User talk:Ottomanist

Clarification needed on Muhammad Ali

Hi, I saw that you added a clarification needed tag to the Muhammad Ali article. What is it about that sentence that you find unclear?--Jahalive (talk) 23:25, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, the website in question seems dubious, like a fan-page for the guru. Ottomanist (talk) 23:20, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

So it's the reference that you are concerned about. A more appropriate tag would be Template:Verify credibility.--Jahalive (talk) 23:47, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that, you're probably right...Ottomanist (talk) 23:49, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Ottomanist. You have new messages at Nedim Ardoğa's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Resolution

Yes we have different opinion about the arguments you presented when you deleted the map of the territory of Albania in 1431 from the section about Ottoman period in history of Albania. I think that your arguments are not valid and explained why. Instead to follow dispute resolution process you personally attacked me, edit warred violating three revert rule (diff1, diff2 and diff3) and repeated the same arguments without convincing anyone.

Since only two of us participated in the discussion on the talk page about the map of Albania in 1431 I followed the advice of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and asked for the third opinion.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:58, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I already asked for an opinion a while ago here. Ottomanist (talk) 17:15, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes you did ask for an opinion and you received one. From administrator Kudpung: Please continue to resolve this issue at [[Talk:Albania]] where it is being discussed. Instead, you continued to revert four other users on this matter.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:33, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure. I think the matter is closer to drawing to a close. - Ottomanist (talk) 22:00, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Time's up

I'm calling time on the disruption you are causing around here. I have reported you here [1]. Athenean (talk) 19:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Re your message; I think the diffs speak for themselves here, and your pointing fingers isn't really helping you. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:34, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

The point is that I answered all the accusations pertaining to specific pages. Then off course I have to make it known the sorts of users who are trying to tarnish my image. moreover, I already made it clear that I am a returning user after three years of inactivity. just to clear that up, I think you're topic ban suggestion is very, very harsh - Ottomanist (talk) 01:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Look, we don't exactly *need* more acrimony in this topic area, and your work there has been remarkably divisive at times. However, we'll see what other admins have to say; I'm not immune to occasionally getting the wrong impression. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:52, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Granted, but you must understand how your comment looks - and how other editors might (naturally) be inclined to accept your default position. It's your call, though a topic ban seems way over the top, especially considering that I have worked *my arse off* to sort out other pages and sections and that the users who have reported me are hardly immune from criticism themselves. - Ottomanist (talk) 01:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Again, I'm persuadable; I've backed down from topic bans before, and I certainly wouldn't close something like this by myself. If you posted the sorts of things you're saying to me at the AE thread, I think you'd have a better chance of convincing other admins of your sincerity. It can't hurt. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:59, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I regret that the title of this thread is "Time's up". I actually invite you to change it, since it's your own talk page. Time's never up for someone like you, who challenges the status quo and wants to bring good sources to rewrite bad parts of wikipedia. In general we have plenty of crap in Balkan related articles which talk about the "Turkish yoke", dictated by political needs of the early 20th century when the history of Albanian lands was being written. Unfortunately administrator "Sandstein" banned me long time ago to contribute to WP:AE, unless I was the party to initiate a complaint or defend myself from one, so I cannot help with saying my opinion on Athenean's wikilawyering there. He just wants to live in peace with Wikipedia's history as written in 1950's Greece. Actually that history's time's up, not yours. Bolerodancer (talk) 23:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

One piece of advice I want to personally give, since I've been around for a while, and racked up 30k+ edits between my nicks and socks (;-)), so have been a heavy contributor in this site: When one wants to introduce certain things in wikipedia, it's mainly through articles that are brand new, and bring a new perspective. Once those articles are consolidated, then certain parts of the existing articles can be changed. If you want to completely rewrite this article, the best way is to first write on the architectural, cultural, and musical Ottoman presence in Albanian lands. The Ottomans have left dozens of bazaars, clock towers, hamams, mosques, tekkes, and other pieces of culture in each angle of the Albanian cities and villages. Why not start from there? If you are an Albanian, you will know the expression "gur gur behet kalaja". Shendet. Bolerodancer (talk) 00:04, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your support. The said user seems to be threatening and stalking you, I actually find that quite distressing - Ottomanist (talk) 01:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

July 2012

To enforce an arbitration decision, you have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 week for making a frivolous and retaliatory AE request. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing arbitration enforcement blocks and follow the instructions there to appeal your block. T. Canens (talk) 05:13, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

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Notice to administrators: In a March 2010 decision, the Committee held that "Administrators are prohibited from reversing or overturning (explicitly or in substance) any action taken by another administrator pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy, and explicitly noted as being taken to enforce said remedy, except: (a) with the written authorization of the Committee, or (b) following a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard (such as WP:AN or WP:ANI). If consensus in such discussions is hard to judge or unclear, the parties should submit a request for clarification on the proper page. Any administrator that overturns an enforcement action outside of these circumstances shall be subject to appropriate sanctions, up to and including desysopping, at the discretion of the Committee."

Topic ban

Under the authority of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, as incorporated by WP:ARBMAC#Standard discretionary sanctions, and for the reasons stated in this AE thread, you are hereby banned indefinitely from all articles, discussions, and other content related to the Balkans, broadly construed across all namespaces. You may appeal this topic ban at WP:AE after six months, and every six months thereafter. You may also appeal this topic ban to AE once within six months of its imposition, or to the Arbitration Committee at any time. T. Canens (talk) 05:19, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Republic of Kosovo and the Medieval Ottoman Period

That is just Frederick's argument, it isn't definitive. You could use similar arguments to relate Kosovo in the Balkan Wars, Kosovo in World War One, Kosovo in World War Two and their relevance to the formation of the Republic of Kosovo, yet they aren't mentioned either; even though they're arguably much more important events leading to the formation of Kosovo than the mediaeval-Ottoman period. What you have to remember is that it is an introduction, not an article on the history of Kosovo. Besides Mediaeval-Ottoman Kosovo is only indirectly relevant unlike the collapse of Yugoslavia and the Kosovo War which are directly relevant to the formation of the Republic of Kosovo. We should only include a brief history which is directly relevant to the article in the introduction. Also I don't appreciate the personal attack, I will report you next time; consider this to be a warning. Enjoy your topic ban too btw. Regards IJA (talk) 15:50, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I am not going to continue a discussion with someone who believes ww1 or the balkan wars were more important events in the historical trajectory of the people who inhabit the republic of kosovo than 500-odd years of incorporation into the ottoman empire. that's both absurd and against logic. good day. - Ottomanist (talk) 01:36, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

All you need to take into account is this. There is a broad history whereby the Albanian population has fought for various forms of self-determination. The Republic of Albania itself celebrates its declaration of independence from 1912. When this happened, the boundary outline included the Vilayet of Kosovo, the entire Epirus region and beyond. The aftermath of the First Balkan War, moreover the Treaty of London 1913 confirmed Albania's present-day territory when the other areas were ceded to Serbia, Montenegro and Greece. Even during WWII, the Albania to emerge included the republic and the Kosovo region. However, the Kosovo that you and I know today only ever took shape from 1946 when it was purposely drawn to incorporate an area in which ethnic Albanians formed a heavy majority. This means that before 1946, there was no existing sentiment to "create a free Kosovo" as doing so then would have been considered separatism by conservative Albanians everywhere. Think about it. The vilayet's capital was Skopje, and sections of Macedonia were densely populated by Albanians and were included within Kosovo. These regions were given to a Macedonian republic in Communist Yugoslavia and no attemps were ever made by Albanians of Kosovo to incorporate these areas into their independent Kosovo plan. To that end, nothing pertaining to the creation of the Republic was known before 1946. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 04:35, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Even if that's a truism, the fact remains that 500-years of incorporation into the Empire brought the long-lasting changes to the Albanians (religion, culture and all those things that come along with those phenomena), who now make up over 90% of the Republic. Oh yeah, the Ottomans also influenced the Serbs, Greeks and Bulgars, though nationalist and then communist-era historians were loath to admit it. -Ottomanist (talk) 10:26, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Albanians only became a majority in Kosovo at the turn of the 20th century. Also name one notable Albanian from Kosovo who was alive during the Ottoman period who played a part in the K-Albanian separatist movement in the 20th century, which was the prelude to the "Republic of Kosovo". The World Wars and the Balkan Wars are far more significant and related events which lead to the Albanian separatist movements of the 20 Century as they took place in the 20th Century. I'm not saying Kosovo under Ottoman rule isn't important, I'm just saying it isn't important enough to be in the introduction. But as I said before the main two events which lead to the formation of the Republic of Kosovo are the break up of Yugoslavia and the Kosovo War, hence why they're included in the "Republic of Kosovo" article. And as agreed on the split up of the Kosovo articles, the entire history of Kosovo is to be on the article "Kosovo" not the article about the "Republic of Kosovo". If you want to put a sentence or two in the article (not the introduction) on how Ottoman rule has influenced the formation of the "Republic of Kosovo" then by all means BE BOLD and do it as long as it is referenced. IJA (talk) 15:08, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

RIGHT. Ottoman rule did influence all populations it controlled, nobody refused that. The Communists generally looked to modernise their states and rid themsemselves of foreign influences and replace these things with traditional emblems - Bulgaria for instance took exception to music with Oriental sounds - but nobody denied Ottoman influence. As IJA rightly says, Ottoman influence brough about change to the traditional Albanian mindset and this has some effect on proponents of the republic. However, none of this warrants the full history chapter. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 17:15, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

@IJA, the idea that Albanians only became a majority in Kosovo at the turn of the twentieth century goes against all non-Albanian, non-Serbian scholarly accounts and is not even worth responding to. I doubt you study in a western institution, because if you did, you would be exposed to such literature. See Mullah Idriz Gjillani, Hasan Prishtina, Isa Boletini, among others for the second part of your question, which again shows your utter lack of knowledge on the subject.

@Evlekis, I would suggest the works of Kitromilides (1996) who looks at the biography of Orthodox priest Dapontes in the 18th century (among others) who's Itinerary is an almost complete record of Balkan geography. We learn how there was a shared sense of time (in the Ottoman period among Orthodox peoples) defined by the ecclesiastical calendar, time revolving around a succession feast days in the Orthodox calendar; Saint’s days etc. Also crucial is the idea of legitimate Ottoman rule that helped to create a ‘shared vision of the world’ among Orthodox Christians in the Balkans in the 18th century. Early Serb uprisings were against warlords and arbitrary janissaries, not the Sultan. Only later did the uprisings take on a nationalist discourse (and hence constructed many myths about Kosovo so as to legitimise Serb expansion). - Ottomanist (talk) 23:57, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Albanian propagandists seem to love that word "myth", you all think it is synonymous with "lie". There is a difference, even a myth has a grain of truth in it - provided you know which way to look. There is no legitimising factor when planning conquests and the ideas behind Serbia's intention to incorporate the entire region within its borders (or split Albanian-populated land with Greece) was down to the non-myth that the old empire did control this region before the Ottoman takeover. The information you provided on the article was the same history lesson about the region itself which appears in several places, it said nothing about any nation ever having planned a Kosovan independent entity and even if this was the case, there was no reason for the Provisional Authority in 1912 to declare an Albanian state including Kosovo is Kosovo had long planned to be an independent republic. Doesn't make sense. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 12:56, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

One more thing. The Kosovo of the early 20th century took its shape in 1881, expanded from previously. Albanians were a slight majority back then. Because of there no being no accurate records and no true Kosovo existing for many centuries, scholars generally state that the time Albanians formed a majority within today's region would have been during the 18th century, so yes, Serbs did not go into the 20th as majority. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 13:00, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I prefer to go by primary sources rather than what historians "argue". Tax records and Censuses from the time back up aka Prove what I say. In 1838 there were 111,500 Serbs (57%) and 91,150 Albanians (42%) and around 2,000 others. Source Ottoman Empire statistics (Dr. Joseph Müller, Albanien, Rumelien und die Österreichisch-montenegrinische Gränze). In 1871 there were 318,000 Serbs (62%) and 161,000 Albanians. Source Colonel Peter Kukulj(Das Fürstenthum Serbien und Türkisch-Serbien, eine militärisch-geographische Skizze von Peter Kukolj, Major). In 1889 there were 182,650 Albanians (47.88%) and 166,700 Serbs (43.7%) in Kosovo. Source (Detailbeschreibung des Sandzaks Plevlje und des Vilajets Kosovo (Mit 8 Beilagen und 10 Taffeln), Als Manuskript gedruckt, Vien 1899, 80-81.). IJA (talk) 16:06, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

IJA, you need to learn the difference between primary and secondary sources: the sources you're referring to are not 'primary', but rely on the collection of statistics from secondary sources. And again, mainstream academia accepts an Albanian majority existed in Kosovo from before the Ottoman conquests. (your cites, moreover, only refer to the 19 century). That's lesson one for a buddying young historian like your self. Second point, the problem with Balkan historians in the past has been the fact that they didn't enter Ottoman archives, nor did they read/understand Ottoman. That's beginning to change. Academics writing in English began this process in the past twenty-to-thirty-years and many fruitful works have come as a result.

To Evlekis, the claim that the Kosovo of the 20th century only took shape in 1881, coupled with your claim that 'no records existed back then' is very ignorant and doesn't merit a response to be perfectly honest. It is well known that the Ottomans kept detailed tax records of everything from number of households to number of mosques. These records have been used by non-nationalist historians to prove Albanians were a majority in 'Kosovo' (regardless of its fluid and changing borders). Moreover, areas like Toplica were almost fully cleansed of their Albanian populations, which means dozens of thousands of people were 'ethnically cleansed' from areas now totally Serb, something nationalists of your ilk fail to ever mention. Ottomanist (talk) 23:22, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Yawn. You just proved that you don't know what a primary source is. The figures are from Censuses and Tax Documents of the Ottoman Empire. The books I quoted are from the same period hence why they're primary sources as they written in that period. Also as you can tell from my previous comment, they weren't Balkan historians and they had access to Ottoman Documents at the time of the Ottoman Empire. Nor did they write in English. Nice try but you failed once again. IJA (talk) 23:59, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Which 'Census and Tax Document' (and why is that in capitals?), so the authors of those books had access to those documents in the 19th century, or do you mean that the authors are using documents from that period. be clearer, though I assume English is not your first language. Lastly, I'll get back to you on some recommended readings soon. - Ottomanist (talk) 23:14, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The Authors are from that period using sources from that period, hence why they're primary sources; as they're of the time. English is my mother tongue as I am English. Never assume. IJA (talk) 18:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

To enforce an arbitration decision, you have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours for violating your topic ban on the page Talk:Kosovo. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing arbitration enforcement blocks and follow the instructions there to appeal your block. T. Canens (talk) 09:09, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

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Notice to administrators: In a March 2010 decision, the Committee held that "Administrators are prohibited from reversing or overturning (explicitly or in substance) any action taken by another administrator pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy, and explicitly noted as being taken to enforce said remedy, except: (a) with the written authorization of the Committee, or (b) following a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard (such as WP:AN or WP:ANI). If consensus in such discussions is hard to judge or unclear, the parties should submit a request for clarification on the proper page. Any administrator that overturns an enforcement action outside of these circumstances shall be subject to appropriate sanctions, up to and including desysopping, at the discretion of the Committee."

Call for research participants

Hi Ottomanist, we are a team of researchers interested in the editing dynamics on different language Wikipedias regarding the topic of Kosovo. We are looking for users who have edited and discussed articles about this topic, and who would be willing to be interviewed for the purpose of this research project. The project is approved by the Wikimedia Foundations´ Research Committee and you can find more information on this meta-wiki page. Research results will be published under open access and your participation would be much appreciated. If you would like to participate you can reach us at interwikiresearch@gmail.com and we will set up an interview in a way that best suits your needs. Pbilic (talk) 11:06, 3 July 2013 (UTC)