Wikipedia talk:Requested moves

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Please Move[edit]

Template:RMassist must be used on Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests. Thank you, Scynthian (talk) 07:09, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

You need to make a move request as described at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves. Doug Weller talk 09:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Great, now there's a successfully filed request at Talk:British-Israel-World Federation. wbm1058 (talk) 15:03, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Someone mangled it; I fixed it back (and opposed). Dicklyon (talk) 18:56, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Or perhaps I mangled it further. The hyphenation has been fixed, and the hyphenation in the proposal was still wrong, but it was about adding "The", so I fixed it further. Dicklyon (talk) 19:05, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Request[edit]

Could someone help with the mass move of pages here? The discussion was closed but the decider didn't move the pages. MCMLXXXIX 16:42, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Done. JFG, in future if you don't have the time to move all the pages listed at a multi-move RM I would suggest leaving it for someone who does rather than closing it and taking it out of the listing. Jenks24 (talk) 06:09, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
@Jenks24: Many thanks for your help. I did another large multi-move and got sidetracked IRL before completing this one (still got a browser window open for that!) Sorry for the inconvenience, I owe you a cookie! — JFG talk 07:46, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Ah, no worries. Jenks24 (talk) 08:41, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

I always do the moves first and closure second, cleanup third unless particularly urgent (can't offhand think of an example of "urgent" but I know I've found some over the years), figuring that if I get called to glory or otherwise interrupted (I do have some higher priorities than Wikipedia, including but not only wine, women and song) in the middle that leaves the more transparent mess. The bot and macros seem written on this assumption too. Interested in other practices and rationales. Andrewa (talk) 04:55, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

  • Oh, the chaos that could happen if JFG & Andrewa started on the same RM at the same time. Maybe Template:Closing. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:01, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Lol, yeah, that could be fun… especially if it's about New York Face-smile.svgJFG talk 12:41, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Exemplary RM !vote comments[edit]

In the interest of raising the bar on the usefulness of RM commenting, how about bringing attention to some of the best ones you see out there?

Just quote the comment and include a link to it.

I'll start... --В²C 02:49, 22 February 2017 (UTC)


Examples[edit]

  • * Oppose. First, on reading policy, if two names are used just as often, we use the name without the middle initial for reasons of concision (as linked & mentioned above) in addition to the other prongs of the naming criteria (article titles policy). Second, I actually find that the middle initial is used far more often in book and academic paper titles. This said, he is even better known as just "Rothbard" but that doesn't mean we change the title to that. "Murray Rothbard" is sufficient for the article title naming criteria: the most recognizable (the name most people will call it), natural (reflecting what it's usually called), precise (unambiguously identified), and concise (not longer than necessary to identify). czar 02:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC) [1].

Discussion[edit]

You just love concision. But it's not clear what he means there by "I actually find that the middle initial is used far more often in book and academic paper titles." What is he comparing, and if he means the initial is more common, why not go with recognizability/commonname and use it? Dicklyon (talk) 03:27, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I can't prevent this from happening, but I seriously question the value of it. Each participant will choose comments that tend to align with that participant's views on various situations. What's the benefit to this activity? Omnedon (talk) 03:35, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Templated linking to standard statements would create a barrier to newcomers knowing what is going on and how to join in, and would involve a decrease in actual thinking. It would decrease the value of RM commenting. No, comments should be written in simple personal English, appropriate to the specific example, just like you speak if sitting around a table human speaking to human. If repeated cases are essentially identical, it calls for writing a guideline. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:02, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

What I liked about the particular example I gave was the methodical reliance on WP:CRITERIA. Anyway, this wasn't mean to showcase opinions we agree with, but well-made useful arguments in RM discussions. --В²C 16:30, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

And my point was that while he referenced the criteria, I was not able to quite understand the point of part of what he said about "used for more often in books..."; it sounded contradictory to his conclusion to go with the most concise. Dicklyon (talk) 16:45, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

My all-time favourite move request was Queen Anne of Romania, shortly after she died, closed by yours truly with this rationale:

The result of the move request was: Not moved. OP and supporters argue that the title is a misnomer because the subject was never legally a queen. Dissenters argue that she was nevertheless called Queen for 60+ years of her life while married to the former king, therefore making this her WP:COMMONNAME. Most of the recent RS covering her death still call her Queen Anne. Our titling policy explicitly assigns stronger weight to dominant names in usage, rather than official names. Wikipedia is also not the place to Right Great Wrongs. The policy debate started by this case, while ongoing, is trending towards supporting the common name rationale. Finally, the policy-supported title happens to be the same as the longstanding article title, so this adds some extra weight to keeping things stable. If the longstanding title were contrary to general policy, things would be more difficult to adjudicate (see the recent discussion about New York). Note that this closure is neutral about the best way to write the subject's names in the lead and to explain her queenship or lack thereof. — JFG talk 05:50, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Move supporters argued that she never was a queen, to which opponents said she was always called a queen, with both sides perceived as trying to right great wrongs. One editor raised a delightful parallel with Emperor Norton. Endorsed at move review. — JFG talk 12:54, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

What's the deal here?[edit]

Huh. It looks to me here that User:Piko 158, a new user and not an admin, deleted a page. How's that possible? Maybe I'm reading this wrong? It was a redirect page, but even if she's a Wikipedia:Page mover, that doesn't allow one to delete redirects, I don't think.

I ask because up to now if I find a redirect blocking a move I have to file a Requested Move (uncontested) which is an extra step. Is there an ability for civilians to delete redirect? Or am I misunderstanding what happened here? Herostratus (talk) 22:18, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

This is a side-effect of moving a page over a redirect. You don't need to file an RMT request if the redirect blocking the move has only a single edit in its history (and it is a redirect to the article being moved). There's info at WP:MOR. – Uanfala (talk) 22:29, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Autoconfirmed users have always been able to do this; you don't even need to be a WP:page mover. But the appearance of these moves over redirects in deletion logs is new behavior since August 2016. See the phabricator "Moving a page over the redirect leaves an abandoned row in the revision table" and the code reviewWhen moving over a redirect with no revs, there was a weird hack to delete the old redirect page... without logs, or cleaning up the orphaned revision. WHOOPS Switched it to using the standard deletion, which seems to work. Note this will produce a deletion log entry as well as a move log entry. This may scare people.
Thanks for pointing this out. I hadn't noticed that change before. wbm1058 (talk) 22:55, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Huh, OK, thanks guys. Herostratus (talk) 07:22, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

House of[edit]

I am concerned that user:Domdeparis appears to be systematically moving articles "House of..." to "...Family". I left a message on user:Domdeparis talk page:

House of Percy

I am glad to see that you reverted to edit to the redirect Percy family (diff).

I think that such a move is controversial so you need to make a WP:RM#CM request on Talk:House of Percy. -- PBS (talk) 17:01, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi @PBS: I am absolutely certain of the move of House of Percy to Percy family because House of is a term reserved for royal dynasties and not noble families as per House of. I cannot do it for technical reasons. I am surprised that you say that it would be controversial though. House of is not the accepted form in English of talking about a noble family that did not produce a royal dynasty (except in Games of Throne!). Burke's peerage refers to families and only ever uses "House of" when talking about a royal house. Domdeparis (talk) 17:16, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
If your arguments are persuasive than there will be a consensus for a move, but I think you should use WP:RM#CM. -- PBS (talk) 09:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Since I wrote this I have reverted a move of the House of Arenberg to Arenberg family. user:Domdeparis made the move with the comment 'In English"House of" is reserved for Royal dynasties see House of' (diff).

I think that user:Domdeparis may have a coherent argument for English and by extension British and Irish Nobility, but it needs to be discussed further to see if the assertion is true. If it is then general moves may be in order—although I suspect that articles such as those on the families of the Princes of Wales prior to conquest and those in Ireland before the introduction of the title King of Ireland may contain exceptions.

There is a further problem moving article from "House of ..." to "... family" causes practical problems with people including links to articles to people of the same name only vaguely related to the Noble Family for example how many Spencers are there? This issue also needs considering if article such as "House of Percy" is to be moved to "Percy family".

While argument for the systematic move of English nobility may (or may not) be accepted. There is no systematic rule for Continental European aristocracy.

For Continental European article on aristocratic families, I think that for most WP:RM#CM are needed, because in most of Europe the rules are more complicated and many of the sources that are used for such articles use "House of ..." (if only because like that for the House of Arenberg rely on Non-British sources and use "House of").

This is because there is a more complex relationship between entities such as the Holy Roman Emperor and other noble families who often held their lands to all intense and purposes as sovereign entities and had legal differentiation from non-aristocratic families (Ie formed a noble class), and the titular head of a state was not necessarily an inherited position (in law if not in practice).

See for example the relationship between Sigismund III Vasa and the other families in Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. This is also true for other families better known to the British public see for example House of Nassau. Where the article explains in the introduction:

The lords of Nassau were originally titled "Count of Nassau", then elevated to the princely class as "Princely Counts" (in German: gefürstete Grafen, i.e. Counts who are granted all legal and aristocratic privileges of a Prince).

So in summary. I think moving most British "House of ..." articles can probably be decided with one well discussed WP:RM#CM or WP:RFC as an example case to set a president on how to handle all of them. However for articles on European continental aristocracy families, because of the use in sources that are cited and the legal complications of their precise status, any such move should be done through WP:RM#CM, as deciding on the best name for the article is complex and potentially controversial.

-- PBS (talk) 10:20, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

The pages that were moved or propose that they were moved):
-- PBS (talk) 22:08, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
I am posting below my discussion originally at: this version of Talk:House_of_Visconti. Peaceray (talk) 05:25, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
House of may be reserved for royal families in England/Britain/UK, but I am unaware of any such limitation elsewhere. House of redirects to Dynasty, which states
wiktionary:dynast has this definition:
Comital refers to Count. The Count article states:
The Count article goes on to state:
Visconti or vicecomes in the Italian context means viscount. I have no doubt that the Visconti used it both in terms of being imperial vicars & in the context of signorie. The fact that they didn't have a pedigree before conquering Milan is inconsequential, as there are plenty of dynasties whose founders attained power by force and having enough wealth to raise armies. Even though they began without pedigree (although Giangaleazzo claimed to be descended from Aeneas![House of 3]), they were able to marry female descendants into the royal families of England, France, Cyprus, & the House of Wittelsbach, & had kings of England & France among their descendants. Giangaleazzo himself was able to obtain the title of Duke, which subsequently became hereditary.
For comparison, consider the House of Medici. Also consider that the House of Visconti has been included in {{Royal houses of Europe}}.
I think that based upon what I have written here, the case for continuing to call the Visconti dynasty the House of Visconti has been well established.
Peaceray (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  1. ^ Oxford English Dictionary, 3rd ed. "house, n.¹ and int, 10. b." Oxford University Press (Oxford), 2011.
  2. ^ Pine, L. G. Titles: How the King Became His Majesty. New York: Barnes & Noble, 1992. p. 73. OCLC 27827106.
  3. ^ Bueno de Mesquita, D. M. (Daniel Meredith) (2011) [1941]. Giangaleazzo Visconti, Duke of Milan (1351-1402): A Study in the Political Career of an Italian Despot (reprint ed.). Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. p. 176. ISBN 9780521234559. OCLC 746456124. 
Addendum
Two things, one for a move & one against:
  • Most other language Wikipedia article names for House of Visconti translate to "Visconti" or "Visconti family"
  • In English, however, it seems common to favor "House of" for lesser continental houses, particularly when royalty was later descended from those "houses". For example, please see this Google search:
Alternately, we could eliminate all "House of" articles by moving them to the appropriate family, e.g., Windsor family, Hanover family, Tudor family. It would serve those English Royalists right, since they snobbishly try to exclude everybody else. [Oh dear, are my republican, anti-royalist sentiments showing through? ;-) ]
Peaceray (talk) 05:48, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

The only thing that matters is WP:COMMONNAME. There is absolutely no guarantee of consistency in such matters, and especially no obligation for Wikipedia to hew to some ridiculous "only royal houses are deemed "House of" rule. If this means we have House of Percy and Kennedy family, so be it. So... I'd be strongly in favor of cautioning Domdeparis to slow down and file RMs based on that particular family, and not attempt to assert any kind of nonexistent principle about which groups are referred to as "House of" and which are referred to as "family." SnowFire (talk) 23:43, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi @SnowFire: if you want to "caution" me please feel free to do so but I believe that I am just being bold. I am as @Peaceray: puts it an English Royalist (maybe snobbish) and a descendant of some of these "Houses" and I have never heard anyone use the term "House of" when referring to the families. The tendency to use house of is supremely snobbish putting noble families on the same level as royal families. Regardless of what I think if you wish to keep House of so be it, it will make me cringe when I read it but there are worse things in life. For me the WP:COMMONNAME for royal families is house and other noble families "family" but if you don't agree I certainly won't lose any sleep over it. Domdeparis (talk) 16:05, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
@Domdeparis: Regarding WP:COMMONNAME:
Table CCCCX is entitled The Lords and Dukes of Milan of the House of Visconti, so "House of Visconti" was in use at that time in British texts. Also, I think that royal families tended to use the "House of" nomenclature for ancestors from lessor noble continental families. For instance, I suspect that the House of Lancaster would have said that Henry VI of England was descended from the House of Visconti, even though his great, great grandfather, Bernabò Visconti, seemed content to hold the lowly title of Lord of Milan as long as he had the power & wealth associated with it.
  • MacMillanDictionary.com gives this synonym for Members of royal families and the nobility:
house (noun) - an old important family, especially a royal one (especially does not mean exclusively)
Peaceray (talk) 18:27, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment -- It may be useful to have articles bringing together all the UK peerages held by a given family, where they are numerous - e.g. Neville, Percy, Howard, but this should not be allowed to spread widely, as the list article on each peerage is probably as much as we need. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:34, 26 March 2017 (UTC)