Talk:Kosovo

A plea for common sense

History, ladies and gentlemen, is happening, right now, in Kosovo.

For over a millennium blood has been spilled as the Great Empires fought, and their soldiers died, in Kosovo. The First Bulgarian Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Serbian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Austrian Empire and finally the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes later renamed Yugoslavia, all had their time of pre-eminence.

But now, Kosovo is free, a free country for a free people, its independence judged lawful by the International Court of Justice, and its freedom recognised by a majority of European countries and the European Parliament as well.

In the world as a whole, a majority of the permanent members of the UN recognise Kosovo. Economically, Kosovo’s independence is recognised by countries accounting for over 70% of the world’s GDP.

Today many senior Serbian politicions, such as former Serbian Foreign Minister and former Yugoslav Deputy Prime Minister Vuk Draskovic, say Serbia should accept Kosovo's independence and look to the future, not back to the past.

The clock won’t be turned back – the only question for us Wikipedians is whether Wikipedia will reflect the facts as they are now, or as they once were, when Kosovo was a mere province of Serbia. 2007apm (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

That has got nothing to do with Wikipedia.

Also, majority of members of the UN do not recognize Kosovo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.110.243.185 (talk) 13:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

But on the other side, the ICJ, which is part of the UN, just recognized the Kosovar declaration of independence as legitimate.--201.81.203.135 (talk) 21:36, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Not quite. ICJ deemed that the declaration was not illegal under international law. They did not make a judgement on the legality of the independence itself. Bazonka (talk) 12:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I think nobody has ever seen something like “legal declaration of illegal independence”. This oxymoron is only possible in the heads of people who wants to split the truth to suit its deeds. The ICJ said that is was not illegal to Kosovo declare independence from Serbia… and what’s all about? It’s about Kosovo being a separate and independent nation, obviously!--201.81.207.240 (talk) 08:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The truth is that Serbia only asked the ICJ to give an opinion on the legality of the declaration. In my opinion they asked the wrong question, which led to a partial answer with no opinion on the legality of independence. Declaration and independence are two different, but related, things. For example, I could declare my house to be an independent state. No-one would arrest or prosecute me for saying that; but when I act upon my declaration, e.g. by not paying my taxes to the government, then I would be seen to be acting illegally. So yes, the ICJ did say that it was not illegal for Kosovo to declare independence, but this does not necessarily mean that the ICJ and UN etc. have acknowledged that Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia. I honestly don't know what decision they'd have made if this question had been asked. Bazonka (talk) 09:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

But when the home of more than 2 million Kosovars made the declaration, it has already paying no bills and no taxes to Serbian government since 1999. Serbia tried to disqualify the Kosovar independence as “a violation of international law” — but it was knocked out by the court.--201.81.207.240 (talk) 09:48, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

That may have been Serbia's intention, but they did not ask whether the independence was illegal, but whether the declaration was illegal. Bazonka (talk) 09:57, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The situation, as I see it, is that the people of Kosovo clearly have a right to self determination, and if they want to be independent, they have a right to be independent. Every international lawyer knows that, including the Serb lawyers, hence why Serbia did not ask the ICJ to rule on whether Kosovo has a right to independence.

Serbia, instead tried to win on a technicality – Serbia’s argument was that • The Declaration of Independence was declared by the Assembly of Kosovo • The Assembly was constituted by UNMIK • The Assembly only has the powers specifically granted to it • The power to amend the law regarding the constitutional status of Kosovo was not granted to The Assembly. • Hence any Declaration could not be legal as the Assembly has no power to adopt it.

However, any eagle eyed lawyer will quickly spot that for Serbia to win, it must prove that the author of the declaration was the Assembly of Kosovo.

The authors of the declaration clearly state that the are “We, the democratically elected leaders of our people...” (ie not “We, the Assembly of Kosovo..”) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7249677.stm (about half way down.)

In the judgement of the International Court of Justice, the “the authors of the declaration of independence of 17 February 2008 did not act as one of the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government within the Constitutional Framework, but rather as persons who acted together in their capacity as representatives of the people of Kosovo outside the framework of the interim administration.” http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/141/16010.pdf Section 2(a) The identity of the authors of the declaration of independence - Pages 11 & 12.

As UNMIK nor general international law contains any prohibition on a people declaring independence, the declaration was ruled lawful. 2007apm (talk) 17:30, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The Mongolian case

In the discussions in the topics here, we should remember the case of Mongolia.

What is today Mongolia is still de jure claimed by the Republic of China in Taipei as part of its territory. And there is not juts “one Mongolia” — there is also the Inner Mongolia, currently part of People’s Republic of China.

And despite all this, Mongolia points directly to the page of the country, which is not primarily described as a “disputed territory” or “region” but as an independent republic.--201.81.203.135 (talk) 10:17, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Not really comparable. Mongolia is only disputed due to a historical legal anomaly. These days, I'm sure no-one in Taiwan really considers that they are the legitimate rulers of Mongolia. And Mongolia the nation and Inner Mongolia are different places, unlike the two claims over Kosovo. Inner Mongolia is adequately covered by the disambiguation hatnote. Bazonka (talk) 12:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing like “historical legal anomaly” between texts of serious historians and scholars as far as we know. Mongolia had its way because of historical contexts (the fall and disintegration of the Qing and Russian Empires), but even in this case nobody protests the use of “Mongolia” to describe just the country called Mongolia. Today the Republic of China de facto doesn’t want to conquest Mongolia anymore, and somehow it doesn’t want to “retake the mainland” which includes Inner Mongolia, too, even tough the de jure claims were never officially repealed by Taipei’s government. We could even compare this situation to today’s Serbia, where there are lots of politicians and common people who acknowledge Serbia would not govern Kosovo again and don’t care anymore about this fact, and many people, clergymen, soldiers, policemen and politicians who want to stick to the current Serbian constitution and never renounce Kosovo because of that lost battle of 1389.

Anyway, my conclusion is that in the same way that the “Mongolia” title does not redirect to “Mongolia (region)” nor the article about Mongolia does not describe it primarily as a “disputed territory”, the same should apply to this article about Kosovo.--201.81.207.240 (talk) 09:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

PS: “the two claims over Kosovo” is not a reliable description of the situation on the ground, since Hashim Thaci’s government is not a mere “claimant” like some kind of government-in-exile; it resides in Pristina and rules completely more than 90% of the Kosovar people and territory, and partially in the are north of the Ibar river trough the Kosovar police and custom officers — a quite different situation from Goran Bogdanović’s.--201.81.207.240 (talk) 09:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Simple answer is that Mongolia is not primarily a disputed region - it is primarily an independent nation, secondly there's a Chinese province with a similar name, and lagging a long way behind is its disputed status. Kosovo is very much still in dispute, and this is of primary importance. Bazonka (talk) 10:00, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

"Kosovo is very much still in dispute" - there's a lot of opinion in that - on the ground (the so called de facto position) Kosovo is clearly independent and I don't think an yone would seriously dispute it. The de jure position is not as complicated as some make out - the people of Kosovo have a right to self determination and accordingly their declaration of independence was judged lawful by the International Court of Justice.2007apm (talk) 17:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

If Wikipedia had been around in 1950, the Mongolia title would have been subject to all sorts of disputes. This is 2010. Perhaps you want to come back in 2060, I am sure all the Kosovo issues will have been sorted out by then, and will be seen as a "historical anomaly". While the anomaly is "in progress", it cannot be shrugged off as "just an anomaly", under WP:CRYSTAL. --dab (𒁳) 12:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

(I wouldn't be so sure about 50 years being enough. Consider Israel and Palestine for a case in point.—Emil J. 13:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC))

POV

many reference sources are non link but, they are untrusted like link 50.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albanx (talk • contribs) 22:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I entered a verification needed since you raised the concern. [3]. I have that concern myself. In general we WP:AGF the editors in wikipedia: I believe someone will come sooner or later and clarify how reliable the source is. --Sulmues ^(talk) 22:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Ottoman Kosovo, Cirkovic is a biased source

Frederick F. Anscombe in a recent study published, where he gained new information from Ottoman records cast light to many issues concerning that period. It also shows that current history shown by Serbian historians is a basic myth for Serbian nationalism. The study shows that there was no major migration by Serbs (any small migration was done by both Albanians and Serbs), population and ethnicity was not very significant, also the Albanian population was present during the whole period... More info here. The part should be rewritten on a more objective discourse. —Anna Comnena (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

We have 6 references from Cirkovic: which alternative sources would you suggest? --Sulmues ^(talk) 22:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Wickers, Anscombe, Malcolm... —Anna Comnena (talk) 11:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Anna, thank you so much for this find, I enjoyed reading every page. Best 30+ pages I've read this entire year. It's a great analysis

of the Kosovo Story/Myth we hear spewed from Serbs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.198.186 (talk) 03:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I have used that material before in Great Serb Migrations article, but website references overflood what was supposed to be a serious topic. Aigest (talk) 06:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Histroy - Second world war

The second paragraph is clearly biased and had dubious sources, I hope someone can verify source 49 and 52, as for Dimitrije Bogdanovic, how on earth can nationalist be a reliable source, it should at least be written in the form "according to...", personaly I have never heard of such a declaration being made by Mustafa Kruja --Cradel (talk) 01:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

There is Kosovar police in the north

Assailants throw hand grenade at police station in Kosovo's tense north — So how long Kosovo will still be treated in the article as a mere "disputed territory, partially-controlled…" instead of a country?--201.81.201.75 (talk) 03:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

True [4] [5][6]-- LONTECH  Talk  22:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• I agree, this article is lacking in neutrality and fairness, and it is a shame on the Arbitration Committee which does nothing but preventing editors from making the just edits. The introduction must say that Kosovo is a state that is partially recognized and that Serbia refuses to recognize it. THAT'S IT. it's very simple, if there is a dispute, then the introduction MUST be inclusive, and the dispute itself shall be represented in the article in terms of information, not in terms of one-sided truth. shame! Maysara (talk) 01:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

• So true, this article is overly pro serbian. And this is due to a biased admin with an agenda who calls everyone an albanian nationalist when people try to change this. Look in the history and you will find his name. As long as this admin is not blocked from this article nothing will change. --188.99.179.90 (talk) 12:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

• Please tell me his name and I shall do something about politely and nicely, because we are all civil and just here! I assure you if what you say is true, then i will address the issue politely and calmly, because all admins are nice and benevolent! thank you, Maysara (talk) 17:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Meeso, perhaps instead of throwing around death threats, you make a suggestion of how to improve balance? The article already says Kosovo is partially-recognized, so I don't really see what you are complaining about. Obviously the article will keep saying the status of Kosovo is disputed for as long as it is disputed in real life. In concrete terms, this means that as soon as the Russians say they accept Kosovo's independence, all other obstacles will go away as well. So please whine to the Russians instead of trolling Wikipedia. --dab (𒁳) 12:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)