User talk:Jimmy/1

Messages

Re: Edit War

First stating that it's Canadian is needed in the first paragraph as that is the norm for all/most other articles regarding tv series regardless whether it is in the info box or not. Secondly, it's perfered to use the overall French language rather then Quebec French, if you want I would accept French language . 99.236.63.51 (talk) 23:42, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Your VandalProof Application

Thank you for your interest in VandalProof, Jimmy Lavoie. As you may know, VP is a very powerful program, and in fact the just released 1.3 version has even more power. Because of this we must uphold strict protocols before approving a new applicant. Regretfully, I have chosen to decline your application at this time. The reason for this is that:

You do not yet have enough edits in the main namespace.

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Non-English versions of the Simpsons

Why?! It's not a vandalism! --Jaro7788 (talk) 05:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

French version

D'où tiens tu ta sources concernant le fait que Matt Groening préfère la traduction des Simpson en version Québécoise ? Et si oui pourrais tu le justifier. Je me souviens clairement d'un interview donné par le doubleur d'Homer, parlant des premières saison de doublage, il y disait que M Groening serait venu pour approuver le choix des comédiens pour le doublage. Finalement il révèle que Groening leur aurait dit qu'il s'agissait de la plus fidèle. Alors je sais bien qu'il y a une nuance entre la traduction la voix des acteurs etc. Mais d'un la version Québécoise est éloigné au niveau traduction puisque changeant pour les adaptés au Québec et que les voix ne sont pas dans le même genre de timbre. Je ne veux pas mettre en cause le débat sur qui est légitime ou non. J'apprécie la version Québécoise. Mais je veux parler de la justesse des dires que tu avances ou savoir si finalement Groening n'aurait pas dit ça à tous, ou même les acteurs pour se flatter.

D'autre par l'article en soit comporte certaines erreurs, sur le type d'accent de certains personnages etc. Ayant vécu au Québec je comprends que vous puissiez parfois avoir du mal avec certain accent francais. Par exemple Homer pour les français n'a pas d'accent Parisien, il n'a tout simplement pas d'accent traduisant d'un quelconque appartenance régionale française, en revanche je comprends que pour vous cela puisse sonner Parisien. J'ai vu que tu as recorrigé pas mal de choses, je ne me suis donc pas aventurer à faire des changements de nouveau, mais avant tout de t'en parler.

Zazpiakbat (talk) 05:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Je n’ai pas «avancé ces dires», j’ai remit en place la version dans laquelle elle était depuis plusieurs temps avant que tu la modifie en éloge pour la France, n’apportant pas plus de sources. Si tu réussis à trouver une source fiable (neutre), je serais prêt à la croire. Il ne faut surtout pas se fier aux acteurs de doublage, puisque les deux voix francophones d’Homer ont affirmé que Matt Groening préférait la version qu’ils doublaient (québécoise et française). Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec! ^talk 20:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Quebec French

I've reverted your change. I feel saying Québécois instead of "Quebecers" in an article about Quebec French is like saying repeatedly "WASP Americans" or perhaps "English-speaking Americans" instead of "Americans" in an article about American English, with the additional disadvantage of being vague. It unnecessarily introduces imprecise ethnic connotations. Joeldl (talk) 04:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that is true. It was a surprise to me to learn that Québécois in English is widely used as being synonym with "French Canadians of Quebec". Some, for political reasons, go as far as to say that this is what the word also generally means in the French language, which is patently false.

While for sure there are a lot of English speakers who, perhaps because of their awareness of Quebec's history and culture, think of "Quebecers" and Québécois as essentially synonymous, one being the translation of the other, much like French/Français, Canadian/Canadien or American/Américain, the political climate (and maybe the absence of a true and respectful dialogue across languages) in Quebec and Canada has charged the word Québécois, when used in an English sentence, with much vagueness, to say the least, as Joeldl explains.

It is my opinion presently, after a few years of experience on Wikipedia, that the the French word Québécois is better left translated as "Quebecer" and, unless with mean to refer to French-speaking Quebecers as a distinct group among the super-group of all Quebecers, we should avoid Québécois. In fact, even in this case, we really should say "French-speaking Quebecers" or "Francophone Quebecers" anyway, for it is much clearer, and use Québécois strictly when saying for example: "In French, Quebecers is Québécois. The majority of Quebecers being French-speaking, the majority of Quebecers refer to themselves as Québécois.

It is true however that as an adjective, the word "Quebecer" cannot be used without breaking some unwritten rule of the English language. We therefore must use "Quebec", which somehow doesn't always sound appropriate. What can we do: natural languages were never meant to be perfect. They all have their weird quirks. ;-) -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I should better explain why it is unnecessary to specify "francophone" here. Most people would write

Canadians say "running shoes", not "sneakers" or "trainers"

in an article on Canadian English, rather than writing "English Canadians" everywhere. Similarly, I would write

Canadians say "échalotes", not "oignons jeunes."

Many English-speakers might instinctively feel the need to write "French Canadians" here, but I disagree with them. (Writing "French Canadian" in one case and just "Canadian" in the other would disregard the dual nature of Canada, in my opinion.)

In any event, in the case of Quebec, specifying "francophone Quebecer" or "Québécois" is even less necessary than specifying "English Canadian" would have been in the "running shoes" example, because francophones are more of a majority in Quebec than English Canadians are in Canada. Joeldl (talk) 13:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I see. By the way, concerning English language in Quebec, I want you to know that we use, most of the time, American expressions rather than Canadian expressions (currently, my Firefox dictionary is set on "American English" :-P). I learned English and the biggest influence we get is the one from USA. We love USA. ;-) As you saw, I like to share my culture, hehe. ;-) Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec libre! ^talk 21:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm an anglophone Quebecer and I say:

running shoes, not sneakers

expressway, not freeway

zed, not zee,

sofa, not couch

soft drink, not soda or pop

all dressed

And many more words. All of these are typically Canadian or even in some cases mainly Quebec words, or at least are more common in Canada than in the US.

Also, unlike most Americans and even other Canadians, Quebecers pronounce marry differently from merry. (In the US, I always find it hilarious when a guy called Aaron introduces himself as "Erin.") And like many Canadians, I don't rhyme news and snooze. And just to be fair to Americans (at least those across the border in Plattsburgh), they distinguish between cot and caught whereas most Canadians (including virtually all Montrealers) don't. The one thing is, I've never pronounced "schedule" as "shedule" like Peter Mansbridge, only as "skedule".

You're seriously underestimating the extent to which Montrealers are like other Canadians. To be honest, some of these differences between Canadians and Americans are fading, but not much faster in Montreal than in Toronto. See [1] and [2] for examples.

I say highway, pop and couch, running shoes, zed, and all dressed. You'd have to break my arm to make me say zee or soda. Nevertheless, I'd say my English is probably more Canadian than American because most of the English speakers I interacted with were Canadians. I guess it is a question of the milieu in which you do your immersion. -- Mathieugp (talk) 12:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Quebec and Saskatchewan seem to be just about the only places in the world people say "all dressed". Joeldl (talk) 14:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I learned and I use "couch" (not "sofa"), "sneakers" and sometimes "running shoes", "pop" and "soft drink", "highway", etc. But I pronounce "schedule" as "skedule". I suppose it depends on the region you're living and where you learned English (I did in Lac-Saint-Jean). From which region are you from? Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec libre! ^talk 21:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it's funny pop is an American expression, specifically Mid-West, soda is also an American expression, albeit a southern and east coast thing. I grew up in Québec, with a Québecois Pure-Laine féderalist father and an American (Detroit) Seperatist mother. We spoke American English in the house, and Québec French outside of the house as I went to a French School (we lived in a Francophone community). I laugh also becaise milieu is also a Canadian English expression, as it does not appear frequently in American Usage! It is probably used more in Québec English, as it's a French word! Love the discussion here, and find it very amusing to see that the more things change the more they are different! Do you say "Ca-ra-mel" or "Car-mel"? Do you pronounce route as "root" or "route"? I live in the USA now, again, and personally say Zed, as the last letter of the alphabet and this causes me grief with what I call uneducated Americans, mostly government workers, think I'm saying the name "Zed" and say back to me "Zee E D"... Do you say garage like the brits ("Gar-ige")? And don't get me started on how they massacre my last name! That's okay cause the French in Québec could never get my first name right! I was everything from Sharoum, to Schwan to even Shang! What about the dialects out west in BC, or in da prairies? And let's not forget about Newfies. My what books could we write on that subject, eh? (No I do not actually use that, I'm not a Youpper (Upper Peninsula of Michigan). ) Well this has been a blast, and Merci-Buckets for being so fine!--Mrboire (talk) 15:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

VRAK.TV

Hi, this message is in regards to your recent edits to VRAK.TV. I have a few issues with it, first in regards to the launch date; the official launch date of the service is September 1, 1988. This was the date that Canal Famille launched and Canal Famille is the same channel as VRAK.TV. Canal Famille simply changed its name or rebranded as VRAK.TV on January 2, 2001. So the preferred date to use in the infobox is the date the service launched which was September 1, 1988.

Secondly, the slogan you say is "Libérez vos bibites!". I cannot find anywhere on the website that mentions or refers to that phrase as its slogan. "Je suis VRAK.TV" is mentioned throughout the website though. This seems to still be the slogan of the service so it should be reinstated. Thanks musimax. (talk) 22:08, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Canal Famille was owned by another company and was really different. We should do the same as on the Francophone Wikipedia (VRAK.TV) and put January 2, 2001 for the launch date and create a different article for Canal Famille. Secondly, I watch VRAK.TV everyday and they now promote: "VRAK.TV, libérez vos bibittes!" ("Libérez vos bibittes" as slogan). It's also written in this press release (search for "Libérez vos bibittes" in the text and you'll find: "VRAK.TV - General Branding/Image Campaign - Libérez vos bibittes". Cordially, Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec libre! ^talk 02:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Canal Famille may have been originally owned by a different company but Astral eventually came to own the channel and what now is called VRAK.TV. These 2 channels are the same channel, they may have been different in terms of the programming they aired but it is still the same channel used under the same licence that VRAK.TV uses now. Canal Famille simply changed its name to VRAK.TV. It's the same sort of thing as talktv and MTV Canada. Talktv launched in 2000 but it "rebranded" and changed its name to MTV and thus picked up a whole new slate of programming that fits with MTV. Thus the proper date to use is the very first date that the channel launched under. Maybe your confusing Canal Famille with TVJQ because TVJQ was completely different ? But anyways the French Wikipedia page should be changed as well.

As for the slogan, in that press release it doesn't state for a fact that the phrase is its slogan. If you look above in the Or category where Canal D is, under "General Branding/Image Campaign" (the same as what you stated was for VRAK.TV) it says "Campagne Mardis dangereux et Vendredis policiers" and I can pretty much guarantee that is not Canal D's slogan. So this press release doesn't prove that this phrase is VRAK.TV's slogan. From what I can tell, that phrase looks like the corporate name of the "Je suis VRAK.TV " ad campaign maybe, but not its slogan. I cannot find that phrase anywhere on its website and if it was their slogan it would be on their website somewhere. However what was posted on Wikipedia before as its slogan "Je suis VRAK.TV" is still shown many times. I say put "Je suis VRAK.TV" back as the slogan until some concrete proof is given to show the new slogan if there is one. I think that's fair. Thanks musimax. (talk) 03:15, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I understand the first point. For the second one: before each show, and during the show, they were airing, two months ago (I guess), a little publicity telling "Je suis VRAK.TV"... and that was the slogan, as "Méchant Canal" was when VRAK.TV launched. But now, it’s telling in the publicity: "Libérez vos bibittes!". Anyway, I’ll try to contact VRAK.TV to ask them what exactly is the official slogan. Will it be a good reference? Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec libre! ^talk 04:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah that would be a good reference. musimax. (talk) 16:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free media (Image:VrakTV Carte Bleu.png)

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English in Quebec

Err, English is not an official language of Quebec, but it is an official language in Quebec, as it is an official language of Canada. The map is otherwise problematic; Anglophones make up a bigger percentage of Quebec's population than South Africa's, for instance. Trying to gradiate it like this is tricky, but excluding just Quebec is very unbalanced. I've been playing a bit with English-language maps, maybe something more representative is called for.

Native Speakers.

All speakers.

But treating Quebec specially without also duely treating everyone else as such creates an undue balance. English is an official language in Quebec, so there's no problem there. WilyD

Quebec cannot remove English as an official language everywhere in Canada. No more than Alberta could remove French as an official language in Alberta (I'm sure they'd love to, but French is an official language in Alberta, even though it's not an official language of Alberta. English is especially complicated to draw these maps for because of it's lack of official status in some places (America, Britain) and all that. But since English is an official language of Canada, we should just colour the whole country one colour (since no other country is so divided on that map). My "language knowledge" maps are problematically incomplete (although I think almost all the other native speakers should be ~0%, except maybe Cameroon). WilyD 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Quebec sovereignty movement

Salut, je te laisse un message pour savoir ce que tu pense de l'introduction sur Quebec sovereignty movement. Dans celui-ci, il est inscrit que la souveraineté peut aussi vouloir dire plus d'autonomie pour le Québec tout en restant dans le Canada, ce qui est bien entendu faux et confondu avec l'autonomisme de Mario Dumont. J'ai esseyé de corriger l'information mais cela a été réverté. J'ai esseyé d'en parler avec djasso sur sa page de discussion mais il est vraiment convaincu que l'ADQ est toujours un parti souverainiste et que donc le terme autonomie est la même chose que souveraineté. Qu'est ce que t'en pense?Lanççelot (talk) 04:24, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

En effet, la souveraineté est un concept voulant que le Québec se sépare du Canada. Je vais voir ce que je peux faire. Cordialement, Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec! ^talk 16:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

National Hockey League

This page is about the NHL itself, not the Stanley Cup. And in the NHL, the Montreal Canadiens won the Stanley Cup a total of 23 times. Please stop adding 24. In addition, you misued rollback here. Rollback should not be used in content disputes, but only when reverting a clearly unproductive edit. Thanks. - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm really sorry. I was not adding 24 Cups anymore, as I understood the article. It was not really clear. But, now it's ok. Thanks a lot for your information. Happy New Year! Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec! ^talk 01:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

No worries. Happy New Year to yourself as well. - Rjd0060 (talk) 01:57, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

But if you go to the Montréal Candiens website, they show 24 Cups! Go Wings.

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Canada - 90210

Global's lisitings are mentioned at the top of the main page, alongside the CW's listings. As for Showcase Diva, don't know what source you're using, but they don't air 90210 - I checked their schedule.

As for Vrak.TV, what's your source that says this fall, the network will air 90210? Aren't you a little early? Even the American networks haven't decided what they'll air this fall for new and returning shows, or what's being cancelled this spring. 76.68.220.100 (talk) 05:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Even if it is mentioned at the top, Canada must be include in "International listings" as it is apart of United States—it's another nation. For Showcase Diva, I don't know this channel. That was added before I touch it and I was simply putting back information you were deleting. On VRAK.TV, they acquired the series and are expecting to air it this Fall. Information can change, but that's always happening in Wikipedia. I'll add the source right now. Thanks, Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec! ^talk 23:55, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

If you had ready my comments properly, then you would have seen why I removed Canada from the International listings. Doesn't matter now, someone else decided to remove the table all together.

[quote]Vive le Québec![/quote] Cute message. I didn't know their were any French Quebecers on this sight, since this isn't a Quebec thing. Hopefully everyone will understand it. 76.67.182.188 (talk) 03:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

There are a lot of Québécois (most French Québécois are bilingual — more than any other Canadians) on Wikipedia EN & FR, and I'm proud to be one who is representing Quebec here. What do you mean by "since this isn't a Quebec thing"? Is it supposed to be an American or Canadian thing? ;-) What about you, where are you from? Have a nice day, Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec! ^talk 03:14, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Lavoie, it is incorrect to say that most French Québécois are bilingual, there is a large portion of the population that does not have even a basic grasp of English, unless you count the English words that they use like "week end" or "parking". I do know that the school systems have tried to increase the curriculum and even start ESL earlier in grade school, but as someone who is a native speaker of both English and French, it is far from adequate. A majority of French Québécois also have a disdain for English speaking people, the expression "On est au Québec, parle Francais" is still frequently heard. The laws of Québec also prevent English to be used, even in predominantly English neighborhoods, or tourist areas like Mont-Tremblant.--Mrboire (talk) 11:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

There are still more bilingual Québécois than bilingual Canadians. And "weekend" is not often used in Quebec (but is always used in France). Anyway, I think people younger than 40 years old are more bilingual than people older than 45 years old. In Quebec, we learn English to be able to talk with English speakers in English countries. I don't use English in Quebec, as in my opinion, Quebec is French as France is. It's not racism, it's only about respecting Quebec culture. I like English speakers, but I think that if they come in Quebec, they should learn / use French as they know Quebec is French. If they want to continue using English, then they should move to Canada. You learned French and that's really nice. That means you respect Quebec. Sincerely yours, Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec! ^talk 17:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Lavoie I do not disagree about the percentage being higher, but it is incorrect to say that Most French Speakers are Bilingual. Your personal experience is not a statement reflecting the Province, which by the way is in Canada, as a whole. The younger Generation that you mention is also the more reluctant generation when it comes to learning English. Quebec Culture is predominantly French, but you can not suppress the language of people who live in historically English communities, that is racism. People on the west Island of Montréal have lived there for their entire history as English speaking people, they have never been Francophone and should not be forced to learn a language that they do not use at all. I myself am a strong proponent of the French language and grew up in a French only speaking community. I have traveled throughout the whole Province and have found that only a small portion of educated people speak English. And yes statement like "Vivre le Québec" are racist. --Mrboire (talk) 21:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

English Language

Mr. Lavoie, I would appreciate if you changed your "user" box on your English language to be at a level 3. You are falsely representing yourself here, as saying that your primary language is English. From everything I have read of yours, English is not your primary language. I do not mean to offend or insult you, but you are a native French speaking person that has a high level of proficiency in English, but not high enough to say that you speak as well as a native speaker. Your sentence structure reflects Canadian French and not Native English. I understand that when living in an area that is devoid of Native English speaking people to compare oneself with, like Quebec, one has a tendency to over estimate ones abilities.

I would be willing to help you in any way possible. I have a unique perspective having grown up in Quebec myself to an English speaking separatist mother and a French speaking federalist father. I currently reside in the United States, but frequently return to my roots.

--Mrboire (talk) 11:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Mrboire, thank you for your suggestion and your precisions. Also, I'm happy to know that there are English speaking separatists in Quebec. Where exactly do you live in USA? That seems a nice country. Sincerely yours, Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec! ^talk 17:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Please do not skirt around the issue, your reply here just emphasizes that your level of English is not that of a native speaker. I truly believe that you are one of the most well versed French Canadians that I have come across in many years. But you can not claim to be an English Speaker at the level you have.--Mrboire (talk) 21:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)Ok never mind you changed it :>--Mrboire (talk) 13:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Facebook

Mr Lavoie, Are you on facebook at user 1134544994 ? Mrboire (talk • contribs) 11:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not use Facebook. Thank you for visiting my page. Jimmy Lavoie × Vive le Québec! ^talk 17:36, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Continuation de discussion Anglais.

Je voulais continuer notre discussion de l'autre jour.

In English there are certain verbs that we call helper verbs, they are verbs in their own right but they also help other verbs. Is, Have and Do are the ones that I seem to use the most, but there are more. They are similar but not exactly the same as Avoir and Être in French, they are similar in that they are used in conjunction with other verbs, but not in the exact same manner as in French.

They are often used to make questions:

Are you going to do something. Does she help you with this. Do I really need to be here right now? Have you gone completely bonkers?

But they are not exclusively for questions:

You are going to do something. She does help you with this. I really need to be here right now. You have gone completely bonkers.

So as to not re write a Wikipedia article from scratch you can go here Auxiliary verb, I just wanted to clarify as to our discussion on "do" being like "-tu" so that you would see that I was not just being a pain in the you know what and that they are not the same. Je ne connais pas tout en Français non plus, je crois que personne peut affirmer cela, meme pas moi qui a été éduqué en Français Langue maternelle au Québec. :p--Mrboire (talk) 12:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Request to move article LNI incomplete

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Quebec sovereignty movement

Hi, can you help me on the talk page of Quebec sovereignty movement? One user thinks that if sovereignty-association and sovereignty-partnership occurs, that would mean that Quebec would still be apart of Canada.Lanççelot (talk) 23:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:Logo VRAKTV.png)

⚠

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French Canadians

English doesn't need to be the universal second language of all French Canadians to merit mention in the infobox; it simply needs to be the primary second language of any significantly-sized subset of the whole community. It's also the case that there's a subset of French Canadians who don't speak or understand French at all, but only use English. We can rephrase how it's reflected in the infobox if necessary, but it does have to reflect the fact that English is used as a second language, or even as a first language, by a significant number of people who are ethnically FC. Bearcat (talk) 19:33, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

"Legislative Assembly of Quebec"

The term isn't really used in English Canada either, not when specifically referring to Quebec - that's why I reverted your change. Frankly, it's a ridiculous sentence - I'd removed it in the past, but it was added back. If you want to delete it, I'd support that. But I'd prefer not to compound the problems of this sentence by adding new ones. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 00:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a discussion on the talk page. Please add your two cents. Thanks! --Skeezix1000 (talk) 16:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

national holiday of Quebec

Salut, il y a présentement une controverse sur l'article, l'utilisateur mrboire est d'avis que la source qui mène à l'article de johnson parle que la fête exclut des minorités non canadiennes française alors qu'il y est écrit qu'elle exclut les anglo-québécois, les fédéralistes québécois, et qu'elle est tenu par les souverainistes (les séparatistes dans ses mots).Lanççelot (talk) 05:45, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Désolé, mais ce ne sont pas mes most, mais les mots de Johnson.--Never give up! Never surrender! (talk) 17:36, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

La Fête nationale est la fête de tous les Québécois. Je vois mal comment on pourrait supposer que des Québécois anglophones ou fédéralistes soient exclus de cette fête. Elle a pour but de rassembler tout le monde, non pas de les diviser. Je suis plutôt d'accord avec la forme de Mrboire, qui représente bien ce qui est dit dans la source. Sincerely, Jimmy Lavoie^talk 17:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

En fait, la forme de mrboire prétend que johnson affirme que cette fete ne représente pas les minorités non "french canadians" alors que johnson parle seulement des anglo québécois, et non du reste des minorités.Lanççelot (talk) 01:11, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

SVP ne pas confondre, ce n'est pas ma forme. Je ne suis pas nécessairement en accord ou en désacord avec M. Johnson.--Never give up! Never surrender! (talk) 01:28, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Quebec name

Our IP friend is now posting on my talkpage, feel free to jump in... Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)