Talk:2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash

Requested move 19 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW. (closed by non-admin page mover) Queen of Hearts (talk) 20:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

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2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash → 2024 Iranian leadership helicopter crash – Similar to 2023 Wagner Group plane crash. The current title really undersells the significance of this event. Bremps... 15:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment — I amended your move as this is a helicopter crash. I made the same mistake myself. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 15:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think I'd be supportive, but I would prefer if we could please wait until things settle down a little. We don't even fully know what happened yet, let alone have a WP:COMMONNAME. Current events articles immediately getting a bazillion move requests opened is definitely a pet peeve of mine, we may as well close as no consensus now. Toadspike [Talk] 15:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  In general, I agree with you, but 2024 Iranian Presidential Helicopter Crash seems safe. No one is denying that the President was aboard. 2600:4040:297C:8F00:A9E5:4E04:EFC7:7F73 (talk) 16:24, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  That name would work but it would undersell the fact that the FM was also onboard. Bremps... 16:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support but we gotta wait a bit Waleed (talk) 16:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• As of now, I probably wouldn't support it just to be consistent with other article titles. From what I've seen, they describe the location of the crash rather than who was aboard. Triclops Queen (talk) 16:39, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• comment maybe changing the title into "2024 iranien president's helicopter crash" would be the most the most relevent. all the media are emphasizing on Raisi's presence in the choper here CNN https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/raisi-iran-president-helicopter-crash/index.html Anticonstitutionnelist (talk) 16:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Too clunky title. Borgenland (talk) 17:24, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose — Per Borgenland. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 17:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. It is appropriately titled per WP:NCE. We should not rename until a commonname is more established. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose for now. Wait a little while I think. Sadustu Tau (talk) 17:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose for now until a WP:COMMONNAME is established. Spiderpig662 (talk) 17:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support. I agree it needs to sound more notable. Wjfox2005 (talk) 18:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose other articles about crashes with similarly notable persons on board (e.g Kobe Bryant) - are consistently named by year and location 2020 Calabasas helicopter crash Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 18:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per above, such a title would deviate from the standard titles for the similar pages. Egeymi (talk) 18:25, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposed name is not (yet) a common name. The Smolensk air disaster did not become commonly known as the 2010 Polish leadership plane crash even though it killed the Polish president, his wife, the national bank head, several senior military leaders, 18 members of parliament, and senior govt officials. Boud (talk) 19:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Disaster management, WikiProject Iran, and WikiProject Aviation have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 19:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Succession

Isn't discussing a succession too WP:CRYSTALBALL??? Borgenland (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

not necesserly because there if facts about it, it's enshrined in the iranian constution article 131

look on president of iran on "inability of the president" Anticonstitutionnelist (talk) 23:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

No indication of Israeli involvement

There is no indication of Israeli intelligence involvement at this time. The source cited doesn't mention anything about it either. Edit: The part mentioning that seems to have been removed from this page. 82.2.41.189 (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The Wayback archive URL is currently invalid. Leaving aside that WP:DAILYMIRROR is a tabloid and a no consensus source, in the source I don't see anything about Israeli intelligence being involved in the crash either. This was the edit that introduced the claim. Boud (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Any objections to removing the Arab-Israeli contentious topic warning?

We currently have {{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=a-i}} on this talk page, but there is so far only speculation about Arab-Israeli involvement. We don't have any warning about the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict, even though the event happened near the Azerbaijan border, and we don't have any warning about post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, even though Iran is under US sanctions and US-Iran relations come up often in post-1992 US political discussions.

Any objections to removing this particular template (topic=a-i) from this talk page? Boud (talk) 19:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree, we should really wait before at all relating the crash to Israel or anything to do with the conflict, as right now it is entirely speculation. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 19:11, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Apologies I forgot to remove it when I was trying to find a related article. Borgenland (talk) 20:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe link Kobe Bryant helicopter crash to Iran? 2600:1017:B8C2:648A:551:3330:2A7D:334C (talk) 00:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

what? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 02:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

No objection, I was thinking the same thing myself. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done Boud (talk) 20:12, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The helicopter

Some sources say the involved helicopter was a Bell 212, not 412 which is usually used in official Iranian President travels. Aminabzz (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

which sources? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/5/19/iran-helicopter-accident-live-president-fm-on-missing-aircraft?update=2910784. Borgenland (talk) 20:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I was going to say that from the photos in the article it looks like a 212 (just 2 blades on the rotor), but was hesitant to change just on the basis of my visual impression.

Now that we have a source saying that, I think we should change it. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we should. Rynoip (talk) 21:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I already did :) Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Nice. Rynoip (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

nevermind its still 212 for some reason ill try to change it Rynoip (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

But it is actually a 212... Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 23:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

It is? i thought the topic was about it being a 412 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/5/19/iran-helicopter-accident-live-president-fm-on-missing-aircraft?update=2910784 Rynoip (talk) 23:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, no, sorry for the confusion, the article originally said it was a 412, but it is actually a 212. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 02:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

the picture is probably not from the crashed one 172.59.212.22 (talk) 03:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Iran is not listed under oparaters in the Wikipedia page of the Bell 412 but it is listed on the Bell 212 page so I think it's very clear that it was a 212 172.59.212.22 (talk) 04:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Were there any signs of the helicopter having been sabotaged?195.244.210.117 (talk) 06:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I am bringing up the issue of the photo of the helicopter in the infobox. I was surprised that Wikipedia had such a closeup, free-to-use photo, and I exposed here why this photo may not be depicting the President's crashed helicopter: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AIranian_presidential_helicopter_crashed_2024.jpg#Issues_with_this_photo --Inotodo (talk) 07:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

File:Raisi's helicopter leaving Khudafarin (cropped).jpg

Is this the president's helicopter or a rescue helicopter? The caption on Wikipedia differs from the one on Commons. The image has no source URL to verify. Schierbecker (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I found the photograph here. It is of the president's helicopter. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 21:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

According to who? Schierbecker (talk) 22:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The source is MEHR, relying on Tabriz. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

From MEHR: "Tabriz- The helicopter carrying the president on its way back from Khodafarin to Tabriz fell in poor conditions in the region; the interior minister confirmed the crash announced the dispatch of relief groups to the region." This doesn't verify the caption. Is this the helicopter carrying the president, or another helicopter in the same convoy? Schierbecker (talk) 22:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

New York Times photo caption: "In a photo provided by Islamic Republic News Agency, the helicopter carrying Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi took off at the Iranian border with Azerbaijan". -- GreenC 22:59, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

That photo comes from the Islamic Republic News Agency and from a different photographer. Schierbecker (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

It is the same helicopter. The photographs have different angles. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

There were three helicopters involved in the convoy. How do you know? Schierbecker (talk) 06:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Khamenei quote

Khamenei's quote is mistranslated. He said to the people that "[They] don't need to be worried or anxious as administration of country will not be disrupted at all" Source Jondoeburner (talk) 21:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

(Source is english.khamenei.ir/). Thanks. That makes much more sense. Moscow Mule (talk) 00:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Türkiye sent Akıncı drone to support search and rescue efforts

I think this is an important topic that should be included in the article. Source Tahriqedicii (talk) 23:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Varzaqan helicopter crash?

As we can see, the year isn't needed here and I doubt any sources there use it. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

No, the crashes constantly indicate the year as well as location Waleed (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

how long till he's no longer President?

How long can he be missing until power is given to the next in the line of succession? 2602:306:BC74:6240:948:979E:186E:2296 (talk) 00:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

As with who's next, when he "takes power" is decided by the Supreme Leader, whenever he wants. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Location found by the Akinci drone

Possible location at Tavil/Tawil per AJE live blog - "The official said the location is in an area called Tavil. Iran's Press TV also reported that rescue forces are heading towards the spot." The slopes are clearly steep - a gradient of something like 1 in 2, i.e. 27 degrees. Not yet usable, but there should be proper sources soon. Boud (talk) 01:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

should we move the article since crash site location updated?

should we move the page to something like "2024 Jolfa helicopter crash" since [1] reported a updated location? Haers6120 (talk) 02:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd be ok with that, but it probably requires a move request, seeing as the previous move was contested. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 02:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

in the video shown here the coordinates are N 38 46 21 E 46 43 24 Schrauber5 (talk) 03:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

According to Cedarnews the site is N 38 47 10 E 46 42 56 which is 2km away Schrauber5 (talk) 04:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

According to this image from a Turkish drone finding a hotspot, the coords are 38° 46′ 04″ N, 46° 41′ 33″ E near the village of Tavil, East Azerbaijan. I have made it so the article displays the coordinates from Wikidata so there won't have to be edit conflicts. If anyone wants to adjust the coords, please do so on Wikidata. Abductive (reasoning) 09:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The videos from the Turkish drone do NOT match the videos of the actual crash site (terrain, actual crash location is NOT on a top of a ridge). Seems Bayraktar was searching in the wrong location - they likely mistook the camp fire of a freezing rescue team. Maybe they did not release the video with the correct hotspot - or maybe Bayraktar wasn't even involved in finding the crash site (despite Turkish claims). At least the current location from the Bayraktar hotspot (38° 46′ 04″ N, 46° 41′ 33″ E) is not correct. MrHRFloyd (talk) 11:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I have adjusted the coords to 38°44′34″N 46°39′37″E, 2 km SW of Uzi. Make any change as you see fit on Wikidata here. Abductive (reasoning) 11:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Foreign reactions

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/reactions-crash-iranian-presidents-helicopter-2024-05-19/

dropping this here since I can't edit Readingpro256 _{talk to me contribs} 02:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

No Survivors

CNN is reporting that "No survivors" were found at the crash site. They are citing both IRINN and Mehr News. https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/raisi-iran-president-helicopter-crash/h_84e1c9ad10338418fd5540d8f7723cc6

• Brother you just added a new section instead of adding a topic, moreover I think that this should be added.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 May 2024

(Under "Crash" section) change awkwardly phrased "Giz Galasi event" to "inauguration of the complex", which would also connect better with the preceding "Background" section. Td 078 (talk) 03:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

•  Done Aviationwikiflight (talk) 10:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Text mentioning continuity with vice president has been deleted

There was a line but it has been deleted that Mokhber is now president for 6 month Baratiiman (talk) 03:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

[2]https://www.shora-gc.ir/en/news/87/constitution-of-the-islamic-republic-of-iran-full-text

Article 131 stated he first deputy of the President, is obliged to arrange for a new President to be elected within a maximum period of fifty days not 6 month 78.39.140.179 (talk) 09:11, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Russia sent 47 people two planes and a chopper

https://www.khabaronline.ir/amp/1908840/ Baratiiman (talk) 04:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 May 2024 (2)

Well-wishes and offers of support came from Prime Minister of India Narendra Modi, Prime Minister of Pakistan Shehbaz Sharif, President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, and the foreign ministries of Afghanistan, China, Kuwait, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar.

Adding China to the list of foreign ministeries at the end of the International section. EZJC (talk) 04:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Please add Australia as well.

https://www.aap.com.au/news/pm-waits-for-news-on-crash-search-for-iranian-president/ Amoresmore (talk) 07:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Main picture is wrong

On the picture is not a helicopter but a plane and it is a different accident - پیدا شدن لاشه هواپیمای سقوط کرده در مازندران (tinn.ir) 85.163.239.53 (talk) 07:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Add Australia to list of reactions during search

https://www.aap.com.au/news/pm-waits-for-news-on-crash-search-for-iranian-president/

Australia prime minister also commented on the search. Amoresmore (talk) 07:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Reuters list of reactions

https://www.reuters.com/world/reactions-death-irans-president-helicopter-crash-2024-05-20/

Includes EU, Japan, Sri Lanka, Egypt, etc. 2Links (talk) 08:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The current listing on wikipedia seems to suggest that only Muslim countries and India cared about the search and death, which is a very odd and skewed view of the real situation. I suggest it needs to be written in the order of deliverance, alphabetically or geographically. Amoresmore (talk) 08:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Although those were the first reported, section definitely needs expanding now that there are reactions from others. Prefer organizing geographically as in other articles. 2Links (talk) 08:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Flag salad "Reactions" section

As many of you know, most editors despise list-formatted "Reactions" sections, especially the flag icons. These sections should be converted into prose—not a bulleted (flagged) list. Sourcing should not be primary, such as tweets, and should have encyclopedic value. A politician giving his/her condolences does not have much, if any, encyclopedic value, and each certainly does not need its own sentence or paragraph. Abductive (reasoning) 09:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Even if we don't make a list, shouldn’t we write who from which state or just wich countries sent condolences? Zeeshan Y Tariq (talk) 09:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, little to add to what you've said. The flags add little more than prettiness (not a good enough rationale), and the quotes add nothing but a show of support, kind words, or sympathy (not a good enough rationale). I have no real objection to mentioning which countries/organisations/etc. that have made statements (provided it's prose AND isn't so many that it gets out of hand), but WP:QUOTEFARM and WP:LISTDD should guide us in this instance. MIDI (talk) 09:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Most of the first paragraph needs to be removed as it is virtually all primary source too. Amoresmore (talk) 09:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Xxx2023 please respond here before making unilateral moves. Your actions are no longer opposed by a solo editor. Borgenland (talk) 09:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Flags are being used to inmprove visibilty, in which reader can easily find how each country reacted to the incident. A list is the best method to present several inputs so I do not see any issue in sorting the info in such manner. Xxx2023 (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

But does every country's reaction follow WP:UNDUE guidelines though? Wikipedia is not a dumping ground for each country's reaction. Borgenland (talk) 09:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd give leeway for official mourning abroad. As for the flag soup, it is clear that some editors have failed to read WP:UNDUE, not to mention the tons of copyvio, commentary and WP:QUOTEFARMs that I have had to clean up. Borgenland (talk) 09:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

There are lots of articles which have a separate page regarding reaction to that certain event. Does this incident Chris Rock–Will Smith slapping incident deserve a so-called "encyclopedic" article! Let's see how most users would argue to figure out the final outcome. Xxx2023 (talk) 09:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The current paragraph without the flags gives undue weight to Muslim countries and India.

Why is India included considering its geopolitical relations are very minor? It's not even part of the Iranian axis.

Where is China? Why has the EU not been mentioned despite being involved according to other text? Amoresmore (talk) 09:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

My only concern was that you would remove all content related to the sections. To be honest the latest version looks decent! Xxx2023 (talk) 09:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The problems with these 'reaction' sections is that in every case where world leader is killed, or dies, at some point all 195 countries, and innumerable 'international organisations' will have something to say about it; I think it's better to wait for an independent source to make a 'reaction to the accident' article, rather than relying on primary sources. JeffUK 10:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the section should be removed and replaced with an aftermath section. Reactions are only required if they have a meaningful impact on humanity. Amoresmore (talk) 11:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Casualties

Per [[3]], I can only count eight people (5 passengers and 3 crew). Who was victim no. 9??? Borgenland (talk) Borgenland (talk) 10:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

This article adds 'A bodyguard' not listed on the Al Jazeera link. [4] - Raisa, Amir-Abdollahian, Ale-Hashem, Malek Rahmati, Raisi’s head of security, a bodyguard, 3 Flight crew. Makes 9, but I've changed it up a bit, so the lead sentence makes it clearer everyone died, then we list who was onboard. JeffUK 10:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

AP now reported it as 8. Borgenland (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Precise location (coords)

Our article states "The helicopter's exact location and condition have not been disclosed" and provides a citation. We also have coords in use for the crash site – either the coords fail WP:V, or the earlier quote is outdated. Which is it? MIDI (talk) 10:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

That earlier quote was there more than 24 hours ago. In light of this, I think it should go. Borgenland (talk) 10:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The source is the image in this Turkish article. Abductive (reasoning) 10:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The morning crew at the BBC finally rubbed the sleep out of their eyes and found it. I have adjusted accordingly. Abductive (reasoning) 11:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)