Talk:Pool (cue sports)

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History is seriously lacking[edit]

Unresolved: Still needs work in this area 3 years later.

This article is lacking information on the origins and progression of pool. Can anyone add to this and improve the history section? --Bodybagger (talk) 04:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The History of pool game(cue sport) is related to Nerbudda Club Jabalpur(Narmada Club) a city in the heart of India.

It is commonly accepted that snooker originated in the latter half of the 19th century. Billiards had been a popular activity amongst British Army officers stationed in India, and variations on the more traditional billiard games were devised. One variation, devised in the officers' mess in Jabalpur during 1874 or 1875, was to add coloured balls in addition to the reds and black which were used for pyramid pool and life pool. The word snooker also has military origins, being a slang term for first-year cadets or inexperienced personnel. One version of events states that Colonel Sir Neville Chamberlain of the Devonshire regiment was playing this new game when his opponent failed to pot a ball and Chamberlain called him a snooker. It thus became attached to the billiards game now bearing its name as inexperienced players were labelled as snookers. The game of snooker grew in the latter half of the 19th century and the early 20th century, and by 1927 the first World Snooker Championship had been organised by Joe Davis who, as a professional English billiards and snooker player, moved the game from a pastime activity into a more professional sphere. Joe Davis won every world championship until 1946 when he retired. The game went into a decline through the 1950s and 1960s with little interest generated outside of those who played. In 1959, Davis introduced a variation of the game, known as Snooker Plus, to try to improve the game's popularity by adding two extra colours. However, it never caught on. A major advance occurred in 1969, when David Attenborough who was then a top official of the BBC, commissioned the snooker tournament Pot Black to demonstrate the potential of colour television, with the green table and multi-coloured balls being ideal for showing off the advantages of colour broadcasting. The TV series became a ratings success and was for a time the second most popular show on BBC Two. Interest in the game increased and the 1978 World Championship was the first to be fully televised. The game quickly became a mainstream sport in the UK, Ireland and much of the Commonwealth and has enjoyed much success in the last 30 years, with most of the ranking tournaments being televised. In 1985 a total of 18.5 million viewers watched the concluding frame of the world championship final between Dennis Taylor and Steve Davis. In recent years the loss of tobacco sponsorship has led to a decrease in the number of professional tournaments, although some new sponsors have been sourced; and the popularity of the game in the Far East and China, with emerging talents such as Liang Wenbo and more established players such as Ding Junhui and Marco Fu, bodes well for the future of the sport in that part of the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abhishekmishra.tarun (talkcontribs) 00:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Contradictory and unfocused[edit]

Unresolved: Confusing wording in lead fixed, but lead is still too thin, and does not summarize article.

I think this article is a mess. Take for example the very first sentence:

"Pocket billiards, most commonly referred to as pool, is the general term for a family of games played on a specific class of billiards table, having 6 receptacles called pockets (or "holes") along the rails, in which balls are deposited as the main goal of play."

Either pool is a synonym for Pocket Billiards or Pocket Billiards is the name of a family of games played on a table with 6 pockets which including English billiards and snooker, but it if the latter then, it is not pool because no one calls English billiard and snooker pool. The confusion is reinforced by the sentence "Cue sports that are played on pocketless tables are generally referred to as carom billiards."

I propose that we alter the lead to read:

Pocket billiards, most commonly referred to as pool, is the general term for a family of games played on a pocket billiards table (or pool table), having 6 receptacles called pockets (or "holes") along the rails, in which balls are deposited as the main goal of play.
+another paragraph which briefly sums up the article.

--PBS (talk) 11:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

"Sorry I still have a problem with the phrase 'most commonly' I really think some notion of geographical usage needs to be highlighted, seriously I know all these points have been addressed before, but anyone coming to the UK and asking for a game of pocket billiards will get a serious surprise (if they expected to play pool), or may even start a fight !!!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeShaw (talkcontribs) 18:23, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
That objection is like saying that Buttocks should be moved to Arse. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō Contribs. 20:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Source[edit]

A comprehensive history of the sport was published by Snap Magazine in its January/February, 1991 History Issue. -- Guzanglethorp (talk · contribs), 16:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

For a previous requests see Archive 1: Requested move and Undo move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: do not rename.--Mike Selinker (talk) 20:59, 15 January 2011 (UTC) Mike Selinker (talk) 20:59, 15 January 2011 (UTC)


Pool (cue sports)Pocket billiards — "Pocket billiards" is an industry-standard term and has been for around a century now (see sources cited at the CfD mentioned below). Keeping this article unnecessarily disambiguated as Pool (cue sports) is almost certainly going to lead to the relevant category, Category:Pool, which really should be Category:Pocket billiards, moved to Category:Pool (cue sports), judging from the direction that this CfD is taking (against the naming conventions, actually, but that's another story, which I also cover in detail at the CfD, the summary being that category and article naming conventions differ). A long-winded, disambiguated category name like that is "user-hateful" (and editor-hateful, for that matter). The simplest way out of this mess is to use the industry-standard term rather than the vernacular, since it is recognized, sourceable (sourced, actually, by me at the CfD), and not ambiguous. WP:COMMON only applies when it doesn't cause problems, and its application here is definitely causing problems. The actual applicability of WP:COMMON is questionable anyway; the vernacular term is not always the preferable article title (cf. Vagina/Penis/Breast/Buttocks vs. a very large number of vernacular words many of which are far more common than these, or Category:Flying disc vs. Category:Frisbee and a thousand other examples. I let this particular matter drop over a year ago, but the CfD forces the issue back open again in a new light. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō Contribs. 20:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

  • Support If there is a non-parenthetical article title, that clearly identifies the subject of the article, than it should be prefed over the parenthetical version. Armbrust Talk Contribs 23:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: "For the record", as they say, please note that Armbrust was the nominator of the CfD mentioned above. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō Contribs. 05:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: As I already noted above, WP:COMMON does not trump all other considerations. This is a case where it doesn't. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō Contribs. 05:20, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
    • COMMONNAME does not trump all other principles. But the burden is to show what advantage ignoring it would have, since it is a cost to give an article an uncommon title; the only argument so far is that it is analogous to using Vagina, which we do not see; pool has four letters - but it is not an obscenity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:49, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose I'm not a big pool/billiards player myself but I've never heard it referred to as pocket billiards in common speech. Pool will undoubtedly be the most common search term. Pool is a currently disambiguation, and this arrangement doesn't seem to be causing any issue. With the current method searchers are obviously finding the content they are seeking. I am not convinced that the proposed title will make it easier for users to find the content.--Labattblueboy (talk) 06:58, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose I am a pool player and I've never heard it called that either, and I'm completely sure that the vast majority of pool players in the UK would say the same thing. I've heard the term "pocket billiards" but didn't even realise it referred to the same thing. "Pocket billiards" is clearly a regionalism, and the article should remain at a name recognisable to the majority of our readers. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:27, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per Pmanderson - you need a good reason to override WP:COMMONNAME (like vulgarity, which does not apply here). I also disagree that lack of parentheses is a good reason to use a less common name when the most common name needs to be disambiguated with parentheses. Also per Black Kite - "pocket billiards" is a regionalism. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:32, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose Pocket billiards has a totally different meaning here in the United Kingdom, where it refers to playing with your testicles while keeping your hands in the pockets of your trousers! Skinsmoke (talk) 01:56, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

According to the OED, both pool and pocket billiards are originally American terms (for originally American games). Pocket billiards has been around since 1910; pool has been around since 1797, and is quoted from 1992 and 2003. It is the standard, normal, and encyclopedic term; I see no necessity to flee to a euphemism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

OED[edit]

So that I did not copy too much text into the article I have written "and its other specific definitions are all for games that originate in the United States of America" Here is the rest of the text from the OED:

The OED list the following collective nouns relating to pool billiards: pool hall, pool joint, pool parlour, pool player, pool shooter and pool table.

--PBS (talk) 09:08, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Swap some of text with this article and Cue sports[edit]

Thanks to a quirk of editing history, we have a detailed description of pool games in the general article sports#Games played on a pool table and a far less detailed description in (cue sports)#Game types. So I am going to swap the two section. -- PBS (talk) 16:14, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Pool[edit]

I am removing some of the text from the history section of the article that has had citation needed since November last year. The Oxford English dictionary lists the billiards game of pool under a heading called: pool, n.3. The etymology section says "French poule collective stakes in a game (1665, with reference to the card game reversis; now especially in billards (1832), also in betting (1856, originally on horses)), of uncertain origin, perhaps a transferred use of poule hen ... perhaps with allusion to contemporary collocations or proverbs ..."

There are three entries under pool, n.3:

  • I. Senses relating to games, sport, and betting.
    • 1. Cards.
    • a. A game, hand, or round in which there is a collective stake to be won....
    • b. The collective stakes put forward by players in a game, hand, or round; the kitty, the pot.
    • 2. Any of various types of billiards for two or more players [the original game being on] in which each player uses a cue ball of a distinctive colour to pocket the balls of the other player(s) in a certain order, the winner taking all the stakes submitted at the start of the contest.
    • 3. Shooting. A contest in which each competitor pays a certain sum for every shot he or she fires, the proceeds being divided among the winners.
    • 4. Betting.
      • a. The collective stakes bet on the competitors in a contest, the proceeds being divided among the backers of the winner

There are a number of others including the British football pools, but all of them seem to involved people pooling a money into a pot with the winner taking it.

The first reference the OED has for Pool billiards is: 1797 Alexandria (Virginia) Advertiser 21 Oct. 4/4 (advt.) "Any gentlemen wishing to play the Game of Pool, can be accommodated with Balls for the purpose".

According to the OED this pre-dates the pool betting on horses usage by 60 years so the current text in the article

"due to perhaps an association with the poolrooms where gamblers pooled their money to bet off-track on horse races. Because these venues often provided billiard tables, the term pool eventually became synonymous with billiards."

for which there is no citation seems to be speculative and so I intend to remove it.

The article also says:

"As the traditional view of billiards as a refined and noble pastime did not blend well with the low-class connotations of gambling, the billiards industry began to distance itself from the term pool beginning in the late 19th century."

Again this is speculation without a source. For example traditionally in Britain gambling was also a gentleman's pastime and a gentleman was expected to pay his gambling debts before he paid his tailor! So I am going to remove the un-cited speculation. -- PBS (talk) 19:24, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Equipment section[edit]

Equipment section is missing a lot of dimensions. Seems like someone went through and deleted the numbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.227.78 (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2012 (UTC)