User talk:OldManRivers/Archive 1

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Sḵwxwú7mesh-ulh Uxwumixw

Squamish First Nation may be the colonialized and bastardized version of Sḵwxwú7mesh-ulh Uxwumixw, but the reality is that the latter is not the name used in English. When I write about British Columbia in French, I have to use, for example, la colombie-brittanique, not "British Columbia". While I sympathize partly with what you did, the reality is that this isn't a Squamish-language Wiki, but English-language Wikipedia, and Sḵwxwú7mesh-ulh Uxwumixw is not an English expression/name; but if it's going to be done here it's got to be done across the board (it has been in some cases like Tsilhqot'in and Kwakwaka'wakw and St'at'imc. You've also raised an issue with all BC First Nations as to what their Wikipedia pages should be titled, as well as how people are expected to name them in English. One thing I can guarantee you - using the non-colonialist, non-bastardized name will discourage a lot of otherwise interested people from bothering to read the article. One of the prices of political/cultural correctness tends to be invisibility....Skookum1 17:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And by the way the redirects on/off the talk pages of this and the un-accented spelling/version are all screwed up. If you're going to make major (renaming pages is a major change) you have to be thorough. I still don't understand how it is that the talk page has a different set of accents than the title page; I only happened to find the older article (without the accents) which you'd just left as a blank page, rather than creating the proper redirect. But it's further weird its discussion page shows a redirect, while it itself didn't. And the redirect, which doesn't have the accents, goes to a page that does......AAAAAARGH. And also, if you're going to use "culturally-correct" names could you please make a point of covering ALL POSSIBLE VARIANT SPELLINGS with redirects? It's not like ordinary poele know how to spell Sḵwxwú7mesh-ulh Uxwumixw in order to look it up, after all.Skookum1 17:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


Hello, OldManRivers, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Kla'quot 05:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks you. That helps. OldManRivers 14:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Invitation to join BC WikiProject

Hi. Skookum1 here. Saw your Siwash Rock post and of course "we've met before". Thought I'd take this opportunity to invite you to join Wikipedia:WikiProject British Columbia (click on that, and go to "members" and just add your sig there); there's only 9 or 10 of us so far.....can't remember if Kla'quot has joined yet but she should, too....Skookum1 01:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

re xwemelchstn comment vs. "normal" Engl. Homulchesan

I know given our previous discussion that may come across strange; i.e. re using the English-adaptation of a Squamish language word rather than importing in Squamish spelling into English, as nobody else who speaks English is used to making Squamish-style sounds anyway; which is why historically xwemelchstn is seens as Homulchesan, and in the Akriggs BC Chronicle just now I think I saw a version beginning with W- and I've seen others, so there's not a standard. "Xwemelchstn" could be, but if you were to use it as a title you still have to give the IPA for how to pronounce it, and I recommend a sound file even, as some aboriginal language and culture pages have on Wikipedia (I'll dig out some examples, usually Tsalagi but I've seen Mohawk and Cree and some of the Californian ones, even; I think Comanche, too see, and Cheyenne - : realized what I was meaning to ask is if the article itself were created; it will come up capitalized, I'm sure, because of the way wikicode works. But asking that you try and make sure that people unfamiliar with (see Skwxwuxwmesh snichim (I'll fix that in a sec, once I copy-paste it, as I can't spell it right yet, usually) are still able to get an idea how to pronounce the name of your village. This is why the anglicized, and in other cases French or Spanish names of aboriginal communities are often rendered, plus an IPA as to how to pronounce it for people who know how to read IPA, usually professional linguists but also lots of "amateurs", too, though to me it's still pretty technical. Just trying to be helpful and encouraging, and asking to remember that people unfamiliar with local realities are meant to read this, wherever they are in the world; make everything accessible. I try to, although admittedly in unintentionally overblown fashion...Skookum1 03:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if your watching this, or if this is where I'm supposed to respond. I believe the language phonetics system my nation uses is the IPA that was used back in the 60's or 70's. The IPA changes so much, I always get confused. But my problem and weakness is: I don't know the IPA. But the idea to add sound bits would be good. I could add ones for Skwxwu7mesh Uxwumixw and the language for snichem, along with what ever else. Yeah, as you probably know, words like Homuclhesan, (along with Squamish, Coquiltam, Musquem, Sneaq, Chekwelp, and many other names, place names, and that) get garbled because of the moving into English of my language. As far as I know "Xwemelchstn" translates to "fast moving water", something to do with Capilano River. And I Skwxwu7mesh translates to "People of the Amazing Water", or at least that's the closest in English I can get it. (The name talks about my peoples creeks, and rivers, and that have healing qualities.) But, I'll do what I can. OldManRivers 05:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The springs up by the Squamish River, wherever they are? I heard on the IR somewhere along the river.....I'll delete that if you want :\| Had an interesting discussion at Talk:Skokomish (tribe) aka the Twana (that's a redirect to Skokomish), same thing, same people, twana means something in the local version of Lushootseed, the northern one I guess but I don't know the area; BC's confusing enough...Thing is, also , about Skokomish, which of course is at least sounds parallel to the Sko-ko-mish seen for your people in early writings here in BC; but knowing what "Skwxwu7mesh" sounds like, or more or less from hearing lots of spoken Salishan languages in my life, at least overheard and familiar.

I don't know if there's a connection like there seems to be with the Nooksack, given your shared dialects and all as I learned from the Squamish language page, thank you, but is there any connection also to the Twana? Their name, though, Skokomish as what it means/comes from down there, as told to me by one of their people on Talk:Skokomish, is a Chinook-Salish hybrid form, with the "Skoko-mish" actually being Skookum-mish. The Skookum people. The usual Chinook ending for "people, beings" - is -uks, so the -mish ending is outside "standard Jargon". I maintain there's a lot of that kind of variation throughout, and I'd like to see/hear how it was used here; and how it's still used, including by non-Natives at least as slang (fishermen particularly). As for "Squamish", what "we" are always told something different in what I call whiteman lore (in the CJ context of "whiteman", which is neutral and not pejorative - but can be.) is that Squamish means "big winds", which sounds like marketing parley; but it's also become the word for a coastal outflow wind, the Squamish wind, which maybe you might want to have a look at and check out; also its talk page Talk:Squamish wind.Skookum1 07:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It is interested that connection with Chinook, but I'm not that surprised considering Chinook was largly influenced with Salishan. "mesh", as in "Skwxwu7MESH" means people of. Apparently it's the same for many Salishan-speaking nations, but that's what my teacher told me. We have villages, major ones actualy, like Chiyakmesh and Stawamesh, that have mesh, although because of tranlsations by early anthropologists, it came out Stawames, or however it's selt. Chiyakmesh, a village on the Cheakmes River (you probably know what I'm talkin about), translates to "People of the Fishing Weir". The fishing weir is called "chiyak" in my language so, you can see how it's created. Also, with the "People of the Wind" and "The Unified People" mumbo jumbo. Your probably right about it being marketing. The idea it being "The Big Wind" seems more centered around the town of Squamish, and it's connection to the wind. But, if you break it down it goes like this.
eskwukwel' and tsikwu7kwu mean "thirsty" or "to drink water". The prefix, or root sound of "to drink water" is Skwsku (Not an actualy word in my language). The "xwu" part of Skwxwu7mesh comes from the word that translates to "amazing, spectacular". Then, since Skwxwu7mesh snichem is understood right-left, it all is put togehter. Skw+xwu+7+mesh = Skwxwu7mesh, the people of the amazing drinking water.
Make sence? I hope I explained it good enough. The thing about place-names in my language, is the root-basic translation itself doesn't exactly tell the story. All the place-names have history to the name, if through story, or importance, or significance for something, which is why they are called that. Yeah, it translates to "People of the Amazing Drinking Water", but it doesn't specifically mention that we have that name because of the healing and spiritual properties of the water in our mountains, creeks, and rivers. Another example could be this rock near Science World in False Creek, (forgot the actually name of place), it translates to "Place of Suicide". It's about this story of a young man who committed suicide, well, the story is actually quite
But it's fun to add stuff to wikipedia about all this information. Helps me remember, and spread the knowledge. OldManRivers 07:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I've never learned Squamish or heard it spoken much, except maybe around Squamish but not much there vs. how much farther upcountry or in the Canyon; I've heard lots of St'at'imcets and Halqemeylem and sometimes on the Island or up the Valley; even since St. Mary's Residence was integrated into Mission High in, I guess it was when I started, in 1967. I know I've heard lots of Shuswap and Nlaka'pamux'tsn also from being up and around the southern Interior, think I'd recognize Okanagan if I heard it as being simliar but different ...(or howver the 'tsn is supposed to be; linguists use a different spelling system than the bands, sometimes...getts confusing (I was raised in Mission and Lillooet and have been all through there most of my life, on and off. Not native but have an ear for it; but a city boy now...Chinook I'm interested in from the historical angle, and the impact a few of its words still have in local English; and not just because my name is Skookum1. But docs and tapes are rare, and how it was used among non-Natives was rarely recorded (though sometimes), and my interests lie in the direction how bits of it fused with English; even "in the sticks" is supposed to be of CJ-idiom origin - kopa stick - out in the boondocks, the bush, lit. "the woods", since you don't have to pluralize stick- "tree", which automatically also means "forest", and "wood"; or "forests" and "woods". Kopa is the all-purpose preposition - "in", "out in" etc...sorry for the CJ lesson; I'll move it to my space if you want...just kinda got it on the tangent of how I knew how Skookum1 07:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, I wish MacBooks and Firefox could have spell check for Skwxwu7mesh I made a spelling error on the name of my village (by a damn apostrophe) OldManRivers 05:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
If you make a request at you might get your wish for Firefox...eventually. Hell, you could probably get grant money to help develop it, or one of your people could. Did you know, by the way, that W3 rules (web governing rules) allow the creation of top-level domains for North American Nations? *.tv is already taken but....someone could make a lotta dough with the right top-level domain. I tried to get the Stl'atl'imx to hear me out on this when I was up there in '96 but no one listened (and they coulda had .sx and I'll leave it to you to figure out what that would be worth in terms of selling domain rights; Cac'lip (Fountain IR) in its older spelling could have had *.xp ..... but the web, it was felt, was "white man technology". In reality, you can stake out as much of it as you want, and define it according to your own language and culture, as many languages and nations have one...if your crowd cashes in in this ;-) I'd sure appreciate a credit, maybe even a kickback, even if I am a cultus whiteman ;-)

Zapatistas re Oaxaca

Saw you're interested in the Zapatistas. For a while there back during the more publicized part of the current crisis in Oaxaca I was reading the Mexican papers daily, and translated quite a bit of articles for a yahoogroup I belong to. If you'd like to read them, send me an email (via link at left) and I'll ship 'em over. Have kind of fallen out of the loop lately, but very aware of the democratic/indigenous revolution going on within Mexican society; I'll have a look at Zapatista but generally I avoid political articles in other countries; I monitor Oaxaca and APPO and related pages but more to watch out for POV/propaganda issues.Skookum1 (Talk) 09:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

re IPA

There's a template to put on the article, but I'm not sure what it is right now, that asks for IPA conversion of any non-standard words/words from other languages; I think there's a "help IPA" template, too, where you can get one of the linguists - who may even have a textbook on your language, even if they've never been anywhere near BC - to help with the page, and others like it.

Ulkatcho First Nation

I created Ulkatcho First Nation either last night or the night before; it's the government article, there should also be a "people" article, although they're largely Carrier/Dakelh (the Dakelh language article already exists as Carrier language. Anyway, just asking you to drop by and see if I worded things appropriately from the First Nations point of view. Created the article because of young hockey MVP Carey Price, who's from Anahim Lake and whose mom is the Ulkatcho chief; note that I linked all the individual reserves, alhthough in the long run only the inhabited ones should get "community" articles; but many uninhabited reserves already have's an issue for both the Indigenous people's project as well as the BC project, but unresolved; for now they could all be stubs; but many there won't be much to say about them, esp. if they are only plots of lands, rather than existing/historical communities; "only plots of land" of course isn't meant to demean them as ancient fishing or spiritual sites; if there's something known like that as to why something is a reserve, and there's enough for a short article, by all means go ahead and make them (I remember you list of Squamish Nation reserves somewhere, in one of these articles, presumably merged to Squamish Nation by now. See notes, also on Talk:Ulkatcho First Nation.Skookum1 (Talk) 09:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Sisiutl-vertebra talisman in P. Johnson

Hi. Just wondering if there was any substance to Pauline Johnson's story about the chief of Homulchesan (xwemlchtsn..>? close but not cigar I'm sure!) giving to two French priests, who'd been aboard a Russian vessel afflicted with scurvy who had put into Burrard Inlet/English Bay, a tribal talisman that was a vertebra of the Sisiutl which had spanned the mouth of Burrard Inlet, from Chaythoos to the beach opposite, and was killed by one of your tribe (the ancestor of the Capilano chiefs, from what I remember of the story but I don't have Legends of Vancouver on hand anymore; I always give it away because it's a beautiful little book for people not from here, or new to here). Supposely they gave the talisman to the priests as the fame of the Lion of Corsica (Napoleon) had spread through the native peoples by word of mouth (this was in 1790s, when contact with whites was still minimal). Is this an actual tribal legend, and if so would it not fit somewhere, maybe in the Chief Capilano article (whatever it's called; and I recommend using, as before, the anglicized form for any article to be written, if it's not there already); or is it Chief Khatsahlano? If it can be corroborated as part of Squamish legend, it might make an interesting aside also on the Napoleon Bonaparte page, as the talisman was given so as to confer on him invincibility, and the story goes on to say that he carried it throughout his European campaigns - but lost it on the morning of Waterloo...the power of the talisman also helped heal the Russian crew so the ship could put out to sea again, I think. I can never figure out who was which, if you'll forgive me, although I know Khatsahlano was a joint chieftaincy with the Musqueam and the "chiefly seat" was Snauq; or that's what I got from Maj. Matthews anyway.....Skookum1 (Talk) 22:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, where to start. The story is far fetched, and broken. Probably one of the most broken in that book. The warrior who killed the serpent (sinulhkay), was xwupukinem/xwchtaal. He was from the village of stawmus. That man, is my direct ancestor actualy. My two uncles carry those names now. (They are ancestrial names, passed down through the generations.) The first Xwchtaal was from stawamesh (stawmus) in Squamish. He was given the name Xwupukinem after he killed the serpent. Now, as far as I've learned, Xwupukinem/Xwchtaal has one of the most stories about him. That's the thing about my culture and how we kind of immortalize people. The spirit of Xwupukinem/Xwcthaal is handed down and his spirit lives through all the stories of him. From killing the serpent, to beind obducted by the seal people, to everything else. There is actually a photo taken in the 1800's at Fort Langley of 100 skwxwu7mesh canoes going up the Fraser Rivers being lead by Xwupukinem of that time. Then, with our culture of potlatching, the Husdon's Bay Company named him "Squamish Chief". They were not customed to the governance system around here and were used to the trading ways back east. "Deal with one tribal chief, then trade." But here, it was a lot different. So, they just asked around, and said, who's is your leader, and named him chief. Xwupukinem at the time was one of the highest ranking around this area. After him, it was Kiyap7lanexw (Ancestors of August Jack).
There is a lot there, a lot of history to do with Xwupukinem/Xwchtaal. I'm not sure what to do with the Pauline Johnson story. I always found it weird. And I've asked and everyone I talked to says "Yeah, she romanticized a lot of her stories." Either to make it sell more with the white folk, or adding her on context from being back east. (Mohawk). I have to run out the door right now, but I'll add more later. If you have anymore questions, I'll be sure to answer them.
You might recognize this from Major Mathews and Conversations with Khatsalano. My great grand-father is Andy(Andrew) Paull, who carried the name Xwchtaal/Xwupukinem, but in those writings known as "Quichtal". OldManRivers 02:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


reply on my talkpage.Skookum1 04:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's one for ya...

I'm off to bed, but looking over stuff I put on the BC Wikiproject's talkpage a while back: maybe you're the guy for the COTM proposal for Chief Dan George....g'nite.Skookum1 10:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

yer fact templates on Musqueam Indian Band

My bad; when I wrote that I was remembering/"citing" Maj. Matthews' version of native history from Early Vancouver; there are actual page refs but I never took them down, and sold my copies to MacLeod's Books this last spring for groceries ($100 for the set...). I realize now this doesn't jibe with the Squamish version of the story as it may be he was influenced by the Musqueam version of things; but I've only heard Matthews' version, not the Musqueam yours I'd like to know, and of course the article should have only cited material, not just citable (Matthews is a slog to read, so finding the passages again would be hard, but it's probably in the opening chapters on the native peoples, where he also has the names list/map).Skookum1 19:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC) and that last phrase about the political implications of Snauq as a chiefly seat may have been my own speculation, arrived at years ago when I first studied this (I was Gastown's heritage person in the summer of '89) rather than being anything exact in Matthews.....Skookum1 19:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Heads-up on Mount Currie, British Columbia

Hi; just a heads-up that I'll be working up the Mt Currie and also Lil'wat articles (separately, which is tricky) in the next while and would like your head over my shouler on it; I have friends up there so will consult them as best I can, or know who to ask; this hadn't gotten created for the longest time, but someone finally did, although a req for cites has been made (easy to do, even from my whiteman "kitchen histories"); but you're my go-to guy for SW BC First Nations articles it or not ;-P Skookum1 20:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Items on First Nations in Alan Morley's book

Found a couple of bits I'd like your people's version on in Alan Morley's Vancouver: From Milltown to Metropolis:

By the time the Sko-ko-mish [sic - Morley's attempt at rendering Sḵwxwú7mesh] and the Musqueams were no strangers to teh white men's appearance, habits, trade goods, or guns, but Vancouver itself lay largely untroubled and unknown [he's meaning up until the 1860s]. the Indians have a tradition that during these years, when the company [the HBC] was actively seeking new mines, "Two white men with Indians in a canoe came looking for coal." But nothing else is known of them.
The Sko-ko-mish had a reputation for ferocity, whether deserved or not, it is hard to tell now. At least, [the site of] Vancouver was avoided by white men. As shadowy as the "two men in a canoe" is the tradition of one Supple Jack, who lived near Siwash Rock, and was credited in the reminiscences of oldtimers with "the murder of a dozen prospectors." The legend could be - as Supple Jack's defenders aver - wholly slanderous, of course.

Hmmm. Can't find the other bit; maybe it's in Akriggs so I'll check/re-read and find it again. It concerned a trip to Howe Sound where a tribe of Indians were encountered who had not seen white men since the visit of Capt. Vancouver in 1793; could have been the Stawa7mes, or any of your other villages, I'd expect; the date was the 1850s sometime I think.....Skookum1 01:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

That is very interesting. I've heard of a few things for the North Shore where the Warriors gathered, (not sure if it's the romanticized kind of "warriors" or the actualy monastic society that existed), in North Vancouver when the settlers started getting rowdy. Either way, it's nice to know some of my ancestors in the 1800's were a bit rowdy. It's hard dealing with a history with no post-colonization militant resistance, but oh well. Any who, I haven't heard much. After small-pox, and all that, the villages were desemated so very little resistance was offered, and the people were hit so hard, emotional and community wise, very little opposition to assimilation and colonization tactics by settlers and the government was really done. This is interesting. I'll have to find out more about, I only know a bit about this. OldManRivers 02:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, story is, as in Matthews somewhere, and I think in the Olga Ruskin (&somebody else whose name I've forgotten) book on Gassy Jack and Gastown, that the few gold rush-era prospectors who dared enter the Burrard Inlet either to goldpan or seeking a route through the mountains never got out...and over the years after settlement began (1866 for Moodyville I think, with Hastings Mill/Gastown started in 1867) bodies would occasionally be found on or near beaches around the inlet, often with traces of gold rush-era equipment...I'll have to also dig up another bit from Morley for you about Col. Moody getting in a quarrel with either the Skwxu7mesh (close?) "chief" or the Burrard one, when Moody was surveying the first land alienations near the inlet (either at Port Moody or around the PNE, I can't remember); Moody responded by (as Lieutenant-Governor at the time, subordinate only to Governor...Musgrave, it would be by then I guess....) freeing all the guy's slaves - thereby (although Morely doesn't say this; my conjecture/interpolation) breaking the guy's wealth as well as his prestige, and considerable loss of face. I'd imagine this is in your own histories, albeit in another version...but I'll find Morely's quote, and I remember seeing it in Matthews as well.Skookum1 05:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
By the way the pictures of the Khatsahlano or Capilano chiefly regalia in Maj. Matthews were photographed with the chief behind the lens, and the Major in front of it, wearing the regalia. Guesswork, from when I first saw this back in 1989 and wondered why, is that if the photograph was taken while the chief (in whatever capacity he was, as I know "chief" is not the right word...) then it was something like spirit-capture; the power of the regalia and mask was not therefore robbed by the camera, as it might have been had the chief been in front of the lens and the Major behind it. There's three outfits, and they're all striking to me as to the variance of traditional Coast Salish costume with the neo-Kwakiutl/Haida "fashion" of more recent times (like that sasquatch design on my userpage, which is on the side of a bus shelter in Seton Portage; where such art was unknown before the fusion of native cultures caused by white encroachment/cultural pressures....Skookum1 05:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's taboo and moraly wrong to photograph those sacred cerermonies and regalia, even to this say. They are sacred secret societies to many still and are held in high regard. I've seen those photos. I was just reading "Coversations with Khastalano" the other day. But, there was an influx of northren art during the fishing season because of the inter-mariage between Salish and northren tribes. But, (not sure you are familar with), Salish Art is actualy strikingly beautiful and complex, if done right. It's coming in sort of a rennasaince right now among Salish peoples, but it's very beautiful. Susan Point is one of the most known artists, but I don't care for her work (taste reasons.) But that is interesting about the slave and the "chief". It's awful how many of the early christians and settlers had a weird view of slavery. But, that's an interesting story. Never heard anything about that, but, I'll ask. Hoping to visit my teacher tomorrow. OldManRivers 08:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Non-chiefdoms and also stuff on CJ

Whoever it was that wrote Somena and is present in the discussion at Talk:Somena (confusingly I think that editor is User:Somena, discusses the Cowichan peoples' view of slavery and also the non-chiefly system of government. Morley does point out that neither the Squamish nor Musqueam nor others had chiefs but rather "hegas men", by which I think he means "hyas man" in the usual Chinook Jargon, with "hegas" being the local variant.

That by the way is why I was asking about Jargon usage here; I know there's no, or only a few if any, Chinook placenames around this area that would have been used by your people; what I'm interested in is the different forms of the words relative to CJ as it's known elsewhere, and maybe any syntactical or idiosyncratic distinctivenesses; like there is in the Lillooet variety; local words get fused/simplified into the Jargon, and all the Jargon's other words - whatever the source language, be it Nootkan, French, Chinook, Kalapuya or English - get transformed from group to group. My theory and some experience anyway; current chinookological officialdom, such as they've made of themselves, maintain that there was an aborigninal constant; I maintain that's because of the Sprachbund's common phonology, but there would still be different lexicons partly from local variation and also from different non-native use in the same area, e.g. in the Chilcotin there's mention in one source of Gaelic and Russian components, and around Fort Langley Hawaiian words came into common use; around Lillooet there were Mexican ones as well as St'at'imc Morley's "hegas" is interesting because it points at a variation in the standard lexicon in this area; much undocumented and researched.

I don't know about your people, but I know at Lillooet and elsewhere there's a wariness by the teachers and elders involved with the traditional language to study their Chinook materials because Chinook nearly wiped out the old languages; and the materials are also often associated with evangelism and the residential school experience; long story and too much for this talk page....but that's why I was interested in finding out about Squamish CJ usage; I believe the Columbia River/Puget Sound-based scholarship is very narrow; when they studied - just as one example of many parallel situations - the Kamloops Wawa they seem to have been mostly interested in proving its continuity with the Lower Columbia version, even though it's very different; and being Americans they made the supposition that the usage in the Thompson was the same as in the Canyon or in the Lillooet Country or elsewhere, where its usage and purpose were ifferent, as well as who brought it in (the Kamloops Wawa was a Catholic publication; the multiracial/cultural parties of raftsmen on the upper Fraser and Nechako and so on apparently spoke something so vulgar and rowdy that "proper" natives didn't learn it, although CJ words pepper Carrier (usually French-origin CJ words...), and specifically with an "Indianized" creole (their term) that's developed in the multi-tribal Grand Ronde Agency in Oregon over the century of isolation there: Tshinuk-Wawa officially, with its own version of spellings and one of the principal verbs up here (to do, to make: mamook) considered an obscentiy down there, and replaced with munk.

On top of that the bias has been against non-native use of the Jargon, even though at one time tens of thousands of non-natives knew at least some, and apparently in BC communities - Burrard Inlet - oldeer families would speak Chinook to each other at home, with no one else present; and they might have been from England, both of them....but that's not studied, and "corrupt" non-native pronunciation and usage doesn't get studied; nor did it get recorded (much, though there are still people in the outcountry who know some) and of course if you have no records of something it makes it difficult to study; I'm also intersted in the hybridization of English with Chinook and Chinookisms; words like skookum, saltchuck, and expressions like "in the sticks" and I'd bet also "dumb-ass" and so on (from tenas, hyas, tamanass); that most people grow up using such words without even realizing they are aboriginal, and only in this region (OR-WA-BC-AK-YT and bits of AB-ID-MT) is amazing, doncha think?

Salish Art and other stuff

About Colonel Moody, I gather you mean at the end there; I'll find the passage in a bit and get back here with it so you can read it. And Salish Art I've seen compelling stuff - I remember seeing pics of the wooden grave figures from up the Canyon somewhere - Ruby Creeik I think - that were a mother and father mourning; huge round figures, very fluid, very un-like the upper coastal art; very subtle but also very "full" and expressive, almost over the done like a cartoon done by Edvard Munch. And various bits of ancient Lillooet stuff, like a blackstone pipe found in the Lillooet River up above Pemberton somewhere. The snake-figure on the Musqueam burial box that's so famous is in that tradition, but IMO not as finely done as some of the canyon figures; there are only a few pics of Nlaka'pamux and St'at'imc old-style graveyards but some of the figures are distinctly naturalistic (the Nootka Whalers Shrine is impressive, but not as finely carved as the canyon ones, or as diverse and often personal, like the two grieving parents (easily mistakeable for modernist/cubist art if you didn't know where they were from - they're in the Vancouver Museum now as far as I know, but probably in the vaults rather than on display (like so much else). The pictograph rock that used to be on display in Stanley Park is supposed to be there - I think it's the one that Johnson writes about as the witche's rock, the witch turned into a stone marked with all her sins - it's from the Fraser Canyon somewhere originally. But when I was doing my Gastown research there were lots of old pics of Stanley Park, some from around where the monkey cage is/was (long before it was built) of "culturally-modified trees" that had "watcher" figures carved around the base of the tree, and I think one that had a face on it; and more stuff like that all through the Park; those pics are in the VPL but you'd have to sit with their volumes of prints and find them; I don't have my old index notes anymore...

I 'know', if you'll forgive me for putting it that way, but from the readings that were available to me growing up, that the art of the Squamish had more of a northern influence than that of the peoples now known collectively as the Sto:lo; I'd read Barbeau's Totem Poles cover to cover and looked over most of the plates intensely, and absorbed quite a bit of the stories in context; but what I do find is the fascination with coastal art, and the introduction of Plains style/culture - especially in the Interior - has diluted a lot of what I've seen of the traditional Interior cultures in their regalia etc; at the Ure Creek blockade, I remember seeing the TV coverage with him offering prayers to the spirits of Axa7, the name of the burial ground and also the place of the dead beyond the world/beyond the west, before the loggers could proceed; he was wearing an intense array of ribbons mixed with a particular kind of buckskin, only some beading; and the Lillooet basketry was in many cases high-art (Lillooets have a technique for making waterproof baskets that not even the Nlaka'pamux or any of their other neighbours have; the secret is currently known to only two women in the upper St'at'imc, one the wife of the chief of the Setons when I was living there...they're divorced now, she's back in Fountain and is one of the main language teachers; she was taught by a Shalalth elder, I'm not sure which one. Been inside and out Xa:ytem too; and fascinated by some descriptions I came across in the Akriggs of the old Scowlitz and Chehalis villages on the Harrison, which were apparently staggering in scale and intensity and very different from anything seen anywhere else....Skookum1 08:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

It's amazing how Salish Art, esp. the ancient stuff looks very contemporary, even to this day. But, that's the thing about all of this, this, essence. We called it, but it really isn't, but it is. Art denotes a creative, imaginative aspect, which not to say it didn't before, but now it's really about expression, where before it had a purpose. Art vs. Design. The house posts, the spindle-whorls, the combs, the canoes, the everything, it was all made for a purpose. The Skwxwu7mesh did recieve a lot of influence from the Kwakwaka'wakw and other northren tribes, but that was after contact, and most of the tradiing and fish canneries was going on. There is a spindle-whorl the Washington Museum that has a Salish-Skwxwu7mesh spindle-whorl. Very salish design. Very beautiful. It might of be carved by one of my ancestors. Traded in front of the Saint Pauls Church in N. Van in the late 1800's. But, there is a coming of Salish art through-out the Salish nations, and back prior to contact, it was a lot more specific to each area. Although "salish" in design, there was something "Skwxwu7mesh" about this design, or this design, but it looked Salish. It's very interesting. Either that or people are just getting tired of Kwakwaka'wakw and Haida designs. (Between me and you, most of the work that I see from there looks like cartoons to me, but there are some very exceptional artists/designers that make beautiful work.) We have poles and house posts being put back up in territory. But, it would be cool to do some pages on the art froms for the Kwakwaka'wakw and Haida and Salishan. OldManRivers 09:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

More bits from Morley


The Kanaka Rancherie, too, we know. There we get an appealing glimpse of "Little Scottsie Two-Tails", always neat and clean with her two pig-tails an natty Glengarry cap of tartan. How life treated the Kanaka-Indian tot as she grew up, we do not know, but once her wise Indian mother told her, "Learn to act like white people -- either go up or down, that is your choice . . . " Too many of the inlet's finest people faced that particular heartbreaking choice.
Stanley Park was still the home of many Indians and some whites [in 1874]. Near the rancherie lived Mowitch Jim, who hunted and sold venisonto George Black [the Scots butcher in Gastown and owner of the Sunnyside Hotel, which was built on a pier where Brother Jon's is now, with his abbatoir in the back; Joe Fortes' boss - he was the bartender there)]. One day, walking through the bush, Scottsie Two-Tails met the legendary Supple Jack; it is rather a come-down to learn the reputed scourge of the prospectors was handsome, neatly dressed, "partiulcar of his clothes and hat" and lived near First Narrows. There he had 24 cows, two horses, mamny piges, and his wife, Quy-what, dleivered milk to the mill."
On the shore just east of Deadmna's Island, Tompkins Brew, the ex-government agent [a bit of a notorious character as I recall but we'll save that for another time], settled with his Indian wife, and Johnny Baker, a longshore man, also married to an Indian, had a house about where the Nine-O'Clock Gun is now. When Simmons sold the Hole-in-the-Wall to Pete Donnelly, he, too, settled there and prospered by making dog-fish oil [which was used to run and lubricate the mill machinery....musta stunk to high heaven over the years around the old mill, huh?]. It sold for 25 cents a gallon [multiply that by 40 to get a rough equivalent to currency today: $10/gal...the guy was making the good dough].
Donnelly - well, perhaps it wsasn't Donnelly, afer all. Toward the end of the '70s, Pete went East, came back with a blushing bride, turned ultra-respectable - and insisted his name was James A. Robertson. James A. Robertson he continued to be, and nobody ever knew why.
At Snaq, the present Kitsilano Indian Reserve [the book was published in 1961], there still was a longhouse 100 feet in length and 30 feet wide, where Chief Khatsahlano ruled a settlement of the Ssquamish. The chief's grandson, August Jack, worked at the mill in later years, and isalive today, living on the North Shore near Lions Gate Bridge.

More Morley: Colonel Moody and the slaves


All Vancouver saw of the 1858 gold rushy as a few miners camping on Secon Beach in Stanely Park while they waited for the Fraser freshet to subside. Eerly in the summer, one MacLean, a Scottish farmer from California [all of the Brits and Canadians who came to the rush had been in California for quite a while; Dan Marshall's UBC thesis Claiming the Land, which you should read, explains all this and how diverse the rush really was; not just Americans and Chinese], sailed his schooner, the Rob Roy,into the inlet, looking for land to settle on. The Indians proved hostile, and he sailed back to the Fraser with Mrs. MacLean and his young son standing by the schooner's two little brass guns.
On Christmas Day, Colonel Richard Clement Moody's famous detachment of Royal Engineers arrived in the Crown Colony of British Columbia [from Kwangtung/Canton, China, where they had been building stuff in the post-Opium War period] and founded the establishment that was first Queensborough and later [[New Westminster, British Columbia}New Westminster]].
Colonel Moody was not only senior military officer in the colony (proclaimed the previous August 25) but also chief commissioner of works [later Trutch's job, perhaps should have an article as with other colonial postions] and chief commisioner of lands. With Admiral Baynes, the senior naval officer, he took a load of responsibility off Governor Douglas' shoulders - not, it was whisppered, altogether to Douglas' delight [they didn't get along; Hauka's McGowan's War explores that well, and is a gangbusters read especially the Fraser Canyon War account - also in Marshall's thesis - but the Douglas-Moody animosity/mutual friction is throughout all the big histories, including Akrigg].
Since the Fraser was an unruly river, and those days often froze over [sic] to the mouth in winter, Admiral Baynes late in 1858 had HMS Plumper survey Burrard Inlet [what a great name, huh? - but named after somebody named Plumper, which is maybe even more unfortunate...], and chose English Bay's south shore and the extreme head of the inlet as naval anchorages [Rocky Point Park I think for the Port Moody end, plus the port lands there].
Colonel Moody concurred. As senior military officer he set the Royal Engineers to work early in 1859 on a road to Port Moody (the source of the name is obvious at the head of the inlet [i.e. named it for himself, meant in a implied vain/egostistic way by Morley I'm sure]. As chief commissioner of works, he let civilian contracts for a road to Jericho Beach on English Bay. Today these routes are the North Road, and approximately, Grandview Highway [Douglas Road would be next].
The admiral wanted coal, as well as anchorages. the Plumper returned in June and dug two tons "of very good quality" from exposed seams on the shore, about the present north foot of Bute Street, "in a very few hours,." Richards Street recalls the name of the Plumper's captain, Brockton Point that of her engineer, and Coal Harbor [sic] that of her mission. Ironically, the British-American Oil Company's distribution depot stands today on top of Vancouver's only coal mine.[Morley's period of publication, not since of course]
Early in June came Walter Moberly, explorer and son of a Hudson's Bay Cmopany factor, and Colonel Moody's secretary, Robert Burnaby, to survey and map the coal beds. Rumors soon reached New Westminster that the Indians had attacked the survey party.
The Plumper came racing to the rescue, found all well and Captain Richards brought the crew ashore with a keg of navy rum for Vancouver's first recorded beach party. [must have been a nice day, I expect, weather-wise I mean, summer and all...]
Some mystery, a distinct probabibility of arbitrary dictation from Colonel Moody, and wild allegations of corruption from Vancouver Island politicians surround Moody's first allocation of land in Vancouver.
Moberly was instructed to make extensive surveys, and Moody reserved for naval and military purpose 788 acres on Point Grey, 11 acres at Jericho, 155 acres on Burrard Inlet opposite the hea of False Creek, 110 acres at Port Moody, 354 acrs in Stanley Park, 950 acres opposite on the North Shore [possibly what later was designated as the Capilano Indian Reserve?], and 190 acres north and 127 south of the inlet at Port Moody [maybe also the refinery lands if not Rocky Point].
The Indian inhabitants, of course, received no consideration in this. They were discontented, as a result ["to put it mildly", I would imagine...], and when shortly afterward Moody took the necessary and humane step of freeing all their slaves, they became even more discontented. [Note: while some of the men might have been drunk or hungover - the surveyors - Moody himself was a teetotaller and arch-Christian, but maybe having his crew hungover had also put him in a bad mood; but he seems to have been an uptight p***k quite a lot of the time; something to do with being in imperial dress uniform nearly all the time maybe; they didn't have camos or fatigues back in those days; but as we find out this was his land that they were surveying that day, so "he was having none of it from the aboriginals", as an Australian would put it; and it was in his power to do anything, given his triple portfolio...and that it was also military reserves that were being taken as well as private allocations...].
The North Road was completed in 1859, the Jericho Trail in 1861, and the River TRail, from New Westminster along hte Fraser to Point Grey, in 1863. The Royal City had her back door.
In January, 1860, Douglas proclaimed the new colony's land law. Burnaby and Moberly, evidently partly paid in land script, immediately file on inlet lands. Burnaby file for 128 acres "near the coal site," and Moberly, on his way upcountry to the gold fields, for the south shore of False Creek.
Moberly's application was filed on behalf of Admiral Baynes [the RN commander at Esquimalt] before Patrick O'Reilly, J.P., at Fort Hope [whose name I'm sure you recognize].
Over these, and a naumber of other filings outside the Vancouver area, mostly by Moberly on behalf of military officers and mainland businessmen, Moody came into conflict with Douglas an the Victoria politicians, who denounced "the military clique building roads and appropriating land to enrich itself."
Nevertheless, the new land laws had set the stage for the first appearance of Vancouver. At last itw as possible for a businssman to invest in property, a farmer to own his farm, a citizen to own his home [and the government to tax him for all of it...].

That last paragraph is the Canadianesque forelock-tug to the system that's obligatory in this country to get a history published; it was even moreso in 1961. I included the details of the land law thing not just out of interest, or any obvious analysis of it as an imposition of white man's law - using plumb bob and tripod to draw invisible lines on the landscape, to make this from that and something whole into something packageable and saleable and need to go on, I'm just letting on I understand the essential absurdity of this and the stark contrast to the relationship to the land to the one the same bunch of fellows who destroyed that relationship with the new system, i.e. the guys who surveyed it, were also the ones who were appropriating it for themselves; Moody, the senior army official and military head of the Colony, and the RN Admiral; Moberly was the son of an HBC factor, and Burnaby was Col. Moody's secretary. That's the same Robert Burnaby who got most of the back woods behind New Westminster (once the new land allotments were laid out that is the basis of today's Burnaby; his old property line is, I think, Edmonds, or 16th - whatever the New West-Burnaby boundary street is).

What Morley doesn't explain directly other than that bit "Some mystery, a distinct probability of arbitrary dictation from Colonel Moody, and wild allegations of corruption .... etc" point to how high profile a scandal this was, bigger than things we've got going on now (imagine if Rich Hillier were caught in an expropriation deal in the course of his official duties, and he also happened to be Minister of Public Works and also the guy writing the Land Law enabling the expropriation/developmen; sure, politicians do this all the time, but not when also while in charge of the militar...). Because of the public works portfolio - Moody was an engineer and surveyor, and why he was posted here, to set up land law and build things - so he was in control of, or managing anyway, the biggest part of the budget, with his own military budget/payroll the next biggest chunk of same)) - and there weren't really newspapers yet, if Amor de Cosmos' was even started by this date (his was the first), and kind of evades with that last paragraph, which now that I know what went down, is deafening in its silence: the scale of the scandal in colonial politics; these were all the Empire's right-hand men in the colony (Douglas was senior to them, but also distinctly a local guy, so somewhat having to put up with them, as well as needing them desperately in order to even claim a governate or a colony, vs. the American option which had destroyed his old friends and clientele in "Southern Columbia" as the Akriggs describe south-of-49 and horrified him..

I'd speculate Morley's manuscript had another paragraph there about what I found out from either Akrigg or Peter MacDonald's atlas of Vancouver (or ??). The politicians in Victoria stripped these guys of the land they'd surveyed - the same land taken on the day they freed the "chief"'s slaves - it's sometime after August 25th when the survey took place, so this wasn't Emancipation Day, August 1, which was the first holiday declared in the colony and commemorated the abolition of slavery in the British Empire some decades before; Douglas' idea, and pissed off the Americans here big-time.... So the upshot is that this was a BIG scandal - the military abusing power to take land for themselves - prime land, too, even though the railway was at that time only a promise, and increasingly one that looked like it was to be broken by Ottawa. These guys were only stripped of the land and no charges were laid; there was no one to replace them, and really no legal jurisprudence to try them under; actual charges I don't think were not filed, or anything that did come out on paper was stayed by Begbie (who later on, or was it in the '60s, was accused of land involvements as well, but it was a trump-up). The lots cut up, other than the locations of the military reserves, were wiped off the map, and the next round of surveys, which forms the basic lots underlying Vancouver and Burnaby and so on today, is completely different.

But the land law was in place, as Morley continues from the missing bit (which a populist-minded editor in those times might have thought tainted the good name of these figures, who are icons in King George historical identity, or were still then though not so much now, and certainly not in your people's eyes...). While transcribing all this it occurred to me that this land law is what established the Land District system, evidently chartered by Moody in his capacity as Commissioner/Minister of Lands, which I've been meaning to write a basic article but didn't know the date, or where to look, before; part of the BC history infrastructure I'm slowly building in Wiki....

Anyway, that's it for tonight; hope you like the tidbits. In future maybe I better confine such long transcriptions to my resources sandbox (linked above somewhere) as it's going to choke up your talkpage; the whole point of it being here is for you to respond to any individual bit separately if you want; don't be afraid to cut-and-indent when you want to respond to something in particular, and sign each bit; just tag Skookum1 on the end of the bit above your reply so identity/continuity is maintained; this stuff is also of interest to others in the Vancouver and BC project (though Bobanny I know has this book) so my intent with the Resources area is a common pool for this kind of stuff;; or else to WikiSource maybe; almost makes me wonder about doing an out-of-print sources Wiki, though not sure of copyright issues; lots of work, too much, and I've already made way too much for myself..... ;-) Skookum1 10:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting... OldManRivers 10:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
PS I need a name for this scandal (see List of Canadian political scandals and its talkpage), as it should have an article; the British Columbia Military Clique Land Scandal? Nah, something punchier and Wiki-esque... there were no newspapers around to dub it anything; I wish colonial hansard was easy to come by..... I'll have to sleep on it.Skookum1 10:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Nicola Tribal Association

Glad you liked it...check out your email in a minute as I'll forward you some aerial photo links I compiled for someone lse I think you'll like. I just finished this before bed as I'd left it open only half-drafted ("finished" isn't the right word): Nicola Tribal Association (aka Nicola Tribal Council); now if only I can get the folks with the aerial photos to let me use their pics (see the mail) to illustrate articles like this one (and Nicola (chief), which I hope you've read....Skookum1 11:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Wa'a there are a lot of pictures. I'll have a look through them. I'm suffering from insomnia and sleep disorder, and I'm supposed to go Snowboarding later on at 8:00AM. I knew I wouldn't sleep, so I'm going to not sleep, be really tired after, then hopefully have a good nite sleep after that. Although, I am working on a blog post right now. Thanks. Have a good nite OldManRivers 11:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


Came across this article - Quesalid - while checking to see what a change was on Kwakiutl language (yes, I know, you'd rather the page be titled Kwak'wala, but at least there's a redirect; WP policy is for the most common name in English etc.). Anyway, the article was translated from French (Levi-Strauss) and was pretty mangled English when I found it; still is but have a look at the previous version ;-p Anyway, articles on individuals like this need careful attention, and non-First Nations sources like Boas and Levi-Strauss are going to come up all the time; anyway, just letting you know it's there FYI.Skookum1 19:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Salishan languages

Hi. It's noon (I'm actually up!) and I know you're up 'boarding, or were this morning anyway, and that you were seeing your teacher today; but here's another update to look at and comments to consider, on Talk:Salishan languages (my new posts at the bottom).Skookum1 19:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Boarding was fun. I really enjoy it. Except this week I have a lot of improv to do so I don't think I'll get much time to do boarding this week. Maybe early in the morning.

The Salishan languages page could use some work, along with Coast Salish and Salishan. I'm still intimidated on starting the Snichem page, but I'll get to it. Just busy with school, and work, and fun. I'm writing a book review on the bible for redwire so, I might no be able to do much on wikipedia for a week or so. But keep sending the messages and I'll check them. OldManRivers 03:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Created a bunch of FN stubs

Best way to see what is to look at my edit contributions, as I've created stubs covering Nuu-chah-nulth peoples and about half (so far) the Kwakwaka'wakw. Please see Issues relating to FN templates on one of the template talk pages {{First Nations on Vancouver Island}} which I've just made some changes to so the links work and there's no need for bunches of redirects, other than for all the subtly variant spellings and the difference between Campbell River First Nation and Campbell River Indian Band; I went with the former as it's on the treaty websites and their own organization pages; varies from people to people as some of the Interior groups are known to prefer Indian Band for some reason; well, sometimes. Anyway, on the linked page please note my comments about the need for a First Nations governments article (or singular for the title - First Nations government) which would be about the differences/nature of the Indian Act-created regimes/organizations and traditional governments/society; seems necessary. Anyway, probably will take the rest of the night off although 'Namgis First Nation and the other non-Kwakiutl District Council Kwakwaka'wakw governments need stubs created yet; will try and sort out all of BC, because I may be the only person who understands Wikicode well enough at the same time as having half a handle on the structure, such as it is, or BC First Nations government-dom; it's amazing, in the sense of "a maze"....Skookum1 09:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

plan is that Kwakwaka'wakw becomes an "ethno" article like Skwxwu7mesh (or is that Skxwxu7mesh? - I'll get it right one of these times...); it's already a category name (Category:Kwakwaka'wakw). Btw what do I do about the Comox First Nation (whose ethno article will be K'ómoks, with redirect from Comox people (Island); I know they're culturally Kwakwaka'wakw now, and allies of the Laich-kwil-tach, but are they also still connected to Salishan identity, and the Sliammon, Toba and Homalhko peoples? (whatever the proper local names for those are)......just wondering if they should have the Kwakwaka'wakw stub as well as the equivalent for whichever Salishan grouping they may still be affiliated to, or identified with.Skookum1 09:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Comox is a doosey. Apparently the Campbell River were getting pushed down further, so they ended up pushing down the Salishan nations. What is now Campbell Rivers and Cape Mudge, used to be Salishan country. But, it's all inter-tribal war-fare and all that. I recomend: both. They have connections to the Kwakwaka'wakw and to the Salish historically. OldManRivers 10:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The one I'm amazed isn't created considering the recent activities in the media in BC is BC Treaty Process. It's a topic on British Columbian I imagine, although it's a dying horse that needs to be shot (with regards to the Indigenous Nations). Indians selling stolen land. pfffff

I'll get back to with some bloglinks about this; it's making the rounds in the non-mainstream news community, as the view on the Tsawwassen and Maa-nulth and the Victoria-area treaty deals (Tsawout? Tseycum?) is that the only reason they're taking place is because Campbell et al. want the land/resources in question; in Tsawwassen's case to get some land out of the ALR in order to expand the superport...on native land; and there's a theory or two it's tied into Ledgegate, too....more later.Skookum1 10:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyways, I'll follow up on what you've done and see where I can go with it. I'm a little iffy about creating the pages based on the Treaty groups. I'll see how I can think of a better way. It's a real maze to sort this all out, neutrally. Hmmm, I'll have to think about it. OldManRivers 10:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm creating articles on the treaty groups, but not basing the overall structure on them, but rather on the tribal councils; the reason to have the treaty groups article is because people will see the name in the newspaper and look it up; it's a parallel subgroup/political organization, but thet idea is the tribal councils are the structural format that's been around for years that most people have half a handle on; even if it's fractured like crazy with gone-solo bands all over the place like the Pacheedaht and N'quatqua and Chehalis, and the amazing maze of overlapping - geographically, not politically - groupings of the Nlaka'pamux; and the existence of multi-tribal tribal councils like the Carrier-Chilcotin Tribal Council or the Nicola Tribal Association; amazed me that there's a border-crossing tribal council the Okanagan Nation Alliance, which includes the Colville Reservation (where everybody's at least part Okanogan, and a few other things besides); probably happens with the Ktunaxa/Kutenai but I haven't got that area sorted out yet....more on this later; it's late and I was going to finish the Musgamagw Tsawataineuk Tribal Council next, before bed....Skookum1 10:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
PS I already noted the need for a BC Treaty Process article, at least a stub if not a start, and that's another reason why the treaty groups need separate articles; even if they're flashes in the pan they're still historical entities/orgs; the Maa-nulth Treaty Group, redirect from Maa-nulth, are all members of the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council - just not all of them. It's wonderfully disorganized...I wish provincial and federal governments were this decentralized.....even if they are beasts of the Indian Act, that is.Skookum1 10:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, your settler government only portrey the vision of democracy. Maybe one day, settler governments will have true democracy, liberty, and justice. Ya Basta! 10:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


So, just to clarify. How have you set up the organization. If I remember correctly it goes

  • Political Indian Act Governments
  • Political Unities, Alliances, and Groups
  • Cultural and Historical Groups
  • Communities, Villages, Reserves
  • Languages
  • Mythology/Spirtuality/Religion (This I really hate. With the Indigenous people, it's "mythology", but with settler society it's "Biblical Origin Stories". We may not be noble savages we're set out to be, or the tree hugging hippies, or even the aboriginal capitalistic businessmen, but people still follow and practice the ancient ways. Don't mean to blog, but I felt I had to say)

OldManRivers 10:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

It always digusts me how Euro-American centric wikipedia can be, along with history text books. "Captain Cook discovered the Hawaiian Island" or "Christopher Columbus discovers America". Ah frak off. Oh, where was I? OldManRivers 10:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If that's the organization, some way to web it would be good. It's all linking to each other, and back and fourth. OldManRivers 10:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll try and lay out the whole system; but have a look at the articles listings in the Indigenous peoples of North America WikiProject and look for tables laying things out in the different categories; there's reasons this evolved but I'm just following the tide; pretty much you've got it right up there except that the "Poitical Unities, Alliances and Groups" would more likely fall under the Cultural and Historical Groups; the point of the Indian Act governments articles is the same in the states, although under different legislation/treaties; the Reservation agencies/governments are in the same category; sometimes, or sort of; note though that the agency/government of a reservation isn't in the same category as the communities, villages, and reserves; one is the governing body, the other is the item itself; one the parasite, the other the host, as it were; so the reserve/reservation/community articles are community and geography articles like any other, except that they're interlinked with the cultural and political articles and so on. Complex, huh? It gets worse, but I'll save that for tomorrow. In the meantime have a look at Talk:Gray Sails The Columbia, or maybe the debate has moved to Talk:Robert Gray (sea-captain).....and check out Talk:Oregon boundary dispute and Talk:Oregon Country - the latter one is especially, even shockingly, absent of any Native American content, the first one doesn't discuss the native sentiments at all; not that it can't be added, it's just that the Yankees who've mostly written that page haven't even stopped to think about it; I try to remind them from time to time, but it's hard enough to get them to listen to giving equal time to the British side of the dispute - never mind the First Nations/Native American one!!Skookum1 11:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify:
except that the "Poitical Unities, Alliances and Groups" would more likely fall under the Cultural and Historical Groups;

...because the way I understand it, it's impossible to separate the traditional "governments" from the culture/history/people - these are what I term "ethno" articles, but not limited to "ethnography", and which your Skxwxu7mesh article fits into, vs the Indian Act Squamish Nation thing; so likewise Kwakwaka'wakw is the "ethno" article, while the various tribal councils, including the one that uses that name, are the Indian Act beasties. ...the mythology articles aren't in this categorization system; they're kind of outside it, and there are subcats of Category:First Nations that are crossovers of other hierarchies, like Category:Native American mythology or Category:First Nations mythology, and speaking as a confirmed ancient-variety pagan (I've sacrificed at Delphi and Delos...) I don't particularly like "mythology" as a term either, because it infers un-truth and doesn't give credit as "religion" (in the unorganized, unhierarhical sense); but it's a Wiki convention. By the way stop by Talk:Indian Wars and look for my posts; also Talk:Native American wars, which is where the Yanks decided all the Indian Wars (between each other or with non-natives) outside the US should go; even though Native American is a US-only term; there's been a cat change in that respect lately but I still don't like putting Chilcotin War, for example, on Native American wars.Skookum1 11:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Draft guidelines re organization of articles

Hi; I was about to start stubbing Stó:lō Nation and its component bands/First Nations and wound up writing the following on the Talk:Stó:lō page: Skookum1 05:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I seen that group or whatever it's called, but the "First Nations on Vancouver Island". It's my suggestion that it should rather reflect the different groups; Kwakwaka'wakw, Nuu-chan-nutlh, Salishan. Groupings of all the Kwakwaka'wakw, grouping of all the Coast Salish nations, grouping of all the Nuu-chan-nutlh. I know it's an English wiki (which obviously means it's going to be bias from the start), but I think it would make more sense to do that. An example is Kwakiutl District Council. And instead of putting "First Nations" or "Indian Band", but the name of that group, unless of course, the article is talking about the Indian Act organization. I just think the people/ethno pages would be the more readily excessable and up front. OldManRivers 05:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I try and make a point of making the ethno articles linked in the content of the government articles, sooner the better. Thing is with, say Skowkale vs Skowkale First Nation, is the distinction between the historical community/culture and the creature of the Indian Act; the person who created those templates wasn't aware of all this, nor of the shifting and sometimes always-changing band names, from First Nations to Band to Indian Band, sometimes without any of that, and switching from the aboriginal placename, to the form that is the aboriginal place name + aboriginal root for people (e.g. Canoe Creek Band/Dog Creek Indian Band, who are the Stswecem'c and Xgat'tem, where the -em'c and -em means people and the placename (IR name sometimes, though in variant/archaic spelling often enough) is Stswec and Xgat't (those are just guesses, but you get the idea). So Stswecem'c would necessarily be the ethno article, Stswec for the place, Stswec First Nation (or, depending on preference of the band, Stswecem'c First Nation and, if there were a separate language/dialect, something like Stswecem'cets (modelling that on St'at'imcets but could be -tsin as on Nlaka'pamuctsin (sp?). Whatever; it's a tangled web and nothing seems permanent; thing is what has to be remembered is that someone using Wikipedia to look up the native poeple of a given place aren't going to know to look for Stwsecem'c but they probably have heard "Canoe Creek", or the "Canoe Creek Indian Band". The same applies to Skxwxu7mesh Uxwuimixw vs Squamish Nation, or Skxwxu7mesh-ullh vs. Squamish people. Bear in mind that linkability is part of the idea with Wikipedia; someone else writing an article which may mention the Squamish people can't be expected to know Skxwxu7mesh or the special small-k character, or how to make the accent marks and special apostrophes used the correct (non-English) forms of Nuxalk, St'at'imc, Sto:lo etc.....Skookum1 06:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Just a hopefully quick postscript. I just finished Stó:lō Nation, as in the tribal council government for the Stó:lō and earlier made Ktunaxa Kinbasket Tribal Council, but haven't set out to do their member government stubs as I need a break from this stuff for a while; back to ghost towns and geography for a bit; I've been running OCD-overtime on First Nations the last couple of days. I hope my guidelines aren't too cumbersome; somewhere in the Indigenous peoples project talkpages or their archives is the discussion/exchanges which set all this out for me; I've made a decent stab lately at fleshing out the Nuu-chah-nulth, Okanagan, Nlaka'pamux, and the Kwakwaka'wakw that belong to the Kwakiutl District Council (there's that word again, but it's the one they use....) so for now I've done quite a bit; I've got a bunch of books on ghost town stuff that need to go back to the library, or rather to be renewed, and my attention deficit thing means I'm finding the need to roam different topic matter for a bit....;-) Anyway, as everything's on my watchlist doubtless I'll still be kibbitzing, but I'm feeling swamped, so am gonna crash on the couch and read about Phoenix, Antler, Granite City and Old Hogem (as in "Hog 'em", because the storekeeper was such a rip-off artist...) and more...have fun 'boarding; if I know I'm going to be on the Shore I'll try and let you know ahead of time and we can do the Vancouver thing and have coffee or whatever.Skookum1 06:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
That sounds good. You have been doing a lot on these so thanks. Next week I'm hoping to take a stab at more tings too and learn more about wikipedia. Have good one OldManRivers
Please see Talk:Kwakwaka'wakw. And despite my bravetalk in my preceding post, I just "finished off" the Carrier and Chilcotin Tribal Councils and most of the bands (except for the Carrier ones), and tidied up loose ends in Nlaka'pamux. Still don't know where to start with Sto:lo and downriver bands and south island; need to know what tribal councils, if any, are involved; and what do with independents like the Chehalis (Chehalis people might be an OK title for the ethno article, Chehalis First Nation obvious enough, but Chehalis currently refers only to the Washington state Chehalis (tribe).....Skookum1 22:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Get their actual name and use that? That is a doosey though. OldManRivers 06:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
What is it? I made both Noxws'a7aq people (a redirect, like other variations including the misspellings) and Noxws'a7aq language, which is the Nooksack spelling for themselves (I wrote their info person to ask what the proper name of the language is, also, as I suspect it's not Nowxs'a7aq but something slightly different). There's also Scw'exmx out there...So fire away; although maybe I can find out from their website, if they have oneSkookum1 09:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I just looked - they use Sts'Ailes - but from what you're implying above it seems that that's not Sto:lo-brand Halkomelem spelling; but it would seem proper to use their preferred spelling, not so? Their webpage is a flat grey and the webmaster's asking for I guess I'll write to ask if they have a name for their dialect (as I understand there is one, that's slightly different even from the Scowlitz just down the Harrison River a bit...), and perhaps as noted they have a different spelling system than regular Upriver Halkomelem (Halqemeylem I think it's spelled/called, at least in Halkomelem....) and also get some info for at least stub articles....damn I make a lot of work for myself (and arguments, too: see Talk:Oregon Country for some fun....which I'm backing away from, as it's more work - and stress -than I need right now....). As for Chehalis/Sts'Ailes, I still need to come up with a "Chehalis" search format to distinguish 'em from the Chehalis WA bunch; who according to one of my sources are a branch-off of the BC ones, resulting from the Flood...(legend only)Skookum1 19:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, it's all confusing and complex because of the diversity right. Hmm, I'm not sure how to do that though with th Chealis WA stuff.OldManRivers 19:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah the Noxws'7aq and the Skwxwu7mesh a closley related. Like, our elders can speak to there elders close. Almost the same language. Our history says they broke off from some of the canoes tied to Mount. Garabaldi during the flood. OldManRivers 19:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Similarly, the Chehalis-Chehalis split is supposed to be off canoes that were moored/grounded on Sumas Mtn.Skookum1 20:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, it's like that all over the coast. Mt.Baker and Mt.Garibaldi for my people. OldManRivers 20:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Gunsight Peak for the In-SHUCK-ch, and another in the upper Pemberton Valley for the Lil'wat (they'd lived at Green Lake, now Whistler, before the flood...makes me wonder if it wasn't because what is now the Lillooet River was either filled with ice/glacier, or water); I've started adding the Indigenous project template to various mountain entries, e.g. Mount Meager; probably should be on Garibaldi, Baker, Tahoma (Rainier) etc., too...all need FN/Native American content sections, I'd say.....Skookum1 21:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Found this re our other discussions

Can't quite remember how I found this: First Nations Government (Canada) but I thought I should fly it by you for input; see Talk:First Nations Government (Canada) for my current points on it; it's late so I'll wait until morning to circulate it by active BC project/Indigenous project editors for their thoughts and possible action. It was written by Bill Poser from the Yinka Dene language institute up in PG, who's generally a linguistics contributor (I actually stuck out the olive branch and asked him to look into various things to do with the new language articles/stubs and the Talk:Coast Tsimshian stuff, but TheMightyQuill is the editor who's taken an interest, so far.....g'night.Skookum1 09:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Your thoughts on something

Hi; please see Wars/conflicts without names on the List of conflicts in Canada talkpage.Skookum1 21:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion on template names

Please see Names for needed First Nations templates. Thx. Skookum1 20:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Squamish Nation

Hi. Just saw your new changes on Squamish Nation; it's dangerously close to POV, ie. has an "anti" tone to it; facts can be presented and cited, but forceful language is generally frowned upon unless it's citable; for one thing it's "original research". I appreciate your position and know the argument well, but this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not an invective or a tract; information about how these governments run, including budgets/priorities, powers, programs, economic development etc. is what's called for on the "Indian Act" government pages. It's not supposed to be a politicized article, and politicized content you can expect will eventually get edited; it's enough to explain that the Indian Act governments, being imposed by the white man, are not recognized as a legitimate political expression by many Squamish, as in other First Nations, but they remain constituted because of the absence of any treaty recognition/reconciliation and the displacement, inherent in the Indian Act and reserve systems and associated laws/treatment of native people destroying their societies and pre-extant self-government. Keep it simple; and avoid words like "stolen" which will often readers, ie. as the narrator; fine in quotes but a neutral tone is de rigeur in Wikipedia wherever possible. I have to back off from a lot of my own polemic all the time; your viewpoint is needed, and properly the encyclopedia can't grow without it, and view points like it, but you have to be careful not to browbeat or preach, especially repeatedly. Explain the situation, cite what you can about it, but be factual, not emotional, and it'll be a better article. No offense, just trying to be helpful....Skookum1 07:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I know. But I felt like putting it on there till someone else fixed it. I'm not the greatest encyclopedia writer, but I do have knowledge and information to share. Thanks for caring enough to share OldManRivers 08:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Also I'll add this. There is still way more Euro-american bias out there then one my little article on my people. OldManRivers 22:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I just added this to the Howe Sound talk page:

All your suggestions would all be great to add, as it would fill a void in a lot of the stuff in this article and elsewhere on Wikipedia. Really enjoying reading the stuff you've already done, and will be glad to help copy-edit or whatever as needed. It's all vital stuff and too often missing/ignored from textual history. As for the above point, encyclopedic style is rather unforgiving for expressing histories of oppression and the impact of things like the Indian Act, etc. I'd be happy to use my writing skills to try and rework stuff like that, to make it encyclopedic without sacrificing the sentiments and meaning expressed. I believe it can be done. Thanks for the good work here.--Keefer4 00:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
That would be good. I've been known for my spelling and grammar mistakes. I think I have this thing where I write how I speak; from the heart. And thus I've been afraid to conform to acedemic, or in this case, encyclopediac standards. Anywho, any editing or re-writing would be great. That is what wikipedia is about right. It's also interesting to note that the information I've added and people who look at these pages. I think the Squamish Nation and subsiquent articles would be important with context to the 2010 Olympic Games (boo!). Anyways, proof-read away. OldManRivers 07:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


Just wrote this and figured to ask you to check it, maybe expand it with some examples (I'll be adding the Lillooet ones, and some quotes from books using it, later tonight). As for the recommended feature article, I know Sauk-Suiattle down in the Lushootseed-speaking turf has an "A" rating from the Indigenous peoples' project; I think there may be better examples and if you shop around the indigenous project's articles ratings (I'll see if I can find their featured-article category later) there might be good examples. Within BC, although they're disorganized, the ethno/people depth on the Tsimshian and nearby peoples' pages is often impressive; especially the discussion of the chiefly lineages and (er, um) the ethnographers/ethnographic literature; harder to do with the Skwxwu7mesh and hereabouts maybe, but certainly much in need as branch-offs from Kwakwaka'wakw, I'd say. I'll look around later to see if there's any examples I like in particular; as it is I've been cleaning house and doing the occasional wiki'ing, but it's clear out right now and my guitar is calling me to the park so I can stomp out some mojo. Later.Skookum1 23:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

West Van/Capilano River/Stewart Phillip

Hello. I noticed there was no reference whatsoever to the Sḵwxwú7mesh people in the West Vancouver or Capilano River articles. Now, I realize West Van is a merely colonial/settler applied name to an area, but to leave out any Sḵwxwú7mesh reference altogether just feeds ignorance as far as I'm concerned. On a different topic, I left my two cents on Talk: Stewart Phillip, I think Skookum1 should also have a look at it and leave his thoughts there. Later.--Keefer4 09:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, West Vancouver, North Vancouver, and the North Shore I think should get some references. I'm surprised Cap River doesn't have any. I wanted to link that to Joe Capilano and Xwemelch'stn, but I'll get around to it one day. Oh yeah, and thanks for the Stewart Phillip stuff. I've had a few chats with Stewart (not about, and he's a very interesting fellow. And knowing his work, beliefs and values, I highly doubt he would want to be called "Canadian". OldManRivers 18:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Nearly all municipal articles make the same omissions, or similar ones; so it's not just the West Van and North Van and related articles to consider; it's towns like Cambpell River and Port Hardy and Hope and Kelowna and so on, which are integral with their surrounding reserves (even truer of smaller places like Lillooet, Lytton, Mt Currie, Savona, Merritt). I'll leave off for now but just a reminder to be on the lookout for similar absences of FN information in other municipal and regional articles, all of which should be addressed at some point.Skookum1 23:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Squamish Nation/Skwxwu7mesh-specific re West Van, was there any mention (haven't looked) of the underlying title beneath Park Royal and the property developments along there, which are so much part of West Van's own identity; and I know of, or did know of, more than one business which had offices in the Park Royal Tower because of the different legalities of being located on a reserve; at some point I hope you can expand on the details of which terminals and parks and so on are leased from the Skwxwu7mesh (via their Indian Act government, that is), and the same information should be in the North Van and West Van articles, though from different contexts of course.Skookum1 00:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Park Royal (South side and the Village) are under a 99 year lease, which is almost half way through. The Squamish Nation is number 1 in Canada for making revenue off of leases. Where else is there leased land? ummm, not completely sure. I just know I'll be an elder, or close to, when Park Royal is back under the band councils governance. Oh, and half of Ambleside Park is reserve land. The entire golf course is. Along with the wharfs by Lions Gate Bridge. OldManRivers 02:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yer opinion on list title pls

Please see Talk:List of Placenames of Indigenous Origin in the Americas and tell me whatcha think; is the title he's got OK as it is, or what would be preferable?Skookum1 23:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Orthographic redundancies

Just came across some old notes I wrote on Talk:Tsilhqot'in; thought you might crack a smile at 'em, and maybe help me untangle (or just delete) the quoted sentence as utterly redundant and, well, almost comical in its earnestness.Skookum1 20:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

More goodies

See this. I'll be back there just now to add ref to the Talk:Stewart Phillip stuff; but he's regular Indigenous project member, and not unknowledgeable; I've been the only one (in BC) who's been hardcore about the community/culture vs government/band distinctions; I'm about to rewrite the intro to First Nations in British Columbia because of all the potential/shifting meanings, and how the convention is that "First Nation" in an article title by default goes to the band government/Indian Act beastie, except in the case of the Nisga'a Nation, properly named the Nisga'a Lisims but as of the treaty now the same thing; although Nisga'a Nation was used by an Indian Act-based Tribal Council before the treaty and that should get mentioned on that article's page; its official name AFAIK is Nisga'a Lisims, just as if/when a non-Indian Act Skwxwu7mesh government is somehow constituted/treatied, it would/could be officially Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimuxw, unless Skwxwu7mesh-ullh Uxwuimuxw is preferable). Anyway, please drop by my talk page and have a look on what I left on Might Quill's own talkpage.Skookum1 09:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


Don't know what it is lately - pls see User talk:Themightyquill‎ in the section "not just a gov". Quill for some reason has been converting "government" First Nation articles into "people" First Nations articles. Complicated; pls see notes there and bear in mind other recent discussions.Skookum1 18:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Central Coast peoples

Hey. Just taking a breather but dropped by after a quick fix to Heiltsuk Nation, adding their old/wrong name Bella Bella and other little fixes in those articles - about to write Xai'xais, the Klemtu branch of the Heiltsuk who share a band government, and Klemtu, with a Southern Tsimshian people. This got me wondering about how to do a template for peoples in this area; name-wise of course; I've thought of {{Peoples of the Central Coast of British Columbia}} - as I can't just put "Central Coast peoples" as that's a disambig problem for sure; or "BC Central Coast peoples"; but even if that's an acceptable term, and I'm not sure is it - as there's no collective indigenous name for these three peoples - I'm not sure where the Central Coast begins and the South Coast starts; I've always assumed Campbell River but might Queen Charlotte Strait be part of the South Coast? Seems more likely to be Central Coast, or not? Reason is that if it's Campbell River then "Central Coast" takes in all the same as {{Kwakwaka'wakw First Nations}} and {{Kwakwaka'wakw peoples}}, so there's no point in THAT title; effectively it's as useless, or too broad anyway, as the old Vancouver Island one, even though there might only be six bands (and only three peoples/languages, plus any dialects) in total when it's finally made; maybe ten, I wouldn't know. So any ideas? I can't use "Northern Kwakiutl First Nations/peoples" either, of course - not that I would - but I'm at a loss for what else to call these people as a group, if they can or should be labelled as a group that is, for the purposes of making a template? Is that too cheap a reason? On parting, maybe "of the North and Central Coast of Brtish Columbia" could incorporate the Haida and the Tsimshian; although to me the North Coast would include the Gitxsan and Nisga'a - I've never been up there so don't know if that's correct; just going by the TV weather guy's region breakdowns '-0 - there's only a couple of Haida bands/villages, and not that many Tsimshian I think; maybe it's better to have them all together? But if we combine "them" (the Central Coast peoples/govs) with the North Coast, why not just incorporate them in a template with the Kwakwaka'wakw. But if we do, then what to call it? Oh - four peoples, the Bella Coola/Nuxalk would seem to be obvious on the same template, although they're Salishan. OK, gonna chow.Skookum1 02:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The simple anwser: no. I think trying to figure out labels, and terms, and that kind of things if really colonial (from an Indigenous stand point), and it would be better to just have them on there. If we have a major page for "Indigenous of the North West Coast" or something along those lines, it could have everything on every Indigenous people/nation in the North West Coast including the Washinging state because, as you know, we didn't cross the boarders, the boarders crossed us. So simply put, if there isn't anything that has been used for a long time (Coast Salish), we shouldn't try and group these people. Ignorant anthropologists tried to do the same thing, and although it's a bit different, let's respect these people. As for the naming titles, my suggestion is Blah Blah First Nation, being the indian act thing, then the actual name of the people, like Blax Blax instead. OldManRivers 03:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Harriet Nahanee pls

And I can't think of anyone more appropriate to ask to write or start a Harriet Nahanee article, unless perhaps she was too close to you. There's some interesting stuff on the Tyee relating to this matter, by the way, and I have a piece by Robin Matthews about the whole general situation which you'd probably want to read; I'll see if I can find you in my email boxes and I'll forward it to you. But I would feel wrong trying to write an article on her, knowing that you're here, and I'd only be going on what I'm getting off the independent media and what little there is in the big media. Anyway, if you don't want to pls say so and maybe I'll toss it by Ken or Keefer or Bobanny.Skookum1 02:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

PS - what's "nahani/nahanee" mean; seen it my whole life of course, in one way or another, just beng from here....Skookum1 02:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's totally do it. I'm game. Me and my friends started [] for her, and been watching it closely. I wasn't that close to her. I'm related to her children and grandchildren. I'm not sure what to do, so I would need lots of help with it. Tell me what to start on, what to go on, etc. I'll start working on it now, but I will need major help with it for neutrality and adding information. She has really inspired many Indigenous youth across North America and what happened is absolutly atrocious. I'll start it very soon. Also, Nahanee comes from Nahahu (sp?). You know the history of Vancouver. Remember all the Hawaiians that settled up here. Well one of them married a Skwxwu7mesh woman, who was my great grand auntie. That then spawned the Nahanee family. Somehow the priests screwed it, and it became Nahanee, but it was different before. Something related Kanaka, but I'm not sure completely sure on that families history. Talk to you soon. OldManRivers 03:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
You hear about the Olympic Flag? Hilarius hey. CTV came by the office today and wanted to get someone to voice against what's being said by native politicians such as Bill Williams, etc. That article you sent me was awesome. Send me anything you want. I like reading this stuff. Plus, you always send me interesting things. OldManRivers 03:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
CREATED! All I need help with is references and citations, etc. You have news clippings you said yes? Thanks OldManRivers 04:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
For now is the Tyee writeup; it's possible to reference individual posts; otherwise search her name in and and of course google, and give it a day or two and I'll betcha there'll be a lot more. Robin's name is highly-respected and he punched a lot of very sensitive buttons in that article; and IMO Betty Krawczuk is not going to learn humility in jail; anything but, especially because of Harriet. And it's Harriet, right, not Harriett? The Tyee had it with that spelling so I'd adjusted it, thinking it was correct. An article on the Nahanee family would also seem a propos, partly to establish that when people see/hear it around Vancouver it's not a reference to the Nahanni....anyway, g'nite, I have a friend coming over to chew some fat. Looks pretty much like Eagleridge Bluffs has to get written as fairly high-priority, and I'm not sure if there even are neighbourhood articles for West Vancouver; some places have interesting (post-Contact) stories, e.g. Caulfield, Whytecliffe, and I imagine there may be Skwxwu7mesh lore we might hope to see alongside them (??!). Ledgegate's about to boil over in the next week or two, by the way, partly because of a submission to the court by the same Robin Matthews; I'll find the Tyee link for it for you.Skookum1 07:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Joe Capilano

Just happened to see your edit of this; I'd like to suggest that there be a separate article on Capilano/Kiyapilano (or whatever its proper Skwxwu7mesh language spelling is) in terms of the lineage and title; Capilano could then be a disambig page, especially because of the river, lake, misnomer for Cleveland Dam, electoral districts, Capilano Road etc. and come to think of it, on a different take, an article at some point on the Capilano route for a Hwy 99 bypass to Furry Creek, which has been in the news on and off for so many years that it's definitely notable (also once proposed for a high-speed rail route to Whistler and beyond if the Cascadia Maglev ever went to build-out; some letter to the editor once even proposed it for a Skytrain extension to Whistler - old Olympics-related wet-dreaming...). Anyway, back to the point: articles on individual chiefs bearing the name are appropriate, and that's also by the way where your pre-whiteman history can come into play, as I also did on Nicola (chief) - thought that's all drawn from Teit and I'd love to get someone from the N'kwala people, maybe the contributor to Scx'ex'nx/Shackan, to provide the other point of view; again the oral history problem, unless they've put something into publication, even a curriculum/textbook, that could be cited. So with Kiyapilano and Qhatsahlano (sp?) those could/should exist as separate articles, and individuals bearing the name also get their own articles; this will/should also happen with Maquinna and Chilliheetza and Wickaninnish and other lineage-names (see Talk:Maquinna for somebody from out there's comment about this).

Somena and Talk:Somena re Cowichan peoples

Your thoughts here, and any knowledge you have of the Cowichan groups and their history or organization, would be appreciated; it's been quiet on both sides/pages of the Somena article for a long time now but she (I think it's a she) does raise some very pointed issues; "Cowichan peoples" is another one of those arbitrary groupings based on geography or apparent unity or outside perspective; sounds like, according to Somena, they were all intermingled variously in the valley. But anyway, "the Cowichans" is the outside/hwelitum misnomer for a group, but there's no Cowichan Nation, but rather several Cowichan nations all in the same area, so Cowichan people, even though a misnomer, is what people are going to recognize/search for; and because there's no collective name for the group in their own language, Hunquminum (or Hulquminum? can never keep track of the difference...), so the quasi-English misnomer applies; and it, too, would come off a disambig page Cowichan (think it already exists) as with split-off articles from disambigs on Capilano, Kitsilano and other native-derived English versions of native names, plus (on the disambig page I think is best) an explanation/translation of the name. More on this later; just cooking lunch and it smells scorched....Skookum1 22:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow that article needs some major work. And I thought I was about about my people OldManRivers 22:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Nicola (people) vs Nicola Athapaskans vs Stu'wix/Stuwix

The articles here were originally Nicola people and Nicola (people), with one about the "modern" use of Nicola (for a people, even though it's also historical) vs the ethnographers'/linguists' tendency to use "Nicola people" to mean the Athapaskan-speaking Stu'wix; somebody merged the two articles and missed the point of the distinction between the Nicolas of the usual sense - the peoples of the Nicola Alliance - and the linguistic meaning; so they merged stuff that shouldn't be merged; I re-inserted a section header "Nicola Athapaskans" and it's my intent to split that content off. But here's the rub - "Stu'wix" or "Stuwix" is the Scw'exmxtsn word for them - "strangers" - so that's not their own name. On the one hand I suppose it's better to use an indigenous name vs a non-indigenous one; except that Nicola is sort of an indigenous name, even without its nativized spelling of N'kwala; but of course it doesn't refer even to an Athapaskan chief, but a Nicola-Shuswap one; so for lack of anything else, the new main article should be Stu'wix to avoid confusion, even though it's a Nlaka'pamuxtsn/Scw'exmxtsn name (Stuwix currently redirects I think); but that would seem preferable over an Anglo-French nickname-name, no? Thoughts?Skookum1 22:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

That map

Hi; somewhere, maybe on Talk:Kwakwaka'wakw, you posted this maplink which I just had a look at. It's got major problems - the St'at'imc boundary is all wrong, and gives half their territory to the Nlaka'pamux and shows Chilko Lake in their territory, which just ain't so; the Okanagan boundary includes Ashcroft and Merritt.....seems to be accurate on the Coast but the Interior there's major problems with it. There's another language map I'm looking to find again, linked on one of the existing pages but I can't remember which one; it uses BC MapPlace to display the language areas; when I find it again I'll post it here for your reference and because it's worth linking on all language pages...Skookum1 19:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I kind of assumed it wasn't correct in some way, just forgot to mention that it might be wrong. I've seen other maps, but only in person, nothing online. If you find them map, thanks. I think maps on the BC Indigenous cultures/nations/languages would greatly get a better understanding. I don't know how many times I've met xwelitn in Vancouver, I tell them I'm Squamish, but our real name is Sḵwxwú7mesh, and they assume I come from the town of Squamish, that the Squamish Indians only live in Squamish. They don't even know of the rezerves in North Vancouver (or Kits for that matter). I just assume these are people who've only moved to the Lower Mainland in the past 2-3 generations. OldManRivers 19:33, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
The map's embarrasingly bad - check out the Nooksack territory, which I suspect you'd have a thing or two to say about; likewise the inclusion of In-CHUCK-ch territory (Lower Lillooet River, upper Harrison Lake) in Squamish territory; with the Okanagans having Shuswap and Kamloops Lakes....and the Nlaka'pamux with the rest of Harrison Lake, which in linguistic terms is Halkomlem (Sts'Ailes/Sto:lo) except for [post-gold rush settlement by] St'at'imc at its north end. And I'm sure it's news to the Wet'suwet'en that the Bulkley River is entirely in Tshilqot'in territory. This map comes from a university.....what's anyway (guess I'll look)?Skookum1 21:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


on my talk page.Skookum1 22:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

"Salish Sea" name

Please please see the discussion between myself and Keefer 4 at Talk:Strait of Georgia.Skookum1 21:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Salish name/word issue

Hi; please see this. I'm at my last couple of weeks in Wikipedia so just tidying up loose ends, and pointing to others. This terminology thing is one that always bugs me and wondering about your thoughts on it; also if I can leave in your "in" basket all the people/reservation/language articles that need splitting up and recategorizing, and in some cases the CanCon elements introduced (e.g. the Kutenai article is near-totally US written). Too much to do overall, although it's funny I have a wider grasp of what all needs doing now, I just have to deal with making a living (which of course Wikipedia doesn't do). Would like to tidy up/resolve the template/categorization issues in BC before I'm gone; but then there's also about 30 articles I'd like to fix/rewrite before I go too....and I'm currently packing, or should be... ;-).Skookum1 20:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Packing? Is this a metaphor for you leaving Wikipedia, or are you leaving somewhere for real? lol OldManRivers 21:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll forward you an email I sent to someone else the other day...Skookum1 21:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey; passing your question on to the person I think most qualified to answer it, and would have asked her anyway even if I had the time to hunt around on my own; many of the Plains people pages are really good, and I think the Tsalagi and other specific ones are probably excellent, look for ones with lots of edits, essentially, indicating lots of content/development (put a bunch of them from the Indigenous project/categories on your watchlist and the number that comes up to the right of each one is how many edits there are...I think). But the wondrous User:Phaedriel - and she is wondrous, as you'll discover (don't blush, dear, if you read this, but I know you're used to compliments ;-0 ) - is easily the most qualified and among the most articulate of all major Wiki personalities, and fair and wise as they come (ooh, those cheeks must be beet red by now....). Anyway, considering that I think the best possible place to send you is Comanche, which is her tribal/peoples wiki-up (to coin perhaps a very bad, but oddly apt, pun), which knowing her is probably not only thorough but well put together and great to look at it; as is her userpage in all its amazing complexity. Anyway, point of this digression is my reply to her about you and your request - I think you're going to find a sister, and also a wiki-sage to guide you through the maze of this places' guidelines and stylistic stuff better than I ever could; and if only I could be as NPOV as she is; I'm gone from Wiki as of Monday at the latest; I'll be in touch via email, and lately I've had reason to come to the Shore quite a bit so I'll send you my phone number or whatever or email you before I know I'm coming and we can "do coffee". I think I could use a good sweat though, if you do let hwelitum in the's been ages...I'd kind of like to sing ya some songs, too, so.....Skookum1 10:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC) " Give me a shout on my email if your in town. I live in xwmelch'stn so. I haven't been to a sweat in ages either (Stopped participating after learning that, it's not my culture). Although I am planning on starting up slahal games in the village (when it gets a tad bit warmer). PS. In snichem we would say xwelitn (plural would be xwelxwelitn, but what ever I know what you mean. lolOldManRivers 10:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm Scandinavian so saunas are part of my culture, as I used to jibe my St'at'imc friends; whatever; maybe a good long dip in the Capilano River to "train" then ;-). xwelitum is Halkomelem, or one dialect of it anyway (Hulquminumin I think); in Lillooet it's sama7, but unlike the coastal names it's not even slightly polite/patronizing as "hungry people" is; so bad I can't get a literal translation out of my St'at'imc friends, who giggle when I ask for one. Slahal sure needs an article, huh? and Lahal, Sla-hall etc redirects ewith "high" priority in the indigenous project classification; "Indian thumb/finger poker" I've heard it described as; some Chilliwayheuk women who came to the first Chinook conference at Toti:lthet (the former St. Mary's Mission in Mission) had us going with a good game of it. Not three or four days worth, thankfully ;-). Almost sent you an email last night, explaining what's going on and also about when I next expect to be on the Shore; probably this weekend, certainly next if not before then.Skookum1 18:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I've been thinking about it and I'm getting convinced that xwelitn and its nuances originated with my people. I plan on adding it (I lent my friend a book of my peoples history, I'm getting it back next week so I'll be adding a lot to the history section). But in it, we have our story about first contact in the Howe Sound. Apparently it was the first Mainland contact with foriegners. Anyways, some people try to translate it to 'hungry people or pale face or things like that, but in my language, it means foreigners. But, it's traveled. To the island, up the Fraiser, on the sunshine coast. I have a strong feeling the word originated with my people. Although we have stories of some of the Nuu-chahn-nulth warning us about the foriegners (specifically the Spanish of course), but we heard about the crazy white people before they got her. ;) OldManRivers 19:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

found an article you may want to go over

Native Countries of North America‎. 'Nuff said.Skookum1 21:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)