Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2006 September 3

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Human Rights Again

Sorry for asking this yet again, but nobody answered my final question: Generally, when someone says that they support human rights, do they mean to say it should be the basis of all law(that human rights can only be violated in order to protect other human rights), or that it is a good supplement, but other laws can overrule it with a good reason? --Life 02:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

We answered your question as well as we can, whether you were happy with the answer or not. We don't know what everybody thinks, we can only tell you what we think. You shouldn't repost as long as your old Q is still listed on this page. StuRat 03:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Heres the real deal, HR is the realm of the UN as they have a HR division that handels that for mankind. Everthing else is bogus PR for politicians. Note to fetus fans and animal lovers HR applies when you are born, not concieved, not when you are a bun in the oven, born. And animals dont have then either. Happy now? Good,-----Hobgoblin

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is just that: a declaration, just like the Declaration of Independence. As such they do not have the force of law. For instance, the proclamation that Life is an unalienable Right does not stop the United States from putting people to death. Individual countries may have laws or constitutional clauses guaranteeing human rights, such as the United States Bill of Rights. For more information I suggest the Human rights portal. --Lambiam^Talk 20:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Life, the thing is that in Britain we never had a written constitution. Most democratic countries did and it included some rights which were guaranteed. In Britain parliament could in theory pass any law it liked without bothering about peoples individual rights. For example, the right to free speech didnt have so much legal basis in Britain as in America. We have very strict libel laws which mean journalists/whistleblowers have to be much more careful in Britain. Arguably those very strong laws breach people's right to free speech and would not be possible in America.

The Human Rights Act in Britain is a way of bringing us into line with the US, European countries, etc, and have a list of rights all in one place. In a way, its a pity that Labour chose the European version rather than the American one, because some people hate Europe so much they are automatically prejudiced against it, whereas those same people would have no problem with exactley thesame text if it wasnt called European. Jameswilson 23:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus, although not anything like as strong or effective, don't forget the Bill of Rights 1689 --Mnemeson 23:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems that, in all of the discussions about HR lately, it hasn't really come up that a big part of the reason to draft guidelines is the effort towards antidiscrimination, yeah? It was brought up that the UN's declaration of human rights was a direct answer to the holocaust. It seems we're still hashing out what we mean by the human in human rights, the same way that every American history teacher loves to talk about the fact that all men created equal around here were (back then) specifically white men with land. We're trying to get away from that sort of thing...and genocide based on religion or skin color or sexual orientation or class, etc. All of this utilitarianism is great and everything (how do you objectively quantify things like total good and total happiness within a population?), but does it talk about race at all? I'm off to read the article, I s'pose.--24.250.33.247 00:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Websites for political discussion

Could someone please recommend to me some websites for discussion of political topics (including utopian topics) that is not dominated by libertarian and/or pro-free-market opinions? It would be a big help, and I thank you in advance for your answers. EDIT: Also please make sure it is not dominated by pro-animal-rights or religious type people. Thanks!!! --Life 02:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Abovetopsecret.com (this is IMO a little out there, but I have found many a substantiated political discussion here) ChowderInopa 03:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo provides: Campaigns Wikia. I haven't yet looked in to it, though, so I don't know if it meets your criteria. I've also got my own political wiki, but that's in Dutch and in part based on a liberal/free market ideology. DirkvdM 05:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Based on Dirk's views, I'm guessing that would be the "donate a nuke to a poor terrorist" site. But, being in Dutch, it could very well say something even worse. StuRat 09:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It's primarily Canadian, but I recommend rabble. Also here on WP: rabble.ca. Hardly any animal rights activists and libertarians. Anchoress 05:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

If you're interested in US-oriented political discussions from an unashamedly liberal (in the US sense) perspsective, Daily Kos is one of the best known. --Robert Merkel 23:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I guess my description was a bit vague, but I am fairly authoritarian(EDIT: not extremely, but relatively extremely compared to most americans), and I was looking for a website favoring that.

For example:

-I believe in government-controlled industries and a government-controlled economy.

-I strongly oppose the hippie movement(except I agree with environmentalism)

-I am against freedom of religion

-I am generally in favor of freedom of speech, but compared to most americans I am "against" it

-I believe human rights in general should be "suggestions"

-I am against democracy, though I am not in favor of dictatorships nor totalitarian regimes

--Life 02:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

What does being opposed to freedom of religion mean ? You want everybody to be forced to follow some particular religion ? Which one ? Would you imprison those who refuse ? StuRat 06:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

If you're opposed to democracy and totalitarian regimes, what are you in favor of, instead ? StuRat 06:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

You're views are rather difficult to interpret. My best guess though is that you'd probably like guys like Lenin, Kruschev and Brezhnev. Stalin though would probably be a bit much for you. A strong clue was your use of the words "utopian" and "authoritarian". As for your views, these three guys would probably agree with you on most of them. 1) They all believed in government-controlled industries and a government-controlled economy, 2) They would surely be opposed to the hippie movement, (though I'm not sure what they'd think of your environmentalist "twist") 3) They were definitely against freedom of religion (except for that particular religion called "atheism"), 4) As you, they would definitely claim to be in favour of freedom of speech, just not as "completely" as the American conception (translation: you're free to say anything you want, just as long as the government doesn't disagree with it), 5) They were completely devoted to human rights in principle, just look at the Constitution of the USSR. However, in practice these rights were regarded at best as "suggestions", and thereby largely ignored. 6) Finally, they were all obviously against democracy, but unlike Stalin, I wouldn't qualify them as "dictators". I'd say they would much better be described as sort of "CEO's" of a completely undemocratic, authoritarian political apparatus. Congratulations Life! Like it or not you're practically the dictionary definition of a Soviet Communist! With that in mind, I'm sure you can find plenty of forums to discuss your views. Loomis 22:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

US Open Rescheduling

With all the recent rain at the US Open (Tennis) in Flushing Meadows, many matches have been postponed. Now, Im curious as to two things. First, do the tournament managers decide to squeeze all the missed matches into the next day, or what? Especially when there are multiple days of rain, this boggles me. Then, ticketing. If someone has tickets, to, say, the Finals (to be played on a Sunday), and the rain causes this day to be postponed, would the ticketholders automatically get into the match the next day, for instance the Monday or Tuesday? Or would they need to go through Red tape to replace their tickets?Thanks so much, ChowderInopa 02:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Depends on the rules of the tournament. Wimbledon, which is notorious for rain, has different refund levels - less than half an hour of play, and less than two hours of play (as I recall). Anything more than that and nothing back. They try to catch up as best as possible (this can be both easier and harder later on - on the one hand, more people have been knocked out, so there are more free courts to catch up on, on the other there are fewer days in which to do it, and they need rest time), and in the unusual event where the finals take place on a day after the tournament was supposed to end, it's free entry on a first-come, first-served basis. Whether or not Flushing Meadows use the same rules, I don't know I'm afraid. --Mnemeson 03:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Soul Kid #1 "We got more bounce in California"

"Bounce" by Soul Kid has in the last year become my most hated song because it sucks penis. I have been looking EVERYWHERE for a music video of it, but cannot find it. Could anyone help me out? By the way, to make sure we are talking the same song, the catch phrase is: "We got more bounce in California, than all y'all combined!!!" Thank you so much, ChowderInopa 03:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

MOBILE PHONE MEMORY

Hi, I have a Sagem MYX6-2 and I would like to know if the phone can handle a 512MB or 1GB memory card. I have heard that if u use a 512MB or more it will "lag" the phone, am I right? I plan on storing music and pics on the phone. THANKS JON

The is the Reference Desk for questions on the topic of Humanities. A better place for this question might be the Computing, or Miscellaneous desks. —Daniel (‽) 08:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd say Computing, although a case could be made for Science. Definitely not here, though. StuRat 08:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Movie title ?

I saw a made for TV movie (I think it was), maybe 5 years ago, where a small prop plane crashed, and the rescuers found it was loaded with cash and the passengers were all dead. They decided to keep the cash for themselves, but the money gradually turned them evil, killing off witnesses and each other. There was snow on the ground for most of the movie. Any idea what the title was ? StuRat 08:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds a bit like A Simple Plan, although probably isn't. The search-films-by-plot thing on IMDB might be useful here. -- the GREAT Gavini 08:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that's it ! Thanks. StuRat 09:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey StuRrat, just as I recommended in the topic beneath this one, IMDB has a special forum just for questions like that (movies of which you don't know the title anymore):[1]Evilbu 21:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a hard time picturing that working very well. Besides, you have to register to use it. StuRat 06:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

You shouldn't. You just start a topic in which you give as much relevant information (the race of certain characters, when you saw it, language, landscapes, in colour or not, length,..) as possible. If you don't get an answer within 24 hours, bump it. Do make a decent title, the board is full of topics entitled "omfgh can ya tell me wath da film is goign copmletly insaneee!!". If only it were ruled like Wikipedia... But yes, you do have to register.Evilbu 15:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Spanish film ?

I saw a short Spanish film in which two children are playing. The boy drops something on the girl's head and knocks her out. He runs home, thinking he's killed her. As the hours pass the community becomes more frantic and boy becomes more and more guilty until finally he eats some poisonous berries.

Then the girl returns with a bump on her head. The boy is begining to succumb to the berries and asks her 'Will you tell my mum I ate the berries?' and she says 'No!' Had me crying my eyes out! Anyone know its name? Rentwa 15:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds a bit twisted but interesting. However, there is a chance you won't find an answer here, as this is not a movie board. I can only recommed asking a question like this(= a movie you've seen but you don't know the title) on this fine IMDB board "I need to know". [2]

Ta! I could also try esp.wikipedia. It does sound a little twisted, like Romeo and Juliet for infants! :) Rentwa 08:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

So who dies? I can't take the suspense.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  15:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

That's how it ends! Too bad, isn't it? Rentwa 09:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Why is Adam's speech censored?

Why is it impossible to get the full transcript of Adam Yahiye Gadahn speech on 2nd Sep 2006? After all he spoke in English. Does not the west believe in Freedom of Speech? Or is it Freedom of Speech for me but not for my enemies. Ohanian 09:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Freedom of speech is not for those who advocate murder/terrorism. Does he fall into that category ? StuRat 09:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Apparently he got to speak, so he wasn't censored. Maybe there was simply no one who actually recorded it and/or did the transcription. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The ideological platform

In short, the “Azzam” video reconfirms clearly, in an English language that academic translators won’t be able to distort, that al Qaeda’s movement worldwide and in the United States is seeking total annihilation or conversion of the enemy: American and other democracies.

That's why they want to censor it, to prevent English speaking people from hearing the undistorted version. Ohanian 09:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really sure if it's being censored or not, but a lot of it is available for convenient viewing on the internet. I for one am grateful for a voice that appears to be able to speak in a rational manner. It is much easier to communicate and have productive dialog with individuals who compose themselves well, though what's really needed is a questions forum.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

On that video, he's advocating murdering civilians, and "debates" whether they should intentionally murder women and children, too. I see no need to talk with anyone with such views, just kill him, before he gets a chance to do what he threatens to do. StuRat 05:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• It's possible that some believe that Gadahn's speech may contain coded signals to terrorist operatives in the United States, and thus not broadcasting the entire videotape, just paraphrasing it, could help prevent the operatives from receiving their signals. See [3] for more on that. --Metropolitan90 00:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Art!

hey im wondering if you could please answer these two questions for me.?

How did art come about??

When did people begin making art?

it would be much appreciated if you could please try and answer them,,,thanks heaps luv xkaylax ←XXkaylaXx 09:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)→

Have you read the article on art? Or the history of art? They may be of help. Dismas|^(talk) 10:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Assuming you mean visual art: Pre-historic art offers some insights and references regarding the second question. As for your first question, it might be older than art history and also depends on what we define as 'art'. See cultural anthropology, art, and aesthetics for starters. ---Sluzzelin 10:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

thank you heaps

James Reeves' children's poems

I am trying to find out something about one of James Reeves' children's poems, but my search has come up with nothing. I do not even know to which poem it relates but here goes: I need to find out what creature in James Reeve's poem is found "...in mellow orchards rich and ripe..." and in which poem is it found.

Any help would be greatly apprecited!

Many thanks! Vic Laville Viclaville 11:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't find anything with that exact quote. The closest poems I found were:

"I turned and looked on heaven awhile, where now

The moor-faced sunset broadened with red light;

Threw high aloft a golden bough,

And seemed the desert of the night

Far down with mellow orchards to endow."

George Meredith, from The Orchard and the Heath

"What is yellow? pears are yellow,

Rich and ripe and mellow."

Christina Rossetti from What is Pink?

I found one mention of orchards in a poem by James Reeves:

"Rockets and Roman candles make

An orchard of the sky,

Where magic trees their petals shake

Upon each gazing eye."

James Reeves from Fireworks

---Sluzzelin 12:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Upon rereading your question, I guess it could be from Reeves's Prefabulous Animiles where he describes creatures such as the catipoce, the chickamingus, the hippocrumb and the snitterjipe. I couldn't find any of these poems online. Sorry. ---Sluzzelin 13:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it is the snitterjipe. apple-eater with luminous eyes, tickling whiskers ---Sluzzelin 19:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

1968 air lingus crash/shootdown?

I see Brits read wikinaut stuff too, goodie, anybody out there remember the Irish sea crash of a passenger plane that may have been accidently (or not) shot down near a m.o.d. missal base in 68. Come on chaps tell us what you think. The offical secrets act never thought of the the internet. Take a chance. Pay no mind to those nasty GCHQ/MI5 goons at your door. That incident seems to be oddly unreported in the historical records.14:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I assume you're talking about Aer Lingus Flight 712. Here is what the Irish Department of Transport released to the press in 2002 regarding this incident. ---Sluzzelin 15:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The Official Secrets Act covers all mediums of communication, but is only binding on those who are specifically subject to it and talking about material they have obtained "professionally". I have no idea why you're waving the name around as though you think it means something. Shimgray | talk | 23:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Blue Oyster Cult Lyrics

Could someone please update the BOC page and provide specific information and explanation about songs and lyrics. Many of the songs have lyrics which aren't immedietely decipherable seem to refer to events or myths of which I have little knowledge.For eg. on the interlinking of songs by phrases and sentences common to both like in 'transmaicon' and 'the red and the black' and the oftenly used address "ladies, fish and gentlemen" . PLease reply on these specific details immediately. What is the song "shooting Shark" about ? Thank You

Here is quite an interesting site offering song interpretations unfortunately it only has four examples of BOC lyric http://www.songfacts.com/search_fact.php?combinedartists=Blue+Oyster+Cult&-Search.x=9&-Search.y=4. BTW The Red and the Black is a book. MeltBanana 15:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, lyrics are a touchy spot on Wikipedia, because some individuals feel that reprinting lyrics enfringes copywrite laws. You can only talk indirectly about the content of songs for so long.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  15:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

the chase

Hello , id like to ask someone if they could find a copy of the painting The Chase by Bernard Sumner. I would like to be able to print out a large copy of it so I could draw it myself . This painting was brought to my attention by reading a book called The Forest by a Mr. Rutherford, which is about the New forest's history , but the picture on the back cover is too small to be able to reproduce properly, as I cannot see the detail very well. I would really appreciate it if someone could help me with this. Thank you very much .

Kelly

I didn't know Bernard Sumner painted too (or is it a different Bernard Sumner?). At any rate I didn't find any artwork of his online. There's a painting by Richard Ansdell titled The Chase. Maybe this is the one you were looking for?---Sluzzelin 18:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I apologise about this. The painters name is actually Leighton Sumner. I have absolutely no idea why I had called him Bernard I wasn't thinking of New Order at the time. Seriously though it would be a real joy for me to be able to draw this painting. Thanks again if any can help. Kelly.

Where is the Ditch family in Williamsburg history in the 1800's?

The Ditch family was a popular family in Williamsburg in the 1800's. In fact they had their own schoolhouse west of the city. It is now a home. It is near the Baker Farm where many of the Ditch family lived and died.

SEVERAL OF THE DITCH FAMILY ARE BURIED IN A CORN FIELD ON THE BAKER FARM (I thought this was illegal) . The tombstones are piled on the farm near the cornfield. I have pictures of them.

Mr Baker took me to this stop several years ago, but has since died. He had records of the DITCH family and copies are now in the hands of a Ditch relative in North Carolina.

I have a copy of the members of the Ditch Family who are buried there.

Your report mentions nothing about the DITCH Family, yet they are in census reports of that time. As far as the first schoolhouse in Williamsburg, I question the validity of any other being first but the DITCH schouse.

How could the researchers write an article and leave out an important family, who wer responsible for building the trown of Williamsburg?

....

Wikipedia's coverage of topics depends, to a large extent, on the whims of its contributors, including you. Not every individual who meets our eligibility criteria has an article. If members of the Ditch family are notable, you can add articles about them yourself (though these days you need to get an account to start an article). Be aware that for a topic to be covered on Wikipedia, it has to be, to some level, notable, and the information in the articles verifiable from external sources (books, newspaper articles, and so on). See WP:BIO for some guidance on who is and isn't an appropriate topic for a Wikipedia article. Wikipedia is not a geneological database. --Robert Merkel 23:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Postmodernism and Logic

Can anyone tell me any people who have written about how logic fits into postmodernism. In particular, perhaps, can any of the four primary rules of logic (Contradictions, excluded middle, identity and inference) be considered as universal. --Kiltman67 18:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by postmodernism? I can't see how logic fits into architecture, although I can see how it may figure in literature or music.

Re universality, Buddhism explicitly contradicts the excluded middle - 'neither it is, nor it is not' is the normal meaning of the 'Middle Way' between extremes, although it's often interpreted as 'moderation in all things', which it also means (eg the Buddha rejecting asceticism prior to his Enlightenment, but didn't indulge his desires either). Rentwa 00:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I meant postmodernism in a philosophical sense. Thanks for telling me about the excluded middle, I wasn't aware that Buddhists would in effect refute the claim. I'm interested in the other three which would appear more difficult to refute and anybody who's written more widely on how logic fits into postmodern thought. --Kiltman67 18:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The basis of our occidental philosophy is taken down by discoveries in physics such as quantic laws, including contradiction (see Schrodinger's cat). All we can say is that philosophy has to evolve ; did a current, named "postmodernism", talk about that, I do not know. -- DLL ^{.. T} 19:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Better an occidental philosophy than an accidental one. JackofOz 22:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

You sure are negative to those who write in, we ask for help not criticism.

basics of Iraqi insurgency, especially suicide bombings

Hello,

it seems some users dislike my use of "dummies" so I use "basics":)

More seriously : I've been reading through Wikipedia articles but I'm still in doubt. As I understand it the Iraqi insurgency is complicated : there are Sunni milita, supporters of Hussein, Shia militia, Al Qaeda,....

But who are these men (or women) who target civilians(possibly by suicide bombing)? And who do they target? I've heard stories of men driving a car full of explosives right into a group of playing young boys. Are the acts by Sunnis against Shia muslims or vice versa, or does it really happen that fundamentalists are willing to target civilians in their OWN group (and if so, why?)

Thanks.Evilbu 20:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The Al Qaeda in Iraq group may very well be willing to target ANY Iraqi civilians, just as long as it makes the US look bad because "all those deaths of civilians occurred while it was under US occupation". They don't care what happens to Iraqis, and would be quite happy if a bloody civil war killed every last Iraqi. Now for the goals of the other insurgency groups:

• Sunnis: Gain control of Iraq, as under Saddam, and establish another military dictatorship. If that means killing every other Iraqi, that's fine.

• Secular Shiites: Gain control of Iraq, using the current government structure. If that means killing every other Iraqi, that's fine.

• Fundamentalist Shiites: Gain control of Iraq, and establish an Iran style theocracy. If that means killing every other Iraqi, that's fine.

• Kurds: Achieve independence. If that means killing every other Iraqi, that's fine.

StuRat 22:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I recall news reports of, for instance, a tennis coach getting shot and killed by fundamentalists because he was wearing shorts. Speaking broadly, the Kurds have fairly relaxed customs of religious observance, so the line may blur between ethnic fighting and religious killings. There is also the chance that certain suicide bombers specifically target one individual who collaborates with the occupation government and the deaths of other nearby civilians amount to (from the bomber's perspective) collateral damage. Durova 22:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I could be wrong but the story of the "madman suicide bomber" running his car bomb into a group of children didn't seem to target any specific person. StuRat, thanks for your overview, but where are the former Baathists in there?Evilbu 23:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The Ba'athists are Sunni Muslims - 'want to regain their control' category --Mnemeson 23:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and they don't particularly seem to have the goal of putting Saddam back as the leader. I suspect that each faction has their own leader who they want to be the new dictator of Iraq. StuRat 02:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Yay! So as soon as the civil war's over, the... err... civil war can begin. Sometimes, I think the only way Miss World will be able to get world peace is if she's a nuclear physicist, and persuades the sun to swallow us up ahead of schedule... --Mnemeson 02:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

dictionary-thesaurus

How do I access the dictionary and thesaurus?

                              Fred DiDomenico

Remove from your shelf. Open to the letter that begins the word you desire. If you don't have one on your shelf, are you looking for dictionary.com ? --Mnemeson 23:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps the Wiktionary? --Maxamegalon2000 01:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest OneLook.com for a dictionary and Merriam-Webster for a thesaurus (although they have a dictionary, too). StuRat 01:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Is he talking about MS Word by any chance?--Light current 03:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Could be. In which case that annoying Clippy could be good for something. RTFM. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)