Talk:Taiwan

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Former good article Taiwan was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Stock post message.svg Taiwan Article Guidelines


The following guidelines have been established by consensus and convention:

  1. Simplified Chinese shall remain in the linguistics infobox per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language)#Simplified and Traditional
  2. Please do not add Simplified characters and tongyong pinyin to the country infobox.
  3. Please refrain from adding "(Taiwan)" all over the article as this article includes substantial information about the Republic of China prior to the Republic of China on Taiwan/Taiwan post-war era.
edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Taiwan:
  • Improve article based on feature article review
  • Add a short section about the culture and the geography of the ROC territories (with links to the main articles)
  • Review alt text of images
  • Should the role and influence of Sun Yat-sen be introduced in the History section?

Naming issues[edit]

John Smith's mentioned about the name and referred to Myanmar. JS seemed to think Burma is better known than Myanmar and so the former should be used. I disagree. This is a quasi encyclopedia. It's about sharing knowledge, not misinformation. We know what that country's name is. We should use it. There is no Burma any more. There is still a Republic of China and my point about the ridiculousness of discussing a Taiwan army during WW2 hasn't been addressed. Instead some one said that they went to the lengths of creating a separate article for the ROC for an earlier period....Now that isn't logical. We don't do that for other countries. Frenchmalawi (talk) 14:49, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Please, have consideration for the productivity of this. The only concern of many of these people here is to blindly follow the press and what they deem to be reliable sources. Until the press changes its habits or reunification rightfully occurs, no discussion on the naming of this page will lead anywhere. Enough is enough."My master, Annatar the Great, bids thee welcome!" 17:31, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
It was a process of discussion and deliberation that led to the recent change to rename this article "Taiwan" from ROC where it had been for years. So we can talk about "Taiwan during WW2" etc. (clarity there etc?). So yes, I have consideration for the productivity of this sort of discussion. It produced a major change recently. No good reason a similar discussion couldn't result with a change back. Any way, final thought: "productivity" evokes thoughts of something like a factory. Frenchmalawi (talk) 01:53, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Wouldn't we handle it something like how we handle Turkey during World War I? Simply state that at that time the state now called Taiwan was known as the Republic of China and use that name in those sections. --Khajidha (talk) 14:32, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Frenchmalawi, it is basically wrong to mix these two concepts. 1. Taiwan is just part of ROC, there are many islands are still under control of ROC. 2. ROC has never given up their rights for mainland. 3. Ironically, based on ROC's constitution, its capital is still Nan Jing. 4. If you could check Chinese version ROC page and Taiwan page, you would find out how much different they are. The truth is out there, Taiwan is a samll island, never was and never to be a country. --WWWXXX(talk) 00:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
A consensus here, WP:COMMONAME, and masses of people all around the world disagree with you. HiLo48 (talk) 08:06, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
As the old saying goes, what happens on Chinese wikipedia stays on Chinese wikipedia. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 09:00, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 13 August 2014[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (SNOW) Armbrust The Homunculus 16:43, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


TaiwanRepublic of China – Because Taiwan has not always been the same as ROC, even though it now is Mistakefinder (talk) 10:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Reason: This article states that the country is officially Republic of China, which is true, but not true for most of its history. The way the article is now, a reader would likely be misled, by quick reading or just glancing table of contents thinking Taiwan just IS officially called ROC. The history subheading does not clearly indicate take over in 1945 as a distinct start of administration. The ROC should be its own article with Taiwan being a distinct topic, or otherwise should be a redirect to ROC article since it's not a "real" name for the country but an AKA alias, other than the island itself. Also I'm proposing the Republic of China (1912–1949) to be merged to Republic of China. See related discussion at Talk:Republic of China (1912–49)#Merger proposal. This way, Taiwan can have its own article describing the various histories, rulers, and geography apart of ROC. Taiwan Island which now redirects to Geography of Taiwan doesn't make much sense. It should include all relevant info, history and governance as well, except the details of government should be taken to the ROC article (under subheading in History -- Rule on Taiwan) covering 1945 onward. Mistakefinder (talk) 11:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
  • oppose, per the previous consensus at Talk:Taiwan/Archive 20, in particular our policy on common names. The rationale given actually supports the current arrangement. Yes, the Republic of China is commonly called Taiwan now, hence it redirects to it. What it was in the past is part of its history, covered here, in History of Taiwan, and in articles on particular areas of its history.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 11:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Request the proposal be immediately rescinded by original poster - No decision on Wikipedia is final, but the decision to have this article be move to the title "Taiwan" was perhaps the most thoroughly discussed move in WP history. There was careful arbitration, requests for comments, and the entire community was involved. The move was not done suddenly or carelessly and it was the result of years of continued discussion. I don't expect you to read the entire discussion since it is incredibly long, but please look at Talk:Taiwan/Archive 20 and read some of the Final Closing Statement at the top of the page endorsed by three impartial admins. You are welcome to reopen any discussion, but please only do so if you think that you have information which is likely to alter the existing consensus. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 11:11, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME. -- GoodDay (talk) 02:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose, it is the Common name, and the history and geography described in the article is not tied to the current official name. - WPGA2345 - 01:44, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

I will look at that archive you guys suggested. Could you also look at the Merge proposal at Talk:Republic of China (1912–49)#Merge into Republic of China article?? It's related to the contents of that one and this one. Thanks! Mistakefinder (talk) 12:29, 13 August 2014 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Official name of government[edit]

While dealing with a nationalist vandal who obviously cannot touch this page because of its semi-protection, but has had no issue with futzing up Taipei (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), he seems to assert that the official name of this nation is "Republic of China (Taiwan)" with the parenthetical/disambiguator, because he sees its usage on the website of the President and it's embassies (also seen at File:Taiwanese_Embassy_in_Mbabane.JPG). Does his argument hold any weight as to what this country is called or is he just full of bullshit?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

There have been many discussions. WP:COMMONNAME won the day. It's Taiwan. HiLo48 (talk) 01:39, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes but is the official name of the nation "Republic of China (Taiwan)" as he is insisting along with his accusations that I'm a PRC nationalist vandal?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:43, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
No idea about the official name. Most people neither know nor care about the official name of most countries. But the allegations are normal. All of us who argued for the name Taiwan for this article had such allegations thrown at us. HiLo48 (talk) 01:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Then could you back me up and tell him to shut the fuck up? He's going on and on about "this is the 103rd year of the ROC being independent" now and refusing to acknowledge I'm a white boy from New York.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:52, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Also I'm tired of being the only one rolling back his vandalism on Taipei, Holy See, and Foreign relations of Taiwan.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:59, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
HiLo48 please help me with this fuckwit before I lose it.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:31, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

It's established that this article should use the name "Taiwan" for the topic, but in the discussion that lead to the move while there was discussion about other pages, there was no clear consensus formed about the language that should be used in other pages. The same logic of the move applies in most cases, and so the term "Taiwan" should be used in a similar manner across other pages, but simply citing the discussion is not a way to conclude the matter. On pages where there is clearly some controversy about the wording, it will have to be decided through clear discussion on that page, not this one. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 16:52, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Wikipedia doesn't need that many agonising shitfights. HiLo48 (talk) 08:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
To be clear, I'm not advocating that every page which mentions Taiwan should have a naming debate identical in tone and length to the ones that have taken place here. Instead, I'm suggesting that sometimes, on a page like Taipei it may be necessary to have a discussion to decide whether the community agrees that the logic of the move applies there as well. Sometimes those discussion will devolve into political nonsense and name-calling. I'd rather avoid all that, too, but That's my reading of policy, WP culture, and the oft-cited discussion at Talk:Taiwan/Archive 20. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 09:12, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
The only way I could agree with that would be if such discussions were constantly overseen by a captive, independent Admin, who would instantly intervene with severe consequences for any of the aforementioned political nonsense and name-calling. HiLo48 (talk) 11:12, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
No one is asking you to consent to the discussion. I'm just summarizing the situation. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 12:07, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
...in a very unrealistic and impractical way. the dramas that surround these article need to be stopped, not encouraged. HiLo48 (talk) 12:11, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
How about this, let's stick to what you, me, and an important majority of this community agree on: we should use the term "Taiwan" for the country and say that it's "officially known as the Republic of China" when necessary. That applies to this article and most Taiwan-related articles. How exactly related conflicts will be avoided or resolved is a matter that perhaps we have a small disagreement about. In either case, editors on this page should pay attention to Taipei, Holy See and other Taiwan-related articles to deal with name-related POV pushing efficiently. I hope that you are right, that drama about such matters can be somehow avoided. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 13:11, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, we should use the term "Taiwan" for the country and say that it's "officially known as the Republic of China" when necessary. I have never sought anything else. I just don't want to see idiotic allegations of communist editing thrown around again, anywhere. That's quite unhelpful. HiLo48 (talk) 07:05, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Why is Wikipedia coming up with their own names? WP:COMMONNAME applies to article titles. Everywhere else, official names can and should be used. The state in question uses "Republic of China (Taiwan)", why is Wikipedia doing something different than what is officially used by the government in question? That's not NPOV.
Since when? If you look at the examples in WP:COMMONNAME, most of the instances in the articles will use the common names whenever the context is clear. For instance, the UK is described by its full name at the beginning and is simply called UK or United Kingdom throughout. Abstractematics (talk) 16:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
In that case, the article should be using ROC, not Taiwan. UK is short for United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland. The acronym for Republic of China is ROC. Not Taiwan. The common name for the UK, at least here in the US, for the UK is either Britain or England. We don't call Elizabeth II, queen of the UK. We call her the queen of England.
A consensus has emerged from this talk page that "Taiwan" is the common name for this topic. It's not unanimity and consensus can change, but as well as I can understand the thinking of the community on this page, the name is "Taiwan" and the consensus has grown stronger, not weaker over time. You are free to challenge that, but don't expect to change everyone's minds simply by stating matter-of-factly that the common name is ROC and not Taiwan. We should probably post a banner at the top of this talk page to link to the most recent move discussion and summarize the outcome in a sentence, since this comes up pretty much all the time. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 04:11, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Non-existing anchor link[edit]

In the last paragraph of the introduction, where it says "Taiwan is ranked highly in terms of (...), the "ranked highly" link doesn't point to anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:690:2100:1A:221:63FF:FE72:612E (talk) 11:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


State[edit]

Again, please avoid any modifier in front of the word "state" in the opening introduction about Taiwan given the controversy everyone has. If someone adds the modifier "sovereign," then in a matter of weeks or months someone else change it to "partially recognized" or "de-facto," and there'll be yet another long argument on this talk page. (And frankly, it disturbs me that the Wikipedia coined the term or created the neologism of "partially recognized state" and zealously applies that to Taiwan in various listings/categories when traditional non-governmental print-based encyclopedias and almanacs have for years avoided putting Taiwan in a separate compartment in the list of countries/states. Even if those encyclopedias/almanacs do note that Taiwan no longer has so many diplomatic relations, they wouldn't downgrade or hide it from the listing of states/countries. Again, note that I use the term "non-governmental." But even then, the CIA World Factbook no longer places Taiwan below the entry of Zimbabwe under its alphabetical listings.) Allentchang (talk) 23:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia should be more about facts and citable sources and not about ambiguous terms or making people feel comfortable. The phrase "sovereign state" is better than the word "state" in almost every way because Taiwan's sovereignty is an undisputable fact that have sustained for the past half century from whichever perspective you examine the situation.
I recognize your point that trolls could potentially start engaging in vandalism, but from what you wrote, that seems more like speculation and not actually what would happen or had happened (unless you can show me past wiki editing history regarding vandalism with respect to this particular word). Suppose if they did add in the phrase "partially recognized", I wouldn't necessarily oppose it because it's equally the fact, just not necessarily agree that it should be in the intro.
Even if trolls start engaging in these activities, I don't think we should cave in to them since what they are saying is ultimately false. This attitude of caving in would drive away even more Wikipedians as the resulting work would be mediocre and untruthful.
Hence, I propose the use of "sovereign state" because its the clearer and factual version, especially for the vast number of readers who are unfamiliar with Taiwan or with cross strait relations, including people who are thinking about traveling to the island and is confused if the island is under Communist control like Hong Kong or Macau. --Axtxqk (talk) 09:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I think that just calling it a state, country, or equivalent gets the point across. Adding the word sovereign just makes it sound gratified and indisputable, and unnecessarily draws attention.
If anything, we should go the other way and remove the "sovereign" adjective from other articles when it's redundant - such as in the PRC article - especially when the state's recognition is challenged. Abstractematics (talk) 18:20, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps it's just me but I still think there is something wrong with this word and the existing solution doesn't give a satisfactory answer. The word State as shown in its wiki article, has several meanings, in which one of the definition states "...or sub-entity (such as an autonomous territory of a country)". This is unsuitable given Taiwan's unique situation. In fact, given Taiwan's situation, it's better to be explicit than implicit. The phrase sovereign state is not simply a gratifying adjective combined with the word "state", but a phrase with a specific pre-defined meaning, the current article already links to sovereign state. In addition, there is still assumption this would draw unnecessary attention, but such phenomenon has not yet been proven to be case at this point.
I would propose, perhaps as a workaround to resolve our differences, that we go with the clearer and more factual term sovereign state and only return to this discussion if there are people start frequently editing the phrase or engaging in vandalism. At this point, none of these events have happended. --Axtxqk (talk) 10:34, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
According to a recently archived discussion, the label "state" was a compromise solution. So this has come up before.
I feel that in terms of government, the default meaning of state would be an independent country/nation of some kind. And several countries style themselves as "State of (name)". If it was a sub-entity like a federated state, then you could tell that by context since the lead description would show which nation or entity it belongs to. The full phrase of "sovereign state" would only be needed in certain instances where the article is talking about something specific, maybe with some degree of scrutiny with regards to international law. Abstractematics (talk) 06:34, 30 September 2014 (UTC)