Talk:Pink slime/Archive 1

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Term or topic?

Is this about the definition or usage of the term (as in f***) or about the concept or practice, as in sexual intercourse? --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:50, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Neutral Language

This article sounds like BPI wrote it, almost. I'm going to trim away some of the unbiased language. -bart — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.75.34 (talk) 14:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed that it virtually promotes "Pink Slime" - the concerns that originated the term are relegated to a brief "Controversy". I have corrected the misleading characterization of the NYT editorial as a "retraction" - but the whole thing needs fixing. LL. 64.134.142.61 (talk) 01:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

yeup. it's pretty obvious. the "what it is" has been intermingled and suffused with "what people think about it". classic sign of NPOV. Decora (talk) 01:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I came to wikipedia for clarification after coming across the term "pink slime" elsewhere, and was startled by the tone of the article. Identifying the term "pink slime" as "derogatory" is fair enough, but the rest of the article reads like an industry press release. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.6.57 (talk) 03:32, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Incredibly biased, in my opinion, entire article should be rewritten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.234.17.244 (talk) 00:58, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

It's incredibly biased, I agree, but in my view from the other point of view. It does not at all sound to me like something BPI would have written. The very fact that it does not redirect to "boneless lean beef trimmings" and instead sticks with the "Pink Slime" label seems to me that there is bias against it. In my opinion, it is gross, but that doesn't mean it belongs in the article. The term "pink slime" is used a number of times throughout the article in a manner that seems to lend legitimacy to the term when it is, after all, a term coined only recently by one doctor/author. In my view, the entire article should be removed and the entry "pink slime" redirected to "boneless lean beef trimmings" (an article that does not yet exist) in order to maintain some element of neutrality. My recommendation would be to create a stub for "boneless lean beef trimmings", redirect "pink slime" to it and then delete this current article in its entirety and start over. Some things are not fixable and this article is one. - jonnyhabenero — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonnyhabenero (talk • contribs) 09:04, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the bias. Just because there are facts that can be considered to be "good" doesn't mean it's biased. Perhaps the other posters came to Wikipedia looking for a "pink slime bashing" but instead were confronted with dry facts; some of which did not support their preconceptions. And why would anyone have to state that referring to a term as derogatory (at least in this sense) is "fair enough". Of course it's "fair enough" because it's the truth. It's as if you didn't want the article to say it's derogatory lest it remind people that there is a real name for it with neutral connotations and thus indicate that maybe it's not as bad as it sounds.

Also, another possibility is that the bias has been edited out and I just don't know it.76.125.70.214 (talk) 03:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't care what the title is, that falls under WP:commonname, but common name protection does NOT extend to the article content, and "Pink Slime" is neither the industry used term, nor a neutral term, and the use of said term should be stricken from this article. This is an encyclopedia for god's sake. Rip-Saw (talk) 16:23, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

The controversy is actually being caused by sensationalism and the public ignorance of how sausage has been made for thousands of years. Anyone who is familiar with sausage making and food science would be impressed by the reaction more than the process.RichardBond (talk) 14:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, a wikt:cheap shot, see "How ABC News smeared a stellar company with 'pink slime'" By Dan Gainor Published March 23, 2012 FoxNews.com User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the assertion from the lede that ABC News popularized the term in March 2012, as I can find use of the term in online news from as early as Jan. 2010 so far: [1], [2], [3]. Scopecreep (talk) 13:01, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Popularizing is coverage that has enough impact that the term enters general public discourse, as clearly the recent series run by ABC News did. The assertion is supported by "How ABC News smeared a stellar company with 'pink slime'" further down. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:04, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Well here in the UK we don't watch ABC News much, so they did little to popularize it here or in the rest of the English-speaking world. Here's a Fox News reference that says the term was coined in 2002 by Food Safety Inspection Service microbiologist Gerald Zirnstein [4]. Scopecreep (talk) 13:08, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The lede is a summary of the article and does not need every reference with supports it provided the information in the article is referenced. It is understandable that you don't fully appreciate the role ABC News plays in the United States. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:10, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Coinage of a term should be differentiated from use by an authoritative national forum which establishes a word in popular culture. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

English Wikipedia isn't only for a US audience though, and who did most to popularize a term recently in one country isn't as important as when it was first used, and how long it's been in use. Note that there's already a NYT reference in the article from 2009 using the term [5].

Widespread disgust and abandonment of the product in the United States clearly resulted from the ABC News feature. What is happening worldwide is an interesting question. Is the term pink slime being widely used in the UK. What happens when you search The Guardian or BBC? User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:32, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

BBC. Note that coverage continues to be of US production and use. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

There's a whole history section in the article, detailing mainstream use of the word between 2009 and 2011 with references. If references can be found linking a drop in the use of the product worldwide in 2012 linked to the ABC News programme, then that should be added. Otherwise it's just guesswork as to when and how the term was most recently popularized. Scopecreep (talk) 13:39, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Hardly guesswork, it is only now that there is massive abandonment of the use of the product by major firms and major cutbacks in production. The great principle of logical thinking "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" is in play. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Here 80% of Guardian readers decide pink slime is not safe to eat. Bangers, of course, are alright. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:42, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

That would depend, I suppose, on the banger: Eeeeeew. :-) Scopecreep (talk) 13:46, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I can't imagine adding flour and soy degrades its healthfulness in any way. User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:02, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Featured on Word Spy today. Maybe it will be word of the year. Wikt:pink slime. User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:10, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Safety

WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Well, contrary to the beliefs of Nancy and Carol (if its truly what they think), the "fast food" industry is feeding us poison which we should stay away from at all cost. The burger meats, chicken nuggets and many other forms of "fast food" are highly toxic to the health and can cause obesity and all kind of cancers.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.203.110 (talk • contribs) A consequence common to all meat and animal fat, not peculiar to this product or the fast food industry; the fine dining and natural foods industries seem to also be deeply involved. User:Fred Bauder Talk 11:57, 28 March 2012 (UTC) Let's stick to facts. This is not a place for general discussion of the topic at hand, and it is certainly not a place for unsourced, citation-free pontification or fact-free declarations. There are many internet forums dedicated to such discussion. Go find them. Jparenti (talk) 05:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Factory tour

ABC coverage March 29 They're backing off quite a bit, "What critics call 'pink slime.'" User:Fred Bauder Talk 02:57, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

well, no. gov. perry went on a publicity tour for Beef Products, Inc. and said that. they - whoever that may be - are not backing off. the manufacturer has simply decided to polish its image. --87.171.92.187 (talk) 07:22, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Politico: Governors show love for 'pink slime' User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:57, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

AP: "Govs tour Neb. beef plant to see 'pink slime'" Shows a low-resolution picture of the line. User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:06, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Governors from three meat-producing states today defended Beef Products Inc., the company that makes lean finely textured beef, which now-former USDA scientists 'nicknamed' "pink slime," after a walk through the company's plant accompanied by ABC News.

"Let's call this product what it is and let 'pink slime' 'become a term of the past'," Texas Gov. Rick Perry said after the tour, after which officials showed off t-shirts with the slogan, "Dude, it's beef!" Aperseghin (talk) 13:09, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

It isn't beef no matter how many times one company and its cronies insist on it. However it is noteworthy to mention the massive propaganda machine going on around the issue.LuciferWildCat (talk) 23:39, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Notice the subtle slander in the AP quote there? "now-former USDA scientists" is clearly intended to evoke a dismissive reaction from the speakers audience.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 05:16, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Very true and we need to cut that out of portions of the article written or influenced by that POV pushing.LuciferWildCat (talk) 11:05, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

scare quotes

Are actually proper in this case as major newspapers etc. have been using the term "pink slime" in quotation marks per their own manuals of style - and Wikipedia should follow their lead in this case. Collect (talk) 16:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, and all the more reason it shouldn't be the title of the article. Powers ^T 19:57, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

It is not the only such article on Wikipedia - and it certainly appears to be the most common term applied at this point. As long as we keep the tone neutral, it could be called "Meatamite" for all I care <g>. Collect (talk) 21:04, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Scare quotes are not appropriate, they are simply used as standard for emerging terms by journalistic manuals of style and are unnecessary here on wikipedia. It is clearly the only term in common use and fervently opposed by industry brownosers here and throughout the media, furthermore the company Beef Products even uses the term pink slime to say it should really be called x because of people's unfamiliarity with it's deception euphemistic company jargon,LuciferWildCat (talk) 23:36, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

"Industry brownnosers"? Yes, anyone who disagrees with you must ... I don't know, want something from the meatpacking industry? Please try to be a bit more collegial in your commentary. We're all trying to improve the encyclopedia here. Powers ^T 02:19, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes industry brownosers, the anonymous IPs, and new and single purpose accounts, and people that claim to have visited the company but not worked for it, have friends there but not have a conflict of interest. We should make a concerted effort to block and prevent abuse and POV pushing by this company and it's propaganda and report honestly what this food product is. Not anyone that disagrees with me, but those that are dubious in their sincerity at improving the article and those that clearly have only read the company's webpage only need to be filtered out from having their say count here. Wikipedia is better than that and should stay independent of that.LuciferWildCat (talk) 04:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Scare quotes are absolutely appropriate here since to not use them would be misleading. Even in day-to-day affairs I've heard people say "'pink slime,' or whatever it's actually called." The general public and the news media both know that the term is not proper, so Wikipedia must reflect that. Rip-Saw (talk) 04:33, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Addendum 11 out of 13 references use quotes in the actual reference. It is quite clear the the term "pink slime" is the most commonly used term, not pink slime. Rip-Saw (talk) 04:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Not at all, using them misleads people into thinking the term may be dubious when it is not. The media may use it to avoid a lawsuit from BPI or because it is a neologism, but we don't need to follow suit. When people talk about pink slime they talk about pink slime not "pink slime". Also "the media and general public both know" is a statement that reaks of PR POV pushing with its domineering all knowing tone, especially from an account with that has only made edits to about 4 or 5 topics and has around 30 edits total, ever.LuciferWildCat (talk) 05:20, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Your own POV on this subject reeks, with edits such as adding "waste" to the description when 5 out of 6 sources for this article use the term scraps and scraps alone. The general consensus in the public eye is clearly that "pink slime" is a neologistic term, it is dubious since it is being disputed right now, and your refusal to admit that further compounds your own POV. Furthermore, you are violating WP:Civility with your ad hominem attack on myself. Perhaps you should review your own history of dubious edits on your own talk page before questioning the edit history of others. Rip-Saw (talk) 05:44, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I am not inserting any POV into the article just facts, that only the company itself would dislike. The word "waste" is used in one of the citations and is just as valid as scraps. Just because a term is used in sources doesn't mean we copy and paste their usage, that is plagiarism. We write sentences as independent writers using the sources as proof of our assertions but it is actually good writing to use different adjectives and adverbs and nouns from the sources to show that at the very least some honest paraphrasing took place. Your personal opinion about the public's view is extremely screwed against rationality and makes me suspect your involvement and conflict of interest even more. Everyone is saying pink slime. It isn't a neologism since it has been around for over 10 years and that is cited. Only a bias minority with a stake in profits is disputing that and the use of pink slime has already been voted on and approved. I have not attacked you in anyway, however your unsubstantiated accusation of vandalism is actually considered a personal attack, since I clearly was just adding a referenced sentence in my continued attempts to improve an article that is a work in progress. It would be wise for you to get some more experience editing here before making such rash accusations.LuciferWildCat (talk) 07:30, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

You are very much so making personal attacks. When you say things like "Only a bias minority with a stake in profits is disputing that and the use of pink slime has already been voted on and approved," you are saying that if an editor disagrees with your position then they must be a corporate shill - it's a false dilemma. This is unacceptable behavior. From what I've read on this talk page from you it appears to me as though you are far too involved to have a neutral take on this discussion and it's getting disruptive. Please either WP:COOL it down or take a break. SÆdon^talk 09:41, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Other editors have claimed my good faith edits are vandalism and that is the only personal attack that I have seen. That statement is true. Read further up and you will see that the community has decided that this should be called pink slime. Furthermore any IP address or single purpose account that aggressively promotes the company position is highly suspect.LuciferWildCat (talk) 11:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Saedon is correct; you need to cut back on the rhetoric and start treating your collaborators with more respect. Powers ^T 14:37, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Use of term "waste"

There are 21 cited sources in this article, 7 use the term scrap, 1 uses the term waste. Scraps, by definition: bits or pieces of food, especially of leftover or discarded food already incorporates the definition of waste: left over or superfluous, therefore using both terms is redundant and the more descriptive term wins out. Rip-Saw (talk) 06:35, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't mean it isn't waste. Besides waste is better than pulverized cow anus as many bloggers and members of the public are now referring to the product. I am sure Steven Colbert will be using it soon.! Also don't talk as if you are the one that decides who wins out. lol.LuciferWildCat (talk) 06:58, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

If 7 sources are calling it scraps and 1 is calling it waste then we're giving a term WP:UNDUE weight. It's true that 7 sources using "scraps" doesn't mean it's not waste (logically it also doesn't mean it's not a tennis racquet, or anything else for that matter), but it's not our job to determine terminology, we report what the sources say. Yes, "waste" is better than "pulverized cow anus," and it's also better than a million other things, but since the sources don't call it "pulverized cow anus" or a million other things, we don't. SÆdon^talk 09:32, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

We don't say exactly what the sources say every time, especially when a term has to be repeated again and again, and since many different sources say "scrap" "waste" "filler" and "additive" we should use them all in an alternating fashion or similar terms paraphrasing the meaning such as rubbish or byproduct substance and they should all be listed.LuciferWildCat (talk) 11:00, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

"Liquid Ammonia" or Ammonia/Water Solution?

"An episode of Jamie Oliver's Food Revolution depicted his interpretation of the production process, in which Oliver douses beef trimmings in liquid ammonia in front of parents."

Either, by liquid ammonia, they mean "ammonia dissolved in water" or I find this highly unlikely. It would be very hazardous for someone to douse anything in liquid ammonia (see "anhydrous ammonia" on Wikipedia which should just be under "ammonia") in the open and in front of other people. Could someone who knows about this show tell us what exactly Oliver did so this can be resolved?

What is acutaly used in most packing plants is citric acid, not ammonia hydroxide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beasthawk (talk • contribs) 15:46, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Ammonia is actually used in traditional recipes from many parts of the world in Europe particularly Scandinavia in the form of Ammonium carbonate.RichardBond (talk) 14:35, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Either way, the end result is ammonium hydroxide. Most likely they do start with anhydrous liquid ammonia, possibly shipped in via rail car. (alternately, they make ammonia on site) Once allowed to boil, it becomes ammonia gas. Once added to water, such as the water that naturally occurs in cattle, you get ammonium hydroxide. 208.118.18.229 (talk) 07:40, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

How is this different from butcher beef trimmings?

Here's a clip from Good Eats in which Alton Brown suggests that beef trimmings are actually a very high quality meat: Alton Brown on ground beef. How does this differ from so-called "pink slime?" --Modemac (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Pink slime (also known as Lean Finely Textured Beef) is only one of six different products from advanced meat recovery processes, so if you go to that article you will find a more general discussion. __meco (talk) 20:52, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

The AMR article was in error. LFTB (aka Pink Slime) is unrelated to AMR. In fact, some in the AMR community questioned why LFTB received special treatment and is allowed in USDA ground beef while AMR trimmings are not. - Hoplon (talk) 22:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Pink slime is meat that's been rendered no? 70.24.244.198 (talk) 04:21, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it has been heated to liquify the fat which is separated, at least partially. User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Note This edit of Advanced meat recovery removes the section and information I'm referring to above, so that puts my argument in limbo. __meco (talk) 06:56, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Traditionally this type of meat, and where it's cut from, is informally referred to as "cows' lips and assholes". It's not really meat as we think of it, it's the last disgusting dregs of the remains of a smelly dead carcass. In its traditional processed form, we call it "hot dogs" and "luncheon meats". Ask anyone who works at a slaughterhouse. 75.62.128.148 (talk) 17:06, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

This type of meat comes from all different parts of the cow, not just 'lips and assholes'. The trimmings that are used are typically high fat around 70%, but BPI has purchase trimmings as low as 10% fat which are the same trimming used to make regular ground beef. They also make primal specific LFTB as well. So it would be hard to continue to refer to the trimmings as low grade or scrap when its not.67.212.109.85 (talk) 21:07, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

New question

Fact: NPOV is a pillar. Fact: "Pink slime" is POV. Fact: NPOV trumps WP:COMMONNAME (Note especially: This page explains in detail the considerations on which choices of article title are based. It is supplemented by other more specific guidelines (see the box to the right), which should be interpreted in conjunction with other policies, particularly the three core content policies: Verifiability, No original research and Neutral point of view.). Fact: this article title will be changed or redirected. So the question we really need to ask here is "What name shall we change this article to?". I suggest we list suggestions below. Remember, not changing this article's name is not an option. Editors opposing all suggestions are invited to either make a proposal for a title name of their own or their objections will be discounted accordingly. I realize this sounds a little blunt, but Wikipedia does not compromise on its pillars. Rklawton (talk) 22:39, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

From your own user page, "Ugly satisfies NPOV when it is true." Besides the WP:COMMONNAME issue, pink slime is in fact pink slime. Is it pink? Yes indeed. Is is slime? Yes indeed. We could invent some pedantically descriptive term like "disinfected beef gristle puree" but I doubt that would satisfy you. It's NPOV, but you might have difficulty seeing that if you don't like to admit the truth about this product. The product really does involve disinfection, beef gristle, and puree. In short, it's pink slime. It's most definitely not anything like the manufacturer euphemisms that are suggestive of chunks of steak like you'd use in fajitas, stew, kabobs, and stir-fry. NPOV terminology for something yucky will sound yucky. Anything less is an attempt to hide the yuck. 71.46.230.154 (talk) 00:20, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

"Pink slime" is a term only used by one side, that makes it POV. Even ABC News which broke the story acknowledges that it's the term is used by the "critics". Now go take your activism somewhere else. Rklawton (talk) 01:05, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

If a term is only used by one "side" or is used by critics, that doesn't necessarily make it POV and it certainly doesn't automatically disqualify the term as an article title. I believe that warning editors that their objections will be discounted is inappropriate here - editors are welcome to object to a move without proposing an alternative. I believe the applicable policy to consider is WP:POVTITLE which, in my mind, could be interpreted either way. The move discussion taking place above is active and is probably the best place to bring policy-based concerns. Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 02:27, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Both "Lean Finely Textured Beef" and "Boneless Lean Beef Trimmings" are terms only used by one side. No reasonable person would agree that those terms are honest descriptions of the product. Though obviously icky-sounding, "pink slime" is at least an honest description of the product. It's also unquestionably the common term. 208.118.18.229 (talk) 08:00, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Above it is said, "Is is slime? Yes indeed." I doubt that, my experience with such products is that they are gelatinous, as one sees in head cheese or souse, a meat jelly. User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:02, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

My opinion as an outsider who just saw this is that this article is and should be about pink slime, as defined by those who have coined the term. It may be that there should be an article about "lean beef trimmings", as defined by the industry, something which may have some overlap with pink slime. But inevitably there will also be differences between the two. We can't and shouldn't try to have one article about two categorizations of meat as defined by ideological opponents for opposing tactical advantages. That's not NPOV, it's just a nightmare. Make this article about "pink slime", but be clear about the disputed nature of the term (given sources, that is). Wnt (talk) 05:36, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Something like "Pink slime controversy" might work, but then we'd have to narrow the focus of the article to the fuss kicked up by ABC News (which is an obviously notable fuss and worthy of an article). As far as coining names goes, the product name (obviously) was create first. The name "pink slime" was applied to it years later. The question then arises, does "pink slime" refer to a specific product or to a process used to create products going under several different names. To answer that, we'd have to go back to the scientist who made up the name in the first place. Rklawton (talk) 20:51, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

"Pink Slime Controversy" would probably be the best description of this article since that seems to be the main focus of the article. Most of the sources on here are obviously bias along with many of the edits being made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.212.109.85 (talk) 21:14, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Apples and oranges

This article is about Pink Slime. What is Pink Slime? its not the actual name of a product but rather a name given to a product during a time of controversy. Its jargon that represents a specific event or series of events and articles accompanied by a media frenzy that brought the product in to the public eye. This article should be about the controversy and not tempt to draw conclusions about the product. We all understand that there are questions about the health and safety of this product.If the FDA and the USDA dont call it pink slime, then its not pink slime. Aperseghin (talk) 18:01, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh look -- another renaming thread. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:16, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes it is pink slime, because this isn't the Beef Products, FDA, USDA -pedia, it is an encyclopedia, this material is commonly known as pink slime and articles use the most popular and correct term.LuciferWildCat (talk) 00:27, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Well we are not about COMMON NAMES , we are about ACTUAL names — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aperseghin (talk • contribs) 13:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

COMMON NAME specifically prohibits POV article names even if they are the most common name. Rklawton (talk) 15:20, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

That is not true since pink slime is not a POV term, the product is pink and it has the consistency of slime, "pink beef gristle slime" would be .LuciferWildCat (talk) 23:41, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The moniker "pink slime" was coined nearly a decade ago. Ravenswing 08:58, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

The name LFTB was coined before that.67.212.109.85 (talk) 21:21, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Pink Slime is a POV term since it is meant to instill a sense of grossness to LFTB. The product it refers to as sold by BPI is not slimy since it is sold frozen. When thawed it is also less slimy then "regular" ground beef since it has less fat.67.212.109.85 (talk) 21:33, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Missing the point...

I feel like the article is missing the point of why those inside the food manufacturing community question this product.

It generally isn't a matter of safety. Protein rendered out of fat is clearly protein, that protein treated with ammonium hydroxide will have a low bacteria load, and ammonium hydroxide is generally recognized as safe with regards to being a food additive. Questioning the safety of LFTB is basically going to lead nowhere because the product is indeed safe - you aren't likely to get food poisoning from eating it.

Here are the real questionable aspects of LFTB:

1. Should this product be labeled as "meat"? For legal purposes "meat" is defined in 9 CFR 301 as "The part of the muscle of any cattle, sheep, swine, or goats which is skeletal or which is found in the tongue, diaphragm, heart, or esophagus...". LFTB is not generally skeletal muscle so it should not meet the definition of meat.

Pictures of the factory line seem to show skeletal trimmings. User:Fred Bauder Talk 02:57, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

1. Should this product by classified as a beef byproduct? It is almost identical to PDBT (Partially Defatted Beef Fatty Tissue) which is defined in 9 CFR 319.15(e).
2. Assuming it is a beef byproduct, should it be allowed in ground beef? "Ground beef" is defined in 9 CFR 319.15(a) and is not allowed to contain PDBT. Why is LFTB being treated differently? (Contrast with "beef patties" which are allowed to contain PDBT, for background here see page 6 of http://www.beeffoodservice.com/CMDocs/BFS/BeefU/BeefUFactSheets/09_PI-GroundBeef.pdf)
3. Why is LFTB (a rendered product) being allowed in ground beef while AMR separated beef (a separated product) is not? (For an interesting perspective here see http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/Comments/98-027R/98-027R-1.pdf)

Some would argue that political favoritism played a large part in all of the above. The issue isn't that LFTB is unsafe, the issue is that it is being treated and labeled by regulators as if it is "meat" when it should be treated as a byproduct. At the end of the day "meat" is a term that is supposed to be reserved for recognizable trimmings, not a slurry of rendered protein.

Another issue that is being overlooked by the article is the nutritional makeup of this product. While BPI likes to claim it is nutritionally the same as meat it clearly is not. One of the earliest controversies was whether this was closer to being meat or being connective tissue. The famous quote from Joann Smith was "it’s pink, therefore it’s meat" but that isn't what actual analysis shows. See http://www.exnet.iastate.edu/Pages/ansci/beefreports/asl-1361.pdf for an example - the protein in LFTB was close to 28% collagen (connective tissue), compared to the beef chuck control which was under 6% collagen.

Don't let this get dragged into a debate about "food safety" because that is missing the point. The real points to highlight are the regulatory exceptions made for this product and the nutritional differences between this product and meat. - Hoplon (talk) 00:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Hoplon above is correct.

In addition, the controversial aspects of Pink Slime include Truth in Labeling and Consumer Rights. Many major food retailers concluded years ago that Pink Slime was of insufficient quality to allow on their shelves. More recently, consumers who have learned the facts --of Pink Slime's origin (traditionally used as dog food), constituent parts (tissue close to hide & rectum, collagen, etc), production process (rendered & sterilized), legal restrictions (cannot be sold as a standalone product, only 15% additive without labeling) and widespread presence in supermarket/fast food products-- they reacted with rapid, widespread opposition.

Consumers prefer to know from a product label what they are buying. Beyond safety, some prefer not to eat certain parts of an animal, even when it's sterilized and mixed into ground-meat products. But consumers were never informed that Pink Slime constituted ANY part of the products they purchased even as individual product names (e.g. McDonald's hamburger, ground beef) stayed the same. They understandably felt deceived by the product manufacturers, government regulators and retailers. Pink Slime producers' reaction, a PR campaign asserting that their product is actually called "Lean Finely Textured Beef," merely reinforced consumers' conclusion that vested interest were concealing the truth about the true nature of Pink Slime in order to sell them something they would not knowingly choose to buy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Munguza (talk • contribs) 20:31, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Besides ground chuck, ground round, or even ground sirloin there is no label identify what parts of the cow are in ground beef. Where are the labels on hot dogs explaining what parts of the animals are included. I understand people needs/wants for product labeling but I think people understand that non primal specific ground beef is made up of many parts of the cow.67.212.109.85 (talk) 21:38, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Jobs Lost

WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
It should be noted that the jobs lost by the public rebellion against "pink slime" are no jobs at all, by American standards, even though they are located in the US: undocumented workers who have no social security, no unemployment insurance, no minimum wage, no overtime, no access to wages and hours courts, no workman's compensation, and so on - third world wage slaves. How shameful - all so the almighty consumer can get meat for a few pennies less a pound. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.245.254 (talk) 14:41, 30 March 2012 (UTC) Citation needed, please refrain from spouting off political nonsense. Aperseghin (talk) 16:52, 30 March 2012 (UTC) This is very much standard practice in the meat industry and is factual, let's find a good source for it.LuciferWildCat (talk) 23:38, 30 March 2012 (UTC) This is not factual at all. I have spoke with several current and former employees and none of them had issues with wages, most paid pretty well actually. Many were even on the news in support of the company. Its comments, like above, that make it hard believe that they are making edits NPOV when their personal views on here are anything but POV.67.212.109.85 (talk) 21:44, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Misleading footnote

The site linked to by the first instance of footnote number [3], which seeks to document the sentence, "It usually refers to low-grade beef trimmings from connective tissue, spinal, rectal, and other intestinal material," contains no reference to either spinal, rectal, or other intestinal material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack6128 (talk • contribs) 16:57, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The statement is true, just not cited by that footnote.LuciferWildCat (talk) 23:36, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The statement is not true since not spinal material is allow by USDA standards and BPI meets USDA standards. No intestinal material is there either since all internal organs are removed before any trimming is done. Connective tissue if present in the raw material before being process is separated out by machines de-sinewers that remove any sinew. Low-grade since they are little value to any other company with BPI's patented technology. I assume that's why no reference was made67.212.109.85 (talk) 21:50, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

pink slime

Mass content removal of sourced content is seriously a bad call, if there are editorial differences perhaps some some effort could be put into the article and reword things. I have just been trying to cleanup and help improve cohesion, layout, and references. But overzealous editor(s) have wiped it all out without reviewing it line item which is what should be done. A few points on what was removed in this edit...

Change.org

It has been signed by over a quarter million people and noted in the press and credited for the banning of PS by the supermarkets.

Cheap

Fillers are cheap and the product is routinely referred to as cheap or inexpensive and as such should be noted per the sources.

 Done. Two references have been added to the article, both of which denote the product as "cheap":

• Lorna Barrett (08-03-2012). "Consumer concerns about what's in ground beef". NewsNet5.com. Retrieved 31-03-2012. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)
• Jim Avila (08-03-2012). "Is Pink Slime in the Beef at Your Grocery Store?". ABC News. Retrieved 31-03-2012. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)

—Northamerica1000^(talk) 03:17, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Blocks

The product is not finished until it has been turned into flash frozen blocks, this it vital to illustrate the product but you removed it.

E Coli and Salmonella

These are the bacteria that it is ammonized for, it is more specific than just bacteria and helps illustrate the process better. This is a fact not a point of view.

15%

It should be noted that it can only be sold as filler and only 15% or less or else it would have to be labelled, this is cited.

Pet food/cooking oil

Originally that's what this was so we as an encyclopedia should report the history of pink slime as dog food grade meat.

Fecal matter

There is widespread disgust with this product, it is important to note that integument (hide) that is exposed to fecal matter is used in this product, this is cited not POV.

I have reworded to address both the concern that it should specify exactly what the citation says about pink slime and fecal matter and the grammar.LuciferWildCat (talk) 14:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Largest grocery chains

It has been banned by Safeway, Kroger, and Supervalue, they are the nation's largest grocery stores, this fact should not be removed.LuciferWildCat (talk) 13:17, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Zirnsten

The whistleblower's point of view is of interest as is the point of view of BPI, "fraud" and "not fresh" vs "beef is beef" and "wholesome", it should be brought up since this is controversial and we remain neutral by reporting the opposing viewpoints.

Salvage

It has been called salvage in this citation and we can't keep saying pink slime pink slime pink slime so a pronoun or equivalent is useful here.

AP review

It was reviewed for taste by the Associated Press a neutral party and very respected news organization, pink slime was said to have both pros and cons and it should be noted.

John Stewart

Most wikipedia articles will mention colbert/stewart/snl satire and the like, and in fact the phrase "ammonia soaked centrifuge separated byproduct paste" is probably the most technical and least bias of them all and makes for interesting filler

Supermarkets

This is a huge part of the controversy, most supermarkets in the United States wont sell it anymore, which ones and why is of note, some have continued and why is also important.

Supermarket, exhaustive list of stores

If every Wikipedia article that listed a major corporation listed all of its subsidiaries, Wikipedia would be very long-winded to read. Kroger, supervalu, and safeway have been identified as large distributes. Someone keeps adding the subsidiaries and the subsidiaries' subsidiaries and this is not needed as it uselessly clutters the article with non-relevant information.Rip-Saw (talk) 00:34, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

It's more important for interested readers to know which supermarkets do and do not sell pink slime, the parent company is not helpful. For instance in Los Angeles most people don't know if Vons or Ralphs is Kroger or Safeway and the explanation in the article is helpful as are the links. This is especially true since many supermarkets have similar names or sometimes the same name licensed to different LLC incarnations of the store in different markets. The content is sourced and is vital information showing the scope of the divestment. Clutter is only an issue of laying it out in an easy to read format but Wikipedia is not paper. I am not opposed to a link to footnotes stating which grocery stores, but I find it unnecessary.LuciferWildCat (talk) 01:47, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place for lists of ephemeral value and not of encyclopedia value. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:53, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

This is not a list. It is an encyclopedic report in proper sentences with proper citations of what grocery stores stopped selling pink slime and when. None of them have so far have started selling the slime again and as such any notion of ephemeralness is speculative. Furthermore it is not ephemeral because what they did at a particular time does not change. It is written well enough to explain that and it is not exactly an "exhaustive list" in the sense of "incessantly long" nor is it a list which is a topdown numbered 1 by X spreadsheet. Would you have us remove all mention of the markets that wont sell pink slime? Under your interpretation of what a list is, we should not mention it either, and that would be non-neutral. We must report all the important facts and a huge part of this is which grocery stores don't sell pink slime or have stopped. That is very much encyclopedic value. Also if it were a list of a temporary nature, that is exactly what an encyclopedia does, it keeps track of history. So you are wrong on all accounts.LuciferWildCat (talk) 04:49, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Single Purpose Accounts

I notice a sudden flood of pro-industry edits, some of them amounting to vandalism, by brand new single purpose accounts. I have warned one of them already. If this keeps up I am going to request semi-protection for the article. --MelanieN (talk) 15:07, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I've requested it -- enough already.. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:48, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Totally agree, fixing this vandalism took me a while.Rip-Saw (talk) 17:26, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I know some people have said that I am on an anti-pink slime jihad, but the truth is this non-neutral vandalism and bias is what has most attracted me to this article. If it would be reversed and only anti-pink slime content were being added with the opposite removed or contorted I would be equally zealous in adding the counter content and neutralizing the subject matter and would easily be accused of being on a pro slime jihad. However I am glad others have taken notice of the bias and vandalism that this article is being subjected to.LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:47, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

pink slime / puree

This line was removed "Pink slime resembles a beef-based puree and could best be described as a centrifuge separated beef paste." although unsourced it is a common sense explanation of what the product is and is supported by the sources and the images available. It helps the reader understand why someone would have coined the term pink slime and explain that the food matter is a viscous paste, a lot of ground beef is rather slimey anyways so I don't see the problem.LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:24, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

As you say, it's unsourced. Especially on controversial topics, we can't risk engaging in original research. Powers ^T 21:32, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Well it is not directly sourced but in any case we could combine the parts that say the end product resembles a paste and the fact that it is made in a centrifuge to create an illustrative definition of what the product is much in the same way a dictionary would, make sense?LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:37, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

LWC, could you please read the first paragraph and take note of the consequence of a recent edit of yours? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:35, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You are going to have to give me a diff more me to know what edit.LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:38, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh FFS -- just read the first paragraph. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:39, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know which "recent edit" you are talking about. I can easily read it but it is confusing if you mean the first sentence by recent edit as it is a redundant second clause. Correct me if I am wrong but to prevent any confusion diff(s) would be helpful. Please just clarify what you mean so that I can effectively be on the same page as you and respond accordingly. Something you have a pattern of not doing (User talk:Nomoskedasticity#3rr).LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:44, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You "re-added" some material that was already present, so now it's present twice ("It consists of..."). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:46, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Which material is that sir or madam? I can't talk to you if you make vague statements without a diff. I honestly don't know what you are talking about and you seem to ignore what I say and you don't respond directly. Will you provide a diff? Or will you just remain silent or let it go like you did when you offered to explain what you meant about the 3RR and then did not do so after I contacted you twice with questions about it and clearly continued to make comments to me here but ignored previous attempts at communication?LuciferWildCat (talk) 04:39, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Here you go, darling: [6] -- but someone else was already clever enough to discern the problem and to fix it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

File:LFTB (Pink slime).jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:LFTB (Pink slime).jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Other speedy deletions What should I do? Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Commons Undeletion Request To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:LFTB (Pink slime).jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Processed beef trimmings

How about "processed beef trimmings" for a title? This title avoids "lean" which implies lean red meat. User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

See WP:TITLECHANGES, which says "do not invent names as a means of compromising between opposing points of view." Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 15:52, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

How about we take this to the admin noticeboard as this title is a blatant violation of one of Wikipedia's pillars? Rklawton (talk) 16:42, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• I see no reason an agreement cannot be reached here in the article itself.LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Admins are not content arbiters. Any editor who happens to be an admin can participate here if they wish. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• The statement quoted is not the only relevant part of WP:TITLE. There is also WP:NDESC "In some cases a descriptive phrase is best as the title (e.g., Population of Canada by year). These are often invented specifically for articles, and should reflect a neutral point of view, rather than suggesting any editor's opinions. " So we have two contradictory rules in the same policy page-- which is not unusual, considering the way policy is written here by accretion. the solution is WP:IAR, that we select whatever option best promotes the fundamental purpose of NPOV. Everything considered, I like Fred Bauder's suggestion. We are here to do what is right, not to pick whatever rule suits our personal biases. DGG ( talk ) 23:00, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Changing to Fred Bauder's suggested "processed beef trimmings" would seem to be a particularly poor choice, introducing ambiguity into the article where none existed. That name gives the impression of being a technical term, ref. Advanced meat recovery#Products, yet it is invented by us. We already have real technical terms for this product, so why in the world would we want to go with an invented, ambiguous term? __meco (talk) 08:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Because several editors (including you) have rejected the use of those appropriate, real technical terms, and this was an attempt to find a middle ground. Since you now recognize that appropriate, real technical terms exist, why do you oppose moving the article to one of those titles? Horologium (talk) 11:44, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not arguing in favor of using any technical terms in favor of the most commonly used term, which appears to be pink slime, I'm simply stating that starting to invent new technical terms is a really bad idea. __meco (talk) 12:24, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Agree with DGG on selecting whatever option best promotes the fundamental purpose of NPOV and Fred Bauder on the name. IMO the current name brings WP into disrepute, a formal move request (without redirect) should be initiated as soon as. Mtking ^(edits) 01:42, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Historically speaking people refer to this topic as pink slime, anything else would bring us into disrepute by not automatically accepting the rarely used official company lingo.LuciferWildCat (talk) 02:34, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• It's not "trimmings". It's puree. It's not merely "beef" (which implies muscle tissue with perhaps a bit of fat) but beef gristle and Greaves_(food) to a large degree. As for being "processed", well obviously it is, but more accurately it is disinfected with ammonia or citric acid. So if we want to invent a term, "disinfected beef gristle puree" is about right. That said, this is pointless because "pink slime" is standard terminology. 71.46.230.154 (talk) 03:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• We are allowed to use our editorial judgement when describing something. "Processed beef trimmings" seems like a sensible alternative. AIRcorn (talk) 03:53, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Logic would say Animal by-products treated with ammonia gas as the actual nature of the item would be an NPOV title. In any case, however, "Pink Slime" as the common term would still be a redirect, making all of this not all that utile. Collect (talk) 14:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Not true; not all lean finely textured beef is treated with ammonia. Powers ^T 02:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I propose we call it by the industry standard name used by everyone I've ever known who worked at slaughterhouses: cows' lips and assholes. I would support a merger of "pink slime", "meat slurry", and all the variations of "lean yummy beef trimmings" into the overarching title: "COWS' LIPS AND ASSHOLES". 'Cuz that's what this stuff is. 75.62.128.148 (talk) 17:14, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

And lips, noses, peckers, and anuses should be thrown away? User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:56, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

There is such a thing as trimmings also. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:58, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• "Wikipedia describes current usage but cannot prescribe a particular usage or invent new names." Period. We don't get to invent neologisms just because there are a handful of editors who can't stand the common terms already in use. Ravenswing 19:22, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• There is no "period" after a policy which, if followed rigidly, can violate Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Our integrity is at issue here, and, so far, we fail. User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:38, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Such is your POV, at any rate. I think our integrity would be far more at risk were we in the habit of coining neologisms and weasel-wording so as to invent an appearance of "fair and balanced" not shared by the wide world. WP:V is, equally, a core content policy. Ravenswing

• Here's a couple of suggestions for a name, courtesy of Jon Stewart: "bovine velvet" or "ammonia soaked centrifuge separated byproduct paste". First one is yummy-sounding PR, second one is an all-too-accurate description of the product, take your pick. OK, I'm not serious. But Ravenswing above perfectly describes the situation. Wikipedia doesn't have to, and shouldn't, go out and invent some "neutral" term just because some people don't like the term that is in common use. --MelanieN (talk) 22:05, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose renaming to "Processed beef trimmings". If the article is to be renamed, Lean finely textured beef would be a very accurate and neutral title. Northamerica1000^(talk) 22:04, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

not prepared to call it that quote

I feel this quote and the following material should not be removed as it is key in the history of this controversy. I am not opposed to it being included outside the intro in whole and summarized in some way in the lead. It is all cited and that is not in question. What does everyone else think?LuciferWildCat (talk) 05:51, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Many consumers have stated a preference that products containing pink slime should be labeled as such, but a LFTB producer, Beef Products, Inc. (BPI), and meat industry organizations have stated that the product is already termed appropriately as "beef". When asking "what do you want us to label it" and the questioner stated "pink slime", a BPI representative said, "[we are] not prepared to label it pink slime". It was reported by ABC News that beef labeled as "USDA Organic" is comprised solely of meat without pink slime as filler.

The "not prepared to call it that" line is cited to three references, but I could not find this quote in any of the three. Could you please show me the actual reference where a BPI representative said this? If not I am going to remove it. --MelanieN (talk) 15:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I've added a reference from an ABC affiliate's website, and moved the other two references upwards, as they don't support the quote. Scopecreep (talk) 16:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I decided to put in the entire quote; we have had too much paraphrasing here. --MelanieN (talk) 16:18, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It is in the video of the news report from the main ABC quote attached to it. Can you see it?LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:27, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Loaded words

Look, folks, let's avoid loaded and POV words where there is a neutral alternative, unless they are in a direct quote. And let's not keep inserting such words everywhere, especially in the lead. Examples: "cheap" (say inexpensive), "low grade" (one time in the article is enough, where it is talking about the USDA). And let's stop inserting adjectives, which are automatically POV. Examples: "wholesome" and "nutritious" on the one side, "slimy" and "adulterated" on the other side. There are a few of us here who are trying very hard to keep this article neutral, and "neutral" means free of POV on EITHER side. --MelanieN (talk) 15:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Melanie, my edit was a properly cited direct quote from Omaha's newspaper, that's why it was in quotation marks. So I'm not sure why you removed it: "The ground beef additive is made from leftover fatty cuts of meat trimmings unfit for use in other products." http://www.omaha.com/article/20120401/NEWS01/704019880/31#q-amp-a-about-lean-finely-textured-beef Mojoworker (talk) 19:49, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

That's a great quote, I think maybe it just needs a great location.LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:28, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

There may well be a place for this quote somewhere in the article - but not in the lead. Personally I don't find it adds much to what's already in the article -- and I'm not impressed with the accuracy of that "Q&A" section from the Omaha World Herald. For example, it says the meat is treated with "ammonium gas" but there is no such thing. There is ammonia, a gaseous compound; and there is ammonium hydroxide, which you get when you mix ammonia with water. There is no such compound as "ammonium". --MelanieN (talk) 00:31, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 April 2012

To whom it may concern,

The page "pink slime" is entirely slanderous, and most of the information on this page is falsed and based on misinformation. As a constant user of Wikipedia, I would like to request that the page be changed. I refer to Wikipedia to find factual information from credible sources, and this page is merely a regurgitation of someone else's opinion. Please help make the changes. Pink slime is a slanderous word only meant to scare consumers, and the term is costing American jobs. Please, either remove the page, or talk about what Pink Slime actually is.

Thank you,

Chuck

66.172.199.26 (talk) 18:52, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Not going to happen. If you think there is slander here, then your beef is with the sources being used to support the text written by the editors working on this page. If you want to sue the various newspapers, etc., go ahead -- but I suggest that you not suggest or imply that you intend to sue Wikipedia. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:01, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

There was no legal threat, what are you talking about? — Bility (talk) 20:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Are you not familiar with the tort of slander? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:13, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. — Bility (talk) 20:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

National Consumers League

The National Consumers League issued a press release March 28, about "Lean Finely Textured Beef", which seems very supportative BPI and its CEO, Eldon Roth. I would like to add some of this material to the article. Is there any reason to suspect that National Consumers League is not a reliable source?

A sudden press release during a controversy does not seem like a reliable source to me.LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:57, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

The Washington Post article from June 12, 2008, also seems to praise BPI for its work making beef safer. This source is already a reference in the article. Should more of this material be added to the article? Is this source reliable?

I would like the article to be NPOV. Wikfr (talk) 20:44, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

"praise BPI for its work making beef safer" -- not obviously relevant to Pink slime -- perhaps it's relevant to the article on BPI? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:48, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Include in the BPI article I say.LuciferWildCat (talk) 21:57, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested move from Pink slime to Boneless lean beef trimmings

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved. Nine editors have voiced support for a move, generally asserting that the current title is POV; fourteen editors have voiced opposition for a move, citing WP:COMMONNAME and asserting that the proposed move target is POV. There is clearly no consensus to move this article to the proposed title. Extensive discussion has not resulted in any broad shifting of views, and appears unlikely to do so, particularly in light of the continuing range of mass media articles and television segments identifying the subject by the current title. bd2412 T 02:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

---

Pink slime → Boneless lean beef trimmings – Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 22:48, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support per the previous discussion. "Pink slime" is WP:JARGON and there are many things that are pink slime, including toy products. "boneless lean beef trimmings" is descriptive, and backed up by reliable sources that have existed for many years, as indicated in the previous RM discussion. 70.24.244.198 (talk) 03:18, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment it appears the previous discussion has a consensus to have the article at "boneless lean beef trimmings" 70.24.244.198 (talk) 03:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support; "pink slime" is a neologism, potentially ambiguous, and not encyclopedic. Powers ^T 13:52, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

The proposed alternative is ambiguous. It could mean stew meat. This is in fact purposeful confusion that Wikipedia should not propagate. 71.46.230.154 (talk) 02:48, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

There is no reason an article title can't be a neologism, but seeing as it was coined in 2002, it's hardly new anyhow. You say that it's potentially ambiguous and not encyclopedic, but don't indicate why it wouldn't be encyclopedic or how it might be ambiguous. Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 00:51, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

There's no age limit on neologisms; even a ten-year-old term can be a neologism if it's only recently come into public consciousness. WP:NEOLOGISM doesn't prohibit neologisms as article names, but it does discourage them. It's potentially ambiguous because there are many other things that are pink and slimy; it's unencyclopedic because it's a slang term being used for negative emotional effect rather than a term actually used by specialists in the field. Powers ^T 17:23, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for elaborating. WP:NEOLOGISM does discourage articles on neologisms, but doesn't say anything about using neologisms as article titles. WP:TITLE is also quiet on neologisms. I don't see any evidence that the term is being used for negative emotional effect though. Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 02:49, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose move per WP:COMMONNAME, which states "The term most typically used in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms." Boneless lean beef trimmings is industry terminology and doesn't convey the primary distinguishing factor of the product - that it is treated with ammonia. I would support a move to Ammoniated beef trimmings or something similar. Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 00:12, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
  • So you oppose based on COMMONNAME, but then would support a title that isn't used in any reliable sources? Powers ^T 00:19, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Most of the reliable sources that I've seen refer to it as pink slime, including those used as references in the article. Reuters, ABC News, AP, Los Angeles Times, New York Times, NPR, Salt Lake Tribune, Chicago Tribune, and USA Today are all reliable sources and they all refer to it as pink slime. Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 00:41, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, they refer to it as "'pink slime'", with quotation marks. That's a strong indication that it's a neologism. But anyway, I wasn't talking about "pink slime", I was talking about "ammoniated beef trimmings" which you said you supported. Powers ^T 17:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see. You're right that we should use a title used in reliable sources. I've struck that part of my comment, but I'd support a middle ground type of term, if it existed. Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 22:25, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose move per WP:COMMONNAME, plus the proposed alternative being purely public relations marketing nonsense. The proposed alternative isn't even standard; the industry uses several names which all sound like chunks of meat larger than ground beef. (company-specific trademarks?) If we did want something more descriptive, "disinfected beef gristle puree" would be about right. BTW, it is very important to remember that paid PR people are out in force for this one. It wouldn't surprise me if more than half of the people editing this article are being paid to solve what may be an existential crisis for the companies involved. 71.46.230.154 (talk) 02:29, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• This matter has been mentioned on the Facebook page, Corporate Representatives for Ethical Wikipedia Engagement but so far as I know, no one representing the company that makes the product has tried to edit the article. This is about our integrity, not about paid or conflict of interest editing. User:Fred Bauder Talk 18:49, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose move per WP:COMMONNAME, if we have to choose between an industry propaganda term and the commonly-used slang for the substance. Google hits alone aren't sufficient grounds for keeping an incorrect name, but it's still worth noting that there are 3,780,000 Google hits for "pink slime" vs 206,000 results for "Boneless lean beef trimmings". Scopecreep (talk) 12:33, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support "pink slime" is hopelessly point of view. User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:40, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

But isn't "Boneless lean beef trimmings" also POV? It is vague industry terminology that is arguably being used to whitewash. WP:TITLECHANGES says that "Editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged." The policy goes on to say that if "no consensus can be reached on what the title should be, default to the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub." Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 02:58, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support renaming to something that isn't blatant POV. Rklawton (talk) 15:24, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment Common Name is a policy - but NPOV is one of the five pillars of Wikipedia. It's obvious we must choose Pillar over Policy when the two conflict. Rklawton (talk) 15:35, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment Agreed that something less POV than "pink slime" is needed, but this proposal is for "Boneless lean beef trimmings", which implies that it's some nice, cut-up beef, so both titles are POV. A new name needs to be proposed that doesn't propagandize for or against, and is in actual use somewhere. I haven't thought of one found one yet, but if someone here could, then I'd support a rename to that. Scopecreep (talk) 16:57, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. We should use the term that is commonly used, not the sanitized technical term which is less used. __meco (talk) 16:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Do you have evidence that "pink slime" is actually more commonly used in reliable sources than the actual technical term? Powers ^T 17:23, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Weak oppose per Scopecreep. It would be nice if there were a name that wasn't a pejorative or euphemism, but in the absence of such a word, majority rules. --BDD (talk) 19:03, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Weak oppose Although the title falls under common name protection, it is a colloquial name. I also support that "pink slime" is neologic in nature. That being said, I do not feel like any other name for this article would qualify as neutral and jargon free. This is one of those cases where Wikipedia should come up with its own term to use as a name for the article, one that is both neutral and technically accurate; policy does not support such actions, however. Rip-Saw (talk) 19:33, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment If you read all the academic literature, all the technical manuals, etc., you'll see that the actual WP:COMMONNAME is Lean Finely Textured Beef. Pink Slime may have been coined in 2002, but it wasn't commonly used to identify the substance until recent media coverage. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 21:50, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment A picture is worth a thousand words, so...

  File:Stewmeat.jpg

  the intended mental image of "boneless lean beef trimmings"

  71.46.230.154 (talk) 00:30, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Evidence, please? Those are clearly not "trimmings". Powers ^T 02:39, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
    • They look like "trimmings" to me. Pink slime does not look like "trimmings" at all. In a thesaurus, you won't find "trimmings" as a legitimate synonym for puree. 208.118.18.229 (talk) 07:47, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

This article has a file photo of pink slime as provided by Beef Products, Inc. The image on the right is just stew meat. Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 03:04, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I think that is exactly the point: the euphemism is designed to make people think they are getting ground up stew meat. 208.118.18.229 (talk) 07:47, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Claiming the term was "designed" to deceive seems to be drifting into the realm of conspiracy though. That attitude seems to be more indicative of lack of education rather than a conspiracy being true. With even a little background in beef cuts from our own farm, I definitely don't think of nice chunks of stew when I hear boneless lean beef trimming. The focus on "trimming" is more indicative of small pieces of meat separated from fat that wouldn't otherwise be used. One issue could be that people use the term to describe the end product, when it's actually better at describing the process the meat has undergone. Maybe that's where the confusion comes up for folks not as familiar with meat processing? Kingofaces42 (talk) 23:36, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Then you have no conception of what "trimmings" are. Those are clearly large chunks of intact meat cut to a specific size. Trimmings are leftover pieces, the remnants of the process that produced the chunks in your photo. (And the fact that the trimmings are later "pureed" is irrelevant to whether they were trimmings to begin with.) Powers ^T 19:54, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support The term "pink slime" is WP:JARGON and WP:ACTIVIST, and definitey is not WP:NPOV. It's a perjorative used in activist propaganda. The actual name of the product is the only proper title for this article. Alternatively, I'd support redirecting to "advanced meat recovery," per discussion below, with a new section in that article titled "pink slime controversy" or something of the like. Wikophile (talk) 17:11, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support move to almost any other title. While recognizable, it's not in any way an appropriate term. Horologium (talk) 17:53, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose, per Scopecreep, in this Hobson's choice. I would also agree generally that euphemistic names like "lean finely textured beef" are non-NPOV. Maybe "pureed and sterilized beef scraps" would be neutral?... "Pink slime" seems to be it at this point, per WP:COMMONNAME. ENeville (talk) 17:58, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment If you are going to cite Common Name, then you must change your vote to support because Common Name very specifically excludes POV titles. Rklawton (talk) 18:03, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support move It doesn't have to be this title, but the current one is not Neutral. Having a neutral article (especially a title, which is the first thing many see) trumps Commonname. Particularly when it is the result of media sensationalism. We should be better than that here. On top of that "Pink Slime" is ambiguous, wheras "Boneless lean beef trimmings" is not. AIRcorn (talk) 22:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
  • If anything, "Boneless lean beef trimmings" is more ambiguous. It's an obscure phrase that intentionally sounds like chunks of meat suitable for stew, stir-fry, fajitas, and kabobs. The "pink slime" term by itself, ignoring the now well-known meaning, does not suggest anything incorrect. No false expectations are created. 71.46.230.154 (talk) 02:48, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
    • Then change it to something else ("Processed beef trimmings" mentioned below would be fine). To me pink slime suggests some kind of colourful mould or algae. AIRcorn (talk) 03:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose -- impeccably neutral sources use this name, and we should follow what is in the best sources. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose: A COMMONNAME issue, pure and simple; I wager that the number of Google hits for "pink slime" outnumbers all the other monikers combined by a wide margin. Nor do I remotely swallow the "neutral POV" argument. For one thing, a "boneless lean beef trimmings" or other such euphemistic name is scarcely "neutral," since it caters to the meat industry's party line in this matter. For another, "pink slime" was not coined by opponents of the substance, but by the industry itself; if the industry's PR flacks now regret it, that is not our problem.

Ravenswing 03:36, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment According to that logic, the title of the article should then be "Pink Slime". The number of hits in google using scare quotes exceeds the number not. Rip-Saw (talk) 02:01, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Reply: That's not only a defensible usage, it would address the NPOV concerns. Ravenswing 08:59, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Not ready to !vote yet, but I would like to point out that the best way to avoid having your product labeled as "pink slime" would probably be to make a product that isn't composed of bits of spinal cord/misc protein/etc that resembles pink slime. What ever we end up with as the title, this stuff is gross on so many levels. I'm leaning towards opposing right now but I'm going to put some thought into it and see if I can come up with an alternative proposal. SÆdon^talk 03:49, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment The vast majority of sources that use Pink slime do so within Scare quotes. That either means that they agree it is a misnomer or more likely that they want to distance themselves from the name. Not something strong to base commonname on. AIRcorn (talk) 04:24, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oposed - per WP:COMMONNAME. BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:35, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose this move, but could be convinced that there's a better title out there. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:35, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose because this product is not a trimming. It is produced through a rendering process, not a trimming process. It would be almost as inaccurate as calling lard a trimming. - Hoplon (talk) 00:12, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Common name at this point in time is very clearly pink slime and that is what we base our titles around. Silverseren^C 03:15, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
• Common Name specifically PROHIBITS the use of POV article names even if they would otherwise qualify as the common name. Those of you citing Common Name as the only reason for "Oppose" should accordingly change your votes to Support per Common Name. Rklawton (talk) 15:25, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I didn't cite Commonname myself, but even so: whether an article name is POV is a matter of opinion and thus consensus. Your comment is fine as a suggested response, but it doesn't mean others' views are somehow invalid. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:19, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
    • It's a term created by an opponent of the process and used by critics. That makes it POV. What the beef industry calls “lean finely textured beef” (LFTB) and critics call “pink slime” is a filler byproduct that is made by running scraps from meat cuttings through a processor that removes the fat from the trimmings. The beef is usually treated with ammonia to kill bacteria such as E. Coli and salmonella, a process that has been a subject of suspicion and debate despite claims that it is harmless.[7] And, of course, it's obvious to any casual reader that it's POV. Lastly, there won't be a consensus when activists and new users are involved in blocking it - citing a policy they obviously haven't read. Remember, NPOV isn't just policy, it's a pillar, and it's only a matter of time before a journalist pillories Wikipedia for its activism. Rklawton (talk) 17:03, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• • I do not believe it is POV. It is the common name that is known by the people of the US (and likely the world) for the subject. It has become the common vernacular for the topic. Even if it was POV in the past, it has become a normal word now that is a part of common culture and that cannot be changed. So common name dictates that we follow the name that it is known as. Silverseren^C 20:00, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
    • The thing is, we've got sources that specifically say it's a term used by one side. You have no sources that say it's neutral. Common Name specifically forbids POV article titles. In short, your opinion isn't based on Reliable Sources and that's contrary to how Wikipedia operates. We don't edit based on people's opinions, we edite based on reliable, verifiable sources, and we do it in a neutral way. This article's title clearly represents only one side and runs against Wikipedia's core principles. If all you've got is "your opinion" - then you have no basis at all for keeping this name. Rklawton (talk) 20:43, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
      • "Pink slime" is the more common name for what industry insiders call "lean finely textured beef." Silverseren^C 21:09, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - Wikipedia is not the place to debate or attempt to legislate events in the United States or anywhere else. The title "pink slime" is clearly a common term used by an overwhelming amount of coverage for this topic, and should therefore remain the title of this article.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:28, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose In this case, the common nickname "pink slime" is so widely used by Reliable Sources that it is the obvious title for this article. The industry name has no usage or name recognition outside of the industry itself. --MelanieN (talk) 14:45, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose: Either choice is POV: Obviously there is no neutral term to describe this phenomenon. In this case, we should opt for the more common term. --RJFF (talk) 18:00, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose – The article title is specific to how numerous reliable sources refer to the topic, as "pink slime." Additionally, per WP:COMMONNAME, a Wikipedia policy, the article's title is correct per Wikipedia's standards. Northamerica1000^(talk) 23:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment I have added both of the industry's preferred names in bold to the lead sentence -- and the industry term (the proposed target of this move) is already a redirect to this article, so it will seamlessly bring any searchers for that (rather unlikely IMO) search term to the article. I submit that this gives enough recognition to the industry's preferred usage. IMO we should quit haggling about what to call the article and work instead on improving it and keeping it neutral. --MelanieN (talk) 23:54, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support Move Just because it is a common term doesn't mean it is the correct term. Since the media has shown bias in using the term 'Pink Slime' and has been the driving force behind its name doesn't make it right. At best its a derogatory term that couldn't be more POV. Some media outlets have even started to say 'what critics call pink slime'. This also shows a shifting tide in the perception of proper terminology. Also more credible scientist and educators refer do to it as LFTB. Simply redirecting BLBT and LFTB to this article only adds to its bias nature. Also BLBT and LFTB are 2 different products by industry standards that should be clarified. BLBT is produced without ammonia while LFTB is produced with ammonia.67.212.109.85 (talk) 20:19, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
• Comment I don't mind what the article is called, but I feel the article contains too many repetitions of pink slime, which is derogatory, slang, imprecise, and seems to violate NPOV.
• Comment: With consensus going strongly against any such page move, it's starting to look a lot like WP:SNOW ... Ravenswing 01:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.