User talk:MageLam

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Holland Road, Bukit Timah

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Kolam Ayer vs. Geylang Bahru

There was none of reference provided in content about "KA" town to be changed its name into "GB" and even PAP still locating their related town office as "KA" branch. The future nearby MRT is not the reason about change of town name. Please roll back the move before your confirmation. Thank you.--Gzyeah (talk) 09:37, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I believe you are mistaken, the page was renamed as such as I am following the naming conventions set by the URA for their urban planning areas and subzones in their latest 2014 Master Plan, which can be found here. MageLam 5:44, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Appreciated for your info added at the moment. The reference source format has been modified for the better display of link(s) & text(s). Kindly being more considerate and thoughtful when you are updating the content. Thank you.--Gzyeah (talk) 12:05, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Not sure if you have ever been staying in Singapore... if yes, please try to roam around & visit the places that mentioned in your monitored articles as you can... I'm sorry to say but some of your changes looks really puzzled and a bit lose contact with reality... Especially when found you referring population details from a DE portal... Hope you can understand... Thank you.--Gzyeah (talk) 19:34, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I've been residing in Singapore all my life, what do you mean I've lost contact with reality? Well anyways, I used statistics from citypopulation.de as it is the only place so far where I can find population density and planning area size information. I myself have been walking around certain places in Singapore these past few weeks, examining most of the areas that I have mentioned in my monitored articles. I was also wondering if you are local as well? No offence, but your grammar is subpar. MageLam 7:32, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi & Morning, Lam (林?), I'm not local yet but residing in SG for more than a decade already so far. Since I'm not a English-born person, there is hard to avoid lingual fault while specially in this SingLish environment sometimes. I may only eligible to update the articles about places that I stayed or visited frequently before based on my memories & knowledge in life time. No offence as well & just reply your question honestly. Appreciated for your answer & wish you a happy editing as always. Thank you.--Gzyeah (talk) 00:05, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi there Gzyeah, thanks for the reply. Just a friendly reminder. Please, call me Mage. I rather not be referred to as "Lam". XD MageLam 8:10, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

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Renaming SG Geographical articles

Hi! I noticed that you have renamed several articles related to Singapore place names. For eg, "Dover, Singapore" to "Dover, Queenstown". However, the general convention is to use "placename, country" according to WP:NCCS#Region-specific_guidance. A more specific name such as "placename, regionname" is used only if there are multiple places with the same name in the country. As such, I moved the pages Dover, Singapore and Commonwealth, Singapore back to their original locations. In addition, I created a new article for Bidadari, Toa Payoh and restored the original article of the Bidadari Cemetery. The article on the cemetery is supposed to refer only to the cemetery itself. -- Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:52, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Noted. I do apologize for failing to follow the stated guidelines. I will be working over the next few days to restore the names of all the SG geographical articles that I have renamed. -- MageLam 10:04, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

No problem. Just to note, in some cases, your moving might actually be correct. You can let those be as they are. -- Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:36, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

In any case, I appreciate your helping out with Singapore geographical articles. Most of the articles are in a bad shape and need a lot of work. Thank you for your help. Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:38, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment. I am still unsure of which articles to rename as I have renamed most if not all of the articles with new titles. If you can find any that need appropriate renaming, do inform me. MageLam 11:14, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi! I just checked sources and found both Japanese and Chinese gardens are Islands.

Source 1 (NHB Jurong Heritage Trail Booklet) [1] Page 60 states Jurong Lake Park was constructed on the west bank of the lake, while the Chinese Garden and Japanese Garden were established on two man-made islets. A third islet forms part of the Jurong Country Club golf course.

Source 2 (URA Brochure) [2] Page 12 states More connections will be made to the two garden islands within the lake so that residents and visitors can better access the green open spaces in the gardens.

I am doing the relevant changes now. As for the page moving changes, if I find any I will change it. Lemongirl942 (talk) 14:13, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Hey there! I've heard many people talk about this a lot, but I do believe that the Japanese Gardens and Jurong Country Club sit on peninsulas. An islet should be entirely surrounded by a body of water. Despite what many sources say, a simple check on most satellite images or topographical maps pretty much contradict this. MageLam 15:59, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

But anyway, thanks for the help. I was just wondering if I could use a second hand at improving the Jurong article, which I have been working on revising recently. It seems like I've been the only person improving that article, as you can tell from the revision history. There are just a few more sections that do require clean-up and rewriting. Your help is most appreciated. MageLam 16:15, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

To be fair, from the map it does look like a peninsula to me. But unfortunately, we have to follow cited information for Wikipedia (WP:NOR). Since multiple sources say they are islets, I am willing to let it be called islands.

Sure, I will have a look at the Jurong article and see if I can help out! Thank you for letting me know. Lemongirl942 (talk) 16:38, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi, for the naming of article titles, usually the "most commonly referred name" is used, even if it might differ from the official name (see WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAMES). The official name is however, mentioned in the article lead. I would suggest not to change long standing article names without a discussion. (see WP:TITLECHANGES). It would be good to discuss before moving the article since moving seems to create problems. (I was unable to move Pulau Serangoon to Coney Island, Singapore, even though Coney Island is the more well known name).

It could also happen that sometimes, the article refers to a historic precinct or neighbourhood and contains information about it. In such cases, I would usually not prefer to change the name but rather create a new article about the present neighbourhood. Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:47, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I believe the move for Pandan, Singapore wouldn't be necessary as it is a commonly used name. I rather move Trafalgar, Singapore in my opinion. MageLam (talk) 09:52, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Also you might need this, if it is of any help to you. MageLam (talk) 09:55, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. The map is helpful for the official names. However, if I am not wrong I have mostly seen it being referred to as Pandan Gardens instead of only Pandan. ([3]). In addition, if you see this link from URA it is mentioned as "Pandan Gardens" [4] (search for pandan). If new article names are contentious, I generally suggest leaving them as original.

I think it should be OK to move Trafalgar, Singapore back to Buangkok.

For Bartley and Joo Seng, let me research and find out. Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:26, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the Boon Lay subzone articles. Should they have a ", Singapore" suffix or should they remain as they are, given the fact there is also Boon Lay Place in Jurong West. Also, I believe that Shipyard, Boon Lay should remain as it is given the fact that a title like "Shipyard, Singapore" would be rather confusing. MageLam (talk) 11:09, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi!

1. Shipyard, Boon Lay seems better as compared to Shipyard, Singapore (since shipyard is a common noun as well, people might be confused is the latter is used).
2. I would leave Boon Lay and Boon Lay Place with existing titles, but add a disambiguation link at the top.
3. I looked up the Pandan Gardens and Pandan difference online. You are correct that Pandan Gardens seems to refer to the 'estate alongside Teban Gardens'. However, I am not sure if your renaming was appropriate. The original article titled "Pandan Gardens" seemed to be about the estate itself and not the planning area. If I am not wrong, we are not supposed to change the core subject of an article (even if we rename the article). In this case for example, changing the estate to the planning area in the same article. This messes up the edit history as well. For example, now if someone were to start a article specifically about the Pandan Gardens Estate, that article would not have the edit history of the current article. The correct thing according to me is to Create a new article for "Pandan, Singapore" planning area and add info about the urban planning area. As for the "Pandan Gardens" article, it can be left as it is or the content can be replaced with a single redirect link to "Teban Gardens". However, the edit history of the original "Pandan Gardens" articles should be preserved as it is.

I will have a look at the other articles soon. Lemongirl942 (talk) 03:27, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm maintaining a list of all renames and fixing I am doing. User_talk:Lemongirl942#SG_GEO_Rename_List. You can refer to this list for clarifications. You can also add your renames and the explanations to it. Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:47, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi there @Lemongirl942. I think we should expand on the articles we have newly created rather than simply copying and pasting content from the parent article. Two of them, Bidadari, Toa Payoh and Bras Basah lack references and I think we should do something about that. Also, I think its important to help distinguish that an article about a road and an article about a precinct are not the same, as the Bras Basah Road article appears to discuss about the precinct in general as well. MageLam (talk) 04:54, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi MageLam. Yup, I just added a reference to Bidadari, Toa Payoh. Will add more shortly. I was wondering if we should name it Bidadari, Toa Payoh or Bidadari Estate. A search on google news shows "Bidadari Estate" to have been widely used. (In future, the estate might also become part of a different planning area. Bidadari Estate seems a more long lasting name). Since the current article Bidadari, Toa Payoh is about the estate, I guess we can move it to Bidadari Estate? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I believe the current name is fine. The URA simply refers to the subzone as "Bidadari". Also, I believe Bidadari is more colloquially used than Bidadari Estate. MageLam (talk) 14:34, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

I think merging Bidadari Cemetery with Bidadari, Toa Payoh is a better solution. The history of the cemetery could be discussed in a section in the Bidadari, Toa Payoh article. MageLam (talk) 14:38, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

The problem with merging is that, the article on the Cemetery is a standalone article and it contains other information like an infobox on the cemetery and past burials. It would be difficult to move all this information to the article about the estate. Instead of merging, we can replicate a small amount of content on the estate article. For example, create a history section and mention briefly about the cemetery (and point a link to the main article). Only a small amount of information (about etymology) would be replicated. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 14:50, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi there @Lemongirl942, I have noticed that while you were moving several articles, you assumed that some of these places have a so called "common name" attached to them. In most instances, this is rather incorrect. For example Chong Pang is the name of a ward in Nee Soon GRC, it isn't a physical location like Yishun West, which has clearer and more defined boundaries. I would suggest that before moving these type of articles, do discuss about it first.MageLam (talk) 06:16, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: Can't imagine it has been this long since I got dragged into this mess... -- MageLam (talk) 10:03, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

2 months lol! --Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:38, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: I can still recall how my cellular data cap was about to burst the day you sent that message. I was boarding a train, which happened to be at a station with Wi-Fi. By the time I received your message, I didn't had the time to get off, so I had to wait for the next station which had Wi-Fi. I had to take the time to drop-off, read and reply to your message. The rest of it, was pretty much history... -- MageLam (talk) 11:48, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

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Proposed convention for URA subzones/planning area

Hi! I was thinking it would be good if we have a convention for Geo articles about Singapore. Personally, I think articles which refer to a neighbourhood/estate should be left alone. Usually neighbourhoods/estates are small divisions and their boundaries remain fixed over time. These should be left alone and not converted to articles about a similar name or differently named subzone. (The main problem is that the subject of the article changes and the edit history continuity is destroyed. For example the article titled Pandan Gardens was only about the estate. When it was moved to Pandan, Singapore and all references in the article to Pandan Gardens were replaced by Pandan, it became an article about the subzone. It however still retained the edit history of Pandan Garden. In contrast the new Pandan Gardens (which now redirects to Teban Gardens, has no edit history). Ideally the edit history of Pandan Gardens should stay where it is while Pandan, Singapore should be a new article.

I am working on a draft of Singapore naming conventions. Till that time, let us only rename articles after discussion. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 06:22, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Let's discuss it on this page User:Lemongirl942/List_of_proposed_moves. Easier to keep track. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 06:33, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

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Buona Vista MRT Station

added a link pointing to Queenstown

Pandan Reservoir

added a link pointing to Clementi

People's Park Centre

added a link pointing to Outram

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Template:Places in Singapore

Hi Mage, understood about your edit structure, but, if you prefer to make it only for Planing Area, please create a new template accordingly, rather than such huge clean-up, since it was originally just show about "Places" generally. Maybe I can assist you to move your current source data into new template sooner or later, while you can do that yourself separately as well.--Gzyeah (talk) 15:56, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Hey there! How about we discuss more about this on this page. I've been working on an improvement project for SG geo related articles with Lemongirl942, join us. :D -- MageLam (talk) 16:03, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Hi Mage~! Since I might be more busy than you on daily works & probably no time to express a lot on discussion here continuously, while I do know that "Lemongirl942" was also improving articles with you on SG geo projects, the new Template:Planning Areas of Singapore has been settled for you at the first place, in order to have no distribution for other users whom still using the "places" template & referring to the main article accordingly. Thanks for you invitation & I would take time for discussions with you guys when free at the moment. Regards, --Gzyeah (talk) 16:28, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@Gzyeah: I am having an important discussion on this template right now on the SG geo improvement page. Your redirect kinda caused the edit history to get messed up. -- MageLam (talk) 16:35, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

I think it would be appropriate to wait for Lemongirl942 to get back online before you do anything further. Let's have a discussion on this. -- MageLam (talk) 16:36, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Sigh... Frankly you started the huge clean-up initially, what I did just a rescue or workaround to save & balance your new edits against to some current demand you may overlooked or did not realize appropriately. Good night.--Gzyeah (talk) 16:47, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Ok, the thing is, the old edit history from the old Template:Places in Singapore is still located inside Template:Planning Areas of Singapore. The new Template:Places in Singapore dosen't preserve this edit history. Got what I mean? -- MageLam (talk) 16:49, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam and Gzyeah: Ah I saw what happened. The template was originally about places but it was modified to planning areas and then moved to planning areas. This however results in loss of edit history since the original template was about places (or "suburbs"). But we can solve this! The first step is to restore WP:STATUSQUO. Move the template back to the original page. Restore the edit history to the last long term stable version. Then for planning areas (grouped into regions), a new template can be created which can then be used in the planning area articles (instead of the original places template).

As for the subzone template, I am personally not sure if it is required. The problem with the subzone (and places) templates is that it is hard to determine which places/subzones to include in the template. Considering the number of subzones, it will add to clutter in the template as well. On top of that, URA keeps changing the subzone boundaries and keeps renaming them.

For the time being, the existing "places" template can be kept in articles not about planning areas. But it would be best if articles about planning areas use only the new "planning area" template. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam and Lemongirl942: FYI, the admin move request (to revert back page title) has been placed in template talk page as per wiki SOP.--Gzyeah (talk) 17:22, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam and Gzyeah: Oh no, I already listed that. Gzyeah, can you withdraw your request. Otherwise there will be two requests. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942 and Gzyeah: I've already removed the conflicting move request on Gzyeah's behalf. -- MageLam (talk) 17:29, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Ah great! OK, next time we should synchronise haha :D --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:30, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@MageLam and Lemongirl942: But the title still showing for "planning areas", so should we wait for more hours to let system update?--Gzyeah (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@Gzyeah: This has to be done manually by an admin. We need to wait for a while. Till that time it is best we do not modify it --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:34, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: Okay & noted with great thanks!--Gzyeah (talk) 17:36, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942 and Gzyeah: It's been quite a night guys! Getting pretty tired now, good night! XD -- MageLam (talk) 17:39, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

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Removing Red links from article

Hey! In general, it is best not to remove red links unless it can be reasonably made sure that the subject/topic will never be notable in the future. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 00:11, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

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Undiscussed redirect at Central Catchment Nature Reserve

I have reverted the undiscussed redirect and unattributed forking done by you at Central Catchment Nature Reserve. Sorry to say this, but in future please take care when doing stuff like this. At least extensively look for references, open a discussion on the talk page and show your justification as to why it should be merged or moved to a different article. The CCNR is the nature reserve and the article deals with the relevant aspects while the CWC is a planning area. For reference, I have no objection to creating a new article about the Planning Area called "Central Water Catchment", but try putting relevant planning area stuff there, instead of stuff about the nature reserve.
Like I said before, I don't want you to be discouraged from contributing. But at the same time you also need to make an effort to understand the policies/guidelines better. Getting angry and taking rash decisions do not help in Wikipedia - try calming yourself down, take a wikibreak or try editing on some other topics and see what you can contribute. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:38, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Could you please explain how this is WP:OR? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 05:42, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Saw your answer. But please don't move other's convo without permission. You can delete this from your talk page. I started the convo here because it doesn't look good on the article talk page. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 06:16, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

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Nomination of Filthy Frank for deletion

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Jawi Script

Hi, I understand that Jawi isn't an official script in Singapore, but to us Malays, its our history and heritage and I'm only adding them to place names that are of historic value to the Malays. If the Chinese can have Pinyi and the Indians can have Tamil romanization, why can't the Malays have Jawi Script on certain place names that are of historic value to us? do enlightenment me with your response. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 32cravenfan (talk • contribs) 10:00, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Quick note here

Hey, just a quick note here as that page is way too heavy now. (Apologies as there's a big on-wiki mess I am involved in right now which is sucking up my time. I am also going to be gone next week)

1. Prefer not to convert the main purpose of infoboxes (I recently saw a messy RfC over this). I will have a look into the parameters again and see if we need to add anything. There was a post above regarding the Jawi script which made me realise that ideally we should accommodate that as well (not fair to only keep Chinese and Tamil romanisations alongside native scripts). This may need wider community input btw, so I will proceed cautiously on this.
2. For the area articles, I'm currently refraining from splitting them. A friend of mine is doing research on this aspect of boundaries, so I'm willing to wait and see if her research is published. That could help explain. Btw, my friend talked about this concept of "perception time-lag" which I found interesting. Essentially, the current perception of areas is influenced by previous electoral subdivisions and postal districts (which initially used to largely correlate). Also, she told me that when postal districts were first introduced, the government apparently wrote them down on street signs all over Singapore which probably influenced people's perception of certain places being part of certain districts. The next step was named HDB neighbourhoods which helped cement places and names as people would go to the names community centres. As for planning areas, she said they have existed since the 1970s (although with different boundaries at that time). The reason why they didn't influence the people's perception was because it never got as much visibility as the postal districts/constituencies/HDB neighbourhoods. As for the present planning areas, she says it's probably not going to influence the people's perceptions as there is a subtle disconnect between the situation on the ground (influenced by the built environment with named entities like neighbourhood RCs, community centres, markets, MRT stations, police stations) and the planning area boundaries which are abstract and do not have any means to reinforce their perception on the public. Funnily, she also said that her survey found HDB town boundaries do not always coincide with the people's perception - like Dover is technically in Queenstown but it is mostly referred as a separate neighbourhood. The boundaries are much more nuanced than I ever thought.

Hope all is going well with you IRL! I'm going to be busy as well so no worries. There is no deadline haha. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:41, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia Singapore Meetup 9

MageLam,

We will have our next Wikipedia meetup at Singapore this coming Sunday ;) The page is: Wikipedia:Meetup/Singapore 9

Chongkian (talk) 04:43, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

@Chongkian: Hey there, sorry for the late reply. It apparently seems like the event was cancelled? Kinda thought of it that way due to the lack of updates. Anyways, I wasn't available that day, so I couldn't come down. The agenda for that meetup apparently also included a discussion about administrative divisions. It would be interesting to open up a discussion board for Malaysian and Singaporean Wikipedians to talk about that as there really isn't any kind of formal consensus on how such divisions are interpreted. I recently heard that a friend of Lemongirl942 is conducting a study on the perception of places and administrative divisions in Singapore, I'm eager to see the published paper soon. -- MageLam 12:32, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

No one turned up for the event although I was there for 1.5 hours ~ T_T Chongkian (talk) 00:12, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

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About edits to SG articles by User:Morrisonjohn022

Hi Mage! It is sometimes hard to define his/her edits if matching local facts & wiki rules, although I reverted some improper or useless descriptions from his/her works... Since this person is effecting many SG geo pages, could you please help on them accordingly? Thank you.--Gzyeah (talk) 09:02, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

@Gzyeah: Hey there, it's been quite some time now. Yes, I'm aware about Morrisonjohn022's recent activity on several SG geo articles (specifically Kallang) and I have been watching him closely for quite some time now. This user apparently doesn't respond to any messages left by other editors and usually does quiet drive-by edits as his/her modus operandi. I've sent this user a general note and a caution regarding his/her OR content, to both of which he/she did not respond (he/she appears to have added citations to the Kallang article though, albeit improperly done). I believe Morrisonjohn022 could be useful in contributing content, but he/she really needs to observe Wikipedia's rules with precaution. Anyways, I will be looking into several articles which Morrisonjohn022 has edited over the next few days and I will try correcting any possible mistakes or errors he/she has made. -- MageLam 11:00, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

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