new-synthesis-god-edom.pdf. Quas is mentioned once in this article as the god of Edom but that could be expanded. Fences&Windows 09:07, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
    • ^ Van der Toorn 1999, p. 911–3.