Template talk:Lang-ka

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Adding question mark (link to alphabet article)?[edit]

Hello, is it possible in any way to edit this template? I think it would be better if we add little question mark at the end of {{{1}}} linking it to the Georgian alphabet like it has in this template. Currently it is blocked and I am unable to edit it. Can anyone help? Jaqeli (talk) 21:43, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Here is the example how would it look like:

Nihongo links to a help page with instructions for installing Japanese fonts, so this is nothing like it. — Lfdder (talk) 09:35, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree with Lfdder on this one. Unless there are other examples in which a superscript question mark is used to link to an article about a non-English alphabet, we shouldn't be doing this here. The proper solution, if an article contains a non-trivial amount of Georgian text, would be to include the {{Contains Georgian text}} template near the start of the article. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 20:30, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I guess you guys are right. But what do you think about the possibility of updating those very templates of those languages who have their own distinctive scripts linking them to their script articles? Like Hebrew, Chinese, Greek etc.? Jaqeli (talk) 13:25, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Examples would be:

  • (Greek: something in Greek?)
  • (Hebrew: something in Hebrew‎‎?)
  • etc.
Sorry, Jaqeli, I hadn't even thought of their point, since I've never experienced the problem they're talking about. I suspect that pretty-much everybody has Georgian factory-installed, so no-one's going to be presented with a bunch of boxes like they will for more obscure scripts. Same with Greek and Hebrew. Personally, I find the little question marks distracting: They keep making me think there's something dubious about the entry that needs to be fixed. — kwami (talk) 18:12, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I've also did not thought about it honestly. Thought it was for scripts somehow. Thanks for your comment also. And thanks Rich and Lffder as well. Jaqeli (talk) 18:34, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 2 August 2014[edit]

I suggest that we add automated transliteration provided by {{ka-translit}}. Technically speaking, I think adding this snippet

, {{#ifeq: {{{2|}}} | tr | {{ka-translit|{{{1}}}}} | }}

or

 {{small|({{#ifeq: {{{2|}}} | tr | {{ka-translit|{{{1}}}}} | }})}}

just before <noinclude> will do just fine without breaking its current usage.

Dixtosa (talk) 12:58, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: @Dixtosa: Sorry, but I think we need a broader consensus before we can add automatic transliterations to this template. It seems useful to me, but perhaps not everyone would want it. Also, we need to make sure that there aren't any transliterations that have been added manually in articles after this template - for such articles, adding automatic transliteration would mean that we had two transliterations, one after the other, which is obviously not ideal. Perhaps ask at the relevant WikiProjects for opinions? Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 19:32, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
|answered=yes
Wait what? is it over? I didn't even have a chance to support my proposal! (well I thought more thoughtful person would judge this request).
And yet, FWIW I will point out some things you have not noticed, and might stay unnoticed by some later.
First, what kind of broader consensus are you talking about? Just because people have not replied (for 2 days only) doesn't mean there is no one absolute truth.
I guess you didn't read the snippets, right? Otherwise you would spot this
{{#ifeq:  | tr |
What this snippet means is that it creates an additional parameter for the template which if equal to "tr" instructs it to use automated transliteration.
What is even worse is you didn't read non-code part too!. Otherwise, please, explain to me what part of "without breaking its current usage" did you not understand? That phrase actually says it will do no harm to anything. So, if manual transliteration is provided one has two good things to do:
  1. either do nothing, because w/o the "tr" parameter the updated template's behaviour would be the same as it is now.
  2. delete manual transliteration and append "tr" to the end.
As for "not everyone would want it", I repeat, automated transliteration will not happen by default.
As for other WikiProjects (thanks for mentioning! : ]]), this automated transliteration have been successfully used for years on en:wikt.
Other trivia & rationale:
  • The Georgian language does allow us this luxury of automated transliteration (not all languages can be auto-transliterated).
  • From my understanding, there are separate language templates (we have {{lang-ka|....}}, rather than {{lang|ka|..}}), only because to make it easier to work on one language. In other words, these templates (lang-XX) are designed to to be changed in this exact way I'm proposing.
  • And most importantly, do I have to state the obvious? That consistent transliteration is good. Imagine how confused one would be if he sees different letters for one Georgian letter! (and believe me this is the case now).
  • It has another advantage, if one day we decide simpler transliteration is better we could w/o using any bots in just one edit do the trick.
@Jaqeli: @Kober:, say your piece :D. --Dixtosa (talk) 20:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
@Dixtosa: Ok, ok, no need to panic. :) Sorry, it looks like I completely missed that the automatic transliteration part would be optional, which means that this won't break existing manual transliterations, just as you said. I've added some code to Template:Lang-ka/sandbox that does what you want, as well as adding the proper HTML lang attribute. In the sandbox I have used italics for the transliteration, as that is recommended by the Manual of Style, and I have used a comma as a separator as that seemed neater than just using a space. Does that look acceptable to you? Also, the reason that I didn't give you time to support your proposal is that that isn't what edit requests are for - they are only for proposals that are already supported by consensus. As it turns out that I had mistaken the nature of the proposal, this isn't so important here any more, so I think we can go ahead with this without asking for more input. I did wonder whether people would want to comment on your proposed interface, but using the second parameter to specify formatting is similar to what other templates do (e.g. {{IPA-ka}}), so I can't see any real problems there. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 09:44, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

I totally support the new changes. The update will be much help for the non-Georgian speakers. Also, adding tr at the end of the template is beautiful. Also it will be upon a person who can choose between the two options. One can have only Georgian lettering without translit and if needed one can have with translit so it won't be obligatory but one can freely choose which one to use. Beautiful. Also, I think it would be better if we link upon the translit version the link of Romanization of Georgian article so people who will link on it will be directed to an article which would let them know how the Georgian translit works with sounds. Jaqeli 11:50, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

@Jaqeli: I've linked the transliteration to Romanization of Georgian in the sandbox. Is that what you meant? — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 12:27, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius: Yes that's it. Thanks. I think it would work great. When would you insert that coding in this template? Jaqeli 12:39, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
@Jaqeli and Dixtosa: I've made the edit now, and I've also created Template:Lang-ka/doc, as this template now needs custom documentation. Please reactivate the edit request template if there is anything else that needs to be done. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 16:54, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius: Thanks. I think it would be better if the transliteration text's size would be a bit smaller and have it roman type instead of making it italic as it is now. Can you please change it? Jaqeli 18:03, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Smaller I can do, but the italics are necessary to satisfy Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Foreign terms. Let's wait to hear from Dixtosa before we change anything else. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 18:08, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Mr. Stradivarius: What should we do with Template:Lang-ka/sandbox? Shouldn't it be deleted? Jaqeli 18:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

No, we normally keep sandbox templates around - see Category:Template sandboxes. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 18:22, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
(even before the first thing): could you be once in a life not that impatient and not decide matters in days in your own style (I didn't vote for this Georgian: ბაგრატიონი, translit.: bagrat'ioni).
First off, Mr. Stradivarius, the second snippet differs from the first one by not only a comma, but also parentheses... So, we have to take a closer look at it.
Secondly, linking transliterations with [[]] is ugly and kinda confusing (I would take it for a wikipedia article with that name). For how we deal with linking in en:wikt take as an example en:wikt:მაგიდა I really like that • symbol there and would prefer to see something like that.--Dixtosa (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
@Dixtosa: I don't have any problems with changing any of that, as long as it satisfies the Manual of Style. I don't think we have consensus for what exactly to do yet though, so I've disabled the {{edit protected}} template until a consensus can be found. Once you've agreed with Jaqeli about what to do, please reactivate the edit request and I (or another admin) will update the template. Remember, protected edit requests are only for edits that already have consensus (and sorry if I was too quick off the mark this time). — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 19:50, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Right now the translit is seperated with comma and I think we should remove it. As for adding the bullet that's totally not necessary thus we shouldn't add it. The translit should be as clean as possible for a viewer and no need for those additional marks there. As I've stated above, I think the translit text's size should be changed to a bit smaller version and the italic should get straight. Jaqeli 20:13, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

@Dixtosa: Anything you agree or not? Let's get this done already. Jaqeli 12:24, 8 August 2014 (UTC)


Variants[edit]

  • (Georgian: ბაგრატიონი, bagrat'ioni)
  • (Georgian: ბაგრატიონი (bagrat'ioni))
  • support
  • (Georgian: ბაგრატიონი (bagrat'ioni))
  • (Georgian: ბაგრატიონი tr (bagrat'ioni))
  • (Georgian: ბაგრატიონი, translit.: bagrat'ioni)
  • (Georgian: ბაგრატიონი (translit.: bagrat'ioni))
  • support

--Dixtosa (talk) 13:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

@Dixtosa: What about this?

  • (Georgian: ბაგრატიონი Transliteration: bagrat'ioni)
  • (Georgian: ბაგრატიონი TR: bagrat'ioni)

Jaqeli 15:08, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

@Mr. Stradivarius: Me and @Dixtosa: reached a consensus on my talk page on this version:

So please make changes into the template. Thanks. Jaqeli 18:26, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

@Mr. Stradivarius: Would you please make changes? Jaqeli 19:21, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

@Jaqeli: I've made the changes - sorry for the wait. I've kept the italics, though, as they are needed per the Manual of Style. For future requests, you might get a quicker response by reactivating the {{edit protected}} template, as then the request will be seen by other admins and not just by me. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 23:37, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius: Thank you. Jaqeli 11:01, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius: You've made it italics but why didn't you make the transliterated text in a smaller version? The version we agreed upon was a smaller version like bagrat'ioni. Please change it to smaller size. Jaqeli 23:27, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, that was my mistake - fixed. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 23:35, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius: No, not that small but this small like this coding is {{small|bagrat'ioni}}
This should be the result:
  • (Georgian: ბაგრატიონი Transliteration: bagrat'ioni) Jaqeli 00:00, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
The {{small}} template uses the <small>...</small> HTML tag, but that tag has taken on a new meaning in HTML 5. Instead of just meaning small text, it now means "side comments and small print", and shouldn't be used as part of a page's main content. See here for an overview. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 00:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius: In this case then please revert back the last change because it is way too small and the readers won't be able to read anything. Link to Transliteration should be small but the transliterated text let it be the normal size. Jaqeli 13:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
@Jaqeli: Done. The text should be the correct size now, although I didn't use <small>...</small> tags again for the reasons I've already mentioned. Next time, you can just reactivate the edit request for stuff like this - there's no need to keep leaving me messages on my talk page. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 13:46, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

req[edit]

@Mr. Stradivarius: Can you please change Transliteration: to just tr.? It's more shorter and better. Jaqeli 15:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Not sure about that - "tr." could mean a lot of things, and for many people I suspect it would be far from obvious that it means "transliteration". (It's quite a scholarly word to begin with, in fact.) — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 15:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius: Yes but it will be linked on Romanization of Georgian as we have it now. There can be no confusion as it is linked. Jaqeli 15:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
translit.: is unambiguous. Just saying... --Dixtosa (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius: Can you change it to translit. then? Jaqeli 21:43, 1 July 2015 (UTC)