Talk:Zhuangzi (book)

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Content[edit]

Hello everybody, I have just finished reading this one and would like to add the content (a list of chapters). Perhaps somebody has weighed this idea before and decided against it (since it is not on the page, whereas for many philosophers a list of works is present). I would like to know why not. If I hear nothing or encouragement I will add the following:

Book I. Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease
Book 2. The Adjustment of Controversies
Book 3. Nourishing the Lord of Life
Book 4. Man in the World, Associated with other Men
Book 5. The Seal of Virtue Complete
Book 6. The Great and Most Honoured Master
Book 7. The Normal Course for Rulers and Kings
Book 8. Webbed Toes
Book 9. Horse's Hooves
Book 10. Cutting Open Satchels
Book 11. Letting Be, and Exercising Forbearance
Book 12. Heaven and Earth
Book 13. The Way of Heaven
Book 14. The Revolution of Heaven
Book 15. Ingrained Ideas
Book 16. Correcting the Nature
Book 17. The Floods of Autumn
Book 18. Perfect Enjoyment
Book 19. The Full Understanding of Life
Book 20. The Tree on the Mountain
Book 21. Thien Tsze-fang
Book 22. Knowledge Rambling in the North
Book 23. Kang-sang Khû
Book 24. Hsü Wû-kwei
Book 25. Tseh-yang
Book 26. What Comes from Without
Book 27. Metaphorical Language
Book 28. Kings who have wished to resign the Throne
Book 29. The Robber Kih
Book 30. Delight in the Sword Fight
Book 31. The Old Fisherman
Book 32. Lieh Yü-khâu
Book 33. Historical Phases of Tâoist Teaching

There are many sources, but I think this is the complete one. Some references:

http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/
http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=2712&if=en

Let me know what you think. --Faust (talk) 09:18, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Good idea! But I think it would be best to add the original Chinese chapter titles as well as English translations, given how translating from Chinese (especially Old Chinese) is a complicated matter resolved differently in different translations. Also, maybe it would be good to separate the Inner and Outer chapters in the list. --Jashiin (talk) 10:42, 8 September 2010 (UTC)


Well, it seems you like the second source. I will copy/paste it below. If there will be no negatives I will add it in a few days.

莊子 - Zhuangzi
內篇 - Inner Chapters
逍遙遊 - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease
齊物論 - The Adjustment of Controversies
養生主 - Nourishing the Lord of Life
人間世 - Man in the World, Associated with other Men
德充符 - The Seal of Virtue Complete
大宗師 - The Great and Most Honoured Master
應帝王 - The Normal Course for Rulers and Kings
外篇 - Outer Chapters
駢拇 - Webbed Toes
馬蹄 - Horses's Hoofs
胠篋 - Cutting open Satchels
在宥 - Letting Be, and Exercising Forbearance
天地 - Heaven and Earth
天道 - The Way of Heaven
天運 - The Revolution of Heaven
刻意 - Ingrained Ideas
繕性 - Correcting the Nature
秋水 - The Floods of Autumn
至樂 - Perfect Enjoyment
達生 - The Full Understanding of Life
山木 - The Tree on the Mountain
田子方 - Tian Zi-fang
知北遊 - Knowledge Rambling in the North
雜篇 - Miscellaneous Chapters
庚桑楚 - Geng-sang Chu
徐無鬼 - Xu Wu-gui
則陽 - Ze-yang
外物 - What comes from Without
寓言 - Metaphorical Language
讓王 - Kings who have wished to resign the Throne
盜跖 - The Robber Zhi
說劍 - Delight in the Sword-fight
漁父 - The Old Fisherman
列禦寇 - Lie Yu-kou
天下 - Tian Xia
--Faust (talk) 18:06, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
A chapter list is a good idea and I have two suggestions. Make a table (see Help:Table) with four columns for chapter number, pinyin (I'll be glad to add this), characters, and translation. Use a modern translation instead of Legge's outdated 1891 version. Keahapana (talk) 21:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay, here is an idea on the tables. I did use the old translations btw. I like them and I have a decent source for them.

莊子 - Zhuangzi
內篇 - Inner Chapters 外篇 - Outer Chapters 雜篇 - Miscellaneous Chapters
逍遙遊 - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease 駢拇 - Webbed Toes 庚桑楚 - Geng-sang Chu
逍遙遊 - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease 馬蹄 - Horses's Hoofs 徐無鬼 - Xu Wu-gui
養生主 - Nourishing the Lord of Life 胠篋 - Cutting open Satchels 則陽 - Ze-yang
人間世 - Man in the World, Associated with other Men 在宥 - Letting Be, and Exercising Forbearance 外物 - What comes from Without
德充符 - The Seal of Virtue Complete 天地 - Heaven and Earth 寓言 - Metaphorical Language
大宗師 - The Great and Most Honoured Master 天道 - The Way of Heaven 讓王 - Kings who have wished to resign the Throne
應帝王 - The Normal Course for Rulers and Kings 天運 - The Revolution of Heaven 盜跖 - The Robber Zhi
刻意 - Ingrained Ideas 說劍 - Delight in the Sword-fight
繕性 - Correcting the Nature 漁父 - The Old Fisherman
秋水 - The Floods of Autumn 列禦寇 - Lie Yu-kou
至樂 - Perfect Enjoyment 天下 - Tian Xia
達生 - The Full Understanding of Life
山木 - The Tree on the Mountain
田子方 - Tian Zi-fang
知北遊 - Knowledge Rambling in the North

--Faust (talk) 16:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Citations[edit]

I worked a bit on a good article nomination with White Whirlwind some time ago. Not sure I have the time to be a reviewer for this one, but I would think the first thing a reviewer would want to talk about is the citations. I think it's a good, compressed style, but I've never seen citations done like this before. In addition, the citations make a reference to a 1998 Mair text which doesn't appear in the works cited list, as well as a "authorless" work in the works cited, which seems a bit strange. Are they the same work or what? TI. Gracchus (talk) 19:30, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi there. To answer your questions: the citations are in a pretty standard format for the field. That "Authorless" one is supposed to be a solid line, which is used when you have a bunch of works in a row all by the same author, in this case it saves writing "Victor Mair" over and over. Very standard stuff.  White Whirlwind  咨  03:16, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification! There's still a lot I have to learn, I'm afraid. I'm increasingly tempted to review this article - the only problem is that it is so beautiful already I don't feel qualified to offer any critique. I may try to get help or training from the Good Article gurus to try and address this. My schedule is a bit unpredictable, but I'll see what I can do. It's obvious you've put in a lot of work and I'd like to help if I can. TI. Gracchus (talk) 06:47, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Zhuangzi (book)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zanhe (talk · contribs) 00:54, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

My first impression is that that article is quite close to meeting GA criteria, but I'll study the article and sources and give a more detailed review in the next few days. -Zanhe (talk) 00:58, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Lead
  • Per Chinese MoS, hanzi should be removed from the lead as it is already in infoboxes. On the other hand, the WG romanization Chuang Tzu is quite often seen in English literature and should be included in the lead.
  • "Virtually every major Chinese writer and poet in history ... were familiar with and deeply influenced by the Zhuangzi." This is a bit over the top and should be toned down or at least attributed to Mair. (also in the "Influence" section)
Done.  White Whirlwind  咨  03:14, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Content
  • The sentence - "In this anecdote, Zhuangzi humorously and absurdly uses "Wonton", a name for both primordial chaos and, by physical analogy, wonton soup, to demonstrate what he believed were the disastrous consequences of going against things' innate natures." - is uncited and looks dubious. "Wonton" seems to be the idiosyncratic translation used by Mair. The original Chinese word 渾沌 hundun is different from wonton the food, and it's doubtful that wonton soup had been invented in the Zhou dynasty.
Although Mair does tend toward idiosyncrasy, he generally does so with good reasons: in this case, the Chinese word hundun 渾沌 probably is the same as the food and was extant in the late Warring States period, contrary to what you wrote. The connections between hundun Chaos and "wonton" food have been noted since at least Wolfram Eberhard. Mair (1994:386) has a note on the subject, which is also treated in Anderson's The Food of China, which Mair cites.  White Whirlwind  咨  03:25, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
References
  • Some sources cited are available on Google books, including Mair 1994, the main source for the article. It would be helpful to add the URLs in to the citation templates, to make it easier for people who'd like to check out the sources and read more.
I've never put Google Books links onto WP sources before, so I wasn't entirely sure what the formatting practice was. Take a look at the two I found and if there's anything wrong with them I'd appreciate anyone fixing them for me.  White Whirlwind  咨  03:32, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Breadth
  • The article covers most main points quite well. One major omission I can see is the analysis of the philosophy of the outer and miscellaneous chapters, especially the Yangist chapters (cf. the Zhuangzi entry on the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). According to David Nivison in the Cambridge History of Ancient China (p. 786), Yang Zhu or one of his disciples may have been the unnamed "master" quoted in Zhuangzi, and Yangism may have evolved into Zhuangzi's Daoism, so this seems particularly important. The Primitivist and Syncretist chapters also deserve at least a brief summary.
  • The article mentions commentaries by Guo Xiang and Cheng Duckworth picking symptoms a mention, perhaps in a list format similar to thetranslat
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) Hhhhhh no Cryin to before before and I additionally was planning to add another area that is not currently in the article, namely the Zhuangzi's huge influence on Zen Buddhism, particularly in Japan. However, I was hoping to leave these for if/when the article gets ready for FA nomination. I'd rather not have to add ALL this material at the moment, if possible.  White Whirlwind  咨  03:41, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Overall this is a very well written article and I enjoyed reading and reviewing it. I'll put it on hold while waiting for your improvement. -Zanhe (talk) 09:49, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Query[edit]

What is the status of this review? I see a couple of minor edits from the nominator on March 8, but nothing in the four weeks since then. If the improvements requested aren't going to be done, then the nomination should probably be closed as unsuccessful, given the issues raised. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:49, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I posted a message on the nominator's talk page. Despite the issues raised, it's a high quality article and I really hope it will pass. -Zanhe (talk) 23:19, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
The only issue that seems to be untouched is the breadth note, which he chose to hold off on. Aside from that the issues appear to be fixed now (i handled any that he said he did but didn't), so the article passes. Wizardman 13:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)