Talk:MP4 file format

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MP4 and ISOBMFF are open formats, even if an access fee is required

According to Open file format, "the specification of an open format may require a fee to access". Some recent edits to the infobox have stated that MP4 and ISO base media file format (ISOBMFF) are not open (the same as a trade secret), referencing GitHub issues about ISOBMFF, which are not as reliable as the Library of Congress sources that state that both MP4 and ISOBMFF are open formats. The justification in those GitHub issues was that, because the standard is not accessible without a fee, it should therefore be considered not open, which is incorrect. Although MP4 and ISOBMFF are open, they are not free as they require paying licensing fees. This is also listed in their infoboxes. Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

you're not editing in good faith. you've reverted several times without gaining consensus. also, you seem to be conflating the point of "is the format open" versus "is this link appropriate". tackle the issues separately. Svnpenn (talk) 01:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

The link to the current version of the standard has been added as requested. The link to ISO/IEC 14496-14:2003, which is the first edition of version 2, was already in the text, it only required browsing the ISO website through the Life cycle section, or using a web search engine to look for the latest iteration in MP4 file format § History, ISO/IEC 14496-14:2020. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 03:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

As the reference supports the information about the status, it is clear that the two cannot be treated separately, otherwise the text would become incoherent. The important point, however, is that the format is open and that the Library of Congress was and still is a much more reliable reference than some discussions on GitHub. Your reverts reintroduced an error and two less reliable references. A direct link to the standard is a welcome addition, but was not necessary to correct the previous information. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 04:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MP4_file_format#MP4_and_ISOBMFF_are_not_open_formats --Svnpenn (talk) 19:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Like MP4, there's also the notable C programming language (ISO/IEC 9899), which is not a format but is generally considered an open standard, even though a fee is required to access the final text of the standard (the final draft is available online for free, but it differs from the final published text in some details).

Simple web searches for "is the C language an "open standard"" and "is the MP4 format an "open standard"" find many discussions (mostly on forums, blogs and smaller technology news sources) supporting the general view of that these standards are open even under an access fee. Unlike the Library of Congress, most of these sources are not of the highest standard as reliable references (just like GitHub), but they demonstrate the general understanding of this terminology by a broad audience.

So, the "zero cost access" requirement is not generally applied to the notions of open standard and open format, although some organizations (Open standard § Comparison of definitions) associate this requirement with these terms.

Moreover, most legal definions of "open format" in various jurisdictions do not impose a "zero-cost access" requirement. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 13:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

3O

Hello, I'm responding to a request for more information at WP:3O. At a glance, I see contested sources that are links to Github. Github is not a good source per WP:USERGENERATED. The source at [1] appears to clearly indicate the format is open; is there any reason to doubt the veracity of that source?

Aside from the content question: accusations of bad faith do no help build consensus and have no place in article talk space. VQuakr (talk) 17:34, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

MP4 and ISOBMFF are not open formats

according to Wikipedia's own page:

> An open file format is licensed with an open license

<https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_file_format>

following, we get:

> A free license or open license is a license which allows others to reuse another creator’s work as they wish. Without a special license, these uses are normally prohibited by copyright, patent or commercial license.

<https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_license>

continuing, we have this copyright notice:

> © All Rights Reserved

https://iso.org/standard/83102.html

and even the standard itself is clearly marked as well:

> © 2022 ISO/IEC — All rights reserved

https://iso.org/obp#iso:std:iso-iec:14496:-12

Svnpenn (talk) 19:38, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

for a further demonstration of the difference, here is some constrasting text from ACTUALLY open formats, ones covered by RFCs:

> All RFCs may be freely reproduced and translated (unmodified).

https://www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#copyright

the ISO standards in question explicitly forbid reproduction:

> All IEC Publications are protected by the publisher's copyright and no part of any IEC Publication can be reproduced or utilized in any form or by any means (graphic, electronic or mechanical including photocopying) without the written permission of the publisher (please see Copyright on IEC Standards in Database Format).

https://www.iec.ch/copyright Svnpenn (talk) 20:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

An open file format is licensed with an open license

The reference supporting this statement in Open file format is opendefinition.org/ofd/ which has two definitions for an open format, neither of which supports this statement explicitly (the first seems to suggest it, the second certainly does not). This statement was added in March 2022 by a new editor who is now inactive. Prior to that, the introduction of Open file format reflected the definition now further down in the article, which partially contradicts this:

According to The Linux Information Project, the term open format should refer to "any format that is published for anyone to read and study but which may or may not be encumbered by patents, copyrights or other restrictions on use" – as opposed to a free format which is not encumbered by any copyrights, patents, trademarks or other restrictions.

This definition is consistent with "open format for data - definition 2" at opendefinition.org/ofd/ and with the meaning of "open standard" used by the Library of Congress. The same article also contains the following:

In contrast to open file formats, closed file formats are considered trade secrets.

This is clearly not the case with MP4 and ISOBMFF.

Also, open license ≠ open format. MP4 and ISOBMFF are open and proprietary (not free) formats. These formats are also defined by open standards. See Open standard § Comparison of definitions in the "Availability / Free of charge" column. Open file format § Examples of open formats also lists formats described as open (royalty-free with a one-time fee on the standard).

What Free license is talking about is the license that applies to work distributed making use of a specific format, not the license of the standard itself, such as whether someone is allowed to create their own extensions and modifications to the standard. The article on Free license also does not distinguish between the ideas of free and open and its content is quite superficial on this subject.

As pointed out by VQuakr in Talk:MP4 file format § 3O and others at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 368 § Github as reliable source for software topics, GitHub discussions are a primary source of user-generated content which is generally unacceptable in Wikipedia per WP:USERGENERATED. These GitHub references and their interpretation of the terms open and free are not as reliable as the Library of Congress and should not be reintroduced into the article by anyone who knows and is really trying to follow Wikipedia's reliable source guidelines.

for a further demonstration of the difference, here is some constrasting text from ACTUALLY open formats, ones covered by RFCs

www.rfc-editor.org/faq/#copyright

Just because RFCs, some of which define formats, are available without a fee and are open standards, doesn't mean MP4 isn't an open format, it depends on the definition of "open format". --Fernando Trebien (talk) 23:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

> The reference supporting this statement in Open file format is opendefinition.org/ofd/ which has two definitions for an open format, neither of which supports this statement explicitly (the first seems to suggest it, the second certainly does not).

from the link:

> The Open Definition has three key requirements for a work to be open: an open license, open access, and an open format.

https://opendefinition.org/ofd/

since MP4 fails the requirement of an open license, it fails the definition of an open format.

> According to The Linux Information Project, the term open format should refer to "any format that is published for anyone to read and study but which may or may not be encumbered by patents, copyrights or other restrictions on use" – as opposed to a free format which is not encumbered by any copyrights, patents, trademarks or other restrictions.

right, so according to your own cited definition, MP4 is not an open format, because its not published for anyone to read, only those who can afford to pay for it.

> Also, open license ≠ open format.

no one is conflating the two. quoting myself again:

> An open file format is licensed with an open license

continuing:

> See Open standard § Comparison of definitions in the "Availability / Free of charge" column.

no one is arguing free of charge, its a paid item.

> As pointed out by VQuakr in Talk:MP4 file format § 3O and others at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 368 § Github as reliable source for software topics, GitHub discussions are a primary source of user-generated content which is generally unacceptable in Wikipedia per WP:USERGENERATED.

noted, I will use this link instead:

https://opendefinition.org/ofd/ Svnpenn (talk) 03:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Svnpenn: that link doesn't mention the MP4 format and therefore shouldn't be used to support a statement about the standard being open or closed per WP:SYNTH. The standard appears to be described as open at [2], doesn't it? VQuakr (talk) 03:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

what business does LOC have over determining what is and is not an open format? any labeling of formats as open by the LOC would seem to be an opinion at best Svnpenn (talk) 05:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

That's what we need to make the assessment, opinions and assessments of third parties. VQuakr (talk) 05:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

So far you have not provided any alternative sources other than a link to a specific organization's definition of "open." That's faulty generalization. opendefinition.org is maintained by the Open Knowledge Foundation whose definition of openness is The Open Definition. It doesn't appear to be that notable, as it isn't even mentioned in Open standard and it is only mentioned in Open file format in the now questioned reference. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 11:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

And as this reference does not mention the MP4 file format, it cannot be used to support that it is not an open format. But the Library of Congress supports that it is an open format. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 11:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately, the discussion about definitions should continue in Talk:Open standard. Here, we should only discuss whether MP4 is open or not based on reliable references that explicitly connect MP4 with a status such as open, closed, or proprietary. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

And yet another problem with using opendefinition.org/ofd/ as reference is that it appears to be user-generated content based on its significant evolution and this GitHub thread. A better reference (on the "openness" of formats in general, not on the openness of MP4 in particular), also by Open Knowledge Foundation, would be opendatahandbook.org/glossary/en/terms/open-format/, which states that Often, but not necessarily, the structure of an open format is set out in agreed standards, overseen and published by a non-commercial expert body. Although ISO requires a fee to access the text of the MP4 standard, it is not a commercial organization in the traditional sense, it is not for profit and the fee only pays its operational costs. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 15:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Another problem with using opendefinition.org/ofd/ as a reference is that its content is clearly indicated as a draft at the beginning, with text asking for help, whereas the Library of Congress source is a fully realized draft since 2012. --Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I dont think tearing down https://opendefinition.org/ofd/ is a good use of anyone's time. regardless of its faults, its still referenced by Wikipedia in regards to this issue, as it should be, and its still a better source than LOC. the LOC is a government agency, not a technical one, and as such should not be relied upon as an arbiter in this discussion. Svnpenn (talk) 16:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

This is a great example of why we avoid circular references and original synthesis. VQuakr (talk) 01:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Edit request

Please replace the following two parameters in {{Infobox file format}} with the following content:

| open          = Yes<ref name="loc" /><ref name="v2ed3">{{cite tech report |publisher=[[International Organization for Standardization|ISO]] |type=Standard |number=ISO/IEC 14496-14:2020 |title=Information technology – Coding of audio-visual objects – Part 14: MP4 file format |edition=3rd |date=January 2020 |url=https://www.iso.org/standard/79110.html |url-access=subscription}}</ref>
| free          = No<ref name="loc">{{cite tech report |publisher=Library of Congress |location=Washington, D.C. |series=Sustainability of Digital Formats |type=Full draft |title=MPEG-4 File Format, Version 2 |date=25 April 2023 |url=https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd000155.shtml |access-date=23 February 2024}}</ref>

This restores the content that the Open format? field of the infobox had from December 2021 to January 2024 (though during this period it did not have an explicit reference) and also restores reliable references that state that the MP4 file format is open. The current references only define what open means without mentioning MP4. They were first added at the last minute before article protection and there was no consensus that they supported this interpretation of the open status of MP4. Fernando Trebien (talk) 10:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

This request seems central to the dispute above. Are you claiming there is consensus for this edit? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:06, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems so to me, but just to be sure, @VQuakr: do you agree or disagree with this request? --Fernando Trebien (talk) 14:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Fernando Trebien: that appears to be the central question of the dispute taking up several sections above and at Talk:ISO base media file format. Since the edit warring has continued after a third opinion was provided, I think discussion at WP:DRN or use of a WP:RFC would be the best path forward. VQuakr (talk) 15:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

disagree. I am not sure how you could possibly come to the conclusion that consensus has been reached, unless you've ignore the discussion over the last days. Svnpenn (talk) 16:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

vandalism of related articles to push agenda

note this user:

User:Ftrebien

is now vandalising other articles to push their agenda that MP4 is an open format:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Open_file_format&diff=prev&oldid=1211602265 Svnpenn (talk) 17:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)