Template:Did you know nominations/Trinity Green (building)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 16:13, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
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Trinity Green (building)[edit]
... that Grade I listed buildings Trinity Green are believed to have been designed by Sir Christopher Wren?
ALT1:... that in 1927, a bust of William Booth was installed at Trinity Green?ALT2:... that in February 2016, local residents complained about a proposed 28-storey tower block being built near Trinity Green?- Reviewed: Harry Abofs
Created by Joseph2302 (talk). Self-nominated at 19:33, 9 May 2016 (UTC).
New enough, long enough. Unfortunately the main hook is clearly not true. All the up to date sources, apart from the lazy Independent journalist (who only says "possibly") say they were designed by Sir William Ogbourne. Hooks ALT1&2 seem pretty boring. It would be better to just say when and why they were built, or do "only surviving ....". Any hook needs to say where they are (in London). Johnbod (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
ALT3: ... that Grade I listed buildings Trinity Green are the only almshouses in East London still in existence?- Johnbod Do you approve of this hook? Joseph2302 (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think this is correct, or at the very least needs clarifying. See List_of_almshouses_in_the_United_Kingdom#Greater_London. Oncenawhile (talk) 08:13, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
- That source doesn't support the statement that it's the only one in East London (although I'm sure a source did claim that). Joseph2302 (talk) 09:32, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
ALT4:... that Grade I listed buildings Trinity Green in Mile End, London were built in 1695?Joseph2302 (talk) 09:32, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
- This is ok, but not great because there's no context. I suspect this would be one of the oldest buildings in Whitechapel, but we'd need a source to state that.
- What might be more interesting is a hook explaining that the statue of Booth is there because it was the area where he first began his work that became the Salvation Army.
- Separately, the title of the article is wrong. Technically the term "Trinity Green" appears to refer to the square in front of the buildings. The common term for the buildings (note it's plural, not singular as currently in the title) is "Trinity Green Almshouses" or "Trinity Almshouses".
- Oncenawhile (talk) 10:04, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- Would [1] suffice for being "the oldest almshouses in Central London"? Joseph2302 (talk) 10:34, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- ALT5:
... that Grade I listed Trinity Green Almshouses are the oldest almshouses in Central London? - ALT6: ... that a bust of William Booth at the Trinity Green Almshouses commemorates Booth preaching in front of the almshouses, which lead to the founding of The Salvation Army?
- Two possible new hooks, ALT6 mentions Booth, the almshouses & the Salvation Army as requested. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:19, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
I am content with ALT5. It's a big claim, but the Evening Standard is London's dominant newspaper so should be reliable, and having checked the other almshouses on our list above it appears to check out as I cannnot find any earlier. Oncenawhile (talk) 06:12, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- I was considering promoting this to prep but did not. For a start, Mile End is not normally considered to be in Central London, and the Evening Standard is hardly an expert in architecture. It might be better to have a completely different hook. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:16, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth I don't see why the London Evening Standard is not a reliable source, like you're claiming. Also, Mile End is Central London for some definitions of Central London, such as the London Plan. Given this hook has been approved by 2 people and is reliably sourced, I don't see a need to change it. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:03, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- You should think what the phrase "reliable source" actually means. I'm sure the London Evening Standard can tell you what happened yesterday - news - but what does the author of the article know about old buildings? In this case it is just a casual remark in the headline in an article about a planning proposal. The "oldest" is always a risky claim to make unless backed by a proper reliable source. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:57, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well two other editors think it's fine, and there's no reliable sources that dispute or contradict the claim.
- If you don't like ALT5, what about ALT6? Joseph2302 (talk) 09:16, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- How about "is considered to be the oldest" or "is thought to be..." or "has been referred to as..." Oncenawhile (talk) 18:37, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Any "oldest" claim needs to be very well-founded, and there is also the question of defining "Central London". Oncenawhile has suggested a possible solution, and ALT6 could be reviewed. I just made a passing comment that I wasn't prepared to promote ALT5. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:44, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
- How about "is considered to be the oldest" or "is thought to be..." or "has been referred to as..." Oncenawhile (talk) 18:37, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- You should think what the phrase "reliable source" actually means. I'm sure the London Evening Standard can tell you what happened yesterday - news - but what does the author of the article know about old buildings? In this case it is just a casual remark in the headline in an article about a planning proposal. The "oldest" is always a risky claim to make unless backed by a proper reliable source. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:57, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth I don't see why the London Evening Standard is not a reliable source, like you're claiming. Also, Mile End is Central London for some definitions of Central London, such as the London Plan. Given this hook has been approved by 2 people and is reliably sourced, I don't see a need to change it. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:03, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
I'd accept any of the following hooks:
- ALT5, which was accepted but has been challenged
- ALT6, which would need a reviewer to accept it
- ALT7: ... that Grade I listed Trinity Green Almshouses are believed to be the oldest almshouses in Central London?
ALT7 is as suggested by Oncenawhile, to make it ALT5 less contentious. I would appreciate if someone would review one of these hooks. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:36, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
Reviewer needed to check ALT6 and ALT7. I have struck ALT5 per Cwmhiraeth; this is just the sort of thing that has caused hooks to be pulled in the past. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:09, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset, I'm assuming you just want the hooks checked here: if you want a full check, let me know. ALT6 is mostly fine, but it refers to a bust, and the online source appears to show a full-body statue: nitpicky, perhaps, but unless the offline source says different I'd rather avoid that. ALT7 is sourced inline, and supported by the source, and good to go. A trifle dry, perhaps, but I'm okay with that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:14, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
- These almshouses are in Mile End. Our article on Mile End states "Mile End is a district in East London, England, 3.6 miles (5.8 km) east-northeast of Charing Cross." So how can these almshouses, which are in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets in the East End of London, be the oldest in Central London? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:41, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well, it depends on the definition of Central London- there is no universal definition. The Wikipedia article says that "The London Plan defines the "Central Activities Zone" policy area, which comprises the City of London, most of Westminster and the inner parts of Camden, Islington, Hackney, Tower Hamlets, Southwark, Lambeth and Kensington and Chelsea." Under this definition, the houses (which are on the edge of Whitechapel and Mile End in Tower Hamlets) can be seen as part of Central London. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
- Also, changed the article, as most of the sources just say it's on the Mile End Road, rather than Mile End itself. Although if sources believe it's in Central London, then I don't why other Wikipedia articles, which are tertiary sources, are being used to dispute secondary sources. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:10, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well, it depends on the definition of Central London- there is no universal definition. The Wikipedia article says that "The London Plan defines the "Central Activities Zone" policy area, which comprises the City of London, most of Westminster and the inner parts of Camden, Islington, Hackney, Tower Hamlets, Southwark, Lambeth and Kensington and Chelsea." Under this definition, the houses (which are on the edge of Whitechapel and Mile End in Tower Hamlets) can be seen as part of Central London. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
- These almshouses are in Mile End. Our article on Mile End states "Mile End is a district in East London, England, 3.6 miles (5.8 km) east-northeast of Charing Cross." So how can these almshouses, which are in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets in the East End of London, be the oldest in Central London? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:41, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
- ALT8: ... that the Grade I listed Trinity Green Almshouses were built to house "28 decay’d Masters & Commanders of Ships or ye Widows of such"? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:49, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
- New reviewer needed for ALT8. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:38, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Article length and date verified, no close paraphrasing. 'ALT8 approved, with the caveat that "ye" or "þe" is probably pretentious an obsolete typographical convention for "the". ALT6 is also fine, but should be "statue" rather than "bust" as that's what the source says. Not a fan of "believed to be the oldest". Intelligentsium 23:37, 14 June 2016 (UTC)