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Revision as of 21:27, 19 April 2007

Featured articleBarack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 18, 2004.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 5, 2004Featured article candidatePromoted
January 23, 2007Featured article reviewKept
Current status: Featured article

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This talk page is automatically archived by MiszaBot I. Any sections older than 10 days are automatically archived.

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Small Text== The exhaustive controversies survey. ==

Using the words controversy and scrutiny are meaningless-- what did he do that was terrible? Nothing.

Smearing another human being requires very little intelligence. People who love to do it the most tend to be of low character themselves.

128.138.230.150 18:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Without question, Sen. Barack Obama's actions have come under intense scrutiny since announcing his bid for the White House. Allegations of controversy have arisen concerning many elements of Sen. Obama's life and person, including on this article's Talk page. Some dispute whether or not many of these elements even qualify as controversial, and many dispute these elements based upon notability. It's the goal of this survey to gather a snapshot of consensus concerning the notability of these many elements.

If you are a subscriber to the opinion essay "polls are evil," you're in no way required to participate. No one's forcing you, I simply ask that you not go out of your way to disrupt those who don't mind using a snapshot format.

I gathered most of these items from Talk page archives, and tried to present them as accurately and neutrally as possible. In some cases, I could not find extensive sources, but used the sources listed by past Talk participants. If I have missed any items/elements, feel free to add them in a sub-section with format similar to those below.

Please add *Notable or *Not notable following each item, based upon whether or not you feel each item is notable enough for inclusion in the article, then sign your vote with ~~~~.

2004: Denied 'unequivocally' running for president in 2008

"I was elected yesterday," Obama said. "I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I've never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I'm immediately going to start running for higher office just doesn't make sense. So look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I'm the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois." [1]

Race and "blackness"

Since his Senate race in 2004, some American politicians and commentators, many African-American, have asserted that Sen. Obama is not "African-American" or not "black like me" because he was not descended from American slaves. His "blackness" has been questioned.

[2]

I agree that this would be a good place for it. Would you care to give it a shot yourself, HailFire? Italiavivi 21:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think the most notable info has already be added by previous edits citing commentators Younge (The Nation), Crouch (New York Daily News), and Page (Houston Chronicle) <click on author's names to see where each is cited and to read their articles>. The reader is presented with sharply contrasting viewpoints ("Black Like Me," "Not Black Like Me," and "...Silly Question") and can decide for him/herself what's controversy and what's just useful, notable information. There's certainly other sources we could add, but I'm not sure they would offer anything new beyond what's already eloquently addressed in these three articles. --HailFire 22:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I should have clicked before I typed—the links to both the Crouch and Page articles are now broken. If they can't be recovered (just tried), we should come up with alternative wording and sources. For starters, there's this and this. --HailFire 22:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC); Also this, possibly this, and certainly this. --HailFire 11:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Trying this. --HailFire 06:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • COMMENT: He has to deal with racism just like any other Black person-- plus Kenya was under British colonial rule (a brutal Racist system) and his ancestors suffered under that system. People who say he isn't African American are really narrow-minded. Is there only one way to be African American? Who here is pretending to 'decide' who gets to be Black and who doesn't? Ridiculous. 128.138.173.224 06:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC) (reinstated this as a comment and moved to bottom of section)[reply]
  • Notable, but only because people have made it an issue. His not being the so-called "American Black" is not inherently important but people have started talking about it. Also, he's just as African American as the next guy. He also would have to face racism just like anyone else, because his skin color is Black, and Americans are great at making assumptions (I mean come on, don't deny it, we are). Stop Me Now! 01:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Antoin Rezko real estate

In November 2006, Barack Obama acknowledged his participation in a real estate deal to which Antoin "Tony" Rezko, an Obama campaign contributor, was a participant. Under the deal, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining properties, with Rezko later reselling part of his parcel to Obama. No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama acknowledges that the exchange may have appeared improper, and said "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it." [3]

  • Not Notable, if my understanding is right. All it says is he and another guy bought property and the other guy later sold it back to him. Unless some details were included that were signifigant, I would avoid stuffing it into the article.
  • Not notable Nothing illegal or unlawful happened, yet the inclusion in the article makes it appear as if something wrong happened. This is a kind of weasel wording. Khorshid 06:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

George W. Haywood stock investing

Sen. Obama purchased more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors. Obama said he “did not see any potential conflict in getting advice, in terms of a stockbroker,” from Mr. Haywood. The senator said he told the broker he wanted an “aggressive strategy” for investing, but he did not identify stocks, and has referred to their arrangement as a blind trust. Obama later sold the stocks at a net loss of $13,000.

Criticism of Wal-Mart and Wake Up Wal-Mart support

Sen. Obama is a vocal supporter of Wake Up Wal-Mart. He has criticized Wal-Mart's labor standards, including pay rates and allegedly diminished benefits. [4]

Voting "present" as Illinois state senator

As a state senator, Sen. Obama voted "present" on some bills related to abortion, concealed firearms, and strip club zoning. Obama's campaign has explained that in some cases, the Senator was uncomfortable with only certain parts of a bill, while in other cases, the bills were attempts by Republicans simply to "score points." [5]

Hussein

Due to America's familiarity with Saddam Hussein, some have drawn attention to Sen. Obama's middle name also being Hussein. Polling indicates that many believe Obama's middle name will hurt him in a presidential election [6], and Republican Party supporters have drawn attention to his middle name (referring to Obama in full as "Barack Hussein Obama") on several occasions. [7] Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Notable, despite this being fallacious race-baiting smear at its absolute worst. Right or wrong, his middle name is controversial to Americans, and Republican Party operatives are openly waving his middle name about as a tactic. Decidedly notable, for better or worse. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable, or at least not a controversy. (How can someone's given name be controversial? What it is is a place where idiots can attack; that's not controversy, though. Minor point of vulnerability.) --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 18:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable We very clearly include his middle name right up there on the top. It's the second word of the article. Any attempt to use his middle name as a campaign issue belongs on the person doing the campaigning first, on his campaign page second. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable for the well-articulated reasons above. 128.103.14.115 01:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable Hmm, I could see a Silly Anti-Barack Obama tactics being made for things like people using his name against him, heh. But I don't think it belongs in his biography, along with the Fox News madrassah controversy. --Ubiq 02:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable His name is not "controversial," but it is certainly interesting. People want to know what his name indicates about his background and heritage. This is a perfect example where the people trying to protect Obama may be hurting him by suppressing discussion of this issue. Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable The first sentence in the article covers it. - PoliticalJunkie 20:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable - again, this is an issue that Americans will want to look into, and the information about the "controversy" of his middle name should be listed so as to provide a more thorough account. If he loses because of name recognition you can guarantee it will be listed, so why not take note of it now - think outside the box. - Eisenmond 21:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable Especially not in regards to Barack Obama, put it under Stupid Americans. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kinda Sorta Obama does make mention of it in The Audacity of Hope, but that was regarding to his Senate career. Shakam
  • Not notable per my reasons below. This is an extremely, extremely common and ordinary Muslim name, akin to "Smith" or "Peters" in the US. It has no negative connotations at all in any Muslim country. It is only in Western countries, unfortunately, that the connection is always made with Saddam. I personally know several people who have changed their names from "Hossein" because they were constantly harassed in school or at work or had trouble finding jobs because of this. I can tell you that this is one of the main reasons that Iranians in the US and the disapora in general, even religious ones, rarely give their children Muslim names anymore. Even in Iran its becoming less and less common for these reasons. Khorshid 06:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not Notable beyond simply stating his full name once at the beginning of the article. I doubt you could describe the way the right-wingers are doing the Saddam name association game without some POV. KyuzoGator 17:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable, for reasons stated above, namely Silly Anti-Barack Obama tactics mentioned by Ubiq. Deezoin 05:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • not-notable unless we start seeing ads along the lines of; "Think Barack is the choice for president? Well, his middle name is Hussein, a known terrorist name. 'Barack Obama, he's a terrorist.'" ReverendG 23:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Obama/Osama

CNN mistakenly used Obama's last name instead of "Osama" in the headline of a report on the hunt for al-Qaeda's leader. [8] Yahoo News mistakenly attached a photograph of Obama to a caption which read "Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida." [9] Both CNN and Yahoo! have issued apologies/explanations. Fox News chief Roger Ailes has deliberately switched Bin Laden's name with Obama's in jokes. [10]

  • Not notable. Typographical/technical errors might be warranted on the news outlets' articles, but decidedly not here. Roger Ailes' remark belongs at Fox News alongside a section on the Nevada Democratic Party canceling a Fox-hosted debate due to the "joke." Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe notable in an article about CNN's copy editors or whoever writes the headlines. Roger Ailes' very funny hah hah jokes might have a place as an example of Republican cheap shots, but that's about it. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 18:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable See above Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable While I disagree that they were "mistakes", it would seemingly need to belong only in the respective articles for CNN and Yahoo either way. --Ubiq 02:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable Better to address this than stick our heads in the sand and pretend it's not an issue. This mix-up has happened over and over. Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable But does it merit mention at the presidential campaign page? (Someone recently added it there) - PoliticalJunkie 20:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable - Ted Kennedy even made this mistake on the campaign trail, or senate floor, or something... I remember... It keeps happening, and it will stick in people's mind. The issue is very notable - Eisenmond 21:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable Same as Hussein being his middle name.. Stupid Americans. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable i agree, this is being blown out of proportion, is this the only dirt the media can dig up about Obama?--Lerdthenerd 09:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable per Bobblehead and others. The way some people gave people with the name "Hussein/Hossein" total hell (causing many to go so far as to legally change their names and having difficulties in finding work) after Desert Storm and then of course in recent years, is reflective of why we should avoid making such connections here. This kind of ignorance knows no bounds. Khorshid 06:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not notable he does discuss it actually in both of his books, very briefly though. He mentions people saying that voters will be detered by his name, and in the Audacity of Hope he refers to a group (cant remember specifically, but he was speaking very generally) calling him "Osama Obama". Tekjester 23:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Effort to quit smoking

Sen. Obama is a smoker [11], and is in the middle of a public effort to quit smoking [12]. His effort includes the use of Nicorette, a nicotine replace gum. Michelle Obama agreed to her husband's presidential campaign on the condition that he cease smoking for good, and calls herself "the one who outed" her husband's smoking. [13] Fox News' John Gibson covered Obama's smoking as a "dirty little secret" during a Fox News broadcast. [14] A "Quit Smoking with Obama" effort has been assembled by participants on Obama's campaign site. [15]

  • Notable. Michelle Obama's reluctance for her husband to run for president was widely covered prior to his announcement, and that his agreement to quit smoking played a part in assuaging her concerns is decidedly notable. He has been public and open about his effort to quit smoking, despite attempts by political opponents to use it as an attack. Multiple reliable sources, including primary source interviews with himself and his wife specifically on the subject. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable While I agree that smoking in general, even in a politician, is not notable, his campaign staff have made it notable with the "Quit Smoking" group. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable to an extent I agree that the Quit Smoking bit is notable, but I think referring to him as a "smoker" is false, especially if he's quit. So we'd have to be careful. --Ubiq 02:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's quite fascinating is that there seems to be more concern for his status as a wannabe ex-smoker thn there is for his African ancestry. The times they are a-changing. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 03:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable For reasons described above. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable It's playing a role in his campaign, one article I read talked about him chewing Nicorette gum. His effort to stop smoking has become extremely open and public. - PoliticalJunkie 20:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable - With all the current smoking backlash, including states banning smoking in places of business across the country, his smoking habit is a big deal... Remember the Dole campaign in 1996? The cigarette costume guy was everywhere... still a big deal! - Eisenmond 21:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable - But only as a sentence in the 2008 Presidential election section and only in regards to him promising to quit smoking in exchange for his wife letting him run. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable - it is notable, it is a fact, the people are obviously interested into the issue, so it should be seen on here Vegeta206 22:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism from Australian Prime Minister John Howard

Shortly after Sen. Obama officially announced his candidacy for president, Australian Prime Minister John Howard unleashed a scathing attack of Obama's stance on the Iraq War. [16] Howard said "I think that would just encourage those who wanted completely to destabilise and destroy Iraq, and create chaos and victory for the terrorists to hang on and hope for (an) Obama victory," and that "If I was running al-Qaeda in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008, and pray, as many times as possible, for a victory not only for Obama, but also for the Democrats." Obama brushed aside Howard's criticism, characterizing him as a close personal friend of George W. Bush, and highlighting Australia's comparative troop contribution in Iraq. Howard was harshly criticized by Australian opposition leader Kevin Rudd, Republican U.S. Senator John Cornyn of Texas, and several others in response.

False "madrassa" report/smear/attack

See Insight Magazine#Madrassa. A false report originating from Washington Times-owned Insight Magazine accuses one of Sen. Obama's elementary schools in Indonesia of being an Islamic seminary (a "wahhabist" "madrassa"), and alleges Sen. Obama to have been a Muslim in the past. [17] The report bears a resemblance to a false email forward that has been in circulation for some time. [18] The report also claims to have received their information from operatives of Sen. Hillary Clinton. The claims against the school itself are debunked by a CNN investigation in Jakarta [19], claims of Sen. Obama having ever been a Muslim are refuted by himself, and Sen. Clinton denies any involvement with Insight Magazine whatsoever. Fox News issued a retraction, warning their reporters to take care with information retrieved from the internet. [20]

"claims of Sen. Obama having ever been a Muslim are refuted by himself"

Sorry. This doesn't pass the critical thinking test. If Obama really ever was a Muslim do you really think he would let people know about it?129.98.225.131 16:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mother's ancestors owned slaves

Five out of six African Americans have White ancestry. A lot of those white ancestors owned slaves. So this is not any different than most Black Americans. Also-- what his ancestors did has no bearing on him. If my grandfather was a bank robber that would not make me a criminal.

128.138.230.150 18:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Two of Sen. Obama's ancestors, a great-great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great-great-great-grandmother on his mother's side [21], each owned two slaves.

Parking tickets at Harvard

During the exploratory phase of his candidacy, Obama paid off $375 worth of parking tickets and late fees that he incurred during law school at Harvard. [22]

He was never accused of buying stocks and then proposing fundng that would benefit those stocks. There are no allegations of illegality or ethics violations. Mykll42 23:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"not easily pegged to typical U.S. categories of the left or right"?

Hi. While I am inclined to support Obama (we're both left-handed smokers), my BS detector lights up a little after reading this. In the Political Image section it describes him as being neither lefty nor righty. He's been against the Iraq war since day one (a position typically reserved for the extremes on both sides - like Ron Paul or Denis Kucinich), is pro-choice and advocates universal healthcare. In 2007 America this combination puts you on the left. Not neccessarily far from the center, but absolutely NOT on the right half of the scale. If there are some lesser known positions that move him to the right, you really ought to mention them. I'd have to unfortunately agree with the swiftboaters above who speculate that this page has been 'caputured' by members of his campaign. 24.98.251.37 23:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, throughout the article, it is clear where his political allegiances lie. The section you're referring to is specifically referring to his "image", and cites numerous reliable sources that allude to the bipartisanship he has displayed throughout his career, and does not say that his beliefs are anywhere other than on the liberal side of the American political spectrum. I agree that we can probably make that more clear in the text. (Also, it isn't very nice to make the claim that you did at the end, as it's entirely untrue.) —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 23:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article clearly states on numerous occasions that he's a Democrat. The line you're referring to is more of a comment on his insistence to treat each political issue individually, instead of adhering to party lines for the sake of party/political reasons. Did you not read the rest of the section? It has multiple criticisms, etc. --Ubiq 23:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to know just why he is so popular in the democratic party. How does someone so young and with so little experience get seen as such a visionary? Everything I have read about his politics leads me believe he is moderate democrat ideologically close to both Clintons. I do not get any notion that he is suggesting anything particularly new. Yet there is all the buz around him versus any other Democratic Senator? If anyone has some ideas about this I would very much like to see them discussed here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Custodiet ipsos custodes (talk • contribs).

Because the democrats are race hucksters at every turn. Sadly, blacks tend to overwhelmingly vote democrat anyway, so he is really more bluster than anything.Ernham 01:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is not our place to speculate. We are only here to write the article about him. All we can do is cite what reputable sources have said about him. Anything else would fall under WP:NOR. Please remember that this is not the place to discuss Barak, but the place to discuss the article about Barak. --StuffOfInterest 12:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then whose place is it to speculate???? Hello? The point of the discussion page is go places and talk about things that wont make it on the main page. (Again I am not advocating putting original research on the main page.) One could though explain with sources his popularity. If it can be done this way it is essential to an article about him. In the future when people look back at him in history they will be wondering why he was so popular. This is a very important point. History is not just dry facts but an explanation of them to provide coherence to those facts. If this is not the place where is the place??? Custodiet ipsos custodes 19:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe StuffOfInterest is talking about WP:TALK where it says the talk page is to only discuss improving the article. So, if you want to discuss why he's popular, perhaps you should head over to one of the discussion boards dedicated to talking politics. However, if you'd like to add why he is popular to this article, I'd suggest you find a reliable source that explains that. One thing I've noticed is that requesting others to look up information for you tends to be ignored. --Bobblehead 20:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"One thing I've noticed is that requesting others to look up information for you tends to be ignored." - given the importance of the question especially because Barak Obama may be the next President of the United States perhaps those doing the ignoring should stop and think....Custodiet ipsos custodes
You're raising a question about why he's popular - it's bothering you, you believe that is something that ought to be addressed in the article, am I right? I think what Stuff and Bobble are saying is that the best way to proceed is for you, a person who has expressed interest in the topic, to do some research and see if you find reliable sources that speak to this, then add it, or post it here on talk for discussion about if, how and where to add it. There are a lot of things to be considered in this article - each of us focuses on what we think is important - so if you think this is important to be included, find something to include and I'm sure you'll find people here to talk about its inclusion. Bobblehead is just pointing out that leaving your concern here and expecting others to share it and research it is less likely to get a result than doing it yourself and giving the group something to work with. We're all busy - do the legwork and then let's talk. Tvoz |talk 22:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Barack Obama place

Barack Obama is in third place according to this poll [23]

redundant section - see imediately above

O.k., this is the talk page. Let's discuss this paragraph.

"Obama has been heavily criticized for his vote on a series of bills while serving in the Illinois State Senate that sought to protect the infant survivors of botched abortions. In 2001, Sen. Obama voted "present" on bills S.B. 1093, S.B. 1094, and S.B. 1095 even though he has been supportive of abortion in the past. Obama explained his problems with the "born alive" bills, specifically arguing that they would overturn Roe v. Wade. But he failed to mention that he only felt strongly enough to vote "present" on the bills instead of "no." He also failed to mention how giving medical attention to babies who were already born "overturned" any existing laws."

Pic82101 00:21, 8 April 2007 (EST)

See the section immediately above this one. Tvoz |talk 00:32, 8 April 2007

Housekeeping Duties / Cleaning Up Article

Article excessively long?

This article is over 100k long, which seems to indicate that the creation of a number of child articles are in order here. The Senate career section is almost 30k in length on it's own and could be easily copied and pasted into a Senate career of Barack Obama article and then expanded/reformatted into a quality article. I could even see the senate campaign moved off to the career article with a short6 summary of the sections left here hitting the high points of the election and his senate career. The cultural and political image section is also ripe for being made into a summary for a child article. The political advocacy section and the presidential election section seem to be excessively long for summaries of another article. I know there isn't a chance in heck of getting this article down to 32k without leaving a pile of drek behind, but it should be doable to reduce the length down to a more acceptable and quality 60k with a proper application of WP:SS. What does everyone else think? --Bobblehead 02:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After copy and pasting the printable version to an edit window and removing the Notes, References, Further reading, and External links sections, I get "This page is 32 kilobytes long." See Wikipedia:Article size#What is and is not included as "readable prose". --HailFire 09:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia says this article is 102kb. Clicking on the link, it recommends articles be 32 kb but says that the size doesn't have to be strictly followed because there aren't too many obsolete browsers. Still, the article is long. There are sections broken out but then there's still a lot of text in those same sections. I just looked at Mitt Romney's article. He was Governor yet his article is short and sweet, not so wordy like this one. Granted, his needs to be beefed up a little. Anyone want to try?
Again, with regard to the interface saying 102kb, please see Wikipedia:Article size#What is and is not included as "readable prose" as linked above. Italiavivi 02:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Consider

  • Cutting out 2004 Democratic Convention speech. What is notable was that Obama gave the speech. That's what his claim to fame and recognition comes from, not the contents of the speech. Likewise, the late Governor Ann Richards came into the spotlight for the same reason. However, nothing she said was notable except the silver spoon joke. Do you remember what she said? See how lack of notability these convention speeches are!
  • Presidential Campaign section. Why do we need to devote 8 lines to his announcement speech? This is an article, not a campaign press release. If we treat Bush and Clinton in the same respect, then their articles would be 50 times longer because of their many speeches. Equal treatment is what we should strive for because that is NPOV. Unequal treatment hints of POV or at least unintentional POV. What's important is that he announced and was predicted for a while that he would announce before he actually did.
  • Political advocacy section. This is just a rehash of a link to "Political positions of Barack Obama" article. Consider moving all of this out to that link.
  • Cultural and Political Image Section. This is all opinion. What ever happened to the NPOV? In the US, there are probably half a million different opinions on the guy's image, if not more. If people want to save it, consider a new article and link to "Public Image of Barack Obama".....(edit: oh, that's just what Bobblehead said)

KMCtoday 01:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I very strongly disagree with your proposed removals. As pointed out above, this article's readable prose is well within guidelines. Italiavivi 02:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yup. This article gets nailed by the amount of references used in it, alas. Oh, the irony. --Bobblehead 02:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I completely disagree with the proposal as well. First, it's not necessary: as was noted several times above, the readable prose is within recommended guidelines. If you follow that link you'll see what we're referring to. The references are comprehensive - that's a good thing - and that's part of what adds to the total amount of K you saw. But the guideline is about "readable prose" and we've worked to keep it within those guidelines. On your other points, much discussion has taken place and continues to on the talk pages about what should be included and what not, and we've shortened and lengthened sections, and forked off sections to separate articles, and added things that were earlier deemed less notable, changing emphasis as events dictate, and have done it pretty successfully by consensus. I expect that will continue, as we have a lot of eyes on this article. As for the article on Mitt Romney - it sounds like a good project. Good luck with it. Tvoz |talk 03:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree as well. This is a well referenced article. Ronbo76 03:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:KMCtoday's proposed expansion in the State legislature section.

From User_talk:Italiavivi:

I saw your edit on Obama reverting mine. Actually, the vast majority of my edit is just to add "citation needed" when things are not referenced and very little editing of the actual text. The Obama article is the type that should be very well referenced because of the nature of it. Whoever wrote the original police part is very biased because that's not what the reference said at all. He may have got the FOP endorsement but he got a very chilly reception at ANOTHER police association meeting (which is what the reference was about). There, the audience applauded only once, which shows how little support he has there. So here we have a sentence in the wikipedia article which is clearly POV hence my correction. KMCtoday 03:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You did quite a bit of editing to the actual text, including the addition of phrases such as "not pro-law enforcement" and "anti-public safety" under an edit summary of "small clarifications." [24] I believe your edit summary was quite disingenuous, reading now. Italiavivi 03:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Editing was initially just to add citations when big error was noted. However, you made corrections that were along the same line of thought in trying to more accurately have this article reflect what the citation was actually saying.KMCtoday 20:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's quite clearly POV to call his bills "detrimental to law enforcement" and I've rewritten the sentence to conform with the source. FCYTravis 20:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From User_talk:Italiavivi:

You (Italiavivi) mention concensus. There is agreement by FCYTravis. However, the point is NPOV, not necessarily concensus if consensus is for inaccurate reporting. Hitler had concensus. He won the vote fair and square. Even Bush won the election. I am for accountability, i.e. citing material and citing it accurately. This is for not only Obama, but also Romney. I am not picking on Obama specifically. I have raised citation issues for Bush, too.KMCtoday 01:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Police endorsement discussion

Hellfire made an edit in September. Essentially, it says that Obama got the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police and a citation is given. However, looking at that citation [25], the Chicago Tribune article actually said " 'I don't see him as pro-law enforcement," said Wheaton police Chief Mark Field. "I could spend hours with this man talking about his voting record. It is very anti-public safety." The crowd of 60 police officials applauded only once during Obama's 20-minute remarks. The whole article is about the chilly reception that Obama got.

This does not seem like very balanced reporting by Hellfire. It seems like there is a POV being pushed, i.e. trying to convince the reader that Obama has police support.

It's really very hard for me to see that this is other than biased editing by Hellfire. Furthermore, it wasn't just an honest mistake in editing because Hellfire recently reverted Italiavivi's correction accurately summarizing the citation back to the biased, one sided summary of the Chicago Tribune citation. I was just editing to make sure edits have citations when I found this irregularity. (For now, I'm just checking facts on this and other news articles, not really writing much). Let's not pick on Hellfire for now but the question remains, it's really hard to see why the long standing wording isn't pushing a POV by being biased editing.KMCtoday 20:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, KMC, the only "unbalanced" or "biased" thing I see here is an attempt to place offhand criticism from a single police chief on par with an official endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police. See Wikipedia:Undue weight. I would also ask that you cease the innuendo you are directing toward User:HailFire; despite my past disagreements with him on this article's content, he is a fine Wikipedia editor in general and has made a phenomenal positive contribution to this particular article. Italiavivi 21:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If Obama got the endorsement of the FOP, then prima facie he's got significant law enforcement support. The Chicago Tribune article essentially said there were some FOP opponents and some FOP supporters - I think "mixed reaction" is a far better term to use there than "subdued," which is rather ambiguous. Is a "subdued reaction" to be construed as opposition or merely indifference? So we can say the FOP supported him but the Illinois police chiefs were split. FCYTravis 20:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your (FCYTravis) rewrite does reflect what the Tribune article said. The problem I have with Hailfire's edit was he or she twisted what the Tribune said and wrote it here in wikipedia.KMCtoday 20:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am actually more in agreement with HailFire's (his username is not "Hellfire") philosophy that context is important, and that sources support relevant parts of the article's text, not the other way around. That one member of the Police Chiefs Association had bad things to say about Obama is nowhere near as notable as the Fraternal Order of Police endorsement, and drawing extra attention to this one police chief's disagreements (when there were other chiefs there to get Obama's autograph, per the source) is decidedly undue weight. I can compromise to my version (not your "version like mine") if consensus deems it absolutely necessary, but foremost support HailFire's version (the past consensus version, which I am restoring now). Italiavivi 21:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Italiavivi's revert to HailFire's text- and changed IACP back to HF's "police union" (=FOP) because that is what this citation is supporting. The cite says: "Last week, Obama won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police. Union officials cited Obama's longtime support of gun-control measures and his willingness to negotiate compromises on bills backed or opposed by the FOP." Citations are there to support the text. If there are other reliable source citations to present a different point of view, please submit them. Meanwhile, I find the header for this section, and the implication in KMCToday's comments, to be offensive. The twisting that I'm seeing is not coming from HailFire or from Italiavivi. Tvoz |talk 00:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What seems like the real story is that Obama did get the FOP endorsement but there's significant dislike of his policies. That's why Obama got the icy reception at his talk. To be applauded only once is worse than the chilly reception that Bush got at the NAACP where they applauded a few times. When the sentence was placed before, it essentially said "FOP supports Obama" and gave the citation. Anyone reading the citation can see that it's deceptive (whether intentional or not). A balanced viewpoint would be "some support, but some police oppose".

An example of being one sided like the above would be to say "Hillary supports the war" citing a newspaper article which might have said "Hillary supported the war by voting for such and such bill. Now she is for a planned, stage withdrawal." FCYTravis' revision just corrects it. It does not say Obama is wrong.KMCtoday 01:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's start fresh

  • I consider myself a fact checker, have no strong opinion for or against Obama, and have done fact checking on Republicans, too.
  • If anyone has been offended by the past discussion, I am sorry. Consider starting fresh like now.
  • The main issue that I see is that there is a lack of unbiased reporting in the police issues. An editor made it a point to include FOP endorsement and provided a reference. Upon reading the reference, the wikipedia article seems unbalanced. The wikipedia article should reflect a balance of police opinions about him, not just an endorsement. Therefore, it would be inaccurate and a POV to include only the FOP endorsement and not include an overall police opinion of him(although I am willing to accept on good faith that it was an unintentional POV for the sake of compromise).
  • Although I generally fact check and not edit, my editing about Obama has been continual revision not just reverting as some have done. Can you make a similar sign of good faith.KMCtoday 02:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is this "fresh start" the reason that, only 12 minutes ago, you posted a message to another editor's User_Talk page accusing editors here of 'censorship'? Between referring to my edits as "vandalism" and your accusing editors of "censorship" immediately before posting this "fresh start" offer, my assumption of good faith on your part has near run out, KMC. Italiavivi 02:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is an attempt to step back. The use of the term censorship was because of quick reverting though, in the interest of good faith, I'll decline from explaining further. Please note that messages to others may be done to get a better understanding of the problem without a big arguement here. Please respect privacy.KMCtoday 02:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, no - that's not going to wash. if you have something to say about "quick reverting", why don't you just come out and say it. Accusation by innuendo is really not ok. Tvoz |talk 03:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All of you need to deep breath here. This is a simple content dispute and the claims of censorship and complaints about the claim are not helping. It is generally more helpful to discuss the content in question and not assume the reasons behind an editor's actions.--Bobblehead 04:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, Bobblehead, that we should keep to the issue of content. But I think saying "The use of the term censorship was because of quick reverting though, in the interest of good faith, I'll decline from explaining further." is exactly the opposite of assuming good faith - as was the original heading to this section - and I don't think it should be condoned.Tvoz |talk 04:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've always been a big fan of not feeding trolls. If you ignore the pointy bits they get bored and go away. --Bobblehead 19:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little confused as to the nature of this latest round of edit warring. The primary purpose of the source used to support Obama's endorsement is to report the subdued response he got from Illinois Association of Chiefs of Police so while the wording proposed by FCYTravis and KMCtoday might be a little too much POV, not mentioning the subdued reaction at all fails to provide all points of view. Can't have one and not the other, so either remove his endorsement by the Fraternal Order of Police or give the subdued reaction from IACP equal time in a less POV manner.--Bobblehead 04:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree. My reading of the source article is that there was a subdued response at one meeting of a police chief group, but that there also was support at that meeting. That organization does not endorse candidates, so it seems to me the response by one group of people one day is not a notable point worth including. The FOP, on the other hand, formally endorsed him - that means that they as an organization took a public stand of support for someone who had some positions that they disagreed with. To me, that is notable. I have no problem at all including something about other police groups supporting or not supporting, if there are reliable sources for it, and if it was more than one police chief saying he had a problem and others being subdued. That's just not notable. I haven't researched this issue - for all I know there are articles out there that talk about police groups who formally supported his opponent or made a public statement =as a group= that they opposed him. And if those exist, maybe someone will bring them forward,, and maybe they belong here. But the point of the paragraph is that despite his having some positions that some people in law enforcement oppose, a police union - the FOP - came out in support of his candidacy. That is notable. Tvoz |talk 04:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The obvious answer to this problem is to find a new source, one addressing only his endorsement by the Fraternal Order of Police. Italiavivi 16:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Problem is moot at the moment, I think, because User:KMCtoday was indef blocked for being, unsurprisingly, yet another disruptive sock of dereks1x.Tvoz |talk 18:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

I don't feel Barak's picture is from a neutral point of view. This looks like an image from the campaign for his presidency. Before you judge compare it to the image for Tom Delay. Don't get me wrong, I think Delay's is fair, the images IMHO should be more raw photos, not photo ops or in a good light. --User:kibbled_bits 11:17 PM, 9 April 2007

It's a picture from his US Senate website, while Tom's is from the congressional pictorial directory. Perhaps the editors of Tom's website should use better pictures on that article. *shrug* It's a picture of Obama in front of the building where he works, not sure how it's a violation of NPOV. Now, a picture of Obama in front of the White House, that might be questionable. --Bobblehead 04:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Congressional Black Caucus

After a bit of spamming by an overeager congressional worker, I noticed that some members were not noted as such. Would it be alright to add to the "Senate career" section, after the ending sentence beginning "He is a member of the following Senate committees:" a note saying ", and also a member of the Congressional Black Caucus." ? Shenme 23:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would say absolutely yes, as long as it is confirmed that he is actually a member of the Caucus, not a supposition that because he is African American he would be. I don't mean to imply that you are making that supposition, Shenme, just think a citation would be a good thing for this.Tvoz |talk 23:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And - I looked at their official website and confirmed his membership, so added it to the article. I didn't anticipate any objections, but of course it can be discussed here if there are any. Thanks for bringing it up. Tvoz |talk 23:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Obama's Myspace

It seems to be here. Myspace advertised it in the "Cool New People" section. Any way or reason to fit it in his wiki article? --Ubiq 01:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That profile is not officially managed or sanctioned by the Obama campaign, it even carries a disclaimer right on the profile: "This profile was not created, and is not managed or endorsed by Senator Barack Obama. For more information, please contact the moderator." Bjewiki 01:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh. My bad. Silly me. --Ubiq 02:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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