Talk:Berbers

Barbary pirates

I would question the assertion that the Barbary pirates were all (or even largely) Berbers. The Barbary Coast was certainly named after them and the pirates were named after the coast but the vast increase in piracy happened after the Ottomans took over North Africa. AFAIK the majority of the pirates were Ottoman Turks, Arabs and "renegades" (Christian converts to Islam). The most famous Barbary pirate of them all, Barbarossa, was half-Turkish half-Greek. During the period of Ottoman domination in the Maghreb, most Berbers were pushed into the hinterland away from the coast. --Folantin (talk) 09:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Update: I've removed the whole section because it looked like a copy-and-paste from our Barbary pirates article. None of the references (which were mostly to general interest magazine articles culled off the Net) mentioned the Berbers in any case. --Folantin (talk) 10:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes Barabry pirates were not Berbers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.96.27 (talk) 02:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Septimius Severus

Their is no contemporary source record of Severus being a Berber. In fact, historians say he was of Phonecian and ancient Italian ancestry. See: Septimius Severus: the African emperor by Anthony Richard Birley and the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

He really should not be included here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.35.29 (talk) 13:47, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

So it does. Which leaves us with reliable sources with conflicting stories - we'll have to use both somehow. Dougweller (talk) 15:26, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, just noticed that Clodius Albinus is included here as a Berber despite no sources anywhere backing this up. As Albinus was from an aristocratic family in Hadrumetum it is highly likely that he was Punic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.35.29 (talk) 17:24, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you seen List of Berbers? I'll remove Clodius. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 18:59, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

This just proves why we should get rid of the collage of "famous Berbers" and replace it with a generic ethnic photo. --Folantin (talk) 15:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. Dougweller (talk) 16:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I suspect the apparent confusion about Severus stems from different interpretations and standards of ethnicity. Neither Italian nor Punic (Lebanese) people are Berbers, but some sources say Severus was about one quarter "Libyan". Some sources claim the Greeks called the Berbers "Libyans", and so Severus was quite probably one-quarter Berber. However some people (including some scholars) still apply the "one-drop" rule when determining "race", so its probable that many of the sources are aware that Severus was only one-quarter Berber but in their minds this makes him "all-Berber". I feel the sources can be better reconciled by wording the paragraph accordingly. Wdford (talk) 01:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Splitting article

Since the article is to long I am breaking it into Two Sections Nomatic Berbers and Farming Berbers. Berber Pirate (talk) 04:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

What happened to the sections on population genetics. Wapondaponda (talk) 06:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I think this split is a really terrible idea. I'm not sure that "nomatic" is even a word. I think a better daughter article would have been "Origins of the Berbers" or perhaps "History of the Berbers", but this particular split is dreadful. I really think a bit more discussion would have been a good idea. Wdford (talk) 11:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Changement of article::

The article of "autosomal DNA" has to be deleted , because someone changed it from its original text (of genetician's conclusions) by its own interpretation. This article should be protected from Afro-centrist propagandas.Ekarfi13

Imazighen::

"Imazighen" plural of "Amazigh" is commonly considered as the international term for Berber by Berber cultural administration. "Berber" is a foreign word , which Berbers don't consider it to be their own name.Ekarfi13

Berber Population in Algeria

I know there's a reference but the berber population in Algeria is not 4.3 million as indicated, its much more than that. There's at least 6 million Kabyle people alone in Algeria, and about 3-4 million Chaouis and Touaregs. I didn't want to edit the article but I think its something that should be looked at.TonyStarks (talk) 08:14, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

berber pirate sock of Sophian

Berber Pirate is a sockpuppet of banned Sophian. Unfortunately, a deep revert may be necessary to undo his edits which involved moving large chunks of text. Apologies to anyone whose subsequent edits may be undone in the process. We can work incorporate some of the edits back into the article. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:42, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I have listed one of the articles he created for deletion here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Farming Berbers. Wapondaponda (talk) 10:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Pope Miltiades

reference to Pope Miltiades also being a Berber - should it go in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.33.227.17 (talk) 03:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The Table

Source is needed for the data about the numbers of Berber people in Israel. As a citizen of Israel for myself, I don't know about any major concentration of Berber people there (I never met even single one in Israel)-or that one was meaning to the Mizrahi Jews communities whose origins are from north Africa and are consider to be the descendents of many Berber tribes who converted to Judaism (as well as descendents of Jews from Israel)?.--Gilisa (talk) 16:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Jews are Jews , and are considered as an ethnic group. the only Jews who can be seen as "berbers" are these who originated from berber region of N.Africa. However , 80 % or more of North African Jews spoke Arabic (and way back then Ladino was also present , and way again back Punic*). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.96.27 (talk) 03:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

zidane

"Berbers are the indigenous peoples of North Africa west of the Nile Valley", last time i've checked Marseille was not in the Nile Valley, hence Zidane is not Berber but French, French born of Berber ancestries. His parents were Berbers but they moved from Kabylia to France (and probably applied to French citizenship). I guess you can't get it all, thanks for using only accurate infos in this article. Cliché Online (talk) 08:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The numbers and Nuclearxynthia's edit

I was tempted to use the SF Chronicle article (cited in the lead) to verify that there were 20 million Berbers, but there are problems here, and Nuclearxynthia, this is why I reverted your edit. First things first: Nuclearxynthia, you stated 85% live in Morocco. Well, if you do the math from the SF Chronicle article, you actually get 90 percent--60% of Morocco's 30 million, that's 18 million; the article has 20 million Berbers in all, so Morocco would have 90%. Close enough to your 85%? However, the article also states that Berbers make up 25% of Algeria's population, and that, in 2009, was 35 million, so Berbers in Algeria number almost 9 million--and that does not jive with the above numbers, since there are only 2 million "left" outside of Morocco. In other words, I cannot accept the authority of the numbers in the SF Chronicle article, unfortunately. Drmies (talk) 05:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Protection

This article should definietely be protected from Afro-centrists. Ekarfi13

• You should start explaining your edits. The many changes you make without any kind of explanation are highly disruptive. Try communicating, or risk being accused of vandalism yourself, as your own talk page verifies. Drmies (talk) 08:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

The original article said "Arabic" and you changed it into "Darija" , can you explain me why? or isn't this vandalism? On the other way , I didn't edit anything , I only re-edit the original articles which were vandalized before! Ekarfi13

If you don't stop deleting all the sourced information on genetics in this and other articles you will be blocked. If you want to change "Darija" to "Arabic" go ahead, but stop deleting whole sourced article sections on genetics, and replacing them with your unsourced opinion. Jayjg ^(talk) 11:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree it should be protected from Afro-centrists right now!:::

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommy symbol (talk • contribs) 20:26, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Genetics and the Origin of Berbers

Y-chromosome

The Y-chromosome genetic structure of the Berber population seems to be mainly Modulated by geography, The Y-DNA Haplogroups E and J, which are so common among the population of North African and the Middle East, Haplogroups E and J, are the most widespread among North African groups especially E1b1b1b (E-M81, formerly E3b1b) which is typical of the indigenous Berbers of North-West Africa. In some parts of Morocco E1b1b1b can peak at 80% of the population, its observe in both Arab and Berber-speakers, Followed by Haplogroup J especially J1 which is typically Middle Eastern, its highest density is Founded in the Southwestern Arabian Peninsula, it's also observe among North African Arab and Berber-speakers. Followed by Haplogroup R1 it has been observed in North African though with lower frequency.

Dear Iadrian yu ""why Reverted MY edits what's Wrong Please in light""  ???

What is your source for this material? Also, please explain the other changes you made. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:56, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

There are indigenous Berbers i.e. E1b1b1b (E-M81, formerly E3b1b) which is typical of the indigenous Berbers ,and There are culturally Berbers i.e. Haplogroup J especially J1 Followed by Haplogroup R1 .

Haplogroup J especially J1 is Founded in Algeria (35%), Tunisia (31%), its most frequent in the Southwestern Arabian Peninsula especially Yemen(76%) Haplogroup R1 is also found in North Africa where its frequency surpasses 10% in some parts of Algeria

The data confirm that North Africa has mainly been a recipient of gene flow from African and Asian surroundingareas, thus because of Haplogroup J & Haplogroup R1 The Y-chromosome genetic structure of the Berber population seems to be mainly Modulated by geography. For example in the Berber Kabyle Genetics E1b1b1b (E-M81) is frequently founded (i.e.indigenous),J1 is founded, R1*(xR1a) is founded.

Haplogroups E and J have been detected as the largest haplogroups in North African and the Middle East in ME J is larger Followed by E, in NA E is larger Followed by J . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommy symbol (talk • contribs) 21:48, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

This Abstract is simple thus ,making it essayer for everyone. The other changes were made because this Abstract is the key for understanding Genetics and the Origin of Berber people.

Note : There is no pure ethnicity only if thy were living in an isolated island and thy also could be mixed.

fore example the Phoenicians (J2 and J1),the Romans,Roman Arabia ,etc... this are all a case in point that shows the historic and significant relation between North African and the Middle East.

the Greek historian Herodotus wrote in the 5th century BC, that the Phoenicians themselves were Arab tribes from the Arabian shores of the Red Sea.

Roman Arabia became the ideological power base for Septemius Severus in the Roman Near East. Arabia became such a symbol of loyalty to Severus and the empire, according to Bowersock , that during his war against Clodius Albinus, in Gaul, Syrian opponents propagated a rumour that the Third Cyrenaica legion controlling Arabia Petraea had defected. That it would matter to an issue in France/Gaul that a single legion in a backwater province on the other side of the empire would rebel indicates the political sway that Arabia had amassed.

Lastly: The Arab conquest of the Middle East, North Africa, and to a lower extent Sicily and southern Spain, spread J1 and J2 in lesser extent far further than Arabia.

What do the sources explicitly state regarding Berbers? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:56, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

it states :

1- that the test where done on the population of North Africa 2- and in both Arab and Berber-speakers I gave you an example in the Berber Kabyle Genetics E1b1b1b (E-M81) is frequently founded (i.e.indigenous),J1 is founded, R1*(xR1a) is founded.

What more do you need .(Tommy symbol (talk) 04:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)).

What states that? Can you explain which study you are referring to? Jayjg ^(talk) 05:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I am busy today I will respond after a week. however, Dear Jayjg what's the problem, furthermore the Discussion on Genetics and the Origin of Berbers is more important than Barbary pirates(Tommy symbol (talk) 05:59, 21 June 2010 (UTC)).

Photos

I find the photos put are not representive of Berbers at all except the one of Zidane.user:Ekarfi13