Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Vietnam/Archive 2

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Historical subdivisions

Hello all. I'm very excited to see a Vietnamese WikiProject finally assembled. As a Japan scholar, Southeast Asia has always interested me but has always been on the side.. What I guess I'm trying to say is I'm no expert, but I'm happy to be here.

One set of articles which I think could use some serious help from experts are those describing historical subdivisions of Vietnam. I'm afraid I am far from familiar enough with Vietnam's history overall to be able to tackle this alone, so I hope that others can jump in. Some terms which I think need better, clearer, explanations, along with some care taken to accurately represent the overlaps in terminology:

• Annam - the disambig page looks great, though Annam (Chinese Province) needs expansion, and Annam (French colony) needs some serious cleanup.
• Cochinchina/Quinam/Quang Nam/Dang Trong -- The confusion between these needs to be cleared and explained. Quang Nam currently only describes the modern-day province, not the historical central-southern section of the country controlled by the Nguyen lords in the 16th-17th centuries. Perhaps the best answer is to create an article at Dang Trong linked to in Quang Nam and Cochinchina and redirected from Quinam.
• Tonkin/Dang Ngoai -- Most sources I've seen refer to the northern area controlled by the Trinh as "Tonkin" ... Either this article needs expansion, or the Dang Ngoai article should be created to parallel the Dang Trong one, if we make that one.

Confusing, yes. But I'm hoping that some movement can be made on this issue. Thoughts, suggestions? Thanks. LordAmeth 11:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Han Tu characters and alternate names for the country.

I understand that Chinese characters are no longer used in Vietnam, but as the language is derived from them, I find them quite useful for understanding the meaning and origin of terms. To seek the origin of the word Annam not purely from its Western sound (which means nothing) but from its Chinese origins (安南 - "the peaceful south", an exonym used by the Chinese to refer to the tributary state to their south) reveals something interesting and useful, I feel. After some searching, I have finally satisfied my curiosity as to the character used for Viet - 越. I understand the meaning behind Vietnam (越南) and Dai Viet (大越), but I have just come across a reference to Dai Nam (大南). Is this simply a synonym, or does it refer to something else? LordAmeth 17:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

During the Nguyen Dynasty, Gia Long asked the Qing Dynasty to change the Quốc hiệu (囯号) to Nam Viet, but was denied and changed to Viet Nam. In 1820, Minh Mang asked to change it to Dai Nam, but was not accepted; however, as the Qing grew increasingly weaker, the Nguyen Dynasty unilaterally used the name since 1839. It was used officially until 1945. Dai Nam means a large Southern nation. DHN 19:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Vietnamese name

I feel glad that a WikiProject for Vietnam has been established after all. There're a lot of things to do. However, I think that we should create a standardize form for Vietnam-related articles first. I have problem using the diacritic for Vietnamese names. For example, User:Sesel renamed Huynh Phu So to Huỳnh Phú Sổ [1] and recently User:Blnguyen has reverted the move [2]. User:DMG413 performed the similar action as Sesel [3] in article Xuân Diệu. I myself created article Nguyễn Nhật Ánh with diacritic. There's a requested move for Thích Quảng Ðức and the result is "keep". IMO I support the diacritic pattern. We need a synchronization in the naming system. AW 09:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, not everyone's keyboard supports the diacritical marks. I have seen a standard somewhere, that says for the English language Wikipedia, the marks should not be used. I will keep looking. Chris 09:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

We have a free software Unikey for solving this. In fact, this problem seems to be widely noticed that there's a impending guideline on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Vietnamese). AW 10:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I say, if you know the diacritics, and you have a vietnamese typing program, then use the diacritics. But create a redirect without the diacritics. The trend is definately towards more respect for other languages' names. Standards that call for some languages like Spanish to be written with diacritics and other languages to be written without them, reflect a US-centric view of the world and should not be used in Wikipedia. If you can't be bothered to type the diacritics yourself then wait for someone else to fix it later. Even if diacritics are not used in the title, they should always be used in the article body if possible. Diacritics may seem silly to English speakers who don't speak the language, but they do mean the difference between Y and D for example, so they are important. I've read a lot of history books which left out the diacritics, and it is very annoying knowing these people's names but not being able to pronounce them because I don't know the diacritics. It was a pleasant change when I read Trần Mỹ-Vân's history book with diacritics on all the Vietnamese and French names (but not the Japanese or Chinese ones :-( ). If the spelling is identical to the English name, including spaces, then use diacritics. If the English spelling removes the spaces though, then maybe you should not use the diacritics (eg. Hanoi). Carl Kenner 20:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I just downloaded WinVNKey, which works great (using Telex mode, which allows you to type a vowel, then an accent or dot or whatever, and it adds the diacritic immediately to the vowel, also in combination). It works better than Unikey for mẹ Badagnani 08:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

You're funny Carl. It's not just a US-centric imposition, but an English-centric one. Last I check the website for the Australian embassy in Vietnam, they omit diacritics! :-) Yellowtailshark (talk) 16:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Annam (French colony)

I am at a loss to know what to do with the old Encyclopedia Britannica stuff in the above article. Should it stay where it is? Could some or all of it go into History of Vietnam? Or should it just be junked? Any suggestions welcomed, or just take bold action. Itsmejudith 20:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to incorporate it as best as you can. I wouldn't trash it, nor would I leave it alone. I've been thinking of doing something with this myself, but I really don't know when I'd get around to it - thank you much for noticing the problem, and please do feel free to be bold and go and fix it. Thanks!! LordAmeth 01:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

To answer User:Badagnani's question, raised as a note in the above article, the Vietnamese name for the area is not Annam because the French division of the country into Tonkin, Annam and Cochinchina is widely regarded as arbitrary and unjustified. And before the colonial period Annam was one of various Sino-Vietnamese names for Vietnam as a whole. Nowadays if people want to refer to the areas that were covered by the former colonies, they use the neutral terms Bac Ky or Bac Bo (northern region), Trung Ky or Trung Bo (central region) and Nam Ky or Nam Bo (southern region) - sorry I don't have the diacritics to hand. In view of this, I also think it is not correct to add the Han Tu version of Annam to this article, although it should definitely be in the article Annam (Chinese province). The Annam disambiguation page explains it but if it is still confusing - the 19th century French are to blame, not us! Itsmejudith 09:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this; I would say that if the article is under Annam it's referring to the French colony. Chinese characters were still used by educated Vietnamese during the time "Annam" was used for this division of French Indochina. It's the question of why there's a different Vietnamese name. If it was a French colony why would it have a completely different Vietnamese name, Trung Kỳ (Hán Tự: 中圻)? If it's a different Vietnamese name, I'd say it's not referring to the same entity but instead a roughly matching geographical region. Badagnani 09:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

If we could get a translation of this text, maybe it would explain more about it:

• Trong lịch sử cận đại, "Annam" được sử dụng trong tiếng Pháp để chỉ phần đất Miền Trung Việt Nam (hay Trung Kỳ) do triều đình Huế của nhà Nguyễn cai trị dưới sự bảo hộ của Pháp. Do thời kỳ Pháp thuộc bị coi là một giai đoạn ô nhục của dân tộc, nên người dân Việt Nam thường hiểu từ "Annam" theo một nghĩa tiêu cực, mang hàm ý miệt thị dân tộc và vì vậy không thích sử dụng nó. Badagnani 10:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

  Translation: "In modern history, "Annam" was used in French to refer to central Vietnam, the area under the administration of the Nguyen Dynasty under French protectorate. Because the period of French domination is considered a period of national shame, Vietnamese people usually consider the term "Annam" derogatory, used pejoratively towards the Vietnamese people, and do not use it. DHN 15:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I've made a small change at Annam (French colony). One more question: was "Trung Kỳ" used by Vietnamese as the Vietnamese equivalent name referring to the same colony as Annam, or was the name applied after the French were defeated? I'm guessing it's the latter. (Or was the term used during the colonial period as well, to spite the French?) If so, that should be made clear in the article. Badagnani 19:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it would help to determine the usage of "Trung Kỳ" to see what http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trung_K%E1%BB%B3 says. Badagnani 20:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It dates it from 1834. And yes I think it was used by anti-colonial writers (as "Vietnam" was), but we would need a reference. Itsmejudith 20:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

"Nam Kỳ", "Bắc Kỳ", and "Trung Kỳ" had been in use administratively before French colonialism. In 1834, Minh Mang established the three regions. Nam Ky, divided into 6 provinces, is known collectively as "Nam Kỳ Lục tỉnh" (6 Southern region provinces). They were the same 6 provinces that were ceded to France and later becoming Cochin China. After 1945, they're called "Nam Bộ", "Bắc Bộ", and "Trung Bộ", respectively. DHN 21:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

What's a top importance article?

Would it be useful to agree some basic guidelines here for assessing articles? My assumption is that top importance is reserved for a very small number of articles: Vietnam, History of Vietnam, Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam War, perhaps just a few more. Does that mesh with what others are thinking? Then high importance would be all the provinces, other cities, the archdioceses, major hospitals and universities, the historical dynasties, historical figures such as Ho Chi Minh, Ngo Dinh Diem and Vo Nguyen Giap, major tourist resorts, geographical features such as Ha Long Bay, the former French colonies such as Cochinchina. I don't have particularly strong views about the classification but if we are going to make inroads into the assessment then some consistency might be useful. Thanks. Itsmejudith 19:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I personally like the way it's described in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Assessment#Importance scale. I'm not sure if that helps any, of course, but it's the best guideline I've seen to date. John Carter 19:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it does look good. Maybe we could pinch the table layout and find Vietnam-related articles for the examples. Their top class category seems a bit wider than the one I was thinking of in my last post - but it's the consensus and consistency that matters of course. Itsmejudith 20:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Ngo Dinh Diem and Vo Nguyen Giap might be recentism. I would think that in the long run, Trung sisters, Nguyen lords, Trinh lords, Le Loi, Gia Long or Quang Trung had a greater impact. I guess Diem got under the skin of a few more people who were they to record the facts... I can't see how a hospital could be any more than low, unless it was architecturally important. But anyway...Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Belated thanks to people for their comments above. I am going to start doing some more assessments, since the majority of our articles are still unassessed. I've been assessing all province articles as high importance and will continue unless there is any disagreement. Following Blnguyen's comment, I will categorise all hospital articles as low importance unless it is clear that there is something very special about that hospital. I also take the point about recentism, but surely anyone who has had supreme power in the whole country or a major share of it at any period is a figure of high importance? Itsmejudith 23:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Han Tu

Copied from project page

Comment - I've put in Hán Tự for the ones I could figure out. I think it would be less obtrusive to put them in the box as they're not generally used in the modern day (though they're useful for historical and etymological purposes. Can someone figure out how to do that? If we could add a "literal meaning" section in the box as well that would be just great; most of the province names do have Sino-Vietnamese literal meanings though I think at least a few of the southern provinces are probably transliterations of Khmer or Cham toponyms. Badagnani 06:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

If they're shown at all, they must be made absolutely clear that they are no longer used. DHN 07:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I think it's similar to the condition of the Korean Sino-Korean hanja; though many younger Koreans eschew any use of those characters of Chinese origin, they do contribute immeasurably to an understanding of the words (and the names of most Koreans living today) they were formerly used to write. I do support getting the Han Tu out of the lead paragraphs and into the infobox or an etymology section (for the province articles, if we went with the latter we could use some boilerplate text about the Sino-Vietnamese origin of many/most of the province names). Badagnani 07:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The situation in Vietnamese is much more extreme than in Korean. It is not taught at all in schools. Currently, there is absolutely no printed media that uses Han tu, either in personal names, place names, or dictionaries. Most people, young and old, do not know any Chinese character. DHN 07:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. Anyway, I'm fascinated by the etymologies of at least the major place names, and regardless of the decision the Vietnamese educational system has taken over the past 100 years (though I do believe some university students study the old characters, since someone needs to staff the national institute that preserves all of the nation's ancient literature written in this system) that our encyclopedia could be a good source of reference for these etymologies in an Internet where this information is extremely hard to find. Regarding young and old, I do know that my teacher knows the characters to his name and knows many others as well; I think he learned them during the 1950s and 1960s as a Buddhist monk in Vinh Long. Yes, I guess he's the exception, so our encyclopedia could actually help Vietnamese people learn more about this, if they want to. Badagnani 07:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There's a particularly poignant poem written during the 1930s and later turned into a song that's sung during Tet about a ông đồ già (translation). An ông đồ is sort of like a scribe; during Tet, people would come to him and pay him to write down "parallel lines" of Chinese characters so that they could bring home to display in their homes. As the song goes, every year fewer and fewer people would use his service, and he sits alone in the middle of the marketplace until one year there's no ông đồ anymore. Buddhists are one of the few remaining groups of scholars who still study Chinese characters. I can recognize my name in Han tu (since I know what my name means), but my parents, who named me, wouldn't. I can recognize about 20 other characters, but that doesn't make me some sort of "Han tu scholar"...I just happen to pick them up from Wikipedia. DHN 08:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that is heavy. I've got to learn more about that song. Regarding names, I was wondering whether it was possible to figure out the meanings of people's names, but I'd guess if one's parents donŖ't know the characters maybe in some cases it's impossible? In Chinese, there are sometimes several different characters for "peace," "happiness," or whatever. Badagnani 08:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's a slideshow of the song being sung with pictures of modern-day ông đồ: [4]. DHN (talk) 19:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if the characters for ông đồ are 翁徒. 24.93.170.200 (talk) 03:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. I definitely agree with Badagnani - the etymologies of placenames, personal names, and other words and terms is quite fascinating, and an understanding of the Chinese characters involved offers huge insights into these meanings and origins. I understand the assertion that these are not used in modern language at all, and I do not disagree with the argument that they should, for that reason, not be present in the leading sentence. Still, for historical topics, i.e. anything that concerns a time when Han Tu were used, I think it would be extremely interesting and useful, if not exactly necessary, to include this information. LordAmeth 10:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Finding out their etymologies is necessary for people using Chinese language. For example, Hà Nội means river interior, and we can trace that Hà (means river) is 河 in Chinese, but not 何/荷. Therefore, 河內 is the only correct translation of Hà Nội. Nevertheless, many placenames with the name Long (e.g. Vĩnh Long or Long An) are translated in Chinese as 隆 (which means prosperity) currently, but I doubted that many of them should be 龍 (dragon). --✉ Hello World! 17:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you have access to a library that has a book giving the original Han Tu for the province names? That would solve this problem. For Mekong Delta, I'm sure it's "Nine Dragons" (九龍). Badagnani 17:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, no. It would be great if you can provide them (at least the name of all provinces first). Interestingly, as far as I know, at least 17 places are called 九龍 in China, so there is of little chance that Cửu Long Delta would use 隆.--✉ Hello World! 17:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Yup, Kowloon is etymology the same as the Vietnamese name of the Mekong. DHN 19:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I was asking you because I thought you're in Vietnam and would have more access to these kinds of reference books. Badagnani 17:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I am from Hong Kong, a guy that currently get messed up by those names. In Chinese Wikipedia we don't use Quốc Ngữ as article names, so finding out correct Chinese names is the most important thing before an article can be built. --✉ Hello World! 17:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, we'll do it. I think, though, that in some cases (especially for the province and place names in the far south), that the names aren't Viet, but come from the languages of minority groups (former majorities like Khmers and Chams). So the Viet Han Tu used in the 19th century may differ from the current transliteration used by the PRC, TW, or HK. My teacher is from Vinh Long, so I'm asking him about that right now. You may very well be right that it's not "dragon." Badagnani 17:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Just name a few - Bình Long, Càng Long, Hạ Long, Long An, Long Biên, Long Điền, Long Hồ, Long Khánh, Long Mỹ, Long Phú, Long Thành, Long Xuyên, Minh Long, Phước Long (Bạc Liêu), Phước Long (Bình Phước), Vĩnh Long. Many of them uses 隆 in Chinese articles nowadays (e.g. Vĩnh Long = 永隆), but some of them uses 龍 (e.g. Hạ Long = 下龍). For the names from Khmers and Chams, phonetic translations are okay.--✉ Hello World! 18:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Urgently needed to find the etymology of Long Thành -- I don't know how to name this new airport. Thành can correspond to 成 (success) or 城 (city). The name Long Thành may get 4 plausible translations -- but 3 are wrong. --✉ Hello World! 18:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

This tool is a good one for finding Han Tu, but it doesn't know the exact one for the place names. It just gives all the possible characters a given syllable could be. Badagnani 17:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

See new page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Vietnam/Han tu requests. Badagnani 18:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Long Thành is the name of the town nearby, so I'm inclined to go with 城. Long is probably prosperity or dragon. DHN 19:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

My teacher, who is from Vinh Long, thinks it means "ETERNAL PROSPERITY" or "EVERLASTING PROSPERITY." But he said that the original Han characters have been wiped out from all government records. Badagnani 22:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

What he probably means is that Chinese characters for place name are no longer recorded in government records, as is all written Vietnamese for the past 50 years. I don't think there's any concerted effort to eliminate Chinese written records. DHN 23:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah ha, the first sentence of Vinh Long and Vinh Long Province need to be changed then. -✉ Hello World! 09:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes...I think I'm the one who originally added that, so sorry about that... I'm in touch with the Nom Foundation and they are working on my request for the original characters used for all the "Long" place names. Badagnani 17:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The Search for Lost Maps

This might be useful. 19th Unified Dai Nam Map from the National History Book of the Nguyen Dynasty. Source Yellowtailshark (talk) 07:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

How wonderful! Can we use Photoshop to rotate and upload it? Badagnani (talk) 07:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:19th-Unified-Dai-Nam-Map.png Yellowtailshark (talk) 16:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Article naming policy

There needs to be a consistent naming policy for article names of Vietnamese place-names and people. Currently some names are written without diacritics, while others have them. While I have no strong feelings toward one or another, we still need to come to a consensus about which format to use. DHN 00:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. This is listed as Task 3 on the main page, but nobody has commented yet. I think User:Vardion has some thoughts about this, first expressed back in 2005, which have to do with commonly used English (i.e. non-diacritic) spellings for some of the provinces, city names, and other place names. But many more place names are largely unknown to Americans than are well known (via the war or otherwise). Of course, Saigon, Hanoi, Dalat, etc. are usually given in English as single words rather than two, and without diacritics. But the provinces we have both ways. It's confusing. Badagnani 01:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

No diacritics seems to be the convenient thing for me. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

There're plentiful of convenient softwares for you, Blnguyen. @pple 10:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd likely find it more convenient to not use diacritics, but at the same time I do believe that things on wikipedia should be spelled correctly, and that means including the diacritics. I wouldn't mind having to google terms in order to find somewhere to copy-and-paste the correct spelling. LordAmeth 10:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I support diacritics and at least Carl Kenner agreed with me. I think his reason is persuasive. @pple 10:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not hard to make redirects from the non-diacritic spelling, which will take you from Nguyen to Nguyến. I'm using WinVNKey, which I just downloaded a few weeks ago, and it works great (for Vietnamese diacritics as well as French, German, Spanish, etc. ones). Badagnani 00:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Quite honestly, I see no place for diacritics at all in any of the articles in English Wikipedia except as a gloss to illustrate the Vietnamese spelling of a place name or proper name after the first occurrence of the name in its normal, unaccented English spelling. This is not a question of political correctness (respect for how others spell names), it's a question of simple convenience for the vast majority of readers who neither know nor care about how Vietnamese names are accented and are not interested in obtaining the fancy software to be able to type in Vietnamese. I find it difficult to locate the articles I wrote recently on the 1860s Cochinchina Campaign because place names like Vinh Long and Bien Hoa (their normal spelling in English) have been given accents. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia written in English, not Vietnamese. Having said that, we should gloss all Vietnamese place and personal names with their accented versions on their first appearance in an article.

Djwilms (talk) 09:22, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I hadn't realised this was a controversial issue, and by sheer coincidence have spent most of today removing diacriticals from the Cochinchina Campaign articles. Had I known that there was an ongoing discussion on the subject, I would have waited, but I only discovered this discussion five minutes ago. Before anybody reverts me, take a look at how I have dealt with the issue in one of these articles. Say, Capture of Bien Hoa. I start up front with the common English name (Bien Hoa), then gloss it once with its accented Vietnamese version, then use only the unaccented version for the rest of the article. But all links use both versions, so there's no difficulty in reaching the place you want to get to.

Please see Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (Vietnamese) on this matter. Yellowtailshark (talk) 06:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Collaboration

Does anyone want to start a monthly collaboration article or anything. One very bad article springs to mind....North Vietnam.....oh and we just got another FA. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Good idea! Chris 03:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

yes good idea I wish someone with the knowledge would do something with General Phan Van Tra biography as I believe he is dead and was told he was involved with the interim Southern Government as well, but can't find much at all. Furthermore the biog page suggests he is alive but I think not.--203.99.250.7 (talk) 03:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. Is this different than doing a translation of a vi:WP article? en:WP has done some good translations of articles from es:WP. Could be possibly start with some of the tasks that need doing, which have been outlined on the WPVN page? Like for example filling out some of the province articles which are just one or two sentences? We now have some good contributors who live in VN and have good sources, and vn:WP usually has more complete articles on VN-related subjects than we do. Badagnani 04:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

A list of articles need translation in newsletter? But I still wonder about the sources. Some individuals just won their fame within Vietnam boundary, so it's hard to find sources in English. According to Wikipedia:External links, non-English materials should be avoided. I'm going to create article for Huy Can. He's prominent, but (sigh)... @pple 18:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

And more: Does anyone care about contemporary Vietnamese politicians rather than historical ones? Nguyễn Tấn Dũng, Phan Văn Khải, Võ Văn Kiệt, Nguyễn Minh Triết etc. all in bad state now. @pple 18:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Had a quick look at Nguyễn Tấn Dũng and it raises a couple of issues. 1) the subject's name is spelt Dzung at one point - I understand what the motivation is, but it is not acceptable to switch between different spellings in one article. It really needs a sound link to the pronunciation to be added. 2) Article uses both UK and American date styles - we should settle on one for the project. Although I'm British I guess that recent Vietnamese publications in English more often use the American style so there is a logic for adopting that. Itsmejudith 13:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd second a collaborative effort for improving articles on some contemporary politicians. Not much is known about them, even in the Vietnamese-language Wikipedia. Most information that can be obtained about them are their official biographies on their Party activities prior to their current position. Their current views and policies are not really well-known unless they've already retired (Vo Van Kiet) or that they're involved in a scandal. DHN 00:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Both Dũng and Phục have unfortunate meanings in English. I think a footnote could be added after Dung to explain that the pronunciation isn't "Dung," but "Yung" (Southern) or "Zung" (Northern) Badagnani 00:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Can we get back to the idea of a collaboration, which User:Blnguyen presented above? Just let us know which article you want us all to work on, and we'll get started. Badagnani 00:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration is a very good idea. Perhaps we could start with one of the provinces? I have finished assessing them all (as "high" importance). Many are still stubs. I would also like to suggest that we adopt a standard format for province articles. For example, the WikiProject India guidelines for articles on Indian states can be found here and we could simply take that over as standard content for Vietnamese provinces. Note also that all the India-related articles use a standard style for spelling, dates and numbers. Itsmejudith 23:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like a good start. Pick a province whose article you feel is particularly deficient and outline some of the things you'd like to begin standardizing on the Indian model. Those of us who read Vietnamese can draw on vi:WP and Vietnamese sources, and we can also link each province's official govt. site (which I assume exist, just like for each province of the PRC). Perhaps some of our members in Vietnam can take photos or find maps as well. Badagnani 23:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thua Thien-Hue Province could be a good place to start. Many editors are interested in the history, and some of this should be introduced in summary, although most of the detail should be under the Hue city article. It is only a short stub at the moment. I will introduce some headings and put heading-stub templates on them, if that is acceptable. Itsmejudith 18:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Kho

Can anyone familiar with this dish help expand the Kho article? Badagnani 02:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Moves of all province articles away from diacritics to no diacritis

An editor named Sl has apparently just moved all the province articles that had diacritics in the title to no diacritics, without discussion or consensus. Thoughts? Badagnani 16:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

My thoughts are that above all we must be consistent throughout this whole project. My preference is also for diacritics, even though I don't yet know how to add them when I edit. Also that where there are diacritics in an article title there should be a redirect from the non-diacritic version.Itsmejudith 17:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Sl just did the opposite. We've got a discussion going on at the project page. I said that for Vietnamese Americans who don't use diacritics, we shouldn't use them in article titles. In other cases they might be desirable in article titles due to the different pronunciations of several letters between English and Vietnamese (such as "d"). Badagnani 17:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I think I misunderstood your post and I should have added my comments on the substantive issue of diacritic use in the proper place for that discussion. On SI's edits, I don't think they were helpful while the discussion is still continuing. It will be a lot of work to revert all of them and I think we shouldn't do that until we have quickly - and friendlily - reached consensus on the diacritics issue. Itsmejudith 17:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I've just dropped the user a line. Badagnani 17:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea. I just don't want to see that some places using diacritics as article names, while some articles are not. Please count me as neutral vote if such vote is held.--✉ Hello World! 17:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right--some titles were with diacritics, and some had none. It's because we never arrived at a consensus yet. Thanks for your work here in enhancing usability between the vi: and en: Wikipedias. Badagnani 17:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Besides, some articles' name contain spaces, and some are not (particularly notable ones). Should they be consistent?--✉ Hello World! 18:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

In English Wikipedia we usually use the most common English rendering (i.e. Hanoi instead of Ha Noi). Or if it's an obscure place and there is no commonly used English rendering, we might use instead the way the province/city itself or the Vietnamese government refer to the name when discussing it in English on their official website or other publicity. Badagnani 18:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Similar incidences have occured at Can Tho and Can Tho Bridge. — Moe ε 17:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you explain in more detail? Badagnani 17:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure. I began editing to improve the article on Can Tho Bridge after the Collapse of Can Tho Bridge occured. Noticing that the article's correct title was Cần Thơ Bridge, I moved the article there. From there I moved 'Collapse of Can Tho Bridge' to 'Collapse of Cần Thơ Bridge' and 'Can Tho' to Cần Thơ' and I moved a related providence to the title with diacritics. I looked at the template listing all providences and cities in Vietnam, and noticed that the majority of the articles had used the naming convention without diacritics, then I read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). From that, I determined that Can Tho and all related articles should be moved back, so I undid my page moves. Other editors began moving it back to the title 'Cần Thơ Bridge' citing diacritics were alright for titles, and I reverted stating that 'Can Tho' is prefered over 'Cần Thơ' because of the large amount of Vietnam providences and cities titled without the diacritics. Their argument suggests that because there is no 'official English name for Cần Thơ Bridge', diacritics should be used. I stated that there apparently is some kind of consensus, because all the articles are titled without diacritics and pointed them here to discuss it if they wish to furthur pursue it. IMHO, 'Can Tho Bridge', without the diacritics, is an acceptable English spelling (despite it not being official). I don't normally like to do this, but I Google tested it because of the sheer differential. Cần Thơ Bridge pulls up 119,000 results while Can Tho Bridge pulls up 1,630,000. Of that 1,630,000, some are Vietnamese websites or under a Vietnamese domain. That draws me to conclude that English spelling should be used for these articles titles. — Moe ε 18:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (Vietnamese) on this matter. Yellowtailshark (talk) 06:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Assessment classes

I've assessed Agent Orange as mid-importance and think that Agent White and the others should be low-importance. Do others agree? And what importance do we give to the articles on languages and language groups, e.g. Chamic. I don't want to assess too many that will have to be changed later. Thanks. Itsmejudith 20:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Mì Quảng question

What are the noodles used for Mì Quảng made from? Rice flour and turmeric? Any other ingredients such as wheat or tapioca flour? Does anyone have access to a package of commercially available noodles or can look this up in Vietnamese or ask someone who knows? Badagnani 06:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It has egg in it. and probbaly other stuff. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Châu Thành

I am interested why there are 9 counties in Viet Nam called Châu Thành. Anyone know? -✉ Hello World! 17:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Arrest_and_assassination_of_Ngo_Dinh_Diem

I'm hoping to get this to FA in time for November 2, when he was killed. There's never been a VN FA on the main page before. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Paddy field

The Vietnam section in the above article has been expanded, but the English is not good and in several places I'm not clear what is intended. Does anyone have time to help out? Itsmejudith 21:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Help on Wiktionary

If anyone wants to help out in regards to checking Vietnamese translations on Wiktionary, it would be much appreciated - we're developing something of a backlog: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Translations_to_be_checked_%28Vietnamese%29 Any help would be great. Thanks! Black-Velvet 11:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Article in Vietnamese needs translation: Gia đình phật tử

There's a page written in Vietnamese, Gia đình phật tử, which is on AfD right now because it has gone untranslated for a month. You can comment on whether it should be deleted here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gia đình phật tử. (Cross-posted also to User talk:Blnguyen) Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh 01:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Southeast Asian cinema task force

The Southeast Asian cinema task force was recently started as a joint project of WikiProject Films and WikiProject Southeast Asia. Editors who are writing about Vietnamese films are welcome to join the project, where they will find support for collaboration on new articles and the expansion and promotion of existing articles. — WiseKwai 11:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Vietnam people! Please see this map

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Qing_Dynasty_map.png ( Source from Qing )

Dark Green: Qing China

Light Green: affiliated states

Vietnam was affiliated states of Qing China? is it true? Heinekenbeerlover 13:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure it is. I don't know that much about the details of the history of that period, but as Viet Nam was long a part of the Sinosphere, I'd be surprised if that did not remain true into the Qing period. Whether they could be called a tributary, a vassal state, a colony, an ally, or anything like that I do not know, but Viet Nam was most assuredly within the Chinese cultural sphere as it had been for centuries. LordAmeth 22:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Resolved.[5] --Nightshadow28 (talk) 16:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

City infobox

It appears that an editor is attempting to create a Vietnamese city infobox at Thai Nguyen. While we have a province infobox, I don't believe we have a Vietnamese city one (though Vietnamese Wikipedia appears to). Can someone help him/her? Badagnani (talk) 03:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Huỳnh Công Út

The article on Huỳnh Công Út, aka Nick Ut, starts with the explanation:

This is a Vietnamese name; the family name is Út, but is often simplified as Ut in English-language text. According to Vietnamese custom, this person properly should be referred to by the given name Công or Nick.

Now, I read in Vietnamese name that Vietnamese names generally consist of three parts: a family name, a middle name, and a given name, used in that order.

"Generally" doesn't mean "always". Is Huỳnh Công Út one of the exceptions, or is the explanation at the top of his article wrong? Anyway, what's the correct order for his Vietnamese name? If the article were to refer to him by his Vietnamese name (which in his case strikes me as pedantic), by which one of the three names should he be repeatedly referred? -- Hoary (talk) 04:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The explanation on top of his article is wrong. Fixed. Huỳnh is a common Vietnamese name, but if you were to refer to him as a Vietnamese person (not applicable in this case since he lives in the US), he would be referred to by his given name, Ut. DHN (talk) 04:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! -- Hoary (talk) 22:45, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Lý Nam Đế

(Will also be posted to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China.) There is an anonymous editor who insists on (without discussion) removing Chinese characters and pinyin of Lý Nam Đế. Now, before I am to treat this person as a vandal, I'd like to get some general feelings about this. If you can, please discuss the issue on Talk:Lý Nam Đế. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 05:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Unilateral article title changes

Alert, people--I know it's the holidays but User:JacquesNguyen is moving many articles unilaterally (typically adding diacritics to the new titles). See edit history. There was no agreement on this previously; however, he does not participate in this WikiProject yet works on many Vietnam-related articles, where he has become known for massive blanking, use of bad language, and uncited copying of swathes of text from published history books in articles he has begun. Please turn your attention to this and take action if you believe it necessary. Badagnani (talk) 23:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

He is still doing this. Is it not time for us to reach a consensus on the diacritics issue? I am generally pro diacritic on the grounds that people who speak Vietnamese or are learning it (even at a very basic level, e.g. for use on holiday) frequently need the diacritics in order to distinguish different words or even to get anywhere close to a comprehensible pronunciation. Therefore I don't particularly see the user's page moves as vandalism. We must keep a close eye out for any blanking, bad language or plagiarism though. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)