Template talk:Israel–Hamas war infobox

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request - Lancet Contribution citation

I couldn't figure out how to get the Wikipedia template wizard to work right for the infobox talk but this is an extended-confirmed-protected edit request. I would propose by consensus changing the written attribution for the Lancet contribution to change from "Lancet contribution" to "Khatib, McKee, and Yusuf" or "Khatib et al." or "Advocate Aurora Research Institute and Birzeit University" (the affilitations of the corresponding author). Looking at recent war casualty pages in Wikipedia, casualty estimates are always attributed to the source or authors and not the journal unless editors of the journal are on the paper (e.g. a PLoS bio study). See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932021), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War. The only exception to this rule I could find was citation of a "Lancet survey" in the Iraq war page, which I would argue is also a mistake but slightly better because published surveys are often pre-approved by the journal and at the very least heavily associated with the journal's name in a way that correspondences are not. Besides the relevance of precedence to changing the attribution, it is also the norm in modern science to cite authors and not journals because publication in a journal is a prerequisite sign of credibility/plausibility, but not representative of the source of a claim or its evidence. The current citation style ends up sounding more like a Twitter feed ("my journal that I can't read says this") and less like an encyclopedic source "Khatib et al from Birzeit university projected" ... [cite lancet correspondence]".

For the same box, the direct casualties from MoH should still be cited (circa 40,000); it is inappropriate to cite only total (direct+indirect) casualty estimates and not direct casualty numbers (see all the Wikipedia pages above which cite Body Count sources which are directly caused deaths), especially when the indirect estimate in Khatib et al. was obtained by multiplying the direct number by 4. Scienceturtle1 (talk) 17:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

More recent edits seem to have resolved this, and almost certainly fairer still now that this multiplication by 4 is removed from the box. Scienceturtle1 (talk) 16:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

RFC

@BilledMammal: Which RFC are you referring to? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

This one, which found a consensus for a footnote with "Per Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry", an attribution that was then stable in the article until a couple of weeks ago. BilledMammal (talk) 10:52, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: Can you elaborate? The closing note says that "reliable sources provided attribution from both the Gaza Health Ministry and Israel," and not "Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry". Makeandtoss (talk) 11:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Look at the proposed text for Option 1. BilledMammal (talk) 11:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not conclusive, Options 2 and 3 also have it, pretty sure people weren't that focused on the "Hamas-run" part, I was involved and I wasn't. Selfstudier (talk) 11:17, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I’m not sure what your point is. There isn’t a consensus for a specifically proposed text because some - although not all - of the other options also included that text?

This doesn’t work that way. BilledMammal (talk) 11:25, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

It is now going to be addressed at the newer RFC so academic what either of us think at this point-. Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

A general RFC won’t overturn the specific one here - it’s not like we’re writing policy, and the general RFC will thus only provide a weak guidance that can easily be overturned specific articles. BilledMammal (talk) 12:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

The (new) RFC opener said "I'd rather do something than let this continue to be an issue across a pile of articles." Selfstudier (talk) 12:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

And then, when opening it "This has been a recurring issue across many articles in the ARBPIA space, where NPOV concerns have been presented both in support and opposition to the Hamas-run label. Rather than dealing with establishing a local consensus each time this arises I am seeking a broader community consensus on using a qualifier with Gaza Health Ministry." So yea, that argument isn't going to fly. Selfstudier (talk) 12:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Removed 24 June That consensus covers endnote attribution to GHM and now the "Hamas run" part of that is subject of the new RFC at NPOVN (there having been several other inconclusive discussions since end 2023). Selfstudier (talk) 11:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC

I read through the discussion at that RfC and there was no consensus to include Hamas-run and the closers comment said nothing about it. The most recent discussion before Hamas-run was removed from here is Talk:Israel–Hamas_war/Archive_44#"Hamas-run". NadVolum (talk) 12:16, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Removing guesses/estimates about future casualties from the infobox, to keep consistency with all other articles about ongoing armed conflicts

I looked today at the page List of ongoing armed conflicts, and checked all the conflicts (and their sub-conflicts) under the heading of Major wars (10,000 or more combat-related deaths in current or previous year) and wars (1,000–9,999 combat-related deaths in current or previous year). Except for this page on the Israel-Hamas war, NOT EVEN ONE of the ~90 articles listed under those categories, mentions future hypothetical deaths (that may or may not happen) in the listing of casualties in the Military Conflict Infobox. Therefore including this guesses/estimates about the future here is a glaring violation of WP:NPOV and WP:DUE, therefore I removed it. Vegan416 (talk) 08:11, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Israeli casualties drop

A couple of days ago there was a sudden drop in the casualty count. I assume that we've got a new, better source contradicting the ones we had before, or should we revert to the previous figure? Gorgedweller (talk) 18:08, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

THe UNOCHA recently changed what figures it would report for the conflict. The figures are still from the Gaza Health Ministry. The overall figure is still their total recorded deaths. However the breakdown now is of deaths where their identity is known. NadVolum (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Casualties

@EkoGraf: I think you have misunderstood the source. It relates solely to those who died on October 7:

determine that 815 of 1,195 people killed on October 7 were civilians

BilledMammal (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, regarding this edit; demobilised reservists are always classified as civilians under international law, and in this case he was targeted as a civilian. It’s not appropriate to list him as a military casualty. BilledMammal (talk) 23:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The HRW report missrelayed AFP's reporting. As you can see from the AFP's tally at the end of May that I linked [1], they cited at the time 1,189 confirmed deaths, including - 796 civilians, 379 security forces members and 14 "civilian hostages". So they are including civilian hostages who were confirmed to have died subsequently after October 7, but were taken on October 7. And we are currently listing civilian hostages and hostages thought to have been killed on October 7 but bodies taken to Gaza separately. So we should be careful regarding double counting in regards to the other separate figure. EkoGraf (talk) 23:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The reservist is considered as a military casualty of the conflict by the IDF, his name is on the list [2] and is already included in the overall toll of IDF fatalities in the conflict by the Israeli military [3]. EkoGraf (talk) 23:41, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

That source is from May and is out of date. Further, it’s referring solely to those killed on October 7; Hamas's October 7 attack on Israel resulted in the deaths of 1,189 people

Regarding the reservist, it doesn’t matter how the IDF chooses to list him. The only question is whether he was a civilian, and he was. BilledMammal (talk) 23:47, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Quote from the AFP report - "The latest toll from the attack is now 796 civilians, 379 members of the security forces and 14 civilian hostages, giving a total of 1,189.". So it was clear AFP also includes in its death toll of October 7th hostages who subsequently died. Most likely because they were victims of October 7th. Since that May report, AFP issued only three new updates of the overall toll 1,190[4], 1,194[5] and 1,195[6]. The last one being the figure that HRW used in its report. So no indication they stopped counting in the overall October 7th toll hostages who were subsequently killed.

As for the reservist, what matters is what the sources say, and the IDF (as well as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs[7]) counts him as a military fatality, and their overall figure (including him) is the one being reported by other media outlets. Also, I have not seen sources that he was demobilised at the time of his death. If they did, I would actually totally agree with you. Reports say he was only "off-duty" at the time [8]. EkoGraf (talk) 00:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

That’s referring to hostages who died on October 7, it lists hostages who died on other days separately.

See his obituary; he was demobilised on Hanukkah.

However, in this case it doesn’t matter - even if he was a full time soldier he would be a civilian casualty, because he was targeted as a civilian. It’s no different to the soldiers who were massacred at Nova. BilledMammal (talk) 00:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, AFP's reporting clearly states they include in their death toll hostages as well (I quoted the sentence). The only other figure they reported separately is the one that the IDF has said are thought to be dead, but are not confirmed.

Your source says, and I quote - "Ori served on the Gaza border in the wake of October 7th, was discharged during Hanukkah, and had returned to reserve duty in the Gush Etzion region when his life was tragically cut short." So after being discharged during Hanukkah, he was subsequently returned to reserve duty (see linked definition). He did not become a full-time civilian like Lidor Levy[9]. And your source also says he was an "off-duty" soldier at the time of his death. EkoGraf (talk) 00:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Off-duty soldiers are still soldiers and they are officially considered military fatalities of this conflict. There were dozens of off-duty US soldiers for example who were killed in insurgent attacks during the Vietnam War, but are considered military and not civilian fatalities. In any case, our personal interpretations and views need to be put aside and we are required to stick to what the sources say as per WP:Verifiability. And the state of Israel officially considers him as a soldier who died during this conflict. We can see what other editors also think... EkoGraf (talk) 00:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes - they include hostages killed on the 7th. Hostages killed on other days are listed separately, so currently we are undercounting.

I’ll add that we shouldn’t be relying on our interpretation of the source when ambiguous - we should be relying on reliable sources’ interpretation, and in this case they say the number is for those killed on October 7.

Regarding Ori, you’re right - I misread that. BilledMammal (talk) 01:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Glad Ori is cleared.

Like I already said, in none of its reports has AFP listed hostages killed later separately. The only figure they have listed separately is those hostages who are thought to be dead by the IDF but not confirmed. AFP includes confirmed hostage deaths (bodies retrieved) in their overall count of deaths of the October 7th attack, as seen from the quoted sentence. Every time a new body is recovered, AFP increases its count. The latest being 1,197 as of today [10]. They have clearly stated their count includes civilians killed on October 7, security forces members killed on October 7, and "civilian hostages" killed. At the time when they reported 14 civilian hostages in their count, 14 bodies had been recovered from Gaza up to that point. Its getting late at the moment and best to take a break and like I said see if other editors can chip in with their opinions as well. Cheers! EkoGraf (talk) 01:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Hamas's October 7 attack on southern Israel that sparked the war resulted in the deaths of 1,195 people, mostly civilians, according to an AFP tally based on Israeli figures.
The militants also seized 251 hostages, 116 of whom remain in Gaza, including 42 the military says are dead.

Regardless, when there is a dispute over the interpretation of reliable sources, we should defer to reliable sources - which say that AFP’s figures are for October 7. BilledMammal (talk) 01:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

See this report [11], at this time (yesterday) they said 24 hostage bodies recovered, while 39 are thought to be dead by the military. Those 24 are among AFP's count. I would be willing to compromise that we put 815 as per HRW's report of citing AFP, if we remove the separate hostages toll from the count or just leave the current figure of 42 thought dead. Since its more than apparent AFP increases its count of victims of October 7th each time a new body is recovered (of either someone who died on October 7th or later). In any case, to be continued, hopefully after other editors also state their views. Good night! EkoGraf (talk) 01:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Excluding dead hostages isn’t appropriate.

However, this discussion is going in circles, let’s resolve it. Do you have a source supporting your interpretation that the figures include hostages who died after October 7? BilledMammal (talk) 01:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I already provided a source, AFP itself [12], which said its toll includes civilians, security forces and "civilian hostages". Further, the report says, and I quote - "The new count includes those taken hostage on October 7 by the Palestinian militant group and whose deaths have since been confirmed." EkoGraf (talk) 01:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

It also says that this is the toll from the attack, which is why I am asking you if you have a third party source telling us how to interpret this, rather than us engaging in WP:OR - do you? BilledMammal (talk) 01:45, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

FYI, your assumption that they add recovered bodies to the toll is incorrect. On the 25th five bodies, all killed on October 7, were recovered, but the most recent figures are only two higher than the figures from mid-July - 1197 to 1195. BilledMammal (talk) 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I am not engaging in OR, please keep WP:GOODFAITH. I will quote the source again... "The new count includes those taken hostage on October 7 by the Palestinian militant group and whose deaths have since been confirmed." At the time 14. So, if they include only those killed on October 7th, they confirmed their deaths when their bodies were recovered. It has been stated multiple times in regards to the bodies of hostages recovered since then that some of them were killed on October 7th, but their bodies taken to Gaza (these are most certainly counted by AFP). Because of those, we should remove the separate hostages toll because it most definetly includes these as well, resulting in doublecounting. Another reason is because the 42 assumed deaths also includes soldiers as well, thus increasing unjustifiable the civilian death toll. Add 815 confirmed civilian deaths, no problem, but remove the separate hostages toll, because at least some of them (the ones who died on Oct. 7th) are obviously included in the 815 as well (confirmed by AFP). If you want, we can do some research, find sources, and add separately civilian hostage deaths who were definetly confirmed to have died after October 7th. EkoGraf (talk) 11:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I have been checking the numbers of losses and their sources and currently, there are varying numbers of losses depending how the given Israeli source label them. For instance The Times of Israel that is the most dedicated and reliable source for this type of information in an article of 28 July 2024; list the number of IDF casualties at 689 while a Israeli Goverment page cite the names of 680 servicemen killed here. Sadly there is no distiction if they were on duty or reservist soldiers. We should take the data as it comes with the term of IDF "servicemen" or "soldiers". Any distintion of the given number of IDF soldiers killed by their status in the Army would be unnesesary and will be WP:OR, if there is not a direct source indicating those alleged status.Mr.User200 (talk) 02:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC) ::Found another Source with 689 names of IDF soldiers killed during the war. 1. And as you can see there are two newly aditions of two IDF soldiers killed on 7 October, 2023 that their funerals were held in 28 July 2024. What I want to note with this comment is that there is still casualty recording and bodies recoveries and identification taking place, its premature to start making separate tallies until the conflict reach a ending phase. Currently I recomend to simply cite IDF losses from that very last site and civilians losses from the Times of Israel.Mr.User200 (talk) 02:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Mr.User200:, somehow we managed to resolve the issue of the IDF's tally. However, the issue now is in regards to the AFP's tally of the civilian victims of October 7th. AFP previously stated [13] "The new count includes those taken hostage on October 7 by the Palestinian militant group and whose deaths have since been confirmed." And during a breakdown of the victims they said (at the time) the toll includes 796 civilians, 379 members of the security forces and "14 civilian hostages". Since then the AFP's count has increased only slightly, and each time after new bodies were recovered. BilledMammal's view is they include hostages killed on October 7th only. I have suggested a compromise that we include HRW's report that AFP's latest figures includes 815 civilian deaths, but to remove that separate figure of hostage deaths, because it most definetly includes hostage deaths that were subsequently confirmed, resulting in doublecounting and an unjustifiable increased number of civilian deaths. Your opinion? EkoGraf (talk) 11:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 July 2024 (Belligerents section)

add united states to Belligerents section on the israel side as they passed a aid package sending weapons to israel 173.72.3.91 (talk) 02:20, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done - Please seek consensus first. The belligerents section is primarily for countries and other entities that have engaged in combat, which the US has not. - ZLEA _T\^C 03:40, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 July 2024

since 9 are killed and 87 are injured from israel in 2024 Israeli strikes on Yemen i think they should be added inside the template 173.206.1.59 (talk) 17:12, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 13:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Unconfirmed in mohamed deif

why there is unconfirmed after deif and not marawan issa because hamas didn't confirm marawan issa death also so either both are unconfirmed or both to not have unconfirmed between brackets أحمد توفيق (talk) 15:57, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

As far as I am aware Hamas did not comment or deny Marwan Issa being assassinated. With Mohammed deif they denied his assassination, and with Ismail haniye they acknowledged it even before the IDF did The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

maybe "disputed" is a better word for it? given most are unconfirmed. FourPi (talk) 16:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

If we don't know, we shouldn't say anything except we don't know = unconfirmed Selfstudier (talk) 16:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Can we update casualties of Israeli soldiers using this source

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra14024678 is the source. Pachu Kannan (talk) 01:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Add us, iran as belligerents

I think it is self explanatory 2601:40F:4400:8420:2860:2FD2:ED43:691E (talk) 20:20, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I would also support this, but with a “supported by” as the usa is not an active combatant yet The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 14:46, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Neither Iran nor the US are directly involved in this war. Both countries' military involvement in the region are part of the larger 2024 Iran–Israel conflict, and therefore including them in this infobox as belligerents would be misleading. - ZLEA _T\^C 15:47, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

American estimate of dead combatants in Gaza

in the [h] note next to the casualties of the Gaza strip, in the "Per US intelligence:" category, it is stated that 9,000 to 12,000 combatants were killed. This figure was cited from a Reuters article. However when reading the article, it is stated that: "The enclave's ruling group has been reduced to between 9,000 and 12,000 fighters, according to three senior U.S. officials familiar with battlefield developments, down from American estimates of 20,000-25,000 before the conflict. " Subtracting the numbers, the amount of combatants killed according to the US intelligence is between 8,000 to 16,000. Stone fridge (talk) 19:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Stupid figures I don't feel like having anything to do with, but if somebody wants to fix the template can I sugges just repeating what Reuters said and not get Wikipedia involved in making up more figures by subtrcting two ranges from ech other. NadVolum (talk) 11:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

"Reduced to between 9,000 and 12,000 fighters" seems like they're saying that the original number, 20,000-25,000, was reduced to 9,000-12,000, not reduced by 9,000-12,000. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 13:14, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Scope

@Jonesey95: There is no requirement for prior discussion to enact any changes per WP:BOLD. Do you have any concerns relating to the merits of this edit? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I do not have any opinion on the content. The edit resulted in broken syntax. You can check "Page information" for Lint errors. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jonesey95: I understand that you would not object to the edit given the lack of broken syntax? And any idea how to fix it? Makeandtoss (talk) 11:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Ensure that every tag that is opened is also closed. Any tag that is opened inside a template or other tag needs to be closed inside the template, or before the other tag is closed. Check the Page information page for Lint errors. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jonesey95: Honestly I have no idea how to do that. Where can I seek technical support? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Anyone? Makeandtoss (talk) 14:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jonesey95 what is broken? FourPi (talk) 10:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

(tag me in the reply please) FourPi (talk) 10:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

FourPi, there is nothing broken now. This large change removed tags that were necessary to close li, ul, and div tags that had been opened. Because the edit was undiscussed and broke the syntax, I reverted it with an appropriate edit summary. Re tech support, if you do not know how to make an edit to a page that contains complex syntax, post on the talk page saying what you would like to have removed, and ask for someone else to make the edit. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Sort of the opposite. I was looking for things I might be able to help fix. But if nothing needs fixing, that's ok, I'll find something else to work on. FourPi (talk) 16:05, 14 August 2024 (UTC)