Talk:David Miller (sociologist)

Working Group on Syria, Propaganda and Media

Should this also cover his involvement with the Working Group on Syria, Propaganda and Media, which Amnesty & others have criticised as a channel for pro-Assad and pro-Russian disinformation re Syria? Huff Post Andy Dingley (talk) 12:30, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

@Dingley: Absolutely it should. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

use of sources for the "open letter"

The policy on this point is clear: we should prefer secondary sources. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:07, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Undue?

"Miller has attended and spoken at multiple events headed by the Islamic Human Rights Commission,[26] which organised the annual Quds Day march in London. Prior to 2015, some of these marches featured flags of the Lebanese political party and militant group Hezbollah,[27] which was added to the UK's list of terror groups in February 2019.[28]

Attended events of IHRC (who organized marches, did Miller attend?). At some marches before 2015, sometimes a Hezbollah flag was displayed. What is this, long distance guilt by association? Selfstudier (talk) 19:20, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

It’s the “long bow” school of Wikipediaism. It is also synthesis as the second sentence is sourced to articles which don’t mention Miller. The first sentence is not well sourced as it is a list of articles on the Islamic HumanRights Commission website that mention the term “David Miller”. It would be appropriate to mention Miller’s support or connection to the IHRC if we could find proper references. Burrobert (talk) 19:50, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I've been bold and removed it for now. Miller was present at the launch of the IHRC report into Islamophobia in 2015 (so was Peter Oborne) and he was a keynote speaker at a IHRC conference in 2016, along with dozens of others, including Yvonne Ridley. I'll have a look for further coverage of any association he may have/have had with IHRC, if it's notable it'll be there. As for the Quds march, unless he organised it what's the relevance? None. :) --DSQ (talk) 09:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I've found a list on Millers' website Lectures, Papers And Talksand the only other ref I can find to the IHRC is a seminar he attended in 2007. I've been unable to find any other coverage which mentions his keynote appearance or his attendance at the Islamophobia report launch. I've also added an undue weight tag to the article - the majority of this BLP covers a three week period of his life and, whilst the events are notable, the coverage is far too detailed imo. --DSQ (talk) 10:50, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I support the removal of the sentence "Miller has attended and spoken at multiple events headed by the Islamic Human Rights Commission" until we can find a suitable source. You are also correct about the coverage of that short period being undue because of its "depth of detail" and "quantity of text". We can either trim that section or try to expand the rest of the bio. Burrobert (talk) 20:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Burrobert. I'm still looking for sources that cover Millers' ties with IHRC but so far I've come up with his own website, the IHRC website, and their YouTube channel - nothing else. I guess we could use those sources to support a brief mention? Having said that, he's spoken at dozens of events over the years around radicalisation, terrorism, Islamophobia, lobbying, media spin, etc - so I'm pondering why the IHRC was singled out for mention. Odd. :) With regards to the undue coverage of recent events, I was thinking we could trim it down a bit, I personally think there's an overuse of both quotes and detail and the entire section could certainly be more succinct. I'll wait and see if anyone else wants to chime in before I do a "bold" on it. --DSQ (talk) 09:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Belated agreement with DSQ & Burrobert for removing the IHRC stuff which involves synthesis and reliance on primary sources. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:36, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I could support some trimming -- especially of statements by individuals (as against group efforts). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:55, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Agree there might be excessive opinions of individuals, e.g. Kamm, York, Bouattia, "Media Guido", unless secondary sources refer to these. (York reporting is RS for fact, but his opinion is not really due.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:36, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I'd remove the "Syrian Civil War" section completely. His links to the Working Group on Syria, Propaganda and Media can be adequately covered in the "Career Section" and the opinions of Kamm and York should be in the article about the group - not in a BLP. If readers want to know more about the group, they can click on the wikilink and go there. :) I'd trim the second paragraph in the "Statements and activities" section slightly and remove the third paragraph in its entirety. I'm sure Finkelstein, Young & Guido Fawkes will offer further musings if/when the case actually goes anywhere. The opinion of his peers and colleagues is relevant, random journalists not so much. I'm not too sure about the final paragraph - the letter was signed by less than one-tenth of MP's and Peers. As for expanding on his career, there's lots of info that might be useful, but it'll take me some time to collate it and look for sources to back it up. If we trim down the sections as I've suggested and expand the career section, it'll appear more balanced and more like an actual BLP. Let me know what you think. --DSQ (talk) 17:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Syrian stuff is one of main grounds for his noteworthiness, but might not require own section. However, not sure it's relevant to his academic career as it is activism that spills past border of his area of expertise. "Statements and activities" is an odd title. Agree second para could be shorter. Third (& 4th/5th) para also probably trimmable. Secondary source debate (start of 3rd para) may be due. View of individual local MP (para.3) and of APPG (para.6) view seems noteworthy as reported in independent secondary RSs (respnse may not be - see WP:MANDY), but APPG para might include overlong verbatim quotes. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:36, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

We should remove anything expect basic information that is not sourced to reliable secondary sources and anything whose source doesn't mention Miller. TFD (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry to pick this up after a delay. I agree that this is a very odd page, and also with lots of the specifics here. So that would mean deleting a) the third and fifth paragraphs in full (the Bouattia opinion piece not being a RS); b) presumably anything from the Electronic Intifada (as per [1] (I gather from this TheJC is considered legit? [2]; c) presumably the block quote from the "Support David Miller" campaign which has been hyperlinked in (6th paragraph). What proportion of the block quotes in the 4th paragraph should stay? Finally, what is the view on the value of the Bristol Uni paper, The Tab, as a source of factual information? Thanks for the constructive work on what is definitely a delicate topic Publius In The 21st Century (talk) 04:17, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Not having heard much here, I had a go at bringing the page back into line. What do people think? Obviously very happy to discuss further and make consensus-driven amendments, emendations, or other alterations etc. Publius In The 21st Century (talk) 20:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)