Talk:The Holocaust

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Former good article nominee The Holocaust was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject European history (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Germany (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Jewish history (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Israel (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Judaism (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject LGBT studies (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject Discrimination (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.
 
WikiProject Death (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Human rights (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Disaster management (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.
 
WikiProject Religion (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
News This article has been mentioned by a media organisation:
Wikipedia Version 1.0 Editorial Team / v0.5 / Vital / Supplemental
WikiProject icon This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Taskforce icon
This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.

"Murder" as terminology[edit]

Can somebody explain why the word "murder" is used repeatedly throughout the article? Nevermind, I know exactly why. But it shouldn't be. If you look at articles about the killing fields of Cambodia or even the rape and destruction of eastern Europe by the Red Army, the word murder scarcely if ever appears.

I suggest that the term 'murder' be replaced with a less POV word like killing.

To be honest this article is so hopelessly POV I suggest it be nuked and we start over. 71.169.183.40 (talk) 13:15, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

You would need to explain why you thought the article was "hopelessly POV". The the other articles you mention might not be in compliance with WP:EUPHEMISM; that is no reason to soften this article. VQuakr (talk) 17:40, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Here's a guess, because people were murdered. Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:12, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
It seems obvious to me that the pro-Jewish lobby has ensured that emotional and potentially untrue language (murder is a precise legal term) is used for the Jewish tragedy. What about the Rwandans, or the Ukrainians, or the Chinese? Their lobby is not as powerful, they do not exploit their sufferings into the present day for political gain. This entire article is unfit for consumption, it is pure propaganda. I am no "Holocaust Denier", I just think an encyclopedia as widely read as Wikipedia should be impartial and avoid pandering to any particular group. 71.169.183.40 (talk) 18:43, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps the unreferenced statement is obvious to some, but it is not true. To take just one example: Timothy Snyder, Professor of History at Yale writes as follows "The term Holocaust was introduced after the war and, by the 1990s, was generally (although by no means always) understood to mean the mass murder of the Jews by the Germans. In this book the term Holocaust signifies the final version of the Final Solution, the German policy to eliminate the Jews of Europe by murdering them. (Snyder, Timothy (2010-10-12). Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin (Kindle Locations 7591-7594). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.)Joel Mc (talk) 19:04, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with VQuakr that the statement is nonsense, but but I reverted as there are people out there who believe that nonsense which is why I added my statement with the reference to Snyder. There are of course many other examples that could be given. Joel Mc (talk) 19:35, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Development and Execution > Origins[edit]

The first paragraph in this section reads:

"Yehuda Bauer and Lucy Dawidowicz maintained that from the Middle Ages onward, German society and culture were suffused with antisemitism, and that there was a direct ideological link from medieval pogroms to the Nazi death camps.[35]"

I have two comments:

1) This passage seems unduly one-sided. Antisemitism is by no means a particularly German phenomenon, but rather part of a broader Christian tradition (witness Spanish expulsion of Jews after the Reconquista, French antisemitism in Dreyfus affair, Norwegian closure of borders to Jews until 1851 etc. etc.).

2) The references adduced seem random. Why are these two authors in particular singled out here? I do not have access to the Bauer text, but I have consulted Dawidowicz. In the referenced passage she says nothing about the Middle Ages (nor about any "direct ideological link from medieval pogroms to the Nazi death camps"), but gives a brief (<1 page) discussion of Martin Luther's views and compares them to Hitler's.

In my opinion the paragraph should be rewritten as an ultra-short outline of Christian/European antisemitism, perhaps with a reference or two to authors that have given extensive and in-depth treatment of the history of this theme. Since I am not a specialist, I cannot with confidence suggest such a text myself. Filursiax (talk) 01:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Lebensunwertes Leben meaning[edit]

This article says that that term referred to victims of the Holocaust. But I looked it up just now in google books, it says in Dictionary of Genocide by Paul R. Bartrop and Samuel Totten "Life Unworthy of Life (German Lebensunwertes Leben) German Nazi term for those afflicted with hereditary illnesses, including the mentally ill, who were perceived as a political and economic burden to German society and worthy of euthanasia." I think that the euthanasia program was the context in which that term was used, not the extermination of European Jews. I don't want to change it myself though so I thought I might hear other viewpoints. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 02:13, 13 April 2015 (UTC) Bishonen and Maunus insinuated that I was a neo-Nazi, which I'm not. So I want to clarify, when I'm making this point, I'm not arguing the Holocaust did not take place, I'm saying that the sources I've looked at indicate that this term was not in reference to that event. The Oxford Textbook of Clinical Research Ethics edited by Ezekiel J. Emanuel, Christine C. Grady, Robert A. Crouch, Reidar K. Lie, Franklin G. Miller, David D. Wendler Of course, euthanasia was a euphemism. The killings did not correspond to conventional notions of "releasing" an individual who so wishes from the pain and suffering of a terminable and incurable illness. Rather, the Nazi euthanasia program targeted "worthless lives"(Lebensunwertes Leben) "undesirables" such as the infirm, non-Aryans, or adolescents who challenged authority." When Doctors Kill: Who, Why, and How By Joshua A. Perper, Stephen J. Cina "By late 1938, only months before the preparations for war accelerated, the Nazi regime authorized mercy killings of babies born deformed or with brain damage. A Reich Committee for the Scientific Registration of Serious Hereditary and Congenital Diseases was made responsible for monitoring the registration of all children under 3 years of age with any suspected serious hereditary diseases...The physicians staffing the euthanasia commission made their determination of Lebensunwertes Leben (life unworthy of life)". So I believe that term was in reference to Hitler's murders in the euthanasia program, not to the Holocaust.--PaulBustion88 (talk) 04:44, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I have moved the sentence to a more appropriate section and have given it a reference. I am sure that it can be improved upon. Joel Mc (talk) 11:56, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Does the killing of mentally disabled people part even belong in this article? The traditional definition of the Holocaust is the mass murder/extermination of Europe's Jews. The other people who were murdered by the Nazis, such as Gypsies, Bolsheviks, Freemasons, homosexuals, and the mentally disabled, are usually considered a separate issue from the Holocaust.--PaulBustion88 (talk) 22:28, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Your implication that they don't belong is right in my view. However, during the last 8 years that I have been editing this article, this has been a contentious issue. There have been at least two points of view: 1)there are those, like myself, who believe that this is a definitional issue and that an encylopedia entry should reflect what experts have written on the issue. 2) others have reacted that not to include non-Jewish victims in the definition somehow devalues their suffering even though there are separate articles about the mass murders by the Nazis of most of other groups. Earlier attempts to focus on the widely accepted definition (see my comments above) have stirred up strong reactions from those opposed. A wikipedia "Super Editor" abandoned her attempt to bring up the article to a "Good Article" status because of the hostile reaction by those opposed to the definitional approach. So I suppose that it will remain as the mess that it is. Joel Mc (talk) 09:04, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Paul, where are you from? No matter how many scientific journals are released, some stuff stays in tradition. It will be told by teachers, survivors, and grandparents, meaning it will inevitable keep a foothold. "Holocaust" became a term for many horrible things. That the loss of Jews was proportionally large does not mean only they were mourned, though this might be advocated in areas that weren't occupied. I'm sure Poland considers its 3 million non-Jews who went on the same trains as Jews just as much victims of the Holocaust; the systematic cleansing in the name of extreme eugenics. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 15:22, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Introduction[edit]

Shall we mention that the 6 million number is roughly 7% of the total estimated WW2 casualties? While killing civilians has always been taboo, I hardly see how we should put less weight on people who went to die for their country than on people who hid. It seems some Americans, who lost a few hundred thousand, learn at school that few died beyond the victims of the holocaust. And since a certain few intend to keep the page Heidenchristenfrei this would help a lot. 8 articles about this subject already exist or so, but none mention this. 77.165.250.227 (talk) 11:09, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

'Heidenchristenfrei'? Exactly what do you mean by that? --jpgordon::==( o ) 13:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Heathen Christians 77.165.250.227 (talk) 21:12, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Well that doesn't help much. What are you trying to say? Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:20, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
He means free of non-Jews, a pun on the Nazi phrase Judenfrei. Paul B (talk) 21:26, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Ahh of course. OK, anyway, I don't see how mentioning the percentage adds anything, unless RSs do it. Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:28, 19 May 2015 (UTC)