Talk:Taiwan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search


Former good article Taiwan was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Taiwan (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Taiwan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Taiwan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject China (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject Asia (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Asia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject East Asia (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject East Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of East Asia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Countries (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject Islands (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islands, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of islands on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 

This article has comments here.

Wikipedia Version 1.0 Editorial Team / v0.5
WikiProject icon This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Taskforce icon
This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
 
Note icon
This article is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the quality scale.
This article has an assessment summary page.
Stock post message.svg Taiwan Article Guidelines


The following guidelines have been established by consensus and convention:

  1. Simplified Chinese shall remain in the linguistics infobox per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language)#Simplified and Traditional
  2. Please do not add Simplified characters and tongyong pinyin to the country infobox.
  3. Please refrain from adding "(Taiwan)" all over the article as this article includes substantial information about the Republic of China prior to the Republic of China on Taiwan/Taiwan post-war era.
edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Taiwan:
  • Improve article based on feature article review
  • Add a short section about the culture and the geography of the ROC territories (with links to the main articles)
  • Review alt text of images
  • Should the role and influence of Sun Yat-sen be introduced in the History section?

Reader feedback[edit]

I was looking at the reader feedback, and no less than three comments complain about the fact that Republic of China directs to this page. The hat note is obviously not enough. The lemma should direct to some place more appropriate, either Republic of China (disambiguation), Republic of China (1912–1949), or History of the Republic of China. Kauffner (talk) 16:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The main fact is that, the Government of the Republic of China which is situated in Taipei, rules the Kinmen and Matsu of Fukien/Fujian province, and Tungsha islands of Kuangtung/Guangdong province, Taiping island of Nansha islands of Kuangtung province (Hainan province in the classification of PRC). There is not point in redirecting Republic of China to Taiwan.-- Hello World! 07:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Editor Sl that it was a mistake to change the article to "Taiwan". The ROC has a proud and impressive history. All that is ignored in this decision. Frenchmalawi (talk) 15:15, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Category[edit]

I have moved the category Category:Former member states of the United Nations from this article to a redirect, Republic of China (1945–71), in order to remove any implication-by-categorization that the ROC was ever a member of the UN under the name "Taiwan". Yes, this article is about the Republic of China, but when the ROC was in the UN, it was not referred to as "Taiwan" in the UN, and the ROC claimed to be the government of all China, and the UN implicitly regarded it as such. So I think the change helps avoid any confusion on the matter. Good Ol’factory (talk) 19:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The article makes it pretty clear that it is about the Republic of China (see first sentence of article). Your concern appears to be that the article is titled "Taiwan" instead of "Republic of China", which might result in confusion. At what point did it become not okay to say that the ROC used to be a member of the UN? Was it back in February 2012? That seems like an extremely arbitrary line to draw.
What is the point in moving the category to a newly-created non-existent page (a redirect) for the sake of non-implication-by-categorization, when it just directs to "Taiwan" anyway? Why not redirect it to Republic of China, especially since given that the category already says "former member states", adding in specific years is actually unnecessary? -Multivariable (talk) 20:39, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I agree with the idea first promoted. It is wrong to list the Republic of China as a former UN member. That is simply not true. China (then named ROC) was a founding member of the UN. It is still a member (although now named PRC). Like Libya, the country had a civil war. One side won and renamed the country PRC. Calling the ROC a former member is like calling the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya a former member. Civil wars happen routinely; and ex-governments styling the country by a different name don't get listed as "former members". Of course, the China seat is a fascinating complicated story. Frenchmalawi (talk) 15:13, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
With respect that is not true what you're saying. Following your wording the Republic of China isnt a nation and doesnt exist nor is it China. The ROC still exists and IS China and so is the PRC (sadly). The ROC controlled the seat of the UN even after they lost mainland China to that communist terrorist/dictator and mass murderer Mao Zendong. --85.119.106.82 (talk) 14:02, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
User talk:85.119.106.82, with respect, you are absolutely free to express your opinion. A factual statement, no opinion about it, is that the aggregate population of the countries that do not recognise the ROC as a modern day sovereign country make up well over 99% of the world's population. So, your opinion, is a minority one. Frenchmalawi (talk) 03:49, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Partially-recognised in first sentence?[edit]

I disagree the fact that Taiwan has only partial international recognition should be mentioned in the first sentence. On the other hand, an alternative I would be okay with is a neutrally written sentence briefly noting its complex political status at the end of the first paragraph, before we dive into the history and only address the issue in the third paragraph. Thoughts? wctaiwan (talk) 15:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we can say without qualification that it is a sovereign state, when that is such a highly disputed claim. WP:NPOV demands that we give WP:DUE weight to both POVs. Whether that means we say "disputed state", "partially recognized state" or something else, I'm open to discuss. But claiming that it is a sovereign state without explaining that their independence is disputed by most of the world doesn't seem to be a NPOV way of presenting the facts. TDL (talk) 15:49, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
To be clear, the current state of affairs is [[sovereign state|state]]. The main issue I have with some of the wordings, especially ones like "disputed", is that they often present a misleading picture of Taiwan--China is politically powerful, so Taiwan has very little official recognition as a state, but in every other manner it functions like one, with an elected government and its own quasi-embassies. Last time this debate took place, some people didn't like the usage of the word "sovereign", others didn't like "disputed" or "de-facto independent", so a compromised was reached to just use "state". wctaiwan (talk) 15:56, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Right, but if we link to sovereign state then we are claiming that it is a sovereign state. In fact, that link violates WP:EGG so we need to either stop hiding the "sovereign" or change the link to State (polity).
The reason why the ROC is disputed is of secondary importance. Our job is to report facts as they are, not as they could be if China wasn't so powerful. Everyone, including both the PRC and ROC, agree that there is a dispute so I don't see how this is misleading. All of your arguments could be applied to say Republic of Kosovo (which is recognized by 5x as many states), but that article uses " partially recognised state". Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic has similar wording. TDL (talk) 16:51, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
This source says of states such as Taiwan: "'partially recognized' states would therefore be a more accurate description of these entities than 'de facto state' or 'unrecognized state'. But 'contested state' is an even better term inasmuch as it neatly captures the full political and legal problems faced by these territories." Any of these terms (de facto, partially recognized, disputed, contested) works for me, but again, asserting as a fact that it is a sovereign state without any explanation that this claim is widely disputed by other states is very misleading and does not give WP:DUE weight to both POVs. Any willingness to compromise here, or do I need to seek WP:DR? TDL (talk) 02:02, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm willing to accept either or both of the following: 1. de-linking "state" to avoid any appearance of weaselling (though really, the limited recognition doesn't really change the fact that in practice, the ROC has full sovereignty over its actual territory), 2. as I proposed above, adding a neutrally worded sentence at the end of the first paragraph to give greater prominence (but still not first-sentence, most-important-thing-about-the-subject kind of prominence) to the issue. Alternatively, if you could get clear consensus among at least a few other long-term editors for your proposal, I'm certainly not going to try to block it single-handedly. wctaiwan (talk) 04:43, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

It isn't broke. Why change it? We've had discussions in the past about the wording within the lead paragraph, and the current state is a compromise between a bunch of differing viewpoints. --benlisquareTCE 06:17, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

  • (Note: Now that I realise, a few months down the track and the above comment can be misinterpreted. Back in September, I was in support of User:Wctaiwan's points, after another user attempted to make various changes to the lead paragraph.) --benlisquareTCE 10:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree that the current wording is problematic. The claim that Taiwan is a state is a "seriously contested assertion", in the words of WP:NPOV, and therefore we cannot assert it. I would suggest instead the wording "de facto independent country". We could then say in the second sentence that its de jure status is disputed. Neljack (talk) 10:08, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
  • It was a compromise made some time ago within a heavy contested topic, between two sides with strongly differing opinions. One side preferred to state that Taiwan was "an independent country", whilst the other side preferred "a largely unrecognised, disputed political entity", with strong emphasis on the adjectives used by both sides. Though, I do have to say that consensus isn't permanent, and can change, and so if people think that the status quo needs to be changed, another WP:RFC can be started. --benlisquareTCE 10:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I disagree with the removal of "partially recognised". It is such an important fact that it ought to have been left in. The "Republic of China" does not exist from the perspective of countries representing over 99% of the world's population. That is a fundamental fact and the first sentence shouldn't mask the complexity. Frenchmalawi (talk) 15:07, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
If "partially recognised" is going to be put in for Republic of China, it needs to also be put in for People's Republic of China. The latter has no diplomatic recognition with over 20 countries which is still about 10% of the commonly recognized nations. That's as much of a fundamental fact as what you state. States with limited recognition article includes PRC as well as ROC, among others. Furthermore, a large number of the countries officially recognizing PRC have relations with ROC in all but name, whereas there is very little unofficial contact of that sort with PRC for countries that recognize ROC.
The current form of simply "state" is what I find most neutral, as after all, people from diverse ethnic and national backgrounds (meaning, different official stances on ROC) read this article. Abstractematics (talk) 07:25, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous. There is a huge difference between an entity that is recognised by 90% of its peers, and one that is recognised by 10% of its peers. The current form of "state", especially linking to "sovereign state", is not at all neutral, and while may be the case de facto, is definitely not the case de jure to the vast majority of the world. The opening paragraph needs to recognise this distinction, and unequivocally qualify that Taiwan is not recognised officially as a sovereign state by the vast majority of sovereign states and other international bodies. Alkenrinnstet (talk) 06:58, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Agree with User talk:Alkenrinnstet; the ROC is recognised by states whose population make up less than 1% if the world's population. Frenchmalawi (talk) 03:45, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Percent of Taiwanese aborigines by townships of Taiwan[edit]

Where I get Percent of Taiwanese aborigines by townships of Taiwan?--Kaiyr (talk) 17:03, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

There's some oudated data (end of 2012) at [1]. [2] has more recent and detailed statistics, but they are only available in Chinese. (For future reference, this kind of question is better for WP:Reference desk.) wctaiwan (talk) 18:19, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2014[edit]

Please change: officially the Republic of China (ROC; Chinese: 中華民國; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Mínguó), is a state in East Asia. to: officially the Republic of China (ROC; Chinese: 中華民國; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Mínguó), is a country in East Asia.

also, please change: Neighboring states include the People's Republic of China to the west, Japan to the east and northeast, and the Philippines to the south. to: Neighboring countries include the People's Republic of China to the west, Japan to the east and northeast, and the Philippines to the south.


According to the mandarin original text in the Taiwan Wikipedia page, Taiwan is a country and not a state. Also people's republic of china, Japan, Philippines are not states, they are countries.

see below: 中華民國是位於東亞的民主共和國[參 9],為亞洲現有最早實行共和立憲制度的國家[參 10],成立於1912年1月1日,於1971年前被廣泛承認代表中國[注 11],現今因主要國土位置或政治因素而被通稱為「臺灣」[參 2]。 67.121.104.204 (talk) 10:48, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done
I think you're confused in regards to the definition of state. I see that you live in California, United States, which furthers my assumptions. There is more to the word "state" than the "US state" (e.g. Texas, Missouri, etc) definition; a sovereign state is a political entity that we call Canada, or Serbia, or Cambodia. With this definition, China, Philippines and Japan are "states". The terms "state", "nation" and "country" refer to concepts which may be similar, however still have their small distinctions. In order to avoid ambiguity, it's better to refer to objects such as China, Japan, Britain, Russia, the United States, France, et cetera as sovereign states, instead of the two alternative terms. A sovereign state is largely defined in modern contexts based on Westphalian sovereignty, whilst the definitions of nation and country differ depending on various contexts.

I wouldn't put too much thought on what the Chinese Wikipedia says on this issue. The Chinese language, like all languages, has its limitations in that there is no one-to-one correspondence with English political vocabulary. The English words "state", "nation" and "country" are all translated as "國" in Chinese, as Chinese does not make such a distinction. The Ministry of National Defense of the Republic of China is called "中華民國國防部" (國 = nation), the United Nations is called "聯合" (國 = nation), the United States Department of State is called "美國國務院" (國 = state), the Commonwealth of Independent States is called "獨立國家聯合體" (國 = state), and the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries is called "石油輸出國組織" (國 = country). --benlisquareTCE 11:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)