Talk:Holden

Statesman status

"The Statesman marque lasted until 1984, when Holden abandoned the full-size luxury segment."

I don't think so. The LWB models have been with us with VN, VY and VE models. Can someone with more knowledge please review this whole article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.12.244.3 (talk) 03:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes the Statesman marque (brand) departed in 1984. Holden in 1990 reintroduced the Statesman, but as a Holden Statesman. Between 1971 and 1984, Holden marketed the "Holden Statesman" as the "Statesman", not as Holden. Regards. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

To clarify that comment, from 1971 to 1984 the Statesman marque (brand) was sold in three levels: Custom (un-badged, HQ only), Deville (HQ, HJ, HX, HZ & WB) & Caprice (HJ, HX, HZ & WB). The name Holden was not used on any of these cars. When the name Statesman was re-introduced IN 1990, it was part of the LWB (VN) Holden range sold in two levels: Holden Statesman & Holden Caprice. These went through the following series: VQ, VQII, VR, VS, WH, WK, WL & WM. These equated to VN, VP, VR, VS, VT/VX, VY, VZ & VE series Commodores. Terrybebb (talk) 02:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

A few additions or queries

1. In the 2nd paragraph of the opening section (re: historical production facilities), no mention is made of the fact that GM-H's second major assembly plant back the FX/FJ days, was Fisherman's Bend itself. It ceased use when Dandenong was opened in 1956, when the FE came on stream. This should be added. Also all Holden's local engines were & still are, made at the Fisherman's Bend engine foundry & plant. The Fisherman's Bend assembly plant does get a mention the '40s' section, but it should be added to list of factories in the opening section.

2. The spelling of Fisherman's bend is another query. It always was Fisherman's, but I understand that it has now been altered to Fishermen's (e instead of a)(or even Fishermens, without the apostrophe). Can anybody help with that one.

3. In the '50s' section, the FJ is listed with "A new horizontally slatted grille dominated the front-end of the FJ, which had other trim changes, along with a large rear window, but no changes were made to the body panels." Are you saying that the FJ's rear window was larger or different to that of the 48 sedan's? AFAIK it did not change. Also the bonnet & both front guard body panel pressings WERE altered to accommodate the new grille design.

4. In the '60s' HD sales figures are called into question, with this statement: "This series, unlike its predecessor did not garner significant sales and Holden responded in 1966 with the HR , selling over 250,000 units in two years. Actually the HD was not a sales flop, in fact May 1965 was Holden highest sales month in history. In absence of this literature, one only has to look at the gross sales figures. The EJ series sold 154,811 units in 13 months (11,909 per month). The EH sold 256,959 in 18 months (14,276 per month). The HD sold 178,927 in 14 months (12,871 per month) & the HR sold 252,352 in 21 months (12,017 per month), less per month than for the HD!! There was also the fact that the EH commercials were continued on into the HD for 6 months, inhibiting HD's possible sales & reducing, in real numbers EH figures per month. There was also an economic downturn in 1965/66, as every manufacturers sales dropped. My overall point about the HD being unpopular & a sales flop is that is simply not true. Sure they are not popular nowadays, the same can said for FB/EKs in the 70s & 80s & some early Commodores currently. In 1965, they were considered by both the public & motoring writers to be very modern & many liked they fact that they were far more roomy than the EH. Some controversy surrounded the pointy front & rear guards, but this didn't seem to affect sales. Most of this HD thing is just the opinion of modern day motoring writers who were not in the business in 1965. I think this section should be re-worded.

5. In the '60s' section the The Philippines & Pakistan should be added to those countries receiving CKD packs.

6. In the '70s', the first paragraph mentions the Tri-Matic factory being opened in 1970 & the new transmission debuting in the HG. The Tri-Matic factory actually opened some time in 1969 & the LC Torana was the first series Holden to receive the new transmission when it was released in October 1969. The Tri-Matic was also 'phased in' in later HT production as Powerglide stock was exhausted, but GM-H's official line was that the HG was the first full-size Holden to receive it.

7. Mention could also be made of the deal between GM-H & Mazda to export HJ & HX Premiers (without powertrain) to be fitted with Rotary engines & many other accessories & sold on the Japanese market as the Mazda Roadpacer.

8. In the '80's' section, the Rodeo introduction is mentioned, but the Jackaroo (4WD wagon) & the Shuttle van (also both Isuzu-sourced), are not.

9. Also this: "with engines confined to a single plant in Port Melbourne, Victoria." GM-H's engines were always built only at the Port Melbourne (Fishermen's Bend).

10. The LB Astra (N12 Nissan Pulsar re-badge) was released in 1984, not 1985.

11. In the '90s' section: "Holden updated the Statesman and Caprice with a range of improvements, including the introduction of four-wheel anti-lock brakes,[81] although a rear-wheel system had been standard on the Statesman Caprice from March 1976." It should be added that the modern ABS was the electronic Bosch patent system (ABS being a registered name) & operated on 4-wheel discs , while the old Delco-Moraine system used in the HJ/HX Statesmans was essentially an electro-mechanical system operating only on rear drum brakes.

Not knocking the article, it is a very good read. Just trying to improve it. (Terrybebb (talk) 03:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC))

Thanks for pointing all of this out Terry. Have implemented some changes already, with the rest to be done another day.

1. Comment: Fishermens Bend is mentioned in the introduction, but I refer to Fishermens Bend as Port Melbourne as that is the "modern" name. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

2. Have the same issue, hence why I changed to the Port Melbourne name. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

4. Done OSX (talk • contributions) 03:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

5. Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

9. Rephrased to, "with engines as before, confined to a single plant in Port Melbourne, Victoria." OSX (talk • contributions) 04:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

10. Don't ask how that one crept in. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

After a bit of further research, it looks like Fisherman's Bend was the official suburb name at some time in the past (even though GM-H have referred to it regularly). Nowadays Fishermens Bend is just part of Port Melbourne, so maybe if we refer to as the Fishermens Bend plant in Port Melbourne. (Terrybebb (talk) 12:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC))

I have fixed this up on both the Holden and Port Melbourne, Victoria articles. For the latter, I included the name change as well. OSX (talk • contributions) 22:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

O.K., the rest of the issues/requests have been implemented, except for number 11. I feel that this is far to much detail for an overview article such as this. I have however, included this information to the Statesman (automobile) article. OSX (talk • contributions) 03:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that the 'point 11" information that was coped from here and pasted into the Statesman page really makes sense as is. GTHO (talk) 10:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

(indent reset) That was a dodgy job, you're right! That's what happens when you do write something in half a minute without proofreading. OSX (talk • contributions) 22:54, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

We still seem to have an unwelcome paragraph in the HJ section of the Statesman page, ie

11. In the '90s' section: "Holden updated the Statesman and Caprice with a range of improvements, including the introduction of four-wheel anti-lock brakes,[81] although a rear-wheel system had been standard on the Statesman Caprice from March 1976." It should be added that the modern ABS was the electronic Bosch patent system (ABS being a registered name) & operated on 4-wheel discs , while the old Delco-Moraine system used in the HJ/HX Statesmans was essentially an electro-mechanical system operating only on rear drum brakes.

GTHO (talk) 11:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about that GTHO, I copy-and-pasted that over as a basis for my information, and forgot to remove it. I think everything is fine now. Please double check, as I seem to be having a very bad run here. OSX (talk • contributions) 02:51, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Looks OK now. Thanks. GTHO (talk) 00:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Holden Nbr 2 million

I think, from a slightly unhelpful press shot, that the two millionth Holden, driven off the production line with much ceremony by the boss and a senior politician in 1969, was a Holden HK Brougham. But I'm not sure. Does anyone know for certain, please? Charles01 (talk) 19:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this milestone number was infact a HK Brougham. I do have a quick question for you though. Regarding your recent addition, could you please tell me the author of the Autocar article "News and Views: Hon I Sinclair, Federal Minister of Shipping and Transport, and A.D.Rea, managing director of GMH, drive the 2,000,000th Holden off the production line"? If this is not listed, could you tell me the name of the editor? Thanks. OSX (talk • contributions) 02:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

File:Holden HK Brougham 1968-1969 01.jpg—here is the actual 2 millionth model, a 1969 HK Brougham. OSX (talk • contributions) 03:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, in the title, Alexander Rhea's name in misspelt as "Rea". Is this your error or Autocar's? OSX (talk • contributions) 04:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Autocar spells the gentleman's name A.D. Rea, (and it calls him managing director of GMH - presumably GM-Holden?) so I suppose strictly speaking the foot note citation might include a (sic). Hardly seems worth it, however. Quietly correcting the spelling (assuming you're sure) probably makes more sense. It might be useful for someone with ready access to sufficient sources to kick off a little wiki-entry about A.D.R(h)ea. Or? I think I did something similar with Donald Stokes (and one or two slightly less in your face auto industry bosses from this side of the planet) a couple of years back, and those entries have since morphed into something quite informative...

The news page - two pages in a good week - in Autocar came without an author's name. In fact this particular little para was included as the caption to a picture of a rather fuzzy picture of (1) the car, (2) the big men and (3) a few other men accumulated for the background who've evidently been told to grin. I guess the page was set up by whoever had a few hours to assemble, cut and dice press releases received that week or, failing that, by the ship's cat. In such circumstances yes, you could enter the name of the magazine's editor. In the case of Autocar at this time, that would be "Peter Garnier (ed)".

Regards Charles01 (talk) 07:54, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

1856

Am I losing my marbles, or was Holden really originated in 1856, I was always believing that Opel was the oldest, 1863.

Marauder09 (talk) 00:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Holden was in fact established in 1856 as a saddlery business. I was not until 20th century that Holden moved into the business of automobiles (see: Holden#Early history). OSX (talk • contributions) 03:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I see, same thing with auto makers like Studebaker , Peugeot, Opel, and Mercedes I presume, or something similar, like starting as a Tractor buisness, or whatever. Marauder09 (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I hope this change clarifies your initial concern [1]. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:24, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"History of the marque" or "History of the company"?

Should we change the section heading "History of the marque" to "History of the company"? The section covers the production of saddles, sidecar bodies, Fords, Vauxhalls, Chevrolets etc which are all outside of the history of Holden as a marque. GTHO (talk) 00:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Now "History of the company". OSX (talk • contributions) 01:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Citation failure

The Holden#Davis, Kennedy, Kennedy links do not lead anywhere. Using {{Harvnb}} would be one way to solve this issue.  Skomorokh  08:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Thank you for pouting that out. OSX (talk • contributions) 08:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Astra & Combo post Opel sale

Does anyone have an update on the future of these two cars after the imminent sale of the Opel/Vauxhall division by GM ? Passportguy (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The Astra in Australia is basically dead. This is the latest new information published:

“Astra’s been a great car for us … but the reality is … we have to do what we have to do to get profitable in the marketplace,” said Holden marketing director Alan Batey. “We’re not going to build cars here to make a loss.” “Your marketing dollars can only go so far. We had a Viva in a sedan, hatchback and wagon. We had an Astra hatchback, coupe, twin-top, sedan and wagon. “Half of our problem was proliferation.” Asked if Astra was unlikely to continue in Australia, Batey said: “in the environment we’re in today the answer’s yes”. Batey said the Cruze was crucial for the success of Holden. “150 per cent of our focus is on launching this car (Cruze).” Holden will begin building a localised version of the Cruze alongside the Commodore from 2010. Holden has more than a month’s stock of Astras still to sell, but most were built in 2008 and are being sold at a discount to the recommended retail price. “They were bought in before the (foreign exchange) rate turned,” said Batey.

— Toby Hagon, drive.com.au, May 19, 2009

There is all this talk about Opel and Vauxhall being sold off. GM is not doing that. They are basically trying to raise money by allowing a third party to take a stake in GM Europe (like how GM Holden only owns 50% of GM Daewoo). There are even hints that Saab might not be sold now (Next Saab 9-5 So Good, GM CEO Fritz Henderson Doesn’t Want to Sell Swedish Automaker). The reason (in my opinion) why the Astra is being canned in the new Holden Cruze. Here you have a high-quality (for the price) small car with six airbags and ESP for $20,990, and a six-speed automatic option for $2000—the competition are offering four- and five-speed boxes. The Cruze is at least equal to the current Astra in terms of mechanicals—it has the same engines, better transmissions and they both lack IRS.

The Astra would have to sell at the same price as the Cruze at the least, but economics and current exchange rates wont allow that. There is talk that after the GFC, Holden will launch Cadillac (highly likely) and possibly another brand like Buick or Opel (speculation). Simply confusing customers with multiple segment offerings like Astra and Cruze, Captiva and Captiva MaXX, et cetera is not the way to go. I can safely say that with a second brand, the Astra will come to Australia. But also remember that Holden producing a new small car from next year, and this could all well be the all new Astra.

As for the Combo, this is produced in Spain, and it may not be so greatly affected by currency (I don't actually know). Considering that it is based on the previous generation Opel Corsa/Barina, all I can speculate is that its days are probably numbered. OSX (talk • contributions) 00:32, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. But i think you might have misunderstood my question a bit. A short re-cap of what the current plans for Open/Vauxhall are :

GM will sell assets comprising essentially the Opel and Vauxhall brands to a consortium led by Magna. The division "GM Europe" is not being sold as a whole. This means that for the time being Saab will remain with GM and more likely than not will be closed. What will happen to GM Europe headquarters in Zurich and the GM plant in St. Petersburg is unclear at this point, as is whether GM will retain a minority stake in the new Opel/Vauxhall company.

Once Opel/Vauxhall are sold, Holden will no longer be able to sell Opel-based cars under its brand unless it obtains a license from the new owners. In the long term that makes a continuation of Opel-based Holdens unlikely. This is more a question of licensing than of exchange rates. Passportguy (talk) 00:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Opel/Vauxhall is not going to be separated from GM as far as I know, GM just wants another company to buy a percentage stake in it because they are essentially broke. I seriously doubt GM will relinquish the right to sell their own vehicles. OSX (talk • contributions) 01:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Opel/Vauxhall will most certainly be separated from GM if the proposed deal is to go through. This is the primary precondition for any money/loan guarantees being put forward by the German government, which is very much concerned that any money paid to a Opel/Vauxhall still part of GM will end up in the US. Without such a loan, the Magna deal would be off, and Opel/Vauxhall wopuld go into Chapter 11 with GM. GM#s right to sell it's other brands will not be affected and will continue through Daewoo/Chevrolet dealerships Passportguy (talk) 01:36, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Opel will separated, but still majority owned by GM. Also, since Magna does not produce automobiles (only parts), I doubt whether they will have anything to do with restricting the sale of Opels within GM (unlike Fiat, who wanted Opel for their actual cars—half the reason why negotiations between Fiat and GM stalled). OSX (talk • contributions) 01:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

(indent reset) I don't think there is any chance that GM will retain a majority stake. From what I have heard 35 % has been proposed, and even that is highly controvertial. Again, Opel will not get any money if GM retains a majority stake, so this would kill off the current Magna deal.

In my opinion the Fiat deal stalled because German politicians were again not happy with supporting another car manufacturer in financial difficultly, fearing that the money would be siphoned off to Italy. Passportguy (talk) 01:54, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you on the second point (Fiat deal stalling), but I cannot see GM separating itself too far away from its second largest division. Without Opel, GM is really a U.S./Asia/Australia-only company. Chevrolet in Europe is not key brand. 02:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you that GM doesn't want this but at this point I don't think they've got a choice. It's really a choice of either selling Opel and have European governments pick up the tab for the massive debts of Opel or keep it and come up with the money itself. Passportguy (talk) 02:13, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Sadly, what you are saying might be true. In NA, the first decent GM car in years was the 2007 Cadillac CTS. The Malibu seems fairly average, and the Buick Encalve is not quite there yet either. The new Chevy Equinox looks like a winner, as does everything else launched since the second half on 2008 onwards.

Opel has also improved by leaps and bounds recently (new Astra, Insignia), although they always had decent cars. Because of this, I think GM can turn around because of new product. A certain level of regional autonomy is need for all GM's subsidiaries, as the "American way" is not always the way to go outside of America. OSX (talk • contributions) 02:25, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Government Motors gets 35% of Opel. I imagine Opel will happily sell their cars via Holden dealers, but there are exchange rate issues. Greglocock (talk) 07:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

"As part of the deal, Magna would take over 20 per cent of the new company, which would become Canada's biggest automaker, while Russia's Sberbank would have a 35 per cent stake, GM would keep another 25 per cent and employees would secure 10 per cent." — drive.com.au. OSX (talk • contributions) 01:26, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Well either drive got it wrong or all the other papers did (note that drive's numbers don't add up). Whichever, GM do NOT get a majority share which was your claim. Greglocock (talk) 01:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

GM bankruptcy, Opel sold, etc

So what's happening with Holden, now that Opel's been sold (along with Hummer, Saturn and Saab (and Vauxhall)) and GM is bankrupt? 70.29.212.226 (talk) 00:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

The bailout laws specifically forbid GM USA from bailing out foreign subsidiaries. Holden operates at a loss. Holden gets a lot of its engineering from Opel, and will have to pay for that in future. That's why Holden have announced that there will not be any new models of the Commodore (Recent Go Auto article, there will only be incremental upgrades). The assembly plant will be getting a lot of dollars from the SA government (about $100 million per year, or say $10000 per worker, per year), or they will vanish. Fishermens Bend is not viable as a product development centre as the main market, GM USA, will be under intense pressure to localise PD. The strong point is their experience with part outsourcing to China, That will continue. One of their competitors will buy Lang Lang as thye both need another durability track and they are very expensive to build from scratch. As usual the better Holden engineers will be hired by their competitors. Basically Holden will survive as an importer of Asian cars with Holden badges stuck on them, and a Chinese part sourcing operation for GM USA. If SA are willing to subsidise them then the Commodore will survive, but the chassis etc will only see incremental changes. A new Commodore will cost between 0.7 and 1.1 billion dollars, no government will provide that. No government will pay for racing car development so the Commodores will become more uncompetitive, they will have to get the technology and budgets frozen by AVESA, I doubt Ford will object. Then Toyota will buy the Commodore V8s and that'll be the end of Supercar. Greglocock (talk) 01:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

This is the biggest load of crap I have ever read in my life. I am sorry to be blunt, but it's true. Even if you said this about Ford Australia, it would still be biggest load of crap I have ever. By the way, when was the last time Ford Australia made a profit? With no export programme except a few Falcon sales in NZ and Territorys in Thailand and SA, I would say Ford's future looks grimmer. I would hate for either local maker to pack up, but your response above seem to suggest you don't feel this way. Sad really. OSX (talk • contributions) 10:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Sadly I have references for a lot of that, apart from lang lang and the common sense stuff, and I'll admit the supercar stuff is pure speculation. So quit sooking. FoA is free to operate at a loss as FUS has not taken bailout money, therefore it can decide whether to subsidize overseas subsidiaries (have you wondered why they do that?). GM can't, as of now. As it happens FoA operates at a small loss or a small profit, like Holden, and just like Holden, was last profitable in 2005. Incidentally you obviously don't have the faintest idea how FoA generates money, big clue we are /recruiting/ engineers. Why on earth you think building cars for export in Oz is a good idea given our high wages(I am paid more than US engineers on the same grade, and I'm pretty sure the CAD guys are as well) and high steel prices beats me. That thinking is why GM is where it is. Personally I don't want any government to support failed car companies, it doesn't work (i'd be intrigued to hear of any counterexamples). Greglocock (talk) 11:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Step by step-

The bailout laws specifically forbid GM USA from bailing out foreign subsidiaries. FACT

Holden operates at a loss. FACT

Holden gets a lot of its engineering from Opel, and will have to pay for that in future. FACT/SYNTHESIS (Opel will have to provide help to Holden at normal commercial rates since GM only has a minority stake in Opel)

That's why Holden have announced that there will not be any new models of the Commodore (Recent Go Auto article, there will only be incremental upgrades).FACT

The assembly plant will be getting a lot of dollars from the SA government (about $100 million per year, or say $10000 per worker, per year), or they will vanish. SYNTHESIS -based on Holden losing around $100M a year, an eyeballed average

Fishermens Bend is not viable as a product development centre as the main market, GM USA, will be under intense pressure to localise PD. FACT

The strong point is their experience with part outsourcing to China,FACT That will continue. CRYSTAL BALL

One of their competitors will buy Lang Lang as thye both need another durability track and they are very expensive to build from scratch. GUESSWORK

As usual the better Holden engineers will be hired by their competitors. HISTORICAL FACT

Basically Holden will survive as an importer of Asian cars with Holden badges stuck on them, and a Chinese part sourcing operation for GM USA. SYNTHESIS based on history and trends.

If SA are willing to subsidise them then the Commodore will survive, but the chassis etc will only see incremental changes. FACT

A new Commodore will cost between 0.7 and 1.1 billion dollars, FACT no government will provide that.REASONABLE GUESS

No government will pay for racing car development so the Commodores will become more uncompetitive, they will have to get the technology and budgets frozen by AVESA, I doubt Ford will object. Then Toyota will buy the Commodore V8s and that'll be the end of Supercar. SPECULATION

So instead of squealing like a baby, do the research. Greglocock (talk) 12:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot the engine plant. I'd say that is a succesful and viable export program because the resulting product is of high value compared with the inputs, and the labour content is low. Greglocock (talk) 00:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting new bit. Holden owns a majority share of Daewoo, 28%(late correction) is owned by a Korean bank. Daewoo needs a large cash injection, obviously new GM can't provide that due t the terms of the bailout, and Holden is in no position to, as it doesn't make a profit and has low cash reserves. The korean bank will do so on condition that Daewoo becomes a full product range product developer. So, GM pacific's engineering will migrate to Daewoo, leaving Holden as an importer of Asian cars with Holden badges stuck on them, and a Chinese part sourcing operation for GM USA, and an engine exporter, with Commodore production entirely dependent on the whims of State and Federal government. Greglocock (talk) 01:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting new bit, that's a crock of crap, just like that crap you posted about the Cruze not being made here and the G8/Chevy Caprice being made in Canada. You obviously don't know what your talking about. How about you give us your (detailed) prophesy on Ford Oz. You seem to be very quiet about that? OSX (talk • contributions) 05:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

What did I post about the Cruze, not saying I didn't but I can't remember doing so -I'm not actually interested in that market segment so I'm a bit surprised I commented? The G8/canada bit was referenced. The daewoo bit is not referenced, but here ya go, for a start.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2009/05/123_45885.html

Greglocock (talk) 06:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

That is what the Korean bank wants, it does not mean they are going to get it. Also, they want the HFV6 plant? Why? They use this engine in one model (Captiva) and they only make smaller cars anyway (what do they want a V6 Cruze or Kalos?). I read a similar article somewhere else from around the same time as this Korea Times article; I have not heard anything since.

As for your addition to this article regarding the unlikely chance of the Cruze entering production in Adelaide, please see: [2]. Now, where is Ford Australia's future product plan? OSX (talk • contributions) 07:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Since you were too lazy to look up the reference, here is a cut and paste from it

"Although Holden has lost money for three years running, GM's February 17 plan said: "Holden and the Australian Government have developed a plan to bring to market a more fuel-efficient vehicle", with government funding provided via "permanent grants", adding "with this support, Holden is projected to be viable".

Kevin Rudd and Carr announced that support -- $149 million for small-car production at Holden's SA plant from 2010 -- immediately after GM received the US Government's pre-Christmas loan approval. While they claimed it would support 600 jobs, it was just offsetting jobs that Holden's previously announced cessation of engine production this year would shed.

But while Holden hasn't said so, the small-car production and jobs won't happen. On March 5, GM issued a 480-page 10-K (annual profit) report containing a note explaining a $97.1 million "restructuring charge" for "600 employees who will leave" this year from a "facility manufacturing engines".

GM's February 17 plan specified 26,000 non-US job cuts in 2009, but then held Asia-Pacific jobs constant throughout 2010-2014. Therefore, Holden cannot add workers for small-car production in 2010 (or before 2015) without breaking GM's February 17 commitment to the US Government (unless GM cuts a further 600 jobs in Australian or elsewhere in Asia-Pacific).

In any case, it is difficult to see how Holden could fund the required $447 million co-investment. It is losing money and, until US government loans are repaid, GM cannot direct cash to foreign subsidiaries and Holden cannot use any assets as loan collateral."

I think a rational observer would agree that my edit was a reasonable summary of that section. Note the last para, it is the crux of the matter.

As to the Korean bank, well, you haven't identified where Daewoo is going to get the money if not from them - as I have pointed out repeatedly , new GM can't give it to them, and Holden doesn't have it. The bank has the money and will extract its pound of flesh.Greglocock (talk) 07:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

So Holden are outfitting their Elizabeth plant for the Cruze, but it "won't happen"? See this GoAuto article. Also this Drive article:

Holden escaped a "near-death" experience when its parent company, General Motors, went into bankruptcy earlier this year, South Australian Deputy Premier Kevin Foley has told a press conference assembled to announce new fuel-efficient V6 engines for the company’s Commodore range.

Mr Foley, whose constituency includes Holden’s Adelaide manufacturing plant where Commodores are assembled, said a massive injection of funds from the Federal Government’s Green Car Innovation Fund to build the Holden Cruze small car had probably saved the company from going under.

"We are not out of the woods, but we’re a decent way down that path," he said.

He paid tribute to Federal Industry Minister Kim Carr and Holden managing director Mark Reuss as the architects of the company’s continued operation under the restructured umbrella of "new GM".

"If it had not been for the stroke of luck that an Industry Minsiter like Kim Carr came along with the ability to secure half a billion dollars in funding from his Federal colleagues, and the arrival of someone as talented and as driven as [Holden chairman and managing director] Mark Reuss, we wouldn’t be here today," he said.

"It has been a near-death experience for Holden, but it has bounced back in the most aggressive and the most successful manner possible.

— Steve Colquhoun, drive.com.au, August 5, 2009

OSX (talk • contributions) 05:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I did have a bit of a think about Cruze (as I've said it is not really what I'm interested in). If they downsize ther workforce they have to pay a lot of money, immediately, to ex-employees (say 2000 employees at 50k (could easily be twice that) each that is 100 million). They really don't have that sort of money. Therefore it may be worthwhile to employ them making Cruzes here, even though it is fundamentally expensive as I've explained. The Feds and SA will kick in far more money to keep jobs going than to lay people off. Greglocock (talk) 06:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

And by the way, I think Fords new 2.0 litre turbo Falcon is going to be a winner. Especially in markets like Southeast Asia and China where displacments above 2.0 litres are heavily taxed. Shame about the Focus though.

When you said, "If they downsize ther workforce they have to pay a lot of money", are you talking about the HEC Family II engine plant in Port Melbourne? OSX (talk • contributions) 07:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

No I meant in SA, their assembly workers are currently working half time. That can't continue, G8 is dead, the long term decline in the large car segment means that Commodore and Falcon and Avalon are locked into a declining market, so Commodore volumes are unlikely to return to 110000 pa. Greglocock (talk) 09:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Four years later and what have we found out? The 2 litre falcon got great reviews and nobody bought it. Holden will survive by selling Holden badges on imported product. Supercar sadly turned into a silhouette series and admittedly Holden have persevered there. They may continue as a design studio, but getting rid of your CAD guys and engineers isn't a growth move. So was it really crap, OSX? Greglocock (talk) 10:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Holden Automobile Timeline.

Can someone who knows how to edit stuff on wikipedia properly please deal with the HOlden timeline. It's ridiculous that the whole thing is from 1948-present. So much so that you can't see it all in one hit. and the fact you can't scroll across in that makes it even more difficult. The only way to get to the end of it is to highlight and drag across. That's just stupid. Someone needs to separate it into 2 reasonable timelines so that you can see everything properly. Dragonboy (talk) 04:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this is an Internet Explorer 6-only incident. The fact that this browser is 8 years old shows in its rendering of the timeline. There are other aspects of this site that don't work in IE either, but we cannot hold back progress for the sake of user unwillingness to upgrade to newer (free) versions. I suggest you go to the website for whatever browser you use and download the the most recent version. Kind regards. OSX (talk • contributions) 06:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I use the very latest version of Firefox all the time, and it still looks like that. So dont tell me im unwilling to upgrade. An what's wrong with it being separated into two timelines anyway. A lot of the car manufacturers timelines on this site are split into two too make it easy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragonboy (talk • contribs) 04:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I apologise for making that presumption, as it works fine in Safari 3 and 4, Firefox 3 and Opera 9. Maybe you could upload a screenshot (here, or to flickr, etc) so I can see what the problem is and try getting it fixed by someone. As for the two timelines, doesn't that seem a bit archaic? I know others use it, but I ventured away from it to reduce clutter. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh my god i am so sorry starting up a little, i only just now noticed the scroll bar at the bottom of the timeline. Again really sorry for the fuss, i just never noticed it at all until now. Dragonboy (talk) 05:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

No worries. We all have those blind moments. Maybe a second scrollbar would be useful at the top? Any thoughts? OSX (talk • contributions) 05:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Might be useful to prevent any other little blind moments with others. Dragonboy (talk) 05:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC )

What model Holden is this

?

Hi, I took this image the other but I do not know what kind of Holden this is. Does anyone know. Adam (talk) 02:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Its a Holden FC Special. GTHO (talk) 02:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that, that was quick. Adam (talk) 02:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I have categorised all your Holden images on the Commons, so if you are (were) unsure bout any others, just check the category at the bottom of each image description page. OSX (talk • contributions) 06:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Once again thanks. I was kind of hoping that someone would come along and add categories as I had trouble finding them myself. Cheers. Also can't wait for the next car show at Sylverwater. Not quite sure when they are on though. I'll try to take some better pics . Adam (talk) 08:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

GM Holden

Comment originally posted at User talk:OSX: "The Holden article is being repeatedly edited to include "US-owned" in the description. The Opel article states that Opel is a German automaker and the Vauxhall article states that Vauxhall is a British automaker. Why is Holden being singled out here? The Holden article states elsewhere that the parent company in GM. Any reader can go to the GM article to find which country owns it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SPStech (talk • contribs) 18:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC) "

SPStech, the fact is that Holden is U.S.-owned, so there is nothing factually inaccurate about the statement. The Opel and Vauxhall Motors articles do a lot of things differently, they are not "template articles" that all other GM subsidiary articles must adhere to.

I am happy to leave the first sentence like this per your insistence, however, I have made the following change to the second sentence: "The company was founded in 1856 as a saddlery business, but later moved into the automotive field, becoming a subsidiary of the U.S.-based General Motors (GM) in 1931."

Also, in regards to your above linked edit, please refrain from personal attacks in edit summaries against other users. OSX (talk • contributions) 12:55, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I would be happy if the first and second sentence stayed like that. My personal attack was justified, Greglocock is a dickhead, and a one-eyed Holden bashing Ford fan. SPStech (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Laughs, Oh the big brave anonymous little boy, typing insults on his mum's computer. Won't she let you go to Mt Panorama? All I am pointing out is that the Toyota Australia and Ford Australia articles do not make the false claim that they are Australian car manufacturers in the first sentence of their articles, so why does the Holden one? Or, if you think Holden is Australian, like Kraft Cheese and Nestle chocolate, then the other two articles should be modified as well. Personally I have trouble reconciling Australian with 100% foreign owned, but so long as we are consistent I really don't mind either way. Greglocock (talk) 00:51, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The only place that Holden builds cars is in Elizabeth, South Australia. That is where Holden differs to Toyota and Ford etc, and that is the reason why Holden is an Australian car manufacturer. The article never stated that Holden was Australian owned, and the article is very clear that Holden is a GM subsidary. Everyone knows that GM is US owned and links on the article will take a reader to the GM article if they wish to learn more about the parent company. It is obvious that you are a Holden hating Ford fan, so stop being an antogonistic prick and leave the Holden article alone. Stick to what you know something about, go and vandalise the Ford article. SPStech (talk) 02:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The only place Ford Australia builds cars is Broadmeadows. The only place Toyota Australia builds cars is Altona. Your logical abilities are as restricted as your vocabulary. So, in your opinion both those 100% foreign owned subsidiaries are Australian? As I said, that is fine as an outcome, if OSX accepts it. Now I suggest you let your mum have her computer back. And do your homework, you obviously need to.Greglocock (talk) 02:59, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Ford Australia is Australian, so is Toyota Australia. However, Ford and Toyota are foreign owned. Did you notice that I did NOT say that Ford Australia and Toyota Australia are Australian owned? The Ford Falcon is an Australian car, they don't build them anywhere other than Broadmeadows. Kraft is US owned, but Vegemite is Australian. Why can't you understand this. You are probably a Victorian, that is why you are a moron. SPStech (talk) 03:12, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll take it real slow, see if you get it this time round. All three companies are 100% owned by an overseas manufacturer. All 3 have different formal names to their parent companies. All 3 assemble cars at one location in Australia. So, little boy, why would we treat Holden any different to the other two? Greglocock (talk) 03:34, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

You are not telling me anything that I don't already know. I understand that Holden, Ford Australia and Toyota Australia are subsidiaries of foreign owned companies. We should not treat Ford Australia and Toyota Australia different to Holden. Personally, I am not interested in what the Ford Australia or the Toyota Australia articles say. If you are, then go and fix those articles and leave the Holden article alone. SPStech (talk) 03:45, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Birkenhead, South Australia production facility

Does anyone have any information on the old Birkenhead, South Australia production facility? I have found this article from GoAuto, which states the plant was discontinued before January 1965. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Page 20 of Norm Darwin’s “100 years of GM in Australia” has a couple of paragraphs on the establishment of GMA’s SA assembly facility at Birkenhead in 1926. This of course was not a “Holden” plant at the time but would have become so with the takeover of Holden Motor Body Builders by GM and the establishment of GMH in 1931.

Page 142 of Norm Darwin’s “The History of Holden Since 1917” has reference to GMH assembly plants for the 48-215 in 1948 as being “Pagewood, NSW, The Valley Brisbane, Mosman Park, Perth and Birkenhead, South Australia.” Woodville and Fishermans Bend are noted as being the actual manufacturing plants.

The infoboard accompanying the 1948 Chevrolet Stylemaster displayed at the National Motor Museum at Birdwood states that the car was assembled at Birkenhead.

www.postcards-sa.com.au has reference to a Holden FJ being assembled at Birkenhead in 1954. GTHO (talk) 10:20, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I have added a sentence about the Birkenhead facility to the article.

By the way, do you know what the original production plant was? OSX (talk • contributions) 01:27, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll let you know re what I can find on the first Holden plant. Regarding the Birkenhead info which was added to the Holden page, this suggested that the plant was completed as a HMBB facility. This is not correct as it was a General Motors Australia assembly plant which was opened along with four other similar plants in GMA's start up year, 1926. It could not be considered to be a "Holden" plant until the merging of HMBB and GMA to form GMH in 1931. GTHO (talk) 00:48, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

So how do you suppose we include the Birkenhead information? If you know the details, please edit the article and make this clear. OSX (talk • contributions) 10:57, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll have a look at it. GTHO (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Done. GTHO (talk) 03:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

reference no 8

It seems this reference is misleading. Yes HMBB did build a couple of Ford T bodies c1923 but the reference indicates hmbb was a source of Ford bodies. Until Ford Aust est bodies for T Fords were produced in the main by each Ford Distributor, in Victoria it was Tarrants in NSW it was Davis & Fehon. Refer The History of Ford in Australia chapter 2. by Norm Darwin

On the matter of Fishermen's Bend. I have a Holden publication dated 1936 titled "The Changing Trend" by GMH that shows there address as Fishermen's Bend. GMH continued to use this Fishermen's Bend through the 60s and when publishing 100 Years of GM in Australia I had a discussion with Holden's PR dept about the spelling and apostrophe. As there was more than one Fisherman on the bend of the Yarra perhaps the apostrophe should have been after the S. Just to confuse things an early copy of Morgan's Street Directory spells it Fisherman's Bend, but then they show it where Garden City should be. Victorian place names use Fishermens Bend as a Historical ref and Fishermans Bend as the Official name. No apostrophe. Holden's address is now Port Melbouurne. (Sloper35 (talk) 11:33, 19 August 2010 (UTC)) Reading further I have some more comments about references. Ref no 18. The Holden design was based on a pre-war GM Product Study Group project to see if a 4 cylinder light cars performance was better or worse than a 6 cylinder. Two cars were built using some modified 1938 Chevrolet body parts, hence the confusion. The cars were known as the 195-Y-13 (4 cylinder) and 195-Y-15 (6 cylinder). The 6 cylinder spec was very close to that proposed for the Holden car and so it was largely used. see 100 Years of GM in Australia p187, History of Holden Since 1917 p155. Heart of the Lion p48. Ref no 20 The FX designation. Loffler contends that this came from GMH. I dissagree, the FX does not fit into the codes used by GMH engineering at the time. The letter codes stood for the year numeral. (see 100 Years of GM in Australia p 224)It is my understanding that the Used Car Dealers (possibly Kevin Dennis) coined the letters after the FJ release, after all 2 didgets cost less to typeset than 6 didgets (48-215). Loffler offers no source for his GMH contention. I hold a 48-215/FJ product program and FX is not mentioned. (Sloper35 (talk) 12:01, 19 August 2010 (UTC)) Loffler now offers reference to FX designation see enlarged ed of . It is possible that both explanations are true. NormDar (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2018 (UTC) Tried to replace Note 31 with later Loffler (2006) book. Gave up and added a new note. Old one needs to go. NormDar (talk) 01:44, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Holden's Motor Body Builders Ltd

The article cites that the company Holden's Motor Body Builders Ltd. was founded in 1919, doing a bit of research recently (which tangentially led to me reading this article) I found reference to this company in November 1918 at http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5601940.Ratsmitglied (talk) 05:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I've been reading & re-reading this article for several years now but have never noticed that error. Norm Darwin's book on the subject is titled 'History of Holden since 1917' & an excerpt from my '60 year' book reads

"Holden was one of many organisations that saw an avenue for future expansion. In 1917, the company commenced motor body-building making a full scale move into the fast growing world of the automobile. After building nearly 100 bodies on Buick and Dodge chassis in its first year, the company increased production to 587 in 1918 and nearly 1600 just one year later. "

Probably time for an edit. (Terrybebb (talk) 21:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC))

Australian bodies

Holden with Vauxhall grille and mechanicals (?)

Buick straight-eight engine, grille and + ?

Are Australians aware that (for example) their 1930s Chevs Pontiacs Buicks and Oldsmobiles may look like the nominally same article in other countries but not when they are put alongside one another?

It is noticeable that Australian Vauxhall bodies are slightly different from their UK cousins. In fact I'm certain that postwar some Vauxhall tourers / convertibles were sent from Australia to UK and Utilities too and this was because Holden still built their Vauxhalls on a traditional chassis. Does anyone know the extent of native to Australia bodies (and chassis) made for (all) GM mechanicals in the 1920s and 1930s or know a source of information about this subject? I will leave this same note on the Vauxhall 14-6 talk page. Eddaido (talk) 04:05, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

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Subsidiary or marque?

I saw a recent change to General Motors where Holden was removed from the list of Divisions in the infobox, and it appears in the list of Subsidiaries instead. This conflicts with other things like the Holden timeline template and General Motors template, where Holden is listed as a brand, or marque, of General Motors, like Chevrolet/Buick/Cadillac/GMC, rather than a subsidiary, like Wuling/Baojun/Ravon. Is there consensus on which one Holden is? --Vossanova ^o< 15:03, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Why do you think it must be one or the other? I expect it has always been both. Johnbod (talk) 17:39, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Okay, let me rephrase that. Is it only a brand, or is it also a subsidiary as well? --Vossanova ^o< 21:01, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

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FA compliance

This article is not in compliance with FA standards due to the large number of refs to primary sources [28 to Davis, which is a Holden publication] and other non-RS such as 'Unique Cars and Parts' 'MotoringORient' and also the Holden website itself Bumbubookworm (talk) 13:02, 17 July 2021 (UTC)