Talk:Ashina tribe

Japanese clans

Should they be linked from the Japanese clans page?

No it's a Turkic dynasty as mentioned in the Article--Ugur Basak 11:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Ashina is a Turkish clan. But the interesting point is, this prooves a connection of Hsiungnu to Turks. Tengriteg

Given there is little to no evidence of the Ashina clan at all, no historical record of how the clan passed down through history and precisely nil that there was anyone associated with the Xiongnu who was in any way whatsoever in vaguely associated with the Turks or the Ashina, I do not see how. In fact given that this entire article looks a-historic Turkish myth-making, why does it even exist? Lao Wai 14:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

According to the New Book of Tang, the Ashina were related to the northern tribes of the Xiongnu. I also read a translation. If I can find some time I will give Chinese references. 193.140.91.129 06:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It says country Suo, NORTH of the Xiongnu, not the Northern Xiongnu. There is no connection, just Turkish Nationalism.

--173.70.154.203 (talk) 20:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The Ashina Turks are extremely well documented by historians. Chinese and Greek especially. I agree that the Ashina were not part of Xiongnu. That theory assumes the Wusun were related to the Ashina. I don't personally need anymore proof that Xiongnu spoke a proto-Turkish language and that Turks embarked on nomadic empire-building adventures and that the Ashina were a bit like real life superheroes. If you live in a neo-fascist country that uses history to brainwash you, I'm sorry. I'd hate to show you some real Turkic nationalism.

ANYWAY in case anyone wonders the Ashinas clan of Japan might be shoemakers? Their name means "keeping an eye on legs and feet." Or "observer of reeds." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 02:12, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Removed phrase

"These stories were at times pieced together to form a chronologically narrates of history. However the composite of such narrates are broad and the sequel could have been ended one way or the other, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it. "

These sentences make no sense to me. I would be happy to help put them in comprehensible English if someone could tell me what they are trying to say. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

These stories as stated, had been pieced together to form a narrates of their history in a chronologically manner, so what's wrong with that. Please try harder for the comprehensible. Or otherwise I will put them in myself. Eiorgiomugini 18:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"These stories were sometimes pieced together to form a chronologically narrative of early Ashina history. However the ultimate origin and chronological order of such narratives are uncertain, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it."

This parts is totally corrected, now I had no idea why did you removed the last part of it. If anythings, removing a sourced infomations from secondary matarial needed to be addressed here. Not simply undid my edits to prevert any revert wars. If it is not comprehensible English, probably you should added a tag over for a clean-up than removing my source. Eiorgiomugini 06:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Your parts "These stories were sometimes pieced together to form a chronologically narrative of early Ashina history. However the ultimate origin and chronological order of such narratives are unknown." simply do not stated what my source trying to said, first of all, they're not unknown to scholars. Eiorgiomugini 06:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Xue

What is "Xue" in the "references" section? Could you be more specific? --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Its a citation or foot note. Read WP:REF for specific. Eiorgiomugini 18:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You should explain who is Xue - is it a book or a writer? If it is a book, when was it published? By whom? where? You can't persuade me that three enigmatic letters is a sufficient reference per se. --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Its all written under the references section, please read also WP:HARV. To tell you the truth, I might simply choose to ignore or reply such comments. Eiorgiomugini 18:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This is what I called trolling, obviously there's a reference section for book, location and publisher[3], but Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs) simpy do not bother to look over it and is rather frustrating to be repeatedly questioned by the distorted user here over again and again. I think the improvement of for this article is a pointless waste of time because of people like you Ghirlandajo. Eiorgiomugini 06:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ashina

I'm not a native speaker of English, and my language skills are limited. Perhaps it's the reason why I can't comprehend the phrase "These stories were at times pieced together to form a chronologically narrates of history, however the probability was large and such sequel could have been one way or the other, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it". I tried to comment it out, but another editor started to revert war and added another sentence that I can't parse. I seek your opinion, mediation, and/or advice how to proceed in this case. --Ghirla^-трёп- 17:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. This latest edit makes me conclude that the only way to proceed is to file WP:RFC concerning Eiorgiomugini's behaviour. The guy is terribly possessive in that he restores his every edit, no matter how you try to process it. This attitude effectively blocks the articles on the Gokturks and Xiongnu from any reasonable editing or improvement. I will probably pen a RfC tonight. Let other wikipedians judge what measures should be taken in this case. --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That's probably wise. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Which articles are we talking about? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem currently revolves around Ashina and Tarim mummies. But it is much wider than that. I think the guy reverted almost every edit I made to Gokturk-related articles today. Since I plan to write more stuff about that part of the world, I don't see how it may be practicable if this pattern of behaviour continues. His current revert-warring does nothing to encourage me (or anyone else) to keep editing those articles. P.S. Check Eiorgiomugini's block log. --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your efforts. You may also want to check the ongoing discussion on Dbachmann's talk page. It concerns the best way to spell the word "khagan". --Ghirla^-трёп- 06:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Briangotts"

Now User:Ghirlandajo, my behaviour is totally reasonable, if you felt frustrating, you could file a report whatever you wanted it, but overall at least I provided my source, unlike you that simply made an edit without a sources at the first point, so instead saying bads about me why don't you backoff on the insulting me and do something else, considering your block logare no better than anyone else here either. Eiorgiomugini 06:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do not removed the dispute resolution of we're discussing, if anythings discussion should have been moved here for more appropriated approach for both of us especially, that is what matters for you. Also about Gokturk-related articles, I don't even think those could be accepted as "revert", but anyone like you are welcome and might like to give it a try for that issue as well. Let's all filed this petty issue to a report for a abuse reverter like you, I don't care, I don't even think that I was at wrong in the first places. Eiorgiomugini 07:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone think the Asina/Ashina could be related to the Asii/Asiani who are called "the lords of the Tochari," thus explaining their Indo-European name and possibly giving them Tocharian ancestry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.84.36 (talk) 20:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Nice discussion - missing here is scientific litarature - eg Peter Goldern and his latest article on the origins of the Turkut. As per Ashina and Gok/Kk names and name origin, Peter Golden and Rona-Tas, Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages, 1999 ascribe both words to Khotaknese Saka or Tocharian(Tarim basin) languages. Both words mean 'blue' - I will provide page number and cite later on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.43.88 (talk) 20:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Briangotts's complain

You would be well advised not to address your fellow editors with this type of profanity. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Please review WP:Style and other guidelines. Refs and notes are properly two different sections. Please also review WP:OWN and accept that you do not have any property interest over Ashina, Gokturks, or any other articles. Your behavior is going to result in you being blocked (yet again). Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Eiorgiomugini"

I don't think you had the right to claim I had WP:OWN over Gokturk and Ashina, anyone could check out Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs)'s edits, and would knows that most of his revert/edition and trolling did not addressed under the edit summary, which meant he simply removed informations whatever he wants it, a terribly possessive in my opinion. I agreed with the style, however since Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs) are the one who removed the References section[4], so I thought it might be better for you to rant on him, this had totally no concerns about my edits, I just happens to make a combined sections for compromise after his removal. About profanity, I don't recall I did mentioned your name on the edit summary nor the fellow editors here either, so that's just another self-soliloquizing from me.

And please refrain on yelling at others such as this one [5], reading the guideline of WP:OWN might help. You claimed you are willing to help in the comprehensible English for the article if I described on the talk, yet you made no reply ever since your first edit here [6], so I asked another guy to involve with the article somthings that you had failed to do. Eiorgiomugini 02:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Most powerful royal house and WP:OR

I think we needs a specific quote about what Togan said on the Ashina, such WP:POV claim needed to be addressed properly (including the reasoning) as well. Eiorgiomugini 02:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Guess what, I had removed one of the sources from the article. This quote below was clearly utter rubbish:

They were the most powerful royal house of the steppes before the rise of the Borjigin.[1]

Tagan was talking about the three main dynasties (Ashina, Chinggisid and Ottoman) in the history of Turks under page 16, nothing implies that he stated about the Ashina being the most powerful clan prior to Borjigin, there don't even have a word of Borjigin mentioned by him to begin with. WP:OR may be the grounds for deletion, and before doing so please think twice about what you are doing, at least thinks for the others instead for your sake of selfness. Eiorgiomugini 07:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Please stop distorting the facts. I don't know whether it's your command of the language or bad will that makes you pretend to see so much difference between "powerful" and "main". You may replace one epithet with another, if you think they are not synonyms. In fact, I fail to understand how a dynasty may be described as "main" if it does not wield actual power. Your gratuitous accusations of "cheating" are not to be tolerated. We are not supposed to quote sources verbatim, as that would constitute breach of copyright. Your point that the Genghisids are not a branch of the Borjigin is very peculiar and needs to be sourced. Since it was me who wrote our articles about Genghisids and some Scythian royals too, I know what I'm talking about. --Ghirla^-трёп- 06:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

However, in any case, a problem with the assertion is that it ignores the Yoglokars. --Nlu (talk) 07:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

While the fact that you're the one who are making the WP:OR, so you're not in the position to talk back on me. If you had claimed me to be distorting the facts, you should had provided a proof to back up. This had got nothing to do with synonyms, the source doesn't even mentioned something between "powerful" and "main". Replacing one epithet to another? Like what, it makes me wonder did you even read the source you provided earlier. Your accusations is not making any sense for your information, and yes I considered you're cheating with your source with all these nonesense that actually started up by you. "I know what I'm talking about" talk to others, but not me, I don't care what articles you had wrote about, as you're unable to attribute your additions to a sources is considered to be a WP:OR. Eiorgiomugini 07:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Another thing that actually wonder me is why do you even bother to add this "most powerful" statement on the first places. Since everyone likes to be part of something, I hope you do aware that all claims like this needed to be sourced as it simply brought doubtness to readers. Eiorgiomugini 07:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I had updated the additions from the article as it had violated against the WP:OR:

Sergei Klyashtorny, a Soviet Turkologist who was responsible for the coverage of the Gokturks in the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia, derives the name of the Ashina from the Iranian term for "deep blue" (this epithet was applied by the Persians to the Black Sea). This is consistent with the prevalent interpretation of the ethnonym "Göktürks" as "blue Turks", "heavenly Turks".

If Findley did said that, he would have mentioned under his sources, this article is currently in the dispute status, anymore nonsense without a source to back up would be removed. Eiorgiomugini 02:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for comments

Further information: Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ashina 2

Now, I had asked this guy named Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs) earlier up for a mediation, but he refused even though our disputes carried on. Is there other way could be done about this? I need several opinions from you guys. Eiorgiomugini 14:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Ask for a third opinion? Or try a requests for comment on the article(s) in question? Moreschi ^Talk 14:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Its been requested by this user on me, and its full of false accusations and so on. Is there any other suggestions? I really needs to get this mediation to work on with this user, it would be a great thanks if you you guys could asked him agreed to the mediation. Eiorgiomugini 14:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I told you that I'm not interested in Ashina any more. I'm concerned about your systematic removal of references from Suyab now. You are an experienced editor and probably know the difference between this board and Village Pump. --Ghirla^-трёп- 14:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Any helps would be great if any of you guys could moved this guy to come over for a mediation, or otherwise I believe our dispute would still carried on. To Ghirlandajo, leaving aside Suyab, I believe there's more disputes over others articles in future, if you continued with your huge cut-and-paste reverting. Eiorgiomugini 14:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I meant request comment on the article(s), not the people involved. An article RfC as oppposed to a user conduct one. Moreschi ^Talk 14:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Its been requested before earlier, and I don't think it work pretty well, the disputes continued after that in several articles. Eiorgiomugini 14:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

moved here from WP:AN/I, listed on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. dab (𒁳) 14:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

A mistake about color identification

From the article: The Ashina probably comes from one of the Iranian languages of central Asia and means "blue", kok in Turkic, the color identified with the east, so that Gokturk, another name for the Turk empire, meant the "Turks of the East".

In old turkish the color identified with the East is Yellow. The name of the Yellow Sea comes from Turkish. Blue is the color that identifies holyness and royalty as it is the color of the SkyGod. So, Gokturk does not mean "Turks of the East", it means "Royal Turks". I have to check my books for reference.

That's true - the sun rises in the east. "Descendants of the sky" or "Celestial born" are good translations as well as "Turquoise Turks".

Ashinas also means "Recognized" in Iranian. In Japanese it means "leg and foot observer". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:AACF:B515:6FE0:58A6:AE6 (talk) 01:01, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

DNA Project

I hope I am not alone in seeing that the "Ashina Ancestry DNA" project is highly speculative. Aside from ignoring that the Ashina originally come from Xingjiang, it ignores genetic studies done on Xiongnu mummies and the Tarim Basin mummies, as well as ignores that the Ashina, much like the Saka, were not originally Xiongnu and adopted their culture post conquest/absorbtion. As a historian I find this project to be disconcerting in much the same way that the Davidic Dynasty project has no basis in historical fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.84.36 (talk) 14:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

As per my previous objections to this project I have removed the subject entirely. Not only was it poorly written, but to assume that the Ashina were haplogroup Q despite no evidence to support that in either Xiongnu or Tocharian/Tarim Basin grave sites is clearly the work of amateur historians merely intent on supporting a currently unsupportable view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.84.36 (talk) 22:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Turks didn't even mix with the Mongols or any other people like that, there was only a cultural exchange that occured. Xiongnu, on the other hand share the same genes as Xianbei and other people. Therefore,Turks couldn't be the descendents of Xiongnu since they do not share the same genes.

Also, Xiongnu split into two groups, North and South. Southern Xiongnu integrated with Chinese in Shaanxi province, and Northern migrated westward into Europe. No Turks split off from these two groups. The Gokturks who invaded China hundreds of years later were not the same, and only Turkish nationalists try to claim so (even saying Native Americans are Turks).

http://www.find-health-articles.com/rec_pub_16596591-population-origins-mongolia-genetic-structure-analysis-ancient-modern.htm http://www.find-health-articles.com/rec_pub_17905712-genetic-analyses-affinities-tuoba-xianbei-xiongnu-populations.htm --Xiaogoudelaohu (talk) 20:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Ashina was an east Iranian clan

http://www.google.com/books?hl=tr&lr=&id=8-OilJCX1moC&oi=fnd&pg=PA136&dq=cultural+contacts+central+asia+ashina+turks&ots=PB1tYoVetw&sig=L8Kierke9nLDjx0j2MYlRN97tK8#v=onepage&q&f=false

See the book below pages 142-143

Humanbyrace (talk) 22:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Ashina was turkic clan, they were mongoloids, look at head of Kul Tegin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kul_Tigin, he was from Ashina family Leave this pan-iranist nationalizm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.96.65.154 (talk) 12:02, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Readability

I did my bit at trying to make this article readable because the topic is highly interesting and the author put so much effort in his job, so it was a pity the average reader would not be able to understand much.

I hope I did not misrepresent anything: if so please feel free to rectify and I will help with the language.Aldrasto11 (talk) 07:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

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Pseudeo-scientific source(s)

In the beginning passage this source [7] is used. It's obviously a dubious one, with having Wikipedia articles as references, amongst others. I don't think such references inserted by blocked sockpuppet accounts should stay in the article, so I'll delete them. Regards Akocsg (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

@Akocsg: Ask about the reliability of that source on WP:RSN. If other editors confirm it as unreliable, then we remove it. But the other parts of your edits are POV + misleading/false edit summaries. You remove everything you don't like or replace them with your own comments. Plus opening a section on the talk page does not meant that you can do such edits or your edits are legit. Some examples of your POV:

• Writing system: Changing "The Ashina writing system was taken from the Iranian Sogdian language. The letters used in the construction of the memorial stele describing the heroic exploits of the members of the ruling Kagan kind, were Sogdian. Thus the main inscription on the stele Bugutskoy set up in honour of one of the rulers of the First Turkic khanate, is a written Sogdian letter. A Sogdian inscription is found on a broadsword discovered in the burial of an ancient Turkic warrior at the monument at Jolene in the Altai Mountains." to According to some sources the Ashina writing system was taken from the Sogdian language. The letters used in the construction of the memorial stele describing the heroic exploits of the members of the ruling class and the Khagan were Old Turkic. A Sogdian inscription was found on a broadsword discovered in the burial of an ancient Turkic warrior at the monument at Jolene in the Altai Mountains
• Writing system 2: Changing "During the period of the Second Eastern Turk, ancient Turkic runic writing spread, which was also influenced by Sogdian. Runes are widespread among the nomadic Turkic peoples in the early Middle Ages." to "During the period of the second Eastern Turkic Khaganate, ancient Turkic runic writing spread. Runes were widespread among the nomadic Turkic peoples in the early Middle Ages."
• Funreal rite section: I just mention the first sentence and users can compare it with your changes: "Almost all of the elements of the funeral rites of the Ashina have analogues in the Indo-European rites"
• Another Orientalist, Yu. A. Zuev, also points out the origin of the Saka-Wusun Ashina. => Your edit: Another Orientalist, Yu. A. Zuev, also points out the origin of the Ashina.
• And you have removed any connection to Iranian/Iranian languages or replaced them with your own words.

So As I said, you use misleading and false edit summaries for POV-pushing. You did this on several other articles before. Next time I will report you to WP:ANI. Plus your blog log shows that this not the first time that you involve in edit warring. --Wario-Man (talk) 13:24, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

@Wario-Man: No they are not, the alphabet used in the stele of the Göktürk Khagans is Old Turkic. Please see these two articles: Orkhon inscriptions and Old Turkic alphabet. The passage called "writing" is about that inscription/writing system. They have nothing to do with Sogdians. So I don't understand why correcting that mistake is POV and false? You should also have noticed that this passage is without any sources (for a reason) and poorly written, very likely by one of the sockpuppets of User:GoguryeoHistorian, who was blocked indefinitely. It's the other way around actually, some user simply made Sogdian ("Iranian") out of Old Turkic. So why do you keep reinstating that? And I would really like to see a source/proof for that alleged "Sogdian inscription" on a sword of an "ancient Turkic warrior". Same goes for the funeral rite. I highly doubt that they would anything have to do with Slavic ones. Seems pretty much made up by me. I'm not pushing POV, but correcting POV which was done way earlier in this article. Regards Akocsg (talk) 20:07, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, just your personal opinion and uncensored changes which are equal to POV. And your claim about the sockpuppetry does not make any sense, because I watch this article and except the genetics section which was added by an IP for the first time on 2016[8] and it may requires verification, The other parts of this article is sourced and contributed by several editors (old edits). You can't change the referenced parts by your own interpretation. Provide your sources and when you have sources just add them to the article and do not delete/change the contents which you don't like them. Your talk page comments on here, edit summaries and your edits especially this one [9] show clear POV-pushing and disruptive edits. Since you don't want to provide your sources, then this is the end of this discussion for me. I have clarified every thing. --Wario-Man (talk) 05:40, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

You haven't clarified anything, only keep accusing of POV pushing while I'm doing the opposite. And the fact that the Orkhon inscriptions of the Göktürks are Old Turkic, and not Sogdian is not POV or my personal opinion but a fact. Just read the article. The passage about the writing system doesn't contain any source. According to the source in that article, it was even the other way around. Here they are:

References

Does anyone have quotes from reliable sources supporting these sentences:

• "The Ashina writing system was the Old Turkic runic alphabet."
• "The Ashina writing system was taken from the Iranian Sogdian language."

I do not see quotes supporting anything. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:00, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

So far, this source:

• "The Earliest Turkic Poem"", no mention of Gokturk or Ashina.

According to A Grammar Of Old Turkic, by Marcel Erdal, page 4;

• "When, in the 6th century A.D., the first Turk kaghanate was formed in present-day Mongolia, its rulers appear to have used Sogidan, an Iranian language, for writing.

also, on page 4;

• "The earliest readable, understandable and datable Turkic texts are the official inscriptions of the second Turk kaghanate, the Orkhon inscriptions; the first of which appear to have been from slightly before 720 A.D..."

Therefore, we can not attribute the Orkhon inscriptions(c.720) to the first Turk kaghanate(ended c.630), which is what the statement about the Ashina is referring to. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:39, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Also, according to Monumental Polovtsian Statues in Eastern Europe, by Aneta Golebiowska-Tobiasz, page 38;

• "The blooming period of Asian stone sculpture has been link to the influences of Sogdian art at the time of the Western Turkic Khaganate." --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:55, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Another one from Encyclopaedia Iranica;

• "TURKO-SOGDIAN COINAGE, issues of the khaqans (ḵāqāns) of the Western Turkic khanate in Central Asia between the 6th and 8th centuries CE, so called because the Turkic rulers issued them with Sogdian inscriptions (Smirnova, 1952)." --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:04, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

And, according to The Altaic World through Byzantine eyes: Some remarks on the Historical Circumstances of Zemarchus' Journey to the Turks (AD 569-570), Mihály Dobrovits, "Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae", Vol. 64, No. 4 (December 2011), page 382;

• "Sogdian played an important role in the life of the Turkic Empire. It was the language of the Bugut inscription (ca. 571-582), the first historical inscription of the Turks..." --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

@Akocsg and Kansas Bear: I removed that section (Sogdian writing system).[10] Seems it's a WP:OR. An nothing about Ashina and their writing system on Old Turkic alphabet, Orkhon inscriptions. --Wario-Man (talk) 08:45, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ashina clan which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:30, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

This whole page needs serious rewriting by an accredited expert on the Early Turks

I know a ton about the Huns, but not enough about the early Turks to rewrite this page. But this entire thing has been corrupted by pseudo-history and nationalism. I recognize most of the "scholars" cited on here from sites like "TurkicWorld" and "HunnoBulgars.blogspot" like M. Zuev, etc. and their work is not accepted by mainstream, Western scholarship at all. MMFA (talk) 01:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Beshogur's opinions

Beshogur referenced this page of this book for his ascribing "Old Turkic" to the language of the Ashina tribe:

https://books.google.com/books?id=m85xLUjCwQUC&pg=PA64

In fact, page 64 of this book does not contain any reference to the Ashina tribe, and suggests the official language of the very diverse East Turkic Empire/Second Turkic Khaganate was Orkhon. Nowhere does it suggest that this was ethnic language of the Ashina tribe. Hunan201p (talk) 18:56, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

That is not my opinion. Can not believe you are removing sourced content and threatening me with reporting to admins. Is Orkhon inscriptions enough about the mother tongue of Ashina? I am scared that you are going to say that Bilge Qaghan was not of Ashina origin. Also why did you remove the religion section if it is only about the language? By the way feel free to do so. You are violating the rules. Also if you are not convinced yet, Orkhon inscriptions are written by Yollıg Khagan itself. and "Yollugh Tigin had also written on the oriental face of the stele" and "The author of the Bilge Kagan and Kül Tigin monuments, Yollug Tigin, describes himself as .." Beshogur (talk) 19:42, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Again, the source does not say anything about the Ashina tribe. This article is about Ashina. The Orkhon inscriptions are written in an Indo-European script, casting serious doubt that Ashina were ethnically Turkic (on top of the fact that a wealth of scholars bekieve they are Indo Iranian Sakas or Wusun). The reference you used in the religious section is very vague and does not explicitly state when and how Tengriism became the religion of the Ashina triben or the Turks for that matter, and the rest of the arricle, as well as your own reference, implies Tengeiism is a syncretic religion that may have been *altered* by Ashina. There is too much unknown here to be rubber stamping the ethnic identity of Ashina, particularly with references like a page from a book thwt doesn't even contin the word "Ashina".Hunan201p (talk) 04:20, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Beshogur's latest attempt to the make the Ashina tribe "Old Turkic" speakers used this reference

https://books.google.com/books?id=Z_B5DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA26

It tells us nothing we didn't already know; the Ashina tribe spoke some form of "Turkic", which was the lingua franca of the Gokturk empire. It says nothing about "Old Turkic" and nothing about the ethnic language of the Ashina. A reference needs to explicitly state that the ethnic language of Ashina tribe was Turkic, to be on this page. References about Old Turkic or Ruanruan are appropriate on the Turkic Khaganate pages, under a "common languages" banner like we have on the Huns page. This source is also very liberal with the vague and seemingly out-of-place ethnonyms, like "Turkish", and does more of a cursiry examinatuon of various Turkic empires than a detailed analysis of the Ashina. Hunan201p (talk) 04:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

the Ashina tribe spoke some form of "Turkic", which was the lingua franca of the Gokturk empire. It says nothing about "Old Turkic"

This must be a joke right? The whole Old Turkic story is based on Orkhon inscriptions. Beshogur (talk) 00:39, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Kansas Bear is working on this article; a new and well-written revision. --Wario-Man (talk) 13:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

First of all, this is a combative talk page section title. Secondly, while I've clashed with Beshogur in the past, in this case, they are right. The source in question says this Among these nomadic groups, the 'founding fathers' of the first khaganate of the Turks occupied a prominent position. This Turkic-speaking-elite, who formed the Ashina clan, initially acknowledged the superiority of the rulers of the Ruran empire of the northern borderlands of China, and settled with their people in the Altai mountain regions assigned to them by the Ruran. It was there that the clan federation of the Turkic-speaking groups, which assumed the name 'Turks' (Türk), first emerged.... Really, this is pretty explicit. Also, Orkhon inscriptions in Indo-European? Never heard this one, sounds quite fringe. Especially as the translation of them from Old Turkic by Danish scholars has been around for quite awhile and is publically available if you have JSTOR [11]. Whatever the "ethnic" language of the Ashina was originally, by the time they were important to history, they spoke Turkic, and we have no idea what was before then. --Calthinus (talk) 20:56, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Calthinus: the very article you link to (Orkhon inscriptions) states explicitly that the Orkhon inscriptions are written in a Sogdian (Indo-Iranian/Indo European) script. The Old Turkic alphabet is a child system of the Sogdian alphabet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdian_alphabet

If you aren't aware of these basic facts; please keep your opinions to yourself.Hunan201p (talk) 17:08, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, script. Because script equals a phylogenetic relationship in historical linguistics? Good luck "proving" that Indonesian descends from Latin, and all languages using Latin or Greek descend from Semitic (namely, Phoenician with its alphabet). Erm, no, that is not how it works. --Calthinus (talk) 20:23, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Fortunately for Wikipedia, Calthinus doesn't get to determine how things 'work' around here. The multiple references on this page, that page and several others make very clear that these people had Iranian heritage.Hunan201p (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

You are faking the sources. None of the sources mention an Iranian origin, I've checked all of them except of two. It only mentions about the etymology of Ashina. Beshogur (talk) 22:14, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I am glad, I can agree with you. Beshogur (talk) 20:59, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

@Wario-Man:, with all respect, you said that Ashina were of Saka-Wusun origin, however I checked the source. Klyashtorni says the word Ashina is Iranian origin, says nothing about the ethnicity. "The theme of the ‘wolf’ in two of the three Türk legends is shared with the Wu-sun, who preceded the Türk Empire by many centuries. Also shared with the Wu-sun is the theme of the mutilated child abandoned in the wilderness by the enemy. According to the Shih-chi, the Wu-sun ruler K’un-mo was cast out to die when still a baby, but was nourished by birds that brought him meat and by a wolf that suckled him. The story is also related in the Han shu and its close relationship with one of the Türk origin myths is obvious. There is, however, the significant difference that, whereas in the Wu-sun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not – as in the case of the Türks – the ancestor of the people. (The connections with Mongol myths, though undeniable, should not concern us here." and "Türk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Türk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wu-sun who – for all we know – may have been Iranians." For all misunderstanding, he says Wusun's are Iranian, not Ashina. Read it good. "Sergei Kliashtornyi has revisisted this theme and, building on the earlier work, suggests that A-shih-na is the transcription of Khotanese-Saka "Asseina/assena "blue" (cf. Soghian *ahsane) or perhaps Tocharian Asna "blue", The Khotanese-Saka form seems closest to "Ashina." This nicely dovetails with the usage "Kök Türk," Blue Türks, found in the Kül Tegin / Bilge Qaghan inscription." Beshogur (talk) 22:21, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

@Calthinus:, I found this in Peter B. Golden's book citing Gumilyev, a well known historian: "Whatever language the Ashina may have spoken originally, they and those they ruled would all speak Turkic, in a variety of dialects, and create, in a broadly defined sense, a common culture. I do not know if he will be still in denial. @Kansas Bear:, comments? Beshogur (talk) 11:58, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

If Golden says that, sure. I would not rely on Lev Gumilyov, personally. --Calthinus (talk) 22:05, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Article rewritten

I have rewritten the article which had many errors including puttin two times origin section, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ashina_tribe&diff=prev&oldid=934644256 here is the rewritten version. Some sources were faked and used wrong. All those writers mention it about its etymological origin. I have removed some writers, because they were citing Klyashtorni as well. "This idea is seconded by the Hungarian researcher András Róna-Tas, who finds it plausible "that we are dealing with a royal family and clan of Saka origin" with "Rona-Tas 208" as source was not verifiable. Did try, but did find nothing. Also added language and religion, with more source. The language and religion should not be a dispute anymore. Took this from Peter B. Golden's book "Whatever language the Ashina may have spoken originally, they and those they ruled would all speak Turkic, in a variety of dialects, and create, in a broadly defined sense, a common culture." About the Wusun thing. It is completely fake that he said Ashina might descend from Wusun. Plus he says that Wusun's were Iranians, not Indo Aryan as it was mentioned here. Here is the full text: "The theme of the ‘wolf’ in two of the three Türk legends is shared with the Wu-sun, who preceded the Türk Empire by many centuries. Also shared with the Wu-sun is the theme of the mutilated child abandoned in the wilderness by the enemy. According to the Shih-chi, the Wu-sun ruler K’un-mo was cast out to die when still a baby, but was nourished by birds that brought him meat and by a wolf that suckled him. The story is also related in the Han shu and its close relationship with one of the Türk origin myths is obvious. There is, however, the significant difference that, whereas in the Wu-sun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not – as in the case of the Türks – the ancestor of the people. (The connections with Mongol myths, though undeniable, should not concern us here." and "Türk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Türk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wu-sun who – for all we know – may have been Iranians." Also there was a Russian source, where you can not verify anything, too much text and it is unsearchable even with translate. @Calthinus:, @Wario-Man:, @Kansas Bear:, thoughts?

Regarding the texts:

• Several historians have pointed out that the origin of the Ashina is from the Indo-Aryan Wusun.[42]

This is not true, this is what Klyashtorni says, from the used source: "The theme of the ‘wolf’ in two of the three Türk legends is shared with the Wu-sun, who preceded the Türk Empire by many centuries. Also shared with the Wu-sun is the theme of the mutilated child abandoned in the wilderness by the enemy. According to the Shih-chi, the Wu-sun ruler K’un-mo was cast out to die when still a baby, but was nourished by birds that brought him meat and by a wolf that suckled him. The story is also related in the Han shu and its close relationship with one of the Türk origin myths is obvious. There is, however, the significant difference that, whereas in the Wu-sun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not – as in the case of the Türks – the ancestor of the people. (The connections with Mongol myths, though undeniable, should not concern us here." and "Türk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Türk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wu-sun who – for all we know – may have been Iranians."

and

• "Researchers such as Peter B. Golden,[13] H. W. Haussig,[14] S. G. Klyashtorny,[15][16] A. N. Bernstamm,[17] Carter V. Findley,[18] D.G. Savinov,[19] S. P. Guschin,[20] Rona-Tas[21] and R. N. Frye[22] have pointed out that the origin of the Ashina is from the Indo-Iranian Saka or Wusun.[23]"

Let us check one by one:

• source [13] here "He suggests that it may derive from the Tocharian title arsilanci, stemming, perhaps, from a marital tie of the Türk with the Tocharians of Qocho (Beckwith 1987, 206-208). Shervashidze reads A-shih-na as *Ahsen(a)-sad (< Soghdian: Axsina "blue" + sad, an Iranian title) (1989, 79-80). This Iranian linguistic connection was first put forward by Haussig and Bailey. More recently, Sergei Kliashtornyi has revisisted this theme and, building on the earlier work, suggests that A-shih-na is the transcription of Khotanese-Saka "Asseina/assena "blue" (cf. Soghian *ahsane) or perhaps Tocharian Asna "blue", The Khotanese-Saka form seems closest to "Ashina." This nicely dovetails with the usage "Kök Türk," Blue Türks, found in the Kül Tegin / Bilge Qaghan inscription.

• source [15] and [19] is not verifiable

• source [18] Carter V. Findley says: The linguistically non-Turkic name, A-shih-na, probably comesfrom one of the Iranian languages of Central Asia and means “blue,” kök in Turkic, the color identified with the East, so that Kök Türk, another namefor the Türk Empire, meant the “Turks of the East.”"

• source [20]: “As a result, the incomprehensible“ Sovereign House of Co ”, indicated as the ancestors of the house of Ashin, turns into the“ Saki Land ”somewhere north of the Hun ... those lands where the Pazyryk mounds and the Ukok plateau "[34]," concludes SP Gushchin. taken from here, a pseudo-source. can't find any info who "S P Gushchin" is.

• source [24] and [42] here it says: "He suggests that it may derive from the Tocharian title arsilanci, stemming, perhaps, from a marital tie of the Türk with the Tocharians of Qocho (Beckwith 1987, 206-208). Shervashidze reads A-shih-na as *Ahsen(a)-sad (< Soghdian: Axsina "blue" + sad, an Iranian title) (1989, 79-80). This Iranian linguistic connection was first put forward by Haussig and Bailey. More recently, Sergei Kliashtornyi has revisisted this theme and, building on the earlier work, suggests that A-shih-na is the transcription of Khotanese-Saka "Asseina/assena "blue" (cf. Soghian *ahsane) or perhaps Tocharian Asna "blue", The Khotanese-Saka form seems closest to "Ashina." This nicely dovetails with the usage "Kök Türk," Blue Türks, found in the Kül Tegin / Bilge Qaghan inscription.

• source [22], R. N. Frye, here does not even mention Ashina!

I can not verify Rona Tas's content.

Conclusion, they are talking about the etymological origin as I have mentioned earlier.

It should be:

• Researchers including Peter Benjamin Golden, H. W. Haussig, S. G. Klyashtorny, Carter V. Findley, Rona-Tas have pointed out that etymological origin of Ashina might derive from Saka or Sogdian languages. Victor H. Mair says that Ashina, were migrants to southern Siberia, northern Mongolia, and are considerable number of Tocharian and Iranian loan words in Old Turkic, although a good number of these may have been acquire, especially Sogdian terms, when Sogdians were subject to the Turkic Khaganate.

• According to Klyashtorny, the origin myth of Ashina shared similarities with the Wusun, although there is a significant difference that, whereas in the Wusun myth the wolf saves the ancestor of the tribe, it is not as in the case of the Turks. He also adds that Turk system of beliefs linking at least some sections of the Turk ruling class to the Sogdians and, beyond them, to the Wusun.

Beshogur (talk) 20:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

References

The orginal edit which was made back then im 2014, as you can see the name section was changed into origin. And the "arguments" section was later added on. The edit seem suspicious and translated from Russian wikipedia where the translated text says:

"Other researchers, such as H. V. Haussig [4] , A. N. Bernshtam [5] , Yu. A. Zuev [6] , D. G. Savinov [7] , S. P. Gushchin [8] , Rhone-Tash [9] , RN Frye [10] , Findlay [11] , VU Mahpirov [12] , we hypothesized about Sako - Usun (Sogdian) Ashin origin: in their view, the roots of the ethnonym "Ashin »Should be sought in Sako - Usun clan anthroponymy."

As you can see it is about the ethnonym and badly written orginal research. Can't believe this stayed here for five years. Beshogur (talk) 01:04, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of factual dispute tags at Ashina tribe

WP:DT states clearly:

Many editors consider use of any banner template in an article a serious measure of last resort, and would prefer other measures be exhausted before such detractions from the project be used. If one must be used, please make a thorough note listing deficiencies or items being disputed in bulleted or numbered paragraph format under a clear notice section heading on the article's talk page.

Given Beshogur's multiple subtractions and revisions from this article, dating back to late November, his opportunity to use the dispute tags expired long ago. A proper procedure would have been to add the dispute tag in November, before he started censoring longstanding references and adding "citation needed" tags where they weren't necessary. After having attempted to independently re-write the article numerous times in the course of an hour; and his stated insistence at the Noticeboard that he "would not wait", for other editors to review his deleterious contributions, there is no sensible purpose in allowing him to place factual dispute tags on articles, having already violated proper procedural conduct in numerous ways for a long time. His use of the tags here are a last-ditch effort to cast doubt on reliable and reviewed citations on this article and Gokturks, which is simply WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Hunan201p (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

I think that using a DT tag is permissible at this time, as Beshogur has identified points of disagreement in the section above. While you disagree with Beshogur's points, there hasn't really been sufficient discussion to suggest that there is a consensus against Beshogur's suggestions (similarly, there is no clear consensus for Beshogur's proposed changes either). It seems unlikely to me that either you, Hunan201p, or Beshogur are likely to be convinced by the other (and arguing back and forth will just generate a wall of text that no uninvolved editor is going to want to sort through). I would thus suggest that both of you take a step back from the article and its discussion until other editors have weighed in as well (and judging from discussion in previous sections, it's not unreasonable to expect that other editors working on this article will chime in soon). If no one has responded for two weeks, I would suggest resolving the issue through an RfC. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:39, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

The use of dispute tags is outlined in WP:DT. It states that they "should normally not be used without a clear description from the applying editor of the rationale, preferably presented in a numbered list form on the article's talk page, in a section which includes the name of the template that was applied". Beshogur failed to do that in November of 2019 when he decided to start removing statements from the article and adding "CN" tags where they weren't needed. Beshogur has not "identified points of disagreeement", he has actively sought to suppress longstanding references reflecting a large academic consensus from the article. After all the attempts at suppression were exhausted here, and nearly every procedural policy violated time and time again, allowing a factual dispute is basically allowing Beshogur to slap an "IDONTLIKEIT" banner on the face of the article. This is clearly not a case that warrants a dispute tag, from a Turkic nationalist user who has repeatedly tried to unilaterally alter this article and who has a documented record of bombarding the Administrator's noticeboard with meritless complaints when all of his efforts to indepedently revise this article fail. See the page history dating back to November of 2019 in addition to the talk page. Hunan201p (talk) 21:59, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Again, have you read the sources? I've put them above. None of them says origin but etymological origin, especially that Wusun origin thing. Say, where am I wrong. Also thanks for not removed the text I've put about Wusun here Ashina_tribe#Legends. (this is the edit it should be, not "or possibly from the Indo-Aryan Wusun.[18]"). And if my edits were "POV pushing" why didn't you removed the infobox, you were trying to remove 4 times? So seems like I was right. Beshogur (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

There's no statute of limitations on this. Yes, it would have been preferable had this all been resolved on a talk page in November. The fact that it wasn't does not preclude Beshogur's right to object. Moreover, Beshogur has stated a list of suggestions and disagreements in the section above; objecting to the tag on the basis that they didn't perfectly follow the instructions on the template page to a T is wikilawyering. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:13, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

You're making your own interpretation of the WP:DT guidelines, which are not in line with what the page says: "[dispute tags] should normally not be used without a clear description from the applying editor of the rationale, preferably presented in a numbered list form on the article's talk page, in a section which includes the name of the template that was applied". You can't go back and add dispute tags based off your previous entries at the talk page; made hastily in explanation of deleterious edits that were reversed by Wario-Man and myself, after we urged him multiple times to back off the article and to *discuss* (and not merely to leave little receipts for) his ideas at the talk page. The way it works is for someone with no conflict of interest to leave a detailed explanation for their views and then to add the dispute tag. What Beshogur has done is to delete information from article, to make combative revisions and frivolous noticeboard complaints, to fail to allow discussion at the talk page from numerous editors, and in his own words, to refuse to wait for reviewers to look over his contributions/deletions. He has followed the procedure in reverse order, has made it clear he is a biased lone wolf editor with no regard for Wikipedia's standards, and is also a Turkic nationalist. He has no right to put that tag up there after this rampageous episode of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Hunan201p (talk) 22:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Template instructions are suggestions, not immutable laws. The specific sentence you're citing literally begins with the word "preferably": preferably presented in a numbered list form on the article's talk page, in a section which includes the name of the template that was applied. The article currently reflects the status quo from before Beshogur's edits, and they have started a discussion on the talk page, so there's no reason to continue haranguing them for not following BRD at the outset. Finally, please focus on the content and not the editor. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:05, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia project articles reflect a consensus that should be followed under normal circumstances. The damage that has done to this page has been paranormal. Note how you have chosen to ignore the context of the WP:DT by pointing out the use of specific *words*, while ignoring the context of entire *phrases* that I emphasized, as well as the broader context of the statement. WP:DT clearly states that dispute tags are a serious matter that should be applied responsibly under extraorinary circumstances. That means that a controversial user like Behshogur, the sole opposition to the page as it stood corrected by numerous editors, with a conflict of interest and a demonstrated willingness to to insert and redact perfectly well-referenced information from this article (to fit his POV), is well outside the bounds of what would be considered an appropriate user of this function in this article.

And to be clear, this article does not reflect the status quo as it was before Beshogur started revolutionizing it in November. Numerous perfectly sourced references remain censored and a lot of questionable material he has added since then. I have only managed to salvage some parts of what he has erased. Hunan201p (talk) 00:14, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

"However, many sources also describe the Ashina as having Turkic origins.[19]"

@Leppaberry-123:

This statement is false. There is nothing in Petr Charvat's 2010 reference that makes the claim that the Ashina have Turkic origins, much less that "many sources" suggest that they have Turkic origins. - Hunan201p (talk) 19:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Statements by Peter Golden and Oliver Nicholson, others

• "The early Turks are sometimes called Kök ('Blue, Heavenly') Türks (Orkhon inscriptions, 263-4), a calque of *Khotanese Saka āsseina 'blue', i.e. the Ashina clan. Their origin is unclear; Chinese annals trace their lineage back to the Xiongnu (Hsiung-nu). Certain aspects of Ashina-led Türk culture (eastward orientation, numeral system, some personal names) are not typically Turkic, suggesting a mixed ethnic origin."

• "Little is really known about the origins of the Türks. Their ruling clan bore the name Ashina probably an Eastern Iranian or Tokharian word" [...] "Bumïn, whose name, like those of many early Türk rulers is not Turkic," [...] "Sir derives from the sanskrit Sri (firtunate, auspicious), and Yabghu may be Iranian. These titles show the wide range of non-Turkic influences in the shaping of Türk imperial culture."

• High quality secondary source stating that the original Turks were not a homogeneic entity: https://brill.com/view/journals/inas/19/2/article-p197_197.xml

Hunan201p (talk) 20:03, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Their origin is unclear; Chinese annals trace their lineage back to the Xiongnu (Hsiung-nu), not "Saka" "Wusun", etymological origin. Ashina probably an Eastern Iranian or Tokharian word, again nothing about its origin, but etymological. "High quality secondary source stating that the original Turks were not a homogeneic entity" so what, this is about Ashina. You disprove yourself. Thanks. No problem, anyway I am going to take this dispute noticeboard soon. Beshogur (talk) 21:11, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Tiele origin of Ashina

I don't possess any copy of Duan (1988), Xue (1992), Lung (2011) and I admit that my Chinese is very rusty. Yet I don't think Richard L. Davis (with all due respect to him) has accurately translated Ouyang Xiu. Ouyang Xiu apparently classified Tiele, Yantuo, and Ashina as three greatest Western Turkic tribes, not that Yantuo & Ashina were Tiele. This is the Chinese original:

當是時，西突厥有鐵勒，延陀、阿史那之類為最大；其別部有同羅、僕骨、拔野古等以十數，蓋其小者也；又有處月、處密諸部，又其小者也。朱邪者，處月別部之號耳

My translation

During that time, Western Turks had Tiele, Yantuo, Ashina group/kind as the greatest; [as for] their other/splinter tribes [Western Turks] had Tongluo, Bugu, Bayegu, etc. numbering about ten, overall they were all small. [Western Turks] also had all those Chuyue, Chumi tribes, they were also all small. These Zhuxie, another splinter tribe of Chuyue.

@Erminwin: It's been nearly two years since you posted it, but yes, thank you for noticing this. The historical source does not say that the Ashina were of Tiele origin.

Predictably, the 'verifiable' secondary sources propose a completely different version of reality than the current Wikipedia entry. 

Quoting Lee & Kuang (2017), who reiterate:

The nomadic people who spread the Turkic language and the name "Türk" beyond the Mongolian steppes were the Kök Türks (Tujue 突厥 in Chinese), led by the Ashina clan. Importantly, Chinese histories do not describe them as descending from the Dingling or as belonging to the Tiele confederation.10 The Zhoushu (c. 630s ad), for instance, describes them as ‘a separate tribe of the Xiongnu (匈奴之別種)’ (Zhoushu 50.907) or ascribes their origin to the Suo state (suo guo 索國) located to the north of the Xiongnu (Zhoushu 50.908).

So it looks like the Tiele association may be a mistaken assumption. - Hunan201p (talk) 19:45, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ashina clan (Japan) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:23, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Mongolian origin

One theory confirms the Mongolian ešin (aš) word for wife in Mongolian. And the final ending -as is a plural suffix. —22:59, 8 April 2022 (UTC)~

Correcting some mistakes

Muqan Qaghan, there is no a single source that says his eyes are blue. In fact the word "瑠璃" mean glaze and "琉璃" glass. Lapis Luzali in Chinese is "青金石"

Zhoushu, vol. 50 "狀貌多奇異，面廣尺餘，其色甚赤，眼若瑠璃。" Beishi vol. 99 "狀貌奇異，面廣尺餘，其色赤甚，眼若琉璃。"

Correct translation " Its appearance is very strange, its face is more than a foot wide, its color is very red, and its eyes are like glass."

According to Chinese scientist Xue Zongzheng, Ashina people looking like West Eurasian represents Sogdian and looking like a East Eurasian is Chinese. So he is claiming the ruling class of Gokturks were mostly Chinese. He is also said looking like "Sogdian " is not akin to looking like Turkic and that's because Qilibi Khan looked Sogdian and didn't look Turkic compared to other Gokturks rulers of the Ashina clan. That means Turkic people look like East Asian.

Turkic people were already mixture of East Eurasians and West Eurasians so it's natural they would look like all Gokturk rulers. Or are you telling me the Yenisei Kirghiz were also West Eurasian looking people aswell and later became East Asian by mixing with Chinese. Anthropology data already showed Yenisei Kirghiz were different from being racially western eurasian people. According to this Xue, the Gokturks rulers were East Asian looking Chinese rulers ruling a Turkic empire. East Asian looks were a Turkic thing to begin with.Ghizz Archus (talk) 19:31, 27 May 2022 (UTC)