Talk:Gilbert Perreault

Shouldn't there be some meantion of his weird, icey realationship with the Sabres since his retirement? --69.255.193.247 16:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

If any such mention is properly sourced so as to avoid overt POV, sure. RGTraynor 16:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, what a biased article.MikeFlynn52 06:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold

The information in the article seems to be ok. The issues are

• Style. I think that slang like "Team Canada" should definitely not be used. "French Connection" should be italics I think and should be either capped or uncapped in a consistent manner.
• POV/hyperbole. Words like superstar etc, definitely need to be culled. "spectacular offensive unit", "Cinderella run " "team loaded with future NHL talents "  Done--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 06:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
• Sourcing. The records, retirement and later parts of the article need sources at the end of the pargraph.
  • This is a problem because I am taking over an undersourced page. I have to either delete things or leave them unsourced.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 06:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weasel. "won the Calder Trophy as rookie of the year by a wide margin over Jude Drouin." - better to cite point gaps
  • Source uses this kind of verbiage so I just removed reference to the margin.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 06:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
• Prose - Many short sentences which do not seem to flow and relate to adjacent sentences. The first para of "amateur career" is a key example.

There are other sentencees which can be imporved along similar techniques and motifs. Regards, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with some of the points. For example, "Team Canada" is the name by which the squad is near-universally known, and it is no more slang than referring to "Rhode Island" or "Los Angeles" by those names, neither of which is the actual legal name of those entities.  RGTraynor  05:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, Indian cricket team is not called "Team India" in articles although it is quite ocmmon among the Indian press. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Good work. Well done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Copied from talk page ...

I appreciate your interest in Gilbert Perreault. I spent a lot of time last month returning to Buffalo to research his article as well as The French Connection (hockey) to get them both cited well enough to be WP:GAs. I am glad someone else cares about these articles. However, removing sources that support facts that are not commonly known to wikipedia readers is not appropriate in my mind. I have reverted many of your changes and this ist the net result of our joint efforts.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 14:03, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It may not be appropriate in your mind, but it's appropriate per policy. "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." (emphasis in the original, from WP:V). Items of readily provable fact, such as that Perreault is a Hall of Famer or the years during which he was named an All-Star, are already cited in the general references and the external link and do not require a cloud of jarring inline citations. Furthermore, the extensive references to the Fog Game are inappropriate, given that the game is not itself about Perreault and he had no particularly overwhelming impact in it. Finally, I worry that you might be crossing the WP:OWN line. I likewise appreciate the interest of other editors in this article, am glad other editors care about it and have spent time researching the edits I myself have made in it. I hope other editors are similarly invested in the articles about which they themselves care. Nonetheless, no single one of us has any more authority or influence over an article than another ... which is just as well, since my first edits to this article happened a year and a half before yours.  RGTraynor  03:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I find your style of I am so sure I am right I am going to revert in whole instead of going item by item and analyzing deeply each thing that I replaced. Your haphazard total revert even delete an incredibly useful template. Taking the I'm right and I am going to threaten you with an WP:OWN challenge is the completely wrong approach to take. Please reconsider each single item you removed especially valuable templates you carelessly removed. I took a lot of time with a thoughtful compromise edit and your approach is not thought of very highly. Since this was a newly minted WP:GA you should seriously reconsider your reversion. It is common to cite a source for unlikely to be challenged statistics because it is helpful to the reader. You should keep in mind that at one point the article said he was a six time All-star. Some sources have it wrong. Even though you should not challenge that he is a 9-time All-star you should not remove such a citation. Please respond at my talk page. --TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 01:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I was unable to complete my thoughts because the library closed at 9PM central (2AM UTC) last night. It also appears that I was in a huffy mood at the end of the day yesterday. Citations are not reserved for things likely to be challenged by experts. Basically, they are used to provide references for most interesting facts in an article. If I told you someone scored over 500 goals you might find that to be an incredible claim if you are not a sports fan. An article should be written with main page exposure in mind. Suppose this becomes a FA some day. If you look at most sports FACs they are chock full of citations for things that we all know are true. An article will have a citation for the fact that a team won the Stanley cup in a given year and one for the fact that it moved to another arena in a given year. This is the way proper citation works. The challenge rule you are cited does not mean that you only cite something if you think it might belong in Ripley's Believe it or Not. Please respond since I know you are online. I will begin reverting this after noon if there is no response.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 16:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I stand by my statements. Your argument relies on vague speculation such as whether someone might challenge that Perreault scored 500 goals or that he was a nine-time All-Star. Quite aside from the obvious fact that no one here has ever done either, such speculation doesn't override the policy governing the use of inline citations. Beyond that, of course I believe that I'm right -- it would be quite incorrect for me to make changes I felt were wrong -- and that believing you're crossing the line into WP:OWN is a very long way from "threatening" a "challenge" on those grounds, for which I'd be interested in you pointing out where I said anything of the sort.  RGTraynor  18:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I gotta agree with RG on this: his career stats are included in the article. They're backed up by a link to hockeydb and others stats websites could easily be added as well (I've always preferred hockeydb because it includes minor, junior and college stats). Data like that is mundane, qualitative and easily accessible. I'd be more worried about citing statements such as he also plays on occasion with the Buffalo Sabres Alumni Hockey Team for charity events. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it is true, yet I don't see anything that would prove it. ccwaters 18:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Unlike his stats, that's a fact that is not to be found in a hundred hockey books or fifty websites, each and every time invariably.  RGTraynor  19:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I am going to revert item by item with comment. Give me about a half hour. The point is that facts at WP are highly suspect by the general populous and thus notable fact citations are being reverted. I will attempt to do so minimally. Hopefully places that had redundant citations will have fewer, but facts that are worth boasting about must be cited, for the sake of the reader who should not just trust us.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 19:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S. in case you think I lie about the 6 time AS source, see http://www.sabresalumni.com/2001/perreault.php3 .--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 19:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I am going to need more than a half hour.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 20:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Take your time; any inline citations of non-controversial statistical fact will just be reverted right back. Uncontroversial items of readily-provable statistical fact don't uniquely become needful of inline citations just because they're "boast" worthy. I'll be happy to raise this to the Wikiproject for a consensus.  RGTraynor  20:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

RGTraynor & I often disagree but lately we seem to be agreeing more and more. I do believe he is right in this case. Having inline citations for the sake of having them is not productive and undesireable when they can easily be covered by the general references at the bottom of the page. Only if something is controversial or possibly unbelieveable/challengable should it have inline citation with a few exceptions for other reasons such as direct quotes. --Djsasso 21:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with TonyTheTiger simply because articles should be written assuming the reader knows nothing and therefore citations will help the reader know that what they are reading is true/verified. Facts with numbers that are not cited are possibly likely to be challenged but are also easy targets for sneaky vandalism. T Rex | talk 22:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

First off, inline citations don't prevent sneaky vandalism. Editors who pay attention prevent sneaky vandalism. I could not, off the top of my head, quote the precise number of goals and assists Perreault scored in his career (500-someodd and 800-someodd), and inline citations don't jog anyone's memory any further. Secondly, of course the statistical facts should have citations ... the general references and external links at the bottom of the page, which already exist.  RGTraynor  01:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It makes it easier to find out where exactly which facts come from where without the reader having to go through each source checking to see where the fact came from. Sneaky vandalism often does slip through articles even if the article does have many people watching it. T Rex | talk 01:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If his goal is to eventually be featured it is a very fine line between having enough and having to many. Alot of FAs get shot down because of over use of inline citations. As pointed out by RGTraynor only ones that can't be covered by general references at the bottom, ie challengable facts, need inline citations. --Djsasso 14:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, T Rex, if someone has to have an inline citation because he can't figure out how to look up a routine statistical fact from the general reference links, he shouldn't be editing an article for errors. That being said, this is slightly moot. The policy on the use of inline citations is unambiguous, and this article's violated that.  RGTraynor  15:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about editors, I was talking about the average reader who comes to Wikipedia who wants to find information and inline citations help this reader find information quickly. T Rex | talk 23:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Err, no. Inline citations do not help the reader find information quickly. Putting the information in the article in the first place helps the reader find information quickly.  RGTraynor  12:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion offer

I would be happy to try and help resolve the outstanding issue if someone wants to summarize the dispute. Please note: I am not looking for reports of editor behavior - i simply want to know what the dispute was/is over. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  04:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jmfangio. Is the dispute over whether each sentence in a GA article should be footnoted? Please just summarize the dispute. Thanks. -- Jreferee T/C 06:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Not quite. My position is that Tony has flooded the article with unnecessary inline citations; to quote myself from above, "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." (emphasis in the original, from WP:V). Items of readily provable, uncontroversial, statistical fact, such as that Perreault is a Hall of Famer or the years during which he was named an All-Star, are already cited in the general references and the external link and do not require a cloud of jarring inline citations. That being said, the other comments in from WP:HOCKEY regulars support that viewpoint.  RGTraynor  16:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The style use of inline citations is an issue often dealt with by those at Featured articles. If you can't find your answer at Wikipedia:Featured article criteria, perhaps ask at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. -- Jreferee T/C 17:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Given feedback we got at Wikipedia:Peer_review/Gilbert_Perreault, which says that the citations are helpful to international wikipedians (which was my point in the debate), edits like this seem destructive given the debate we are having about whether citation should be removed. I had reduced the citation level to what I thought was the bare minimum for a this GA. The citations that were taken out reduce this article below the WP:GA level, IMO. This article would not pass at WP:GAR given this edit. It should be reverted, IMO. The edit was contrary to the feedback we have received and my experience as the lead author of 2 WP:FAs, 3 WP:FLs, 29 WP:GAs and 3 WP:GACs.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 22:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If I were to summarize the debate, I would say the debate is over whether what I see as the minimal citation level or what User:RGTraynor sees as the minimal citation level is more appropriate. His most recent edit is pretty much the crux of the issue.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 22:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

For my part, I wouldn't be comfortable implying that the single reviewer who addressed the subject at Wikipedia:Peer_review/Gilbert_Perreault represented any degree of consensus. Beyond that, gosh, I've several thousand edits myself, I've been an active member of the WP:HOCKEY Wikiproject for several years and the author of the project's player notability criteria, and my first edits on this article predate yours by a year and a half. Now might we stick to the merits of the argument, rather than claim "Mine is bigger than yours" as any sort of justification? If there is a Wikipedia policy or guideline granting more of a say to those brandishing massive edit counts, I'm ignorant of it.  RGTraynor  08:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

If don't get any resolution here, which I hope will come from another 3rd party (User:Jreferee), we can either go to WP:GAR or WP:DR from here. But the merits in my opinion are adequately summarized as an argument over your edit from yesterday and I am willing to argue the merits in either forum if necessary. At GAR, we run the risk of losing WP:GA status on the article, but unlike either of the talk pages or WP:PR we are guaranteed to get much feedback. I hope a second outside opinion will help us come to some resolution however.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 15:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Well ... as to that, if insufficient feedback here is generated, either forum will do. If GA status could be lost over a dispute as to how many inline citations this article should have, then its status was a lot shakier than that.  RGTraynor  18:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)