Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 December 7

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December 7

British Medical titles

A British general practitioner is called Doctor, despite not necessarily having a Doctorate (MB,Ch.B). A British specialist such as a Geriatrician or Anaestheologist is also called Doctor. But a Consultant Surgeon is called Mister. I recognise that Mister Surgeon is a highly qualified Doctor and that his title derives from the Barber Surgeons of the 18th century - but what does a female Surgeon call herslf these days? Is it Doctor - or Mrs. - or Miss - or Mister - or Ms (whatever that means)or what? And as an aside, how do American doctors of whatever seniority or specialism entitle themselves? Thanks. 92.30.2.54 (talk) 00:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

As for American Doctors, I think, oddly enough, they call themselves "Dr.". I don't know if the same situation comes up, with people practicing medicine without a doctorate, in the US. StuRat (talk) 00:25, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

If an American medical "practitioner" calls him/herself "doctor" without a doctoral degree, we call that "fraud". --Nricardo (talk) 01:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

It appears to be impossible to be a qualified medical practitioner without a doctoral degree in the US, whereas the comparable British qualification is two bachelor's degrees but carries the honorary title of "Doctor". Is that correct? Marnanel (talk) 03:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

That's not entirely true. The U.S. has two positions, known as Physician assistant and Nurse practitioner which allow someone to practice medicine in a limited fashion without being a doctor. The role of the Nurse Practitioner will change such that, by 2015 all new Nurse Practitioners will require a Doctorate to practice; but existing Nurse Practitioners will be "grandfathered in". --Jayron32 05:36, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

That's terrible. From my (admittedly prejudiced) perspective, that's just another way for the medical profession to restrict competition and run up the bill. About 95% of medicine is completely routine and can very well be done by skilled workers on the order of a really good auto mechanic; there's no excuse to restrict it to people with four years of grad school plus a three-year residency. --Trovatore (talk) 02:32, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

From our article Doctor (title)#Healthcare: "also note that British surgeons - a designation reserved for those who have obtained membership of the Royal College of Surgeons - are addressed as Mr, Mrs or Miss rather than Dr." So Mrs or Miss. I'd guess Ms is also common. --203.202.43.53 (talk) 02:40, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

And later in the same article: "As a homage to their predecessors, the barber surgeons, they prefer to be addressed as Mr, Mrs, Ms or Miss, even if they do hold a medical degree." --203.202.43.54 (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Plenty of surgeons using the title Ms here, for example. Marnanel (talk) 02:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

That should really say: "... even though they hold a medical degree". To be a surgeon, holding a medical degree is not an optional extra. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:16, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

So in the US, any doctor must have a PhD in medicine? 92.15.11.224 (talk) 12:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Not a PhD ("Doctor of Philosophy"), but an MD ("Doctor of Medicine" degree) or DO ("Doctor of Osteopathy" degree). --- Medical geneticist (talk) 13:43, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The Doctor Of Medicine article says "In Britain, Ireland, and many Commonwealth nations, the qualifying medical degree is instead the Bachelor of Science in Medicine, Bachelor of Medicine.....and is considered equivalent to the M.D. degree in the U.S. system." Is that correct? 92.15.11.224 (talk) 16:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

No, because a BS is a Bachelor of Surgery degree, not a Bachelor of Science degree. I suspect someone was confused by the American habit of writing BS for Bachelor of Science. Marnanel (talk) 23:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Bachelor of Surgery redirects to an article that gives quite a few abbreviations for the degree, among which the abbreviation "BS" is not to be found. I would say that the Americans are right here (in the sense that BS is one correct abbreviation, though not the only one, for "Bachelor of Science", but is not a correct abbreviation for "Bachelor of Surgery"). --Trovatore (talk) 02:07, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

You would say wrongly. A medical qualification in the UK is (usually) "MB BS", two bachelor's degrees. The BS is a Bachelor of Surgery degree[1], not a Bachelor of Science degree, and it is a correct abbreviation; the fact that our page doesn't mention it is a bad reflection on the page. In the UK, Bachelor of Science degrees are BSc, not BS. What the Americans call things is irrelevant. Marnanel (talk) 03:10, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

This is a really irritating attitude on the part of many Brits on Wikipedia. Y'all have to get used to the fact that you don't own the language anymore. What Americans call things is every bit as relevant as what Brits call them. --Trovatore (talk) 03:50, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

It's irritating for English-speakers in the rest of the world when the Americans assume that they deserve half the pie when they are just one country amongst dozens that speak English. What Americans tend to call "British English" usage is quite often rest-of-the-world usage. It seems to me more reasonable to regard the general English usage as the norm and the American usage as the exception. This includes the peculiar habit of calling what are plainly bachelors' degrees, such as those in law and medicine, "doctor" degrees. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:40, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

American English is the dialect of an absolute majority of English-as-a-first-language speakers, so no, it is not reasonable to regard British English as the norm and American English as the exception. On the other issue, I do agree that the MD is not on the same academic level as the PhD, but it's certainly more than a Bachelor's. --Trovatore (talk) 19:20, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Its in a minority of English language speakers - the pie chart is missing in the English Language article. Although India is omitted in the first-language list, it says in the article "Crystal claims that, combining native and non-native speakers, India now has more people who speak or understand English than any other country in the world." http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2004/nov/19/tefl 92.24.190.135 (talk) 22:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

How to weight non-native speakers is tricky. How well do these people speak or understand English? How much do they use it on a daily basis?

But we don't really need to figure that out, exactly. What's clear is that the dialect comprising more than 50% (actually I think more than 60%) of first-language speakers cannot be considered an "exception". --Trovatore (talk) 03:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Good grief. You say that the Brits are not using a correct abbreviation for "Bachelor of Surgery" because the Americans use the same abbreviation to mean something else. I point out that what Americans do is irrelevant to the question, because it's about British usage and not American usage. And than you tell me we don't own the language any more. Of course we don't own the language. Of course we don't get to dictate American usage. Neither do they get to dictate ours. Marnanel (talk) 16:56, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

The MD in the US seems more of a practical degree showing they have mastered useful skills (they learned a variety of sciences in years of hard study following the undergraduate degree, but had lots of practicum) and less of a theoretical or scientific or scholarly degree (graduate study followed by qualifying exams, then original research, leading to an accepted doctoral thesis). I have not heard US doctors refer to their earning a "doctorate" as a scientist, historian, mathematician or other scholar would. Similarly US lawyers earn a Juris Doctor degree following three years of law school after the undergrad degree, but do not generally refer to each other as "doctor" nor do they generally call their degree a "doctorate." They similarly generally do not have to do an original research project leading to a published dissertation. The MD is Britain seems more of a scholarly degree and less of a professional degree. Edison (talk) 18:13, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

So a medical bachelor's degree in the UK is equivalent to a medical doctorate in the US, and vice versa? 92.24.176.134 (talk) 19:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Potentially freezing beagles

Hello I know this forum is not for medical advice but I wonder if you could give me pointers to credible information on this topic as I can't tell the good from the bad.

I live in Dublin, Ireland, and we have been having unprecedentedly cold weather and snowfall for the last week. My neighbour has two young beagles who he keeps outside the house at all times. They are usually very lively and territorial but have not come out of their (barely sheltered) beds for the last week and are sleeping in the same bed which is unusual. When they do come out they are shivering the whole time.

I want to know how bad the weather would need to be for the dogs to be at risk of cold-related death such as from hypothermia. I have two young daughters who are getting very worried and I don't really know what to tell them. I thank you for any help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.237.118 (talk) 00:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I found this link by googling dog hypothermia, but I think you would want to call up a veterinarian for more certain advice than you're likely to get on the Internet. Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:31, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Try these folks: http://www.ispca.ie/ --Nricardo (talk) 01:39, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

A beagle's coat is surprisingly good at keeping the rain out, but not so good with the cold. They are traditionally pack dogs who would very commonly share a bed, so in that sense they are showing normal behaviour. HiLo48 (talk) 01:43, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

There might be some good reason why they aren't allowed inside, like somebody being allergic to them, so perhaps improving their conditions outside might be in order. If they have a doghouse, an extension cord with a bare, incandescent light bulb at the end, hanging on a hook from the roof, can warm it up considerably. It can't be a CFL, though, as they don't work well in the cold and don't produce enough heat. If they don't have a doghouse, build them one, with a flap of thick fabric over the doorway to keep the heat in. You might suggest this to your neighbor. If they object to the cost, you could offer to pay for the doghouse and let them plug the extension cord in at your house. If they still won't do anything, you can always call the (Irish equivalent of the) RSPCA, but they will, of course, know it was you. StuRat (talk) 04:34, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

In the UK this would definitely something that ought to be reported to the RSPCA, so I think the OP should contact the equivalent organisation (Blue Cross?), or the local authority. At least an inspector may visit the neighbour. The advice will be, I think, that dogs should not be kept outdoors. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:01, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Two of you now have completely missed the link that User:Nricardo posted. Dismas|^(talk) 16:09, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I think me referring to it as the "(Irish equivalent of the) RSPCA" is essentially correct, but, yes, his link provides the correct name. I tend to ignore links, unless the person posting them says exactly where to look in the article to get the answer. This is because so many people post links to huge articles which don't actually answer the Q, and reading through those would be a waste of my time. StuRat (talk) 17:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

That site also has a "Winter Animal Care" section which says: "The ISPCA recommends that pets be brought indoors if possible during extremely cold periods. They must have somewhere dry and draught free to escape from the elements. Plenty of warm dry bedding should also be provided." As it is just a recommendation, not sure there's much that can be done about a neighbor's decision not to follow that recommendation. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 19:40, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Failing anything better, why not buy them or knit them the sort of jackets that dogs wear. 92.29.113.166 (talk) 22:53, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Canadian name for Canadian bacon

What do Canadians call Canadian bacon? --70.134.49.69 (talk) 01:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I call it back bacon. Or an amusing film by Michael Moore. Aaronite (talk) 01:07, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

And, in my experience, only on pizza at US pizza chains. I like my bacon in strips, like everyone else I know. I suppose it's like French Fries, where the name doesn't really have any real meaning. Aaronite (talk) 01:08, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I call it back bacon too, or peameal bacon, although those are slightly different I suppose. My family eats it fairly regularly. Not as much as "regular" bacon, but it makes a good meal (breakfast, lunch, or dinner). There is "Belfast ham" too, although that is also slightly different. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:59, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Our back bacon article says: "it ... is sometimes sold in the US as Irish bacon or Canadian bacon, owing to the popularity of back bacon in those countries." WikiDao ☯ (talk) 03:07, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The Canadian comedians who played Bob and Doug MacKenzie created a satirical version of 12 Days of Christmas in which various Canada-related items were mentioned, including tuques and back bacon. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:51, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Only on pizza? You've never had Eggs Benedict? Corvus cornix_talk 21:31, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

From the responses here it seems it is unanimously used for back bacon, but the disambiguation page claims back bacon can also mean cured ham. Is that an accurate claim? --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:37, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, although I have frequently heard of Canadian bacon, not least from the movie, I have never seen it. It was shown in a Simpsons episode, but there it looked more like slices of saveloy, so I am a bit surprised to learn that it actually just means back bacon. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:50, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I've heard peameal bacon more often than back bacon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.193.96.10 (talk) 16:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

This is somewhat off topic, but in Ireland we call them rashers or back rashers. We call the stuff Americans call 'bacon', streaky rashers. 109.125.15.198 (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Who is Naomi Judd's plastic surgeon?

Who is Naomi Judd's plastic surgeon and what proceedures has she had on her face neck?

How can I locate Naomi Judd's plastic surgeon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.84.60.245 (talk) 02:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

This sort of information is likely to be covered my medical confidentiality. Unless she discloses it herself, it is unlikely to become public knowledge. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Relationship To Patient

Is there a "proper" word or phrase to put in 'relationship to patient:' on a form when immediately above it is a 'patient name' and signature field where I am the patient? It takes on the appearance of a worryingly existential question in my mind. I'm also troubled by the rather vague and leading question, "Are you troubled by bad breath?", but will figure that one out on my own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.87.224 (talk) 03:34, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd be tempted to put "it's me!" in. Are you sure this isn't one of these forms where you only answer some questions, depending on earlier answers? Perhaps you've missed an instruction to "go to question N if you are filling in this form for yourself".

(The correct answer to "Are you troubled by bad breath?" is probably "Mine, or yours?".) AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Or, "I have horrid breath, but I'm not troubled by it. On the contrary, it's quite useful when people knock on my door, hand me tracts with a bloody Jesus on the cross, and want to come inside and talk." :-) StuRat (talk) 04:17, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I never know the direction they want when they ask about the relationship. If I am his son, do they want "son" or "father" ? One way around this would be as follows:

CHECK ONE:

The patient is your  [] Grandparent  [] Parent  [] Sibling  [] Child  [] Grandchild
                     [] Other: ____________________________________________________

StuRat (talk) 04:24, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

You can indicate the relationship with a sentence. If you are the father, you say "I am the patient's father" or "He is my son." --Jayron32 04:59, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

They typically prevent that by only providing space for a single word. StuRat (talk) 05:02, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

In that case, the appendage of the short word "My" resolves ambiguity. "My son" or "My father" is not markedly longer than "son" or "father" such that you wouldn't be able to fit it on the line; and it resolves your problem. --Jayron32 05:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the "direction," here's an example. Say that Frank is Steve's father. Then Frank's relation to Steve is "father" and Steve's relation to Frank is "son". Cheers. Haus^Talk 13:44, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but the form doesn't usually say "Frank's relationship with Steve ?" ... it just says "Relationship ?". StuRat (talk) 04:34, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

"Same" or "Self" or just leaving it "______" would all seem acceptable. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 05:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, on reflection I think "selfsame" will actually work best for me. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.87.224 (talk) 05:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Me, Myself, and I would work but you may be billed three times. Dismas|^(talk) 13:07, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

As pertaining to the question "Relationship to patient" if YOU are the patient, leave it blank or write "Self" if the patient is your boyfriend/girlfriend then you can put either, "boyfriend/girlfriend" or "Significant Other", you=son patient=father put "Son", etc., etc., etc., as pertaining to the "Are you troubled by bad breath?" question, the question is asking if you have bad breath or in the case of the patient being someone else (As described above) it's their breath. Not to be rude, but this is called, "Common Knowledge" as everyone knows or IS TO ASSUME the questions are about themselves and no one else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.104.24 (talk) 12:21, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Statutory Compliance

Is there any sites giving free advise on statutory compliance which is applicable to India only.

Regards,

Raijohn --RAIJOHN (talk) 12:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Statutory compliance to what, exactly? Dismas|^(talk) 13:05, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

on Income tax ,Service Tax ,central excises,EPF,ESI,VAT --RAIJOHN (talk) 13:00, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Benchmarking School Systems

I would like to benchmark k-12 public school systems in the nation that graduate more than 95% of their students. Will you provide the names and demographics of such school systems and a process I can use for benchmarking. The benchmarking will focus on: 1. Career, Technical and Agricultural Courses 2. Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics Courses 3. Advisement Programs 4. Counseling Programs 5. Mentoring Programs 6. Student Information System Data 7. Programs and Interventions for Students who Are At-Risk of Dropping Out of School 8. Use of Instructional Time and Physical Space to Maximize Learning 9. Amount of Instructional Time for Struggling Students 10. On-line Learning Opportunities

Thank you Lynne125 (talk) 16:56, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Which nation? And what makes you believe that any reliable process for benchmarking exists? HiLo48 (talk) 17:02, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

K-12_schools#Secondary_education suggests that the OP is referring to either the US, Canada or Australia. Blakk and ekka 17:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

If it's Australia there's excellent useful statistics online at this site, but indexed on a school-by-school rather than national basis. Blakk and ekka 17:40, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

If it's Australia, it must be said that there are many who don't regard that My School website as being of any more use than giving politicians the chance to further fool the easily fooled. That article I've linked to explains some of the concerns. That you choose to describe it as "excellent" is quite interesting. HiLo48 (talk) 22:05, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there's any significant concern with the statistics on MySchool itself, which are derived from relatively rigorous NAPLAN data. The controversy around the site relates to the use people make of the statistics and the way that they're presented, given issues of comparability, statistics-driven-education, curriculum, and causation. Many have quite legitimate objections to these statistics being used to make "league tables". See our article on the site.- DustFormsWords (talk) 08:29, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

NAPLAN rigorous? Ha ha ha ha ha. Having supervised such tests in schools, I simply must disagree. HiLo48 (talk) 20:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not Australian, so I've adjusted the description. Blakk and ekka 10:17, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Lumosity.com

Is there a way to delete your account on Lumisoty.com? I want to do it to avoid the subscription. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.41.71 (talk) 17:35, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Did you try their help page? I think your answer is on this one. Dismas|^(talk) 02:14, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Even out skin or fair skin

Sometimes we read information on cosmetics that says, it will even out your skin or make your skin fairer. What is the differences between evened out skin and fair skin?--180.234.54.157 (talk) 22:04, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Evened-out skin would be skin that is all the same tone (or color). Fairer skin is lighter skin. These are different concepts. For example, you could be very light-skinned, but your skin could be blotchy. You could also have skin that was a uniform dark color. So products that say they even out your skin just help hide the blotches, without perceptibly changing its color, while products that make your skin fairer make it lighter in color, but may not affect the overall blotchiness. --Jayron32 00:15, 8 December 2010 (UTC)