Wikipedia talk:Categorization

Cat structure is not a Tree, it's more like a Family

Section #Category organisation now says (my bolding): Categories are organized as overlapping trees, formed by creating links between inter-related categories. This is mistifying, and probably wrong. Our DAG Cat structure is a family-like structure. E.g., a Cat has multiple parents (in a Tree, a Cat=branch could only have a single parent). I propose improve this explanation. It should be without references to a tree-structure. Current talk is here-DePiep (talk) 21:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree DePiep. I believe there are two conflicting categorisation cultures at Wikipedia: [a] a culture following the DAG Cat model (linking together categories by their inter-relatedness) and [b] a culture following a strictly tree-branch model (one which logically restricts links between branches). The latter has given us absurd situations where Category:Guggenheim Museum is just one branch away from Category:Vyborg Castle, but over a dozen away from Category:Manhattan. Can you propose a new wording to reflect the fact that Wikipedia uses a DAG Cat structure? SFB 23:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Since my posting here, I've learned two factual details.

First: From a Category, looking downwards, it is a tree. Branches and leaves. Second: there is a Special Page to get the Articles in a Category, including the downward ones, for example Category:Black Sea: [1].

I maintain that the Cat structure should be maintqined according to DAG. -DePiep (talk) 01:33, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Category for legal cases that ACLU is involved in?

A question has arisen regarding newly created category: Category:Cases related to the ACLU. There was a similar category which was deleted 3 year ago: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_April_12#Category:Court_cases_litigated_by_the_American_Civil_Liberties_Union. There is also a list: List of court cases involving the American Civil Liberties Union. The question is whether this is a sufficiently defined category. The Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates guideline points out that Categories and Lists are independent indexing systems, and the presence of one does not obviate the need for the other. I think that a user should be able to start at the ACLU top-level category and find all cases related to the ACLU - without having to proceed to the List. More important is the reverse function: when looking at legal case X (in which the ACLU was involved) the user should be able to notice that the ACLU was involved somehow, and navigate to other similar legal cases: the Category at the bottom does that, the List does not (unless the List were included in the See Also section). Thoughts? --Noleander (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

• It's my opinion that this doesn't work as a category (regardless of whether it works as a list) because the ACLU is involved in far too many cases (often just as an amicus brief author or signatory) and these cases are similar only in that they involve "civil liberties"...which is incredibly broad (click the "all issues" link at the top of this page for a sampling). And once we go down that road, then we also categorize by every trade industry and non profit org that is a party or signs on to a brief. Even for a case in which the ACLU is a named litigant, such as Ashcroft v. American Civil Liberties Union, they might just be one of many (from one of the court filings in that case, the parties against the government were American Civil Liberties Union; Androgyny Books, Inc. d/b/a A Different Light Bookstores; American Booksellers Foundation For Free Expression; Artnet Worldwide Corporation; BlackStripe; Addazi Inc. d/b/a Condomania; Electronic Frontier Foundation; Electronic Privacy Information Center; Free Speech Media; OBGYN.net; Philadelphia Gay News; PlanetOut Corporation; Powell’s Bookstore; Riotgrrl; Salon Media Group, Inc.; and West Stock, Inc., now known as ImageState North America, Inc.). So the category is non-defining for most of its members, not subject to meaningful control of its scope, and sets a bad precedent. postdlf (talk) 15:56, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, you are correct, and the category does not have a precise inclusion definition. On the other hand, I'm wondering if this is one of those situations where the rules could be interpreted liberally to help readers? The ACLU is, far and away, the most important litigator for Supreme Court cases, so it is natural to have a category that indexes those cases. The odds that an editor will try to create a category on cases related to the American Booksellers Foundation is very remote. That said, I have no big heartburn with living with the List alone, but I think we would be doing readers a disservice if the Category were eliminated. --Noleander (talk) 16:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I was eyeing this one myself. So you're thinking of a court case by law firm category (even if their work is pro bono usually)? That might be workable, or might not. What is definitely not workable is a category for every case they filed a brief in as that would be duplicated with the chamber of commerce, etc. RevelationDirect (talk) 00:40, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

How to handle changing of trees

In looking at this discussion it raises some questions about how we deal with changing status. I did a quick hack at Category:1776 establishments in the United States and Category:1775 establishments in the Thirteen Colonies with hat notes. The problem is that we don't have a clean way to handle splits or changes. Are hat notes the best solution along with some comments as needed? In the case above, it would be valid to have both Category:1776 establishments in the United States and Category:1776 establishments in the Thirteen Colonies since the US was created in the middle of the year. A similar issue exists with the Christianity categories since the start as one with several splits along the way. It is too easy to miscategorize around those transition years. In the case of the Christianity categories, current RC churches still exist from before the use of the RC name or the recognition of this as a separate branch. Maybe this is a simple essay and the hat notes like I suggested above. I don't think it should be a rule, but guidance should be provided somewhere. Vegaswikian (talk) 08:04, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

People from issue

There is a large number of categories in the form of "people from", such as "Category:People from Kraków." They have no single parent category, being the low level of categories like Category:People by place and its children. Those categories suffer from a major issue - it is unclear whether they are for people born in a given place, or for people with strong ties. I have always thought it was the former, but the usage is not consistent. Worse, the problem is compunded through clearly different interwikis; for example, for the Kraków category mentioned above, French wiki has fr:Catégorie:Naissance à Cracovie ("born in Kraków") and Polish, pl:Kategoria:Ludzie związani z Krakowem ("people associated with Kraków"). It doesn't help we have some associated categories too, for example Category:People associated with Kraków or Category:People associated with Edinburgh (both parents to respective "people from"). This suggests to me that we need to rename all "from categories" that do not have the "associated with" parent into an associated with version, but keep the from categories, which should be populated with the people born in those locations. We should also have some parent categories for all associated with and from categories, although I am not sure about the desired names. Perhaps Category:People associated with a location and Category:People by birthplace? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 17:17, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Since nobody seems to be monitoring this page, I am putting this up for a wider RFC discussion. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 21:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The "people from" categories have always (i.e., since the implementation of categories) been interpreted as "people associated with", to cover a variety of associations. Annotated lists can help with the sorting problem of describing their particular relationship with the locale, which I think might be too fine a distinction for categories to handle effectively and would cause big problems with multiple and/or overlapping relationships; you'd have many biographies categorized by the same place for having been born there, lived there, went to school there, etc. I don't know if I'd have an objection to renaming them to "associated with," though I think some people might consider that even more vague than "from," and may open the floodgates to associations that are less integral to their biography such as "made an important speech there" or "had a building named after them there." Otherwise, any "associated with" should be merged into the "from" structure. postdlf (talk) 21:19, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

If you dig thru the old CfDs, I believe you will find some where the issue of born in was discussed and this trait was considered to not be defining hence it is not something that should be categorized. If there is a problem with the tree it is that the inclusion criteria is very subjective and not in any way objective. However I believe that fixing that may be impossible. If born in is a valid feature, then lists would be the way to go so that you can explain how it was defining. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:21, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the two previous statements. Many people have multiple links with places (through birth, residence, or cultural impact) and the "from" distinction provides us with a simple way of allocating locations that are a defining characteristic of the person. To take a random example, Hugh Scanlon was born in Australia but is much more associated with parts of Manchester. I appreciate you concerns over current usage Piotrus, but if we split these into "birthplace" and "associated" categories then you would soon find that people would be categorised by their birthplace regardless of its relevance to their life and might possibly be placed into both categories anyway. SFB 23:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with having individuals categorized both by birth and by places they've been heavily associated with. Place of birth is an important characteristic, found in official documents, biographies, leads of our articles, infoboxes, persondata meta templates and such. At the same time, being associated with locations is important for many others. As I've demonstrated above, we already have some locations which have this dual split, and it is more common practice on some other wikis. Is there any reason we should not endorse a clear split of categories into associated with and born with? Should we in fact delete and merge some of the dual categories we have? Certainly it is confusing to have a small number of dual categories which are clearly split, whereas most aren't. I'd hope that in our constant refining of information (and categories), we will take a step forward and endorse both categories, rather than a step back and continue with an unclear division. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 18:48, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

But is the place of birth defining? For some selected individuals yes, but for most no. Categories are for defining characteristics and since the individual does not control where they are born, it is hard to make a case that it is in fact defining. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:28, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The precedent is to tolerate the ambiguity and let anyone who is associated with a place, either by birth or in some other defining way, be a "person from X". I do agree that there needs to be some kind of further categorization because those categories get huge, like Category:People_from_New_York_City which has about 4000 entries. I would be interested in hearing proposals. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:52, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that birth category is not very important, but the fact is that it is used, and as Bluerasberry notes, the result is unwieldy categories. For proposal, see my suggestion above - have a clear category for birth, and a more general, less ambiguously named one for association. So, rename all "people from" to "people associated with", and have the "people born in" in it as subcategory. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 22:04, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Piotrus' recommendation. Categories that are too broad tend to become huge(like the previously mentioned Category:People_from_New_York_City), and so I think specificity is almost always a good thing for categories, both for preventing confusion and making the category more readable.--Yutsi ^Talk/ Contributions 16:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I clicked ten people in that category and all but one of them could be easily moved in to one of the sub-categories at Category:People from New York City by occupation. The occupation aspect is much more important than a prospective difference between association by birth or residence, mostly because when you sort people by job+location you get people who are closely connected for a real reason (being part of the same cultural scene/sporting teams/gangs/corporations etc). The real life difference between a person who was born in a city and another who moved there at the age of four (or was born in a nearby settlement) is small both in Wikipedia terms and real life terms. Perhaps it is merely a case of the need for effective diffusion and creation of further occupation categories. SFB 20:16, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I do agree that occupation cats for locales are useful. But for many locales there are no occupation categories (NYC is rather an exception here, usually by occupation division is done at national level, not city), which results in large lumps in the main people from city category. Please note we are talking not about creating more detailed categories, but cleaning the mess at the top. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 22:04, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps wider use of occupation cats for populous cities would resolve this issue of large numbers in the person from city cats, but I suppose that's my perspective because I don't believe the "from" categories constitute a mess. SFB 18:15, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I support the wider use of those cats, but we will always have numerous cases where there's not enough subjects to populate such categories. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 03:35, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

• Occupational splitting good; birth vs. "association" not helpful: Often we have no reliable birthplace information, and the difference doesn't seem encyclopedically useful. There's no compelling reason at all to have "Category:People born in Albuquerque" vs. "Category:People associated with Albuquerque" (especially since the latter implies an actual association in people's minds, which is often not the case at all). A lot of people are born in places they have no other association with, and thus for whom birthplace is pure trivia. (For example, I was born several hundred miles away from my parent's home because I "came knocking early" while they were visiting someone; a day or two later we were all back home, and I've never been back to that town again. I do agree that when such "Category:People from Albuquerque" kind of cats. get unwieldy they should be split, either by narrower geography if not already at the town/city level (a lot of these are county-level or otherwise regional categories) and by occupation if they are. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 22:26, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. I agree with SMcCandlish on these issues. Birthplace is pretty non-defining if the person is not "from" that place. I think the category set-up is fine how it is. The overcategorization guidelines already state that we should avoid the vague "People associated with FOO" category names. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:29, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

List categories by name - but end of

Is there a way to list all categories with a name that ends with a specific text such as articles needing photos ? I am trying to find a way to list all categories requesting an image. I can use this for those with standard naming convention but some project template use other format such as Microbiology articles needing photos‎ or Chemistry pages needing pictures. --Traveler100 (talk) 15:34, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

They should all be included in Category:Wikipedia requested images or the more specific Category:Wikipedia requested photographs‎. It is possible that a tool like AWB could generate a list, but I don't use it so I can't really say. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Unused categories

Why the page Special:UnusedCategories doesn't show more than 5,000 categories? I mean 5,000 in total, not 5,000 per page. On Romanian Wikipedia there are at least 12,000 categories that are empty because they are redirects and they have to stay empty (example: ro:Categorie:Absolvenţi Harvard) so I can't see all the empty categories who might have to be deleted or filled. —  Ark25  (talk) 14:53, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Thats a question for the developers. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Can you please point me where to ask that question? I am not sure where to do it. —  Ark25  (talk) 17:54, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Re-wording WP:EPONYMOUS

On numerous occasions, I've seen editors strip away an articles categories when those same categories are parents to the article's eponymous category (here's an example edit to show what I mean). Several times I've discussed this with editors and they are in the belief that the statements in WP:EPONYMOUS justify this practice. My only conclusion must be that the guidelines are not explicit or clear enough. Furthermore, Wikipedia:FAQ/Categorization makes reference to a "no categorizing into a subcategory and category at once" rule, but this rule doesn't seem to be openly stated on this page. The "Non-diffusing subcategories" section state that it can be "an exception to the general rule that pages are not placed in both a category and its subcategory". Why is this general rule not mentioned previously? It is highly unusual to find the first reference to a rule is a statement of exception.

This guideline page spend much of its focus on how categories should be categorised, often to the detriment of explaining how articles should be categorised. We should add this general rule in the overview section and clarify how the parent/child category relationship affects both articles and categories. SFB 18:21, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

While I disagree with WP:EPONYMOUS as it regards the categorization of eponymous categories, the editor whose edit you gave as an example got it completely backwards by removing categories from the article, when WP:EPONYMOUS talks about the removal from the category of parent categories that belong on its eponymous article. In other words, the article should always have all the categories of which it is rightly a member. postdlf (talk) 19:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with your answer. Those categories belong on the article and not the category since they would not apply to everything in the category. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

To clarify this distinction, here is my revision of the first two paragraphs of the eponymous section:

A category which covers the exact same topic as an article (e.g. George W. Bush and Category:George W. Bush, Mekong and Category:Mekong River) is known as an eponymous category. The article itself should be a member of the category and should be sorted with a space to appear at the start of the listing (as described below under Sort keys). Articles with an eponymous category should still be categorized in the broader categories that would be present if there were no eponymous category (e.g. the article France appears in both Category:France and Category:Western Europe, even though the latter is the parent category of the former).

An eponymous category should share the categories of its corresponding article, as long as they have direct relevance to the contents of the eponymous category. For example, the contents of Category:Museum of Modern Art have high relevance to Category:Museums in Manhattan, thus both the eponymous category and article (Museum of Modern Art) fall within that broader category. Conversely, the contents of the eponymous category have little relevance to Category:Buildings and structures completed in 1929, thus that category does not become a parent to the eponymous category.

I believe this revision does not change the essence of the statements currently presented, but rather makes them more explicit. SFB 23:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

• Please also note that I have put up for discussion Category:Eponymous categories, specifically questioning why we have content categories whose defining characteristic is that they are Wikipedia categories. SFB 13:08, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Just a heads up before I proceed: I'm going it revise the eponymous category section with the first paragraph, which I regard as uncontroversial and simply a more straight forward description of the current first paragraph. I will do this over the next few days if there is no opposition. What do people make of the second paragraph? Is it an accurate description of convention or not? SFB 21:55, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Categorisation of Hong Kong and Macau

From what I observed, many Hong Kong and Macau categories are subcats of the corresponding by-country parent categories (by their status of dependencies), and are subcats of the corresponding China or PRC categories with a <spacebar>Hong Kong or <spacebar>Macau catsort (in some cases an asterisk is used instead in place of the <spacebar> tho). When I apply it to other categories, SchmuckyTheCat (talk · contribs) undid them en masse.[2] Can anyone help look into the problem? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 08:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)Blocked as sock

Until about eleven months ago, category pages showed subcategories in a different manner than the present method. Say a category had about 750 articles, and 26 subcategories, and each of these was roughly evenly distributed through the alphabet. The first category page would show sub-cats A-G and articles A-G; the second category page would show sub-cats H-M and articles H-M, and so on. For some categories, it was felt that all the subcategories should show on the first page, so they were given sortkeys which sorted before A, and this was usually done by making them began with either a space or an asterisk. This was by no means a universal rule.

In early March 2011, the category page display code was changed significantly. All subcategories now show on all the pages of the category, so the first cat page will show subcategories A-Z and articles A-G; the second will show subcats A-Z and articles H-M, etc.: the space or asterisk is no longer necessary to force the sub-cats onto the first page.

There are still times when it is felt necessary to use a special sortkey to adjust the position of certain subcategories. Consider Category:States of the United States - there are 56 subcategories, of which 50 are for the 50 states, and these 50 are in their natural alphabetic order, as you would expect. The other six subcategories don't correspond to one single state, so are segregated out of the alphabetic list by means of a space or (in one case) a colon. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I think a similar case exists for Hong Kong and Macau. The two territories are the only "special administrative regions" of the People's Republic of China. The spacebar is meant to set their categories aside from those for other ordinary provinces. Is there any similar case for Category:Foo of Guam/Puerto Rico/USVI under Category:Foo of the United States? Further, I think it's a standard arrangement to place Category:Foo of Dependency under Category:Foo by country, and I don't understand it would met with separatist allegations. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)Blocked as sock

I have briefly gone through Category:Protected areas of Guam. It's a subcat of both Category:Protected areas by country and Category:Protected areas of the United States. It's set aside from US states by not being subcategorised under Category:Protected areas of the United States by state. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 19:39, 13 February 2012 (UTC)Blocked as sock

Really, you think Hong Kong is so important it should appear with special ranking at the top of every category? Higher than the capitol city? Because as a political exception, you don't want HK to be with the "other ordinary provinces" and thus you would elevate it to be the most important province that a reader navigating by categories will notice. Silly. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

That's getting too far. We can put them at the back too. I don't think ranking in categories is in any way connected with importance. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 23:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)Blocked as sock

Front of the bus or back of the bus. Why not just alphabetically sort them? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

• Suggestion: diffuse the categories? If the positioning of Hong Kong and Macau along with the provinces of PRC is a problem, create two meta-subcategories for "xxx by province", and "xxx by Special Administrative Region". Deryck C. 14:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

There isn't a problem. This originated because the IP was sorting HK/MO with a space in the alpha sort so they would float at the top. It isn't necessary and removing it isn't a problem. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I suppose you can read English. I stated clearly that it's a patten that I observed. I found it useful and therefore I apply the same thing to categories which this arrangement hasn't yet been applied. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)Blocked as sock

If it's going to make everyone happy, that's fine. But I don't think it's necessary or useful. The PRC isn't having 50 states and half a dozen of territories. And by doing so we will be on a slippery slope. E.g., will we have separate categories named "Category:Something by sovereign state" and "Category:Something by territory" under "Category:Something by country" some day? I myself prefer to follow the British or the Dutch approach. There will be no need for any spacebar or asterisk. But SchmuckyTheCat will certainly go around and label me as a separatist and an edit warrior with a political agenda (while he turns a blind eye to other dependencies[3]). 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)Blocked as sock

The most ideal is a "xxx by province" and "xxx by other regions". This other region category can include HK, Macau, Guangxi, Tibet regions or any special status type regions. Benjwong (talk) 02:34, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Provinces and autonomous regions share a lot more similarities than special administrative regions and autonomous regions do. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 10:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)Blocked as sock

Categorise Hong Kong and Macau under PRC is problematic as it do not conform to the custom usage on international issues. Hong Kong and Macau are usually count as separate entities in country list. Hong Kong and Macau have it own international call prefix, namely 852 and 853, and top level domain, namely .hk and .mo. Hong Kong is the full member of some international organisations like International Olympic Committee and World Organization of the Scout Movement. When you send mail to Hong Kong or Macau, you never need to write "China". Mails in Hong Kong and Macau are handled by different postal organisations from China. If you know the relations between China, PRC, ROC, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau issues well, it is pretty intangible and you can't please everyone. I propose to keep Hong Kong and Macau under country list, but not sovereignty state list. This is what the international custom and respect to the people in these areas. — HenryLi (Talk) 05:55, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Agree. But for categories this will make people like SchmuckyTheCat unhappy. He and other editors with similar views call it separatist. The same happens frequently around lists too (such as List of tallest buildings). They go on repeat and repeat that Hong Kong and Macau are integral parts of the PRC. They resist to understand that the saying "inalienable part" as appeared in both basic laws merely means that the two territories cannot be transferred to another sovereign state, and they cannot go independence. There's nothing we can do to stop these editors. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 10:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)Blocked as sock

I see. If you narrow it down by international significance, then Template:Identity cards should never have PRC (Macau . Hong Kong). Afterall the PRC identity card has never been an equal in terms of international value to the SAR cards. I have never heard of a SAR citizen wanting to get rid of their high valued SAR card in exchange for a PRC card that has nearly zero international rights. It is no different than paper handcuff. Benjwong (talk) 12:52, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

University research project on categories seeks interviewees

Hey. I am a Wikipedian in Seattle who is a campus ambassador. I writing to ask for volunteers to be interviewed by researchers who are studying Wikipedia's categorization system.

A class at the University of Washington is conducting one-hour text chat interviews with Wikipedians who want to talk about Wikipedia's categorization system. The goal of the project is to get enough information to draft a proposal that information scientists spend time participating in developing Wikipedia's taxonomy system. The research results will be returned to interviewees and everyone else, and they are expecting to publish a paper based on the results of this project.

If you have ever used Wikipedia's category system in any way and are willing to schedule an interview with this group, then please put your name on this list. The followup will be that they will email you to schedule a time when you could meet them for a text chat.

Thanks for your attention. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

WT:SOCIOLOGY#A cleanup of subcats of sociology?

Hi, this may be of interest to users of WT:CAT.

A discussion at WT:SOCIOLOGY has sparked an assessment of the subcategories of sociology which can be found here User:Meclee/proj4-sandbox. Anybody interested in discussing the possibilities of building a stronger encyclopedia with effective categorization; specifically starting from category:sociology in this case, is welcome to comment. This is also linked to WT:SOCIOLOGY. Brad7777 (talk) 16:54, 29 February 2012 (UTC)