Talk:Homeopathy

Edit warring

Given the editing behavior of some editors here, which prefer edit warring and reverts rather than finding common ground, I propose that all involved editors agree voluntarily to 1RR, that is one revert per day per editor. Please sign your name below if you agree. If there is no such agreement and editwarring continues, the article may go back to protected state, or editors that exhibit disruptive behavior may lose temporarily their editing privileges. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

I agree to abide by 1RR in this article

• --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 16:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• PouponOnToast (talk) 16:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Have been.
• Art Carlson (talk) 20:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• Friarslantern (talk) 20:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• Tim Vickers (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC) With the understanding that it takes two to tango.
• User:area69 With the understanding that it takes two to tango- correct.! If there are unjustified reverts I will not comply though. --Area69 (talk) 22:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• Arion 3x3 (talk) 04:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Violated [1] [2]. PouponOnToast (talk) 13:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
• With many reservations (e.g. the response by User:area69), but I will try it. ScienceApologist (talk) 11:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Too many POV-pushing edits are being made which violate this and nothing has been done by the administrator organizing it. Therefore I withdrawl my pledge. ScienceApologist (talk) 11:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
• Anthon01 (talk) 18:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
• Sarcasticidealist (talk) 12:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Instead of just reverting something, I assume that we can delete a specific addition we disagree with, editing the same time a different paragraph.That does not count. Correct?--Area69 (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

If I understand what you're proposing (combining a revert with an edit), it would qualify as gaming the system. Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This is the correct term - I m not proposing it though. Do you want me to give you examples ( from editors who signed the 1RR? --Area69 (talk) 22:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you are correct, Jossi is the one to go to. Anthon01 (talk) 22:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Take a look and you will decide. --Area69 (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

MAybe I m wrong though. So if gaming the system will not be allowed. I agree.

LOL. So two of you agree, as long as you don't find a dancing partner! Anthon01 (talk) 23:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The personal views of the editors are only important in as much as they can be backed up by reliable sources. Or not. Stephen B Streater (talk) 12:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Invitation to join the 1RR group

I cordially invite Orangemarlin, Aburesz, and Anthon01 to join other editors in their 1RR pledge. It will make for an excellent show of good faith. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Anthon01, a final invitation to join the 1RR pledge. Without such commitment by involved editors there is no chance to make this work. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

So far I see this being applied unevenly, as Fyslee(2) OrangeMarlin(3), TableManners(3) have reverted 2-3 times in a short time span and none of them are getting warning from you on their talk pages. I am hoping to see even-handedness. I also am not sure what 1RR really means since different admins apply this rule differently. Anthon01 (talk) 18:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed the 1RR sections here and hadn't been aware of them at all. For the record, my two reverts were to two totally different matters. 1RR is a nice way of dealing with edit wars, but it isn't binding, and Jossi would have no basis (regarding my two separate reverts) in policy or actual fact to warn me of anything. I'll just stick to wikipolicies and stay away from 3RR situations, which is my usual practice. I usually pull out of such situations quickly if I realize where they are headed, which means 1RR or 2RR. If a consensus doesn't back up my revert(s), then why should I insist? That never works. If they were proper, then other editors will back them up and preserve them. Discussion is much better than edit warring. -- Fyslee / talk 17:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

A step further

I will go even further. I have not reverted here for a long long time. I will let it just go in the mud, since that is what the powers that be favor I suspect. So lets let it collapse and turn into promotional tract for a pseudoscience. I apologize if this offends anyone in any way or is perceived as uncivil.--Filll (talk) 17:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I certainly don't want that to happen and would fight against that. Anthon01 (talk) 17:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

By their fruits...--Filll (talk) 17:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Likewise. See below "rewriting the lead".[3] My goal is NPOV. Anthon01 (talk) 18:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As I have said repeatedly and will continue to say, I think all those who believe in science, allopathy, the scientific method, double blind tests etc should recuse themselves from this article and let everyone else edit it unfettered. Then after 6 months, the results should be reviewed by outside bodies and internal bodies etc to see if it is NPOV and if it meets the needs of the readers and Wikipedia and so on. Why not? If you support me on this, I will push it extremely hard and promote it as hard as I can. I think we should do this. Let's try it as a test case. --Filll (talk) 18:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, by promoting this kind of baloney we can help improve the human gene pool. Think about that. We should also give our support to bretharianism.200.104.203.106 (talk) 01:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Straw poll: Should the pseudoscience infobox remain

So much fuss is being made over the inclusion of the pseudoscience infobox in article. Rather than keep debating this, I suggest subjecting this to a straight-up vote (even though voting is evil) so that everyone involved can make clear to everyone else exactly where they stand. Silly rabbit (talk) 15:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Weak delete. I think the infobox adds little in terms of content, is not widely used elsewhere, and finally may not have sufficient support in the article for its inclusion. Silly rabbit (talk) 15:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

If it succeeds here it will be everywhere that the creators of the box consider Psci. Anthon01 (talk) 15:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete It is a violation of NOPV policy. --Area69 (talk) 15:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Not used widely elsewhere, and the content is better stated in the article lead. LinaMishima (talk) 15:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Abstain I believe it has been deemed uncivil and offensive for people to vote anything besides "Delete" and I am undecided so therefore I cannot express an opinion. I apologize if the word "abstain" is offensive or uncivil in any way and I apologize to anyone I might have offended by this post.--Filll (talk) 15:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
• Delete For all the reasons I already stated. Arion 3x3 (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete It is against policy in the same way that the category is, and in addition is not particularly helpful. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete As per Art. It looks like a scarlett letter. Anthon01 (talk) 15:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - it serves a valuable purpose. MilesAgain (talk) 15:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Weak delete It's a hot word, and as such may unintentionally obscure the overwhelming evidence that homeopathy is, without doubt, pseudoscience. Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete Let the article speak for itself to characterize and describe homoepathy without the hot button label. When I left wiki months ago this is what editors on this article were arguing about. Now I'm back and this is still the big issue. Let's get past it. Abridged ^talk 15:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep follows Wikipedia:Summary style. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I am concerned that this vote as much of the discussion on this page is overly-representative of the opinions of true-believers in homeopathy. I think that these voices necessarily need marginalization in order for us to arrive at NPOV. By my count, discounting these votes of the true believers we have two "weak deletes", two "deletes", and two "keeps" as of the timestamp. There is also a considerable chilling effect seen that needs to be taken into account here per User:Filll's response. Hardly a resounding judgment against. People arguing we should remove the infobox to avoid controversy are not practicing good editorial technique. Just because something is controversial doesn't mean it should be excised from the encyclopedia. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep: I am happy with the category pseudoscience as I think it is unobtrusive, accurate, and allows people to find all such articles via the category. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment: The straw poll above is about whether the infobox should be in the article. The general consensus, although somewhat weak, was to remove it. Inclusion in the category is a different issue altogether. Silly rabbit (talk) 19:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Readers can follow the wikilinks to explore the subject. There is no need to assert a viewpoint by virtue of a template. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

  What "viewpoint"? NPOV? ScienceApologist (talk) 19:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. We need to hammer out a policy over use of series boxes with contentious names. Thanks to the ArbCom, have a policy (WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience) on when to use category:pseudoscience. We are hashing out how to handle lists of pseudosciences now. Since homeopathy is not as obviously a pseudoscience, per sci consensus, as other topics like intelligent design, it may be poor NPOV to plaster the article with the highly-visible PSEUDOSCIENCE SERIES BOX (not shouting, just simulating graphic effect there). cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 05:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. Actually I tend to share Jim's POV on this one. It is so much like the category tag that I think they should basically be treated in the same manner. They should be reserved only for those cases where the category tag is obvious to all and is preserved by a consensus of editors, and backed up by the ArbCom decision, IOW inclusion in the first two (out of four) groups. Using that line of reasoning, it is just as appropriate on this article, as it is on astrology, which the ArbCom's used as an example AND the category tag should also be here. -- Fyslee / talk 05:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
• Delete. I don't base this whether the article is categorized as pseudoscience or not. But the pseudoscience/disputed science infobox is confusing. I think it's not good to have a box with "Core tenets" of couple of lines for complicated and disputed topics, I read what was there for homeopathy and I think it wasn't clear, and it was unsourced too. I hope this box wouldn't be used anywhere, I looked around and the first article I hope to remove it from is Reptilian humanoid, even if that box has the title "pseudoscience" I don't hope it's stated as part of biology in the next line. That's original research and just makes the box to contradict with itself. It's better to state any disputed things in the article text referenced to reliable sources. I think this kind of infobox doesn't help the quality of the articles. Best regards Rhanyeia♥♫ 18:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Fringe science (or arbitrary break)

I just took the damn thing off. It's ugly anyway and frankly not worth the trouble. Please note my edit here, particularly regarding the category... — Scientizzle 15:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ha, you are a genius. Category:Fringe science could work nicely, I think. LinaMishima (talk) 16:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There is evidence that it's fringe? MilesAgain (talk) 16:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

"fringe medicine"; the New York Times wrote that homeopathy falls "outside mainstream healing"; "Homeopathy is a practice popular in Europe but is considered "fringe" medicine in the United States."; Time called it fringe science"; Peter morrell (talk · contribs) has even written about "links between homeopaths and other ‘fringe therapies’" (my highlighting) having used cited sources that apparently discuss the topic as fringe.

These were evident after a two-minute search and there's many more. I'm not going to dedicate too much more time to this cacophony of opinion-slinging, just wanted to offer a possible, reasonable, sourceable middle ground. Homeopathy sure the hell ain't mainstream science, and "pseudoscience" only leads to caterwauling of incredible magnitude, so "fringe" seems a possibility. — Scientizzle 16:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Good work! It's accurate and extensively verified while avoiding the p-word. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with the p-word? Are there any verifiable sources which dispute that homeopathy is pseudoscience? ScienceApologist (talk) 18:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with "pseudoscience". Above, I was in favor of the category (though I find the box to be a formatting blight). What I've shown here, however, is that there's a pretty solid case for Category:Fringe science as a minimal level of Wiki-categorization while the arguments over Category:the p-word continues. — Scientizzle 19:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

See below for why homeopathy is not fringe science. It isn't science at all. It is pseudoscience. No reliable source says that homeopathy is fringe science. Plenty of reliable sources say that homeopathy is pseudoscience. Plain wording is a must so as not to confuse the reader. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. — Scientizzle 19:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not concur that it is "genius" to take off one insulting derogatory category and replace it with another. "Category:Fringe science" is not acceptable and a violation of NPOV. Arion 3x3 (talk) 16:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is appropriate but it is an improvement. Anthon01 (talk) 16:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I take the above comments as prima facie evidence that everyone who agrees in the scientific method, scientific publications, mainstream science, allopathic medicine, etc should leave this page and let the truly "unbiased" editors make it a proper "NPOV" article according to their own views since those are clearly of more import than those of anyone else and they WP:OWN the article in spite of not having contributed hardly a thing to its creation. I apologize if this post offends or is perceived as uncivil in any way and I apologize to anyone who might be inadvertantly offended by it.--Filll (talk) 17:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Quoting Peter Morrell as a justification for applying the perjorative term "fringe" is not accurate. He placed the term in quotes to indicate that there are individuals who label homeopathy with that insult, not to indicate that it is a legitimate term to use. Arion 3x3 (talk) 17:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Your interpretation of Peter's intent is, bluntly, WP:OR. It's not even necessary, considering there's plenty of other sources available that consider homeopathy a fringe science at best. — Scientizzle 19:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I can't agree to the use of the "fringe science" label. As a scientist, I am deeply offended that you bring any part of science down to a level that might include Homeopathy. I can abide by "pseudoscience," as that makes it clear that it isn't science, but calling Homeopathy "fringe science" is just insulting to science. (You get the point of how useless these types of comments are yet?) --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

While I'm at it, the "Alternative Medicine" category is equally insulting to medicine. Pretty much every article that sports that category should have it stripped. Medicine has suffered enough, thank you very much. I will not let you lower it to the level that includes Homeopathy. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Re Arion -- Reality is the ultimate insult: much better to bask in the glow of the fantasies engendered by the essence of magic mushrooms, and secret twigs and potions of poison ivy. Ah, the pretty colours.

Infophile raises a very good point. •Jim62sch• 18:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Insulting homeopathy or my intelligence with juvenile humor is not appropriate if we are to work together as serious editors towards a consensus. Arion 3x3 (talk) 18:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any insult to homeopathy. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

So, your response to me pointing out how pointless complaints about civility are is to accuse me of being uncivil? Excuse me while I go and introduce my forehead to my desk three or four times. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Please don't: there's sufficient cerebral necropathy extant here already. •Jim62sch• 19:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I was not referring to you, Infophile. I was referring to the "bask in the glow of the fantasies . . . " comment by Jim62sch. Arion 3x3 (talk) 19:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I am opposed to Fringe science as homeopathy is not science. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The ArbCom reference to psychoanalysis

I have been trying to stay out of the discussion on the pseudoscience category because the shouting hurts my ears. Still, I would like to repeat an argument I made a couple archives ago, because I think it still cuts to the point:

Maybe the most directly applicable indication of policy is the demarcation in the ArbCom ruling between Astrology ("may be categorized as pseudoscience") and Psychoanalysis ("generally should not be so characterized"). I think homeopathy has more in common with psychoanalysis than with astrology, but that can be discussed here. It is interesting to note that psychoanalysis is called pseudoscience by a prominent critic (Karl Popper) and the article cites a statement (Cioffi, 1998) that "an increasing number of scientists regard psychoanalysis as a pseudoscience". The citations we have found calling homeopathy pseudoscience are neither from very notable scientists nor do they make a generalized statement about how widespread that belief is. If we take the ArbCom ruling as our touchstone, it is hard to see why homeopathy should be classified as pseudoscience while psychoanalysis is not. --Art Carlson (talk) 12:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Since I posted that, there have been a lot of citations of scientists that call homeopathy pseudoscience. Good. That justifies a statement to the effect that "many scientists consider homeopathy to be pseudoscience". No one, however, has found a RS making a statement about scientists in general. The closest that has been offered is a report by the NSF, which says without contradicting them, that csicop thinks homeopathy is pseudoscience. NSF does take a clear stand here, and they do not make any statement about how many scientists do or don't hold the same view. Jim Butler has also reminded us of the content guideline which states "Claims of consensus must be sourced. The claim that all or most scientists, scholars, or ministers hold a certain view requires a reliable source. Without it, opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources." Unless RS can be found that provide evidence that homeopathy is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community" (generally, not just by a portion), which is stronger than the equivalent evidence for psychoanalysis, a dispassionate application of Wikipedia guidelines requires that the pseudoscience category be removed.

On a similar topic, I can't avoid the impression that the pseudoscience "infobox" was created to provide an even more prominent label than that given by the category. In addition to having the same problems as the category, it doesn't provide any significant information or navigational aid. It should go.

Disclaimer: My personal opinion is that homeopathy is a pseudoscience.

--Art Carlson (talk) 15:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I should also mention the guideline on controversial categories (WP:Category#Some general guidelines, No. 7): "Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Categories that are not self-evident, or are shown through reliable sources to be controversial, should not be included on the article; a list might be a better option." --Art Carlson (talk) 15:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

"The citations we have found calling homeopathy pseudoscience are neither from very notable scientists..."

Per WP:V, the notability of a scientist only comes into play for self-published sources, and not peer-reviewed medical journals, which are called, "in general, the most reliable sources," and, "usually the most reliable sources in areas ... such as ... medicine"

I'm just trying to figure out what the difference is between psychoanalysis and homeopathy. Are you arguing that there is something about the sources for homeopathy as pseudoscience, compared to the sources for psychoanalysis as pseudoscience, such that the one should be so classified but the other (according to ArbCom) not? --Art Carlson (talk) 21:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

"nor do they make a generalized statement about how widespread that belief is."

The Almeida (2003) source explicitly says, "recent research has thoroughly disconfirmed the main homeopathic hypotheses ... the weight of the modern evidence clearly disconfirms the hypothesis...." That is not an opinion of a single M.D., it is a statement about the totality of the modern research on the topic. MilesAgain (talk) 16:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is the opinion of a single researcher (in a rather out-of-the-way journal) about the totality of modern research. He does not say that most everyone agrees with him (although they obviously should). --Art Carlson (talk) 21:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well said. Now if everyone would just chill out and take some time to absorbed what Art has said may be we could get on with this. The box is like a scarlett letter. How is that encyclopedic? Anthon01 (talk) 15:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that the psuedoscience infobox was originally labelled "Disputed science", however was recently changed in title without clear consensus to be more provocative. LinaMishima (talk) 15:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Wonderful research and observation. This is helpful. Anthon01 (talk) 16:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Really? I was just about to propose using the Disputed science box as being more neutral. I would have no objection if the name were changed. Well, no fundamental objection. I still don't find it particularly useful. I also wanted to point out that there is already a List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts which works as well as the category as a navigational aid, but allows a more differentiated characterization, e.g. "Topics which notable skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific" as well as "Pseudoscientific concepts per scientific consensus". (Begging the question for now of whether homeopathy is in the right list.) --Art Carlson (talk) 16:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I contend it's not but have avoided the unreasoned debate that often goes on there, which begs the question ... ;-) Anthon01 (talk) 16:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

"Pseudoscience" comes on a bit strong, but "disputed science" is far too weak. Homeopathy isn't string theory. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Art Carlson, thanks for your comments. I agree with your assessment and proposals. I also believe that Homeopathy is no science, btw. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As I have suggested above, anything that hints or suggests that homeopathy is not supported by science or is in any way questionable or disputed or controversial will be objected to. I guarantee it. In light of this, I suggest that the only option is for all those who believe in double blind studies and the scientific method and publication in mainstream peer-reviewed journals to leave the article to the truly "unbiased" among us who can remove all this "POV" science and allopathic blather from the article. I apologize if this comment is deemed uncivil or offensive in any way to anyone.--Filll (talk) 17:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ooooh, you mean we can write this for the National Enquirer set? •Jim62sch• 18:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Psychoanalysis is not an apt comparison because many analysts do not claim scientific imprimatur on their practices. Homeopaths, however, on the whole do. That's what makes this subject classic pseudoscience. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, ArbCom did not give us enough examples to do fine tuning. I don't follow your argument, because it seems to me (OR), both homeopaths and psychoanalysts would simply say, what I practice works, BUT that is part of the discussion I think we can/must avoid. The issue is not whether you or I think homeopathy is pseudoscience, and not whether homeopathy really is pseudoscience. The issue is whether there are reliable sources that claim that it is generally seen that way, and whether those sources are stronger than the ones available for psychoanalysis. I think the answer is clearly "no", but I am eager to hear your opinion. (P.S. Thanks for engaging me here. It seems everyone else charged on past.) --Art Carlson (talk) 21:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Art, since you asked me to reply here.

1. Homeopathy is pseudoscience. It claims to be a science. It's practitioners claim scientific methodology and education. Yet, it makes falsifiable claims but when falsified the "true believers" don't acknowledge them. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, WANTS to be a duck, but in the end, still a goose in drag.
2. Specifically about ArtCom. ArbCom also says about Categories, that they are a navigation aid, not content, and not a factual claim. The pseudoscience claim is made, over and over again, from reliable sources. There is no reason to not have it as a category. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Actually several policies and guidelines do consider categories as content, and explicitly mention attendant NPOV issues. See WP:CG (cited by Art above), WP:NPOVT#Categorization, and pages linked from them. And of course WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience, the most obviously applicable one, where (as Art also notes above) the specific demarcation is given for categorizing.

As for the full-stop opinion that "homeopathy is pseudoscience", see WP:Wikipedia:Common knowledge. cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 07:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, SchmuckyTheCat, for responding, although actually I was hoping you would read my arguments above and respond to them. I share your opinion and that of the cited scientists that homeopathy is pseudoscience, but ArbCom says we need reliable sources saying that it is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community". Damn. --Art Carlson (talk) 09:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Complete agreement with Art's points here. I couldn't have put it better. Using ArbCom's examples, a spectrum exists between astrology and psychoanalysis, and many of the more prominent alt-med topics lie on it. If we use the demarcation "generally considered pseudo by the sci community" and require a source, we can move on from arguments over categorizing, and do more interesting stuff: I think criticisms from V RS's that homeopathy is pseudosci should absolutely go in the article, and better still, their reasoning (and countering views, if any) clearly explained. [[Category:pseudoscience]] may not be the best way to do that, but I agree entirely that we can do it with a list.

(Disclosure: I'm agnostic about homeopathy. First determine efficacy. If that exists, then science will have quite an interesting task in establishing mechanism. But efficacy seems to lean negative. That said, if ritual is what works, why the hell not add ritual to antibiotics 'n stuff? Give the monkey mind (i.e., every specimen of humanity, bless us all) what it craves.) --Jim Butler^(talk) 07:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Art as well (and consequently Jim). We must heed WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience. Despite our personal feelings about homeopathy (I am in the same boat as Jim as well), homeopathy seems to fall in the spectrum in the "questionable" science realm and not in the "obvious" pseudoscience section. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 07:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Improving the lead

Thanks Dicklyon for your comments about the lead section of the article. I had suggested back in December 2007 that the mainstream medical criticisms be detailed in their own section (with only a brief mention in the lead). I also propose that a section about the research that supports homeopathy be detailed in its own section. The lead needs to be shorter, provide a brief summary of the article, and not give undue weight to the critical viewpoints. Arion 3x3 (talk) 16:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as many other things that are suggested on this talk page, this violates WP policies and WP:MOS. I do not mean to offend anyone in any way by this post and I apologize to anyone who might perceive this post as uncivil or offensive.--Filll (talk) 16:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You beat me to the punch. Are there any editors willing to discuss this and reach consensus before editing the page? THe current section reads

The ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible[5] and are "diametrically opposed" to modern pharmaceutical knowledge.[6][7] Claims for its efficacy beyond placebo are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical studies[8][9][10][11] and it is considered to be pseudoscientific.[12][13][14][15] A lack of convincing scientific evidence supporting its efficacy, and its contradiction of basic scientific principles have caused homeopathy to be regarded, in the words of a recent medical review, as "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst".

My first proposal is

No plausible mode of operation has been identified for homeopathy and its underlying principles are "diametrically opposed" to modern pharmaceutical knowledge. Claims for its efficacy beyond placebo are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical studies and some consider it to be "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst".

What say you? Anthon01 (talk) 16:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

While thanking you for your attempt to reach consensus, I must respectfully say "no." You're deleting important qualifiers. Furthermore the intent of the "no plausible mode of operation..." bit is clear, and is unacceptable. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Why? I asked for a discussion. Anthon01 (talk) 17:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The lead size is fine. It's currently about 350 words. George W. Bush is ~384; Science is ~385; Gandhi get ~361; ~364 for Windows 2000; Today's featured article is at ~399.

Word choice can certainly be improved, but just aiming to trim the scientific (i.e., default NPOV) POV from the article seems a bit...disingenuous. — Scientizzle 17:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. My intention is to improve the lead as per WP:LEAD. How about picking the first qualifier that you would like to replace, lets discuss it. Anthon01 (talk) 17:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Anthon01, I think we're actually in okay agreement--word choice is perfectly appropriate to improve--I actively welcome it. Perhaps I misinterpreted Aburesz's opening of this thread as more of a 'trim & partition the criticism as much as possible' sort of stance? That I'm not okay with. You seem to be on a perfectly welcome track. I have to sign off for a while, but I'll try to help in couple of hours... — Scientizzle 17:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe Anthon01's proposal would be more NPOV by stating:

No plausible mode of operation has yet been identified for homeopathy and mainstream medicine considers its underlying principles to be "diametrically opposed" to modern pharmaceutical knowledge. Claims for its efficacy beyond placebo are currently unsupported by the collective weight of clinical studies. Many consider it to be "placebo therapy at best".

I respectfully remind everyone that this article is about homeopathy, pure and simple, not about "homeopathy and how it is seen within mainstream medicine". Arion 3x3 (talk) 17:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point. But would agree that my version is a huge improvement as per WP:LEAD and MoS recommendations? Anthon01 (talk) 17:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Claims for its efficacy beyond placebo are currently unsupported by the collective weight of clinical studies is not a accurate statement. Some metanalyses have shown positive but incoclusive and unconvicing results, some not. Why dont you use the words which the researchers use. It will solve the problem. --Area69 (talk) 03:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

What would you propose? Anthon01 (talk) 04:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This section discusses leads on WP.[4] It states It is even more important here than for the rest of the article that the text be accessible, because the lead should make the reader want to read the whole article. (See news style and summary style.) Under [| new style], it says News writers try to avoid using the same word more than once in a paragraph (sometimes called an "echo" or "word mirror") We have 5 echoes in the paragraph. Anthon01 (talk) 17:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's find every paragraph that uses "homeopathy" more than once and eliminate the excess usage of that word. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no need for ridicule or sarcasm. We may need to do that to some extent. I notice area69 doing that by replacing homeopathy with 'it.' Your suggestion isn't a response. If you are not willing to discuss this that is fine. I ask for editors who were willing to discuss the paragraph. Anthon01 (talk) 17:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. Your proposal was not to use the same word more than once in a paragraph. I pointed out a word that is continually used more than once in a paragraph. I'm a bit taken aback by adopting your suggestion, only to be attacked for doing so. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

My sincere apologies. I thought you were being sarcastic. I think its a good rule to follow. In some cases it may be unavoidable. Anthon01 (talk) 17:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

That formulation is unacceptable, since saying that homeopathy has "no plausible mode of operation" is incorrect. The scientific consensus is that homeopathy operates through the placebo effect. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Please provide the reference that says this. Anthon01 (talk) 03:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Be careful with reducing the length of the scientific criticism section of the lead without also reducing the overall length of the lead. Too-vigorous a pruning may reduce the apparent weight of the section within the lead, implying a reduced weight to the criticism. The current ratio (3 sentences to 14 total, by my count, and 1 paragraph out of four) seems about right. The rest of the lead could do with a little trimming also, so this isn't a big problem. LinaMishima (talk) 04:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Good point. That said, sometimes one sentence could balance 10 others. Anthon01 (talk) 05:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality disputed

I believe that the peer-reviewed reliable sources I have provided above unequivocally state that homeopathy is the kind of quackery which costs the lives of untold multitudes who fail to seek -- or are dissuaded from[5][6] -- legitimate medical care. The entire article does a terrible job of presenting that fact.

Most of the others here seem to be squabbling over whether it's merely pseudoscience or fringe science. Accordingly, I have placed a {{POV}} neutrality dispute tag on this article. MilesAgain (talk) 17:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Your PubMed quote doesn't say what you are saying. "which costs the lives of untold multitudes who fail to see?" Prove it. Anthon01 (talk) 17:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There is direct evidence that homeopaths tell people to avoid vaccinations. Tell me that doesn't cost lives. MilesAgain (talk) 18:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but prove that it cost lives. Otherwise its OR. Anthon01 (talk) 18:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Pfft! All I have to say is WP:SPADE, or wait, maybe I mean WP:DUCK. MilesAgain (talk) 18:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

MilesAgain ignores the "untold multitudes" that have been helped by homeopathy world-wide. Arion 3x3 (talk) 18:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Whether his argument is good or not, he does right to ignore them --88.172.132.94 (talk) 18:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Of whom there is nothing but sparse anecdotal evidence and homeopaths saying that controlled trials are for some reason not a legitimate means of testing efficacy. MilesAgain (talk) 18:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

What untold multitudes? How were they helped? What evidence do you have other than anonymous anecdotes? Natalie (talk) 18:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I self-reverted. I'm on board with Miles now! Yeah, what untold multitudes Anthon01? Oh you mean the untold multitudes who are screwed out of their money to buy a couple of liters of distilled water? And that money would have only been spent on sex, drugs and rock and roll, therefore saving them from the misery of their existence. Sarcasm intended. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As I have stated a few times, I think that everyone who believes in double blind studies, the scientific method, science and allopathic medicine should recuse themselves from this article and let all others forge a "real NPOV" version. Then after 6 months, lets have outside bodies and internal groups review the product, and judge if it really meets NPOV and Wikipedia and reader requirements.--Filll (talk) 18:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's leave it to the untold multitudes who believe in alien abduction, horroscopes, the Loch Ness monster, magic crystals, mood rings, Yeti and Scientology. •Jim62sch• 19:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Comparing the science of homeopathy to obvious nonsense does not help us work cooperatively to improve this article. Arion 3x3 (talk) 19:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Odd, I've always found congruency to be of value. •Jim62sch• 19:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

POV/Disputed/whatever Templates

Please don't add these to the article. The dispute on the article is perpetual. The templates serve no purpose. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

agreed. we should at least weight until the curent bitchfest is over before ywe start adding more tags. right now any of us could put every single tag on wikipedia on this page and be juustified in doing so. Smith Jones (talk) 02:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You are saying to not indicate that there is a dispute because the dispute is long-running? Preposterous! That the dispute is long-running makes it more important to inform readers, not less. Perhaps you should share your opinion with the people at Allegations of state terrorism committed by the United States for a second opinion. MilesAgain (talk) 02:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The purpose is to inform the reader that there may be problems with the POV of the article. As MilesAgain points out, the duration of the dispute is a curious argument against the tag. The only time that I feel justified in removing NPOV tags is when those inserting them do not specify concretely the problems they see, and possibly when they don't constructively work on solving those problems. I don't know how many real or perceived problems the article currently has, but the pseudoscience category certainly qualifies for a start. --Art Carlson (talk) 09:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Category - according to Wiki policy

Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Categories that are not self-evident, or are shown through reliable sources to be controversial, should not be included on the article; a list might be a better option.

Arion 3x3 (talk) 19:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

According to this criterion, this article should carry the Pseudoscience tag, for three reasons: 1) the underlying theory is ac hoc and undemonstrated; 2) the underlying theory and practice are both unsupported, and indeed contradicted, by science, although practioners claim the method is scientific; and 3) the great majority of scientific sources have attested to the pseudoscientific character of homeopathy. Thank you for using WP policy to clarify this contentious issue, Arion. Also: as an interested party, shouldn't you recuse yourself from editing this article? Naturezak (talk) 17:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there any connection between your three arguments and the policy cited? --Art Carlson (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It is self-evident that homeopathy is pseudoscience; according to this policy, the Pseudoscience tag is appropriate.Naturezak (talk) 20:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

If it were self-evident, there wouldn't be so much discussion. I think "self-evident" is meant to be more like Mars is self-evidently a "Planet of the Solar System". --Art Carlson (talk) 09:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be just as surprised to find people dipusing the planetary status of Mars, as I *am* to find people objecting to the labeling of homeopathy as pseudoscience. Homeopaths claim that their method achieves unverified results according to physically incredible means. The retreat from initesimals to "water memory" is ad hoc, but advocates continue to claim this is just science we don't know yet. Nothing I've read -- and I've read volumes on the subject -- and nothing I've seen on this discussion page contradicts this basic characterization. If the term "pseudoscience" is to be reserved for methodlogies which claim to be scientific but which are not, homeopathy must be one of those.Naturezak (talk) 14:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and be surprized, but don't go into denial. The term "pseudoscience" is not "to be reserved for methodlogies which claim to be scientific but which are not". It is reserved for topics that, as established by reliable sources, "are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community". --Art Carlson (talk) 15:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"Pseudoscience" category again added - against consensus

I think, based on the length of discussion that this has generated and the number of reverts that have occured with the Pseudoscience categorization, that it is controversial. From Wikipedia:Categorization#Some_general_guidelines guideline number 8, it should not be put into the category.

Please can summarise why homeopathy might not be a pseudoscience? Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Read all the discussion on this yesterday and today. Arion 3x3 (talk) 19:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please read it. I have, but I must be missing something. •Jim62sch• 19:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

This article was categorized as pseudoscience for some time. Since homeopathy is self-evidently pseudoscience and has been shown through reliable sources to be pseudoscience, there is no issue. Removing the category is unacceptable POV-pushing. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the real issue should be whether the description of Category:Pseudoscience is appropriate. The category as defined is intended to include "fields of endeavor or bodies of knowledge that critics have characterized as being pseudoscientific or having pseudoscientific aspects". We can avoid arguing about whether homeopathy is pseudoscience, and argue instead whether this is a good way to define such a category. But as long as that's what it says, I don't see why we wouldn't go ahead and put this article in that category. Dicklyon (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe I made this point above as well. But my observation fell on deaf ears. Indeed, there seems to be little doubt that homeopathy falls squarely within the bounds set by the category description. Silly rabbit (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no consensus to REMOVE it. So it stays. Besides, consensus doesn't trump NPOV. Sorry to make such an obvious point. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 19:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I wish it was that easy. Obviously there is no consensus, as the categorization is disputed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Would people be happy with a better description of pseudoscience which clearly included homeopathy? Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Animal Farm. Anthon01 (talk) 01:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, it would certainly move the argument to another page. •Jim62sch• 19:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Characterizing something as pseudoscience is asserting the POV that the something is pseudoscience. But the issue is that this is disputed, and NPOV forces us not to assert viewpoints as facts, which we will be doing if we categorize it as such. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Some people dispute the Earth is a planet. We still categorize it as such. We are not in the business of accommodating the disputes with those who have weird beliefs otherwise we would never be able to start writing an encyclopedia. Homeopathy is pseudoscience. End of discussion. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Your point is disingenuous as you know you won't find a RS to say that. There is no point to your point. Anthon01 (talk) 01:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Weird beliefs are part of "human knowlegde" and I am sure readers what to know all. As you have no authority to call to end any discussion, I am considering placing that category for deletion. See for example the deleted category Category:Dictators. Here is the CFD: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_22#Category:Dictators, for the rationale I intend to use. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

History repeating? Jefffire (talk) 19:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, I hate to say this, but you are not only threatening to repeat history (this has been tried before, and a repetition would be quite disruptive and bloody), but you are revealing that you are in over your head on a subject (one of several) that you don't understand well enough to be making such dramatic and drastic actions.

BUT, and I really mean this, please continue to function as a referee here. (Referee's don't play.) That's what you do pretty well, and what we really need. Leave the major editing and wave-making to those who know more about these subjects, or who for various reasons burn for them. That way you keep your hands clean and are appreciated by editors of all persuasions. You don't want to alienate too many editors and place yourself in a compromised situation as a biased and partial admin who gets dragged into RfC/U's, RfArbs, etc.. I have suggested this before, and I'll repeat it here. We desperately need a category of admins whose major job is to function as referees to keep things on track, deal with disruption, incivility, personal attacks, give advice, and to break deadlocks, etc. We need that and you can continue and develop that function, setting a good example for other admins to follow if they choose to serve in such a capacity. -- Fyslee / talk 03:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Et tu, Brute? •Jim62sch• 19:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Anything can be disputed [and frequently is on WP]. Are there any reliable sources (outside homeopathy) which say homeopathy is not a pseudoscience? This would demonstrate that this obvious fact is in fact disputed. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not see how this helps, Stephen. Read the rationale in Category:Pseudoscience. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, pseudoscience is defined, it is not a POV. There is a checklist of 5 or 6 items, all of which Homeopathy fits. Terms like Junk Science, are much more pejorative, and have no official definition. There are NO reliable, peer-reviewed sources that state that Homeopathy is a medical science that actually cures anything. I suppose drinking that much water will keep away kidney stones, but that's the water, not Homeopathy. I understand your POV Jossi, but NPOV is not anti-SPOV in the case of scientific and medical articles. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 19:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Pseudoscience is generally described as something that desires the appearance and respect of science, yet fails to follow proper scientific method and the appropriate forms of the scientific method for its field. For something to not be a psuedoscience, it either would have to show that it does not attempt to seem scientific, or show that it, on the whole, follows correct scientific procedures. Homeopathy clearly wants to seem scientific, what with journals and procedures and practices and qualifications of its own, so that attempt to rule out the definition fails. Regarding the following of the proper scientific method, this is were we run into trouble. Homeopaths of course will claim that they do! As they wish to be a science, they must claim this! However, many of the common procedures and testing systems used have traditionally failed to be appropriately double-blind with large participation and a sizeable control group. As such, traditionally it clearly has failed to follow proper scientific procedure for the medical field. Some homeopaths are trying to improve this, as are people in the medical field, however the widespread inability of the profession to control their members from saying dangerous things (such as recommending homeopathy alone as malaria protection, or advocating homeopathy over antiretrovirals in the treatment of aids) and the continued widespread use of research not following appropriate methods makes it clear that proper scientific method is not widely used yet. If you disagree with this, either state how the proper medical research process is being used widely within homeopathy and scientific methodology is being encouraged, or point out an error in this logic and how something, without following this process, can counter claims of pseudoscience. LinaMishima (talk) 20:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

But it's laughable to think that any amount of science can show that 0 molecules of a substance can have any clinical effect. Unless it's magic. In that case, it's not falsifiable, and therefore is outside of the scope of science. Most homeopathy promoters will not agree to falsifiability. Medical research will be better spent finding real cures for breast cancer, diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimer's disease, and whatever else. There is a limited amount of research dollars and it has to be spent wisely. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

We should only argue ethics here to the extend that it displays a lack of scientific process, and implausibility is regularly challenged by supporters by bringing up various scientific paradigm shifts (and they would be right to say that this can be researched - science investigates and disproves, not suppresses). As such, I am suggesting we stick to what can sensibly argued here. LinaMishima (talk) 20:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Stephen and Orange, labeling homeopathy a "pseudoscience" is disputed by some of the editors of this article, and by scientific researchers conducting and designing proper homeopathic double-blind studies. The reason for labeling an article as "pseudoscience" is to condemn it as "junk science". If that is not the intent - that is the effect. Arion 3x3 (talk) 20:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Great argument, since I know it's a junk science. No way does 0 molecules of anything have any effect except for the solvent. The 2 liters of water are a great thirst quencher, but they do nothing else. The research being done is a huge waste of money of the US and other governments. But the US government wants to push Creationism, so since Homeopathy relies on the exact same anti-science attitude, so be it. It is junk science. But to be nice, we'll call it pseudoscience. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, some researchers are attempting to apply proper scientific methodology to investigate the claims, and this is a wonderful thing (if, however, the larger proper studies are tending towards placebo). The problem here is not those excellent researchers, but the body of the profession and the current basis for its work. LinaMishima (talk) 20:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not know of anyone that claims that "0 molecules of anything have any effect except for the solvent" - do you? Homeopathy certainly does not claim that. Maybe that is why OrangeMarlin and some of the others who have expressed opinions about homeopathy have been so dismissive of the science of homeopathy. It appears that the misunderstandings about what homeopathy claims are part of the reasons for problems reaching a harmonious consensus. Arion 3x3 (talk) 20:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

From a purely based-on-what-we-know scientific level, that is the logical conclusion of the process used to make homeopathic remedies. I agree that homeopaths certainly do not claim however that said situation is what they create, however they claim effectiveness, rather potential effectiveness. As no method of action has yet been found and proper medical studies have been highly lacking, potential effectiveness is all that can be claimed from a scientific point of view, however. LinaMishima (talk) 20:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I've seen evidence of non-homeopaths testing homeopathic claims (I linked to one on scarlet fever on another page, for example). And I don't necessarily dispute that some homeopaths can test claims scientifically, just as Creationists can test Newtonian Dynamics scientifically. But from what I understand, Homeopathy is based on a set of assumptions which were invented without evidence, and if these are false, homeopathy cannot reject them without not being homeopathy any more. This is very different from science, where any theories, even such established ones such as Newtonian Dynamics, can be replaced. Science starts with reality and works out. Homeopathy doesn't work like this. So even if individuals who call themselves homeopaths test the claims scientifically, homeopathy is still not a scientific discipline. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

homoeopathy migt be a junk science, but that hardly means taht it is also a psuedoscience. psuedoscience has far more criteria than just being incorrect or not proven scientificaly; if that were all that it entailed then we would have to slap the psuedoscience label on all the Greek myths and anything that has ever not been provenscientifically. if homoeopathy's accuracy is disputed (which i concede that it is), then that should be raised in the aritlce, but calling it psuedoscience has a higher burder of proof for us. Smith Jones (talk) 21:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. We should not conclude that it's pseudoscience. On the other hand, as I pointed out above, being in the category pseudoscience is not saying that the topic is pseudoscience. Read the category; if you don't like it, work on that. But for what it is, I see no problem with homeopathy being in the category. Dicklyon (talk) 21:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Psuedoscience, as I have stated previously, has two defining criteria. Firstly, it must attempt to appear scientific, claim evidence to how it works and demand to be respected as a science. Secondly, for something to be a psuedoscience, it must then however generally refuse to follow the scientific method, dismiss criticism based upon this, and not follow proper scientific principles to any study it performs. This clear and commonly used definition prevents the label being slapped on myths, but clearly entitles homoeopathy (with appropriate allowances for the growing attempts to apply proper science to the study of the matter). As stated previously, if you wish to contend this point, you either have to dispute the definition of pseudoscience, dispute that homoeopathy attempts to seem scientific, or dispute that homoeopathy in general fails to follow proper scientific method and or implement proper medical studies. Please see my previous comment for more details on this. LinaMishima (talk) 21:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any sources indicating ths homeopathy pretends to be scientific? I realize based on my research that homoeopathy does not fallow many of the main guidelines of "mainstream" science / allopathic medicine and i recongize that those are the criterions used here (although I dispute that this is in fact necessary for homeopathy to be effective, but that's a personal oponion and beside the point here). I am not sure since I have never heard a homeopathic professor or researcher claim that homeopathy is inline with traditional scientific consensus currently, so I cannot currently say whether or not homoeopathy follows mainstream scientific precepts.

and please watch your typing you made several spelling errors (the word pseudoscience has 2 s's in it, not just 1) that I corrected for you. Smith Jones (talk) 21:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

People in glass houses... Jefffire (talk) 21:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact that they have a journal "Homeopathy", which is regularly cited by homeopaths as evidence of their 'science' status? That homeopathic provings are looked to as evidence of their work? That in response to allegations of no known method, they appropriate other research to try and find some basis for a claim? Pretending to be scientific absolutely does not mean having to claim to be in line with traditional science - indeed to do so and have evidence of doing so makes it not a pretend claim. You too made some typos and grammatical errors that I corrected, but I advise that everyone to leave commenting on spelling out of this, as it really doesn't look too professional to be bringing it up as a debating point. LinaMishima (talk) 21:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

if those informations that you lsited satifsfies you then go ahead and add the infobox, and if the psuedoscience category hasnt been reverted yet then go ahead and add it. someone might revert it, but it wont be me because there are worse and worser problems relating to this article that need to be addressed and I just wish that this petty issue would just die already. Smith Jones (talk) 22:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

One of the best examples of pseudoscientific attitudes are seen on this talk page, where some homeopathy advocates argue that non-individualised placebo-controlled trials can't be used to test homeopathy, but they are still willing to scour PubMed to find any such trials that give ambiguous or supportive results. On one hand rejecting the scientific method, on the other trying to use scientific results to advance their agenda. This is pseudoscience - non-science that tries to appear scientific. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:52, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

damn it, i already concereded that point. let it go, ffs!

BTW are you sure that requiring individualization in a theurapetic practice = rejection of the scientific method ?--Area69 (talk) 02:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Homeopaths say that "homeopathy demands individualization of the cases in order to show its best therapeutic effect- which means non individualized trials will show results but not the best. Since almost all the meta analyses which are currently being used in the article DONT call Homeopathy pseudoscience but they find the results promising and positive -even inconclusive, the category is inappropriate. NOPV violation. At least according to the Wiki Policy. It is really simple.--Area69 (talk) 02:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not that simple. Have you really stopped to think of why they write conclusions using such inconclusive wording, often in contradiction to what the research actually revealed? (This applies to much of the research in alternative medicine, not just homeopathy, and to some degree mainstream research.) That is what's simple - the ones who perform that research are believers in homeopathy and they aren't about to cut off the branch upon which they are sitting. They want to keep their options open and the door open for further funding. Also keep in mind that there are other studies that don't make equivocal conclusions, but make definitely negative conclusions. The reason why (within mainstream research) there are probably fewer inconclusive conclusions following definitely negative results, is that such researchers aren't on the fringes and would suffer greatly from any criticisms of inconsistency. The fringe researchers have little to lose since they are sometimes already on the sidelines, if not already ostracized. Another point is that scientific research articles don't usually include personal POV, such as using labels like "pseudoscience", "quackery", etc.. The researchers may well believe it, but they stick to writing the hard, cold facts of what they found. In that sense they are only telling part of the story with their research. And yes, that is my personal POV after following these subjects for years and reading the research. End of rant....;-) -- Fyslee / talk 03:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Please offer a citation to support your statement. Anthon01 (talk) 03:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I ended my comments in a manner that should tell you that such a citation does not exist. IOW you are asking the impossible. It is a summary of my collective experience from years of studying these subjects and following these controversies. -- Fyslee / talk 03:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You are correct, I missed that. Anthon01 (talk) 03:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Individualised treatment does not preclude proper double blind randomised large scale trials with sizeable control groups. The fact that few trials have been run this way is not relevant to this discussion. [7] has a good discussion of the problems here, as do many other published articles by Ben Goldcare, such as [8]. If you look at the evidence in the meta-analyses, it is clear that as the sample size increases, the results tend towards placebo (I am trying to find the reference for this now). Also, it must be noted that pseudoscience is a descriptive term for a field, not the effectiveness of a treatment approach. One determines a judgement of pseudoscience by a study of the manner in which a field acts, not by results of experiments, although the results of experiments, if done properly and required for all claims, can be used as evidence against the title. Again, see my logic reasoning. You have merely stated that "some scientific approaches have been made", not actually countered any of my arguments. Please attempt to do this. LinaMishima (talk) 02:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

As promised, please take a look at [9] (assuming you have access). This is a discussion on the methods used in meta-analyses published within the BMJ, and is now heavily cited. As trial quality increases, and trial size increases, the results tend towards placebo. LinaMishima (talk) 03:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the relevance of this is. I have been critical of applying to great an importance to meta-anlyses in the past on this page, the reason being that large clinical trials sometimes negate the conclusions found in meta-analyses. The same is true for drug trials. Anthon01 (talk) 03:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Have you read the article I linked to? If you could not get access, please let me know, I can at the least give you proper details to then look it up elsewhere. The article is a study into the conduct of meta-analyses. As an example, they analysed a homeopathy related meta-analysis, and found that it displayed that the larger, higher quality, studies were tending towards placebo. In effect, the article talks about exactly what you say and agrees with you! ;) That meta-analyses are often overly biased by smaller and less rigorous studies. LinaMishima (talk) 03:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Area69, just droop it, okay. theres no point in arguing, they clearly have more poeple and more time than we do, and there are much much bigger issues on this page than a measly little tag. the compromise that i recomemnd is to leave the tag in and keep the actual box out until a better consensus is reached. Smith Jones (talk) 02:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this compromise, however the categorisation is unlikely to change in consensus, it must be noted. LinaMishima (talk) 02:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

never say never. even though it sems dark right now, that only means that once we do resolve this ssue and get back to actually beeing productive we will put all the enrgy and resources we put into this argument into achieving consensus, provoding content, and following the spit of wikipedia policies. Smith Jones (talk) 03:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The spirit of NPOV is clear, especially if you read into the history of the policy - it is regarding presenting the evidence as it exists, in proportion to the weight of the evidence according to the framework which something presents itself within. As such, until the general nature of the homeopathic profession changes be based upon proper scientific methodology or it discards any attempt at appearing scientific, the framework will clearly be science and the evidence (due to the lack of changes to the profession's general nature) will point towards pseudoscience being a significant (but not all-encompassing) aspect to this subject. LinaMishima (talk) 03:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You're making it sound like a Tort or Contracts case in law school. It's verifiable, reliable and peer-reviewed references that gets the most weight. Even if there are 1 million homeopaths publishing in the Journal of Homeopathy and Creationism, it still not verifiable, not reliable and it isn't peer reviewed, and as such deserves no weight. This article is merely a presentation of the history of Homeopathy, which can be documented, along with a scientific and medical critique, which has a vast wealth of references. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 05:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

There's a good reason for a similarity to a legal argument - the best arguments build up from abstract principles and cases first, only once reaching some statement of guidance from these then applying this to the specifics. It makes for a much more watertight argument, and it allows for change in the specifics. In this case, homeopathy could reform, become peer-reviewed, follow proper practices, etc, and as supporters of the scientific method this has to be accepted as a possibility. My use of 'framework' was perhaps pretentious, but is accurate here, since we don't detail the false scientific claims of religions in comparatively significant detail to the rest of their article's content (which focuses more on history and spirituality, rather than matters of science). Anyhow, we are agreeing in general, it seems. LinaMishima (talk) 05:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Categorization of this article as Pseudoscience

The categorization of this article as such, needs to take into account the decisions made in the related ArbCom case, namely

1. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience/Proposed_decision#Obvious_pseudoscience;

   Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more.

2. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience/Proposed_decision#Questionable_science

   Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.

3. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience/Proposed_decision#Generally_considered_pseudoscience

   Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Numbers two and three are switched. Compare the links with the quotes. -- Fyslee / talk 07:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I struck the incorrect text. Fixed below. (Not intending to mess with talk page etiquette; just heading off unnecessary confusion. Kind regards all around.) --Jim Butler^(talk) 07:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience:

(begin quote) The Wikipedia Arbitration Committee has described pseudoscience as follows (at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience):

• Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification.

• Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.

The ArbCom ruled that the following should not be regarded as examples of pseudoscience:

• Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.

• Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

(end quote) fixed. --Jim Butler^(talk) 07:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for setting this up. I was unaware of the structure of the decision, but it clearly falls in the second category. A very strong supermajority would classify homeopathy this way. Cool Hand Luke 05:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not that sure... Hope editors can arrive to a consensus on where this article fits. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

If sci consensus that homeopathy is pseudoscience exists, we should be able to source it (cf. Art's and my comments above). If not, no big deal, we just cite what we do have, which is more than adequately informative. --Jim Butler^(talk) 07:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Questionable science is the appropriate category, until someone finds a source that confirms consensus. Anthon01 (talk) 15:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

• To categorize an article as pseudoscience makes it appear that Wikipedia is endorsing a subjective view that the subject of the article is pseudoscience, even when that categorization is disputed by the editors.
• There has been significant research in recent years confirming that homeopathic preparations, even at the 200C level, have significant biological effects on test animals using objective measurement parameters. No "placebo" explanations can deny the results of this research. That is another very important reason homeopathy cannot be labeled "pseudoscience". Arion 3x3 (talk) 05:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem I see is that I have not seen that many sources labeling Homeopathy as pseudoscience, even when it may be obvious that the scientific method has yet to prove that it is science. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Scientists don't normally have to argue that it's pseudoscience. It's rather more a background assumption (it is "generally considered pseudoscience"). See for example, Diluting the scientific method Cool Hand Luke 06:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

How they assume in the background that it's pseudoscience stating in their conclusions that the results are positive and the studies promising and some metaanelyses state also that they have an effect over placebo? ) Look above for ref. .--Area69 (talk) 06:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The arbcom definition is merely that questionable science is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community." That's absolutely true here. Even the editors of Homeopathy acknowledge that most scientists think the placebo effect is responsible. Cool Hand Luke 06:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(Note to Cool Hand Luke: the term they used for that is "Generally considered pseudoscience". There was a mistake above. Just a semantic issue.) That said: Regarding claims of consensus, WP:PROVEIT does apply, as does WP:RS#Claims_of_consensus. The NSF source so far comes closest, AFAIK. --Jim Butler^(talk) 07:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Not true. Please read the sources.They are above.They say positive but inconclusive and/ or unconvinsing - promising studies. Where do you see any background assumption that it is pseudoscience? At least almsot all the studies which are being used in the article. --Area69 (talk) 07:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Here - I m just telling you what the studies write. Nothing more.[10]--Area69 (talk) 07:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

What would be a better gauge of the general attitudes of scientists? Your selective quotations—which mostly reject the hypothesis anyway—or the National Science Foundation? Or perhaps the editor of Homeopathy admitting that most scientists believe homeopathy is placebo effect? You can argue that scientists are being unduly dismissive, that there's an allopath conspiracy, but it's undeniable that homeopathy is most widely considered non-science. Cool Hand Luke 07:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

There are not selective quotations. These are the whole paragraphs of their conclusions. And my question was "where do you see any background assumption that it is pseudoscience?" The topic is controversial - many scientists would believe that others obvioulsy no. Therefore it is a violation of NPOV to categorize as such according to the wiki rules.--Area69 (talk) 07:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

"homeopathic preparations ... have significant biological effects on test animals using objective measurement parameters. No "placebo" explanations can deny the results of this research." Well, a cursory search reveals that the placebo effect is well documented within animals [11], [12]. so for this claim to hold, the study would need to take this into account. Could you provide me with a reference so that I could look this up? LinaMishima (talk) 12:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Try Google.com. It has a lot of informaiton. Smith Jones (talk) 12:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

When a claim is made, it is polite to ask for a reference, rather than to assume a source. For instance, I found [13], within which only one homeopathy related trial may have had a placebo group. Without a placebo group, the results of the study cannot be appropriately compared and conclusions about effectiveness cannot be drawn. You will also note that other studies within this collection of a conventional veterinary medicine nature did tend to feature placebo groups. Arion, however, could well have been referring to other studies without similar methodological problems. Hence one asks for a reference before commenting on their claim. LinaMishima (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

i am sure that he has s tudy. you should look harder, and if tiat doesnt workyou can wait for him to get back. meanwhile, he listed several other homeopathic studies earlier in this discussion (its possibly in the latest archives now) that you might want to check into just inc ase. Smith Jones (talk) 13:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I am certain he has a reference also, and I am happy to wait for them to comment. But to suggest that I should spend hours reading studies that may or may not be the ones they are referring to helps no-one. In science, one never expects this, for it is obviously a fool's endeavour (as again, we do not know what it is we are supposed to be reading). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, not those who wish to comment on the claims to go searching for the evidence. Your approach here makes no sense to me, since I never expressed any rush. LinaMishima (talk) 13:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

i never siad that you had to read the stodies. It was only a suggestion because many of them are very interesting and i only sugested it because you seemed interestingded in homeoopathic science. Smith Jones (talk) 13:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting the abject faith you have in the existence of a source for a claim that would lend support to homeopathy. All I'm saying. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 15:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

what do you mean? both of us are waiting for User:Abusrezs to bring the source that he promised. That is no way implies 'faith' ince there is a possibility (or was) that he might not show up. besides, tehre is no need for antagonism since we have already rescinded our disagreement with the tag 'psuedoscience' and that issue is all but resolved. Smith Jones (talk) 15:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting AN thread

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Offsite canvassing?. Please don't comment here. Centralize there to avoid WP:MULTI. Cool Hand Luke 07:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

New Arbcom case (maybe)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Homeopathy The idea of it is not to censor anyone, but to try and get some guidelines that will end some of the perennial wars once and for all. Adam Cuerden ^talk 11:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Occam's razor

LinaMishima, did you ever hear of Occam's razor? Mice are used in research all the time, yet almost no one tries to say there are "placebo effects" at play in the mice. (Your link referred to mice being given saline solution, which is chemically active. In the homeopathic research that I was referring to, WATER was the control.) You start to deviate from scientific objectivity if you start trying to devise convoluted explanations to deny the scientific evidence of the biological effects elicited by 200C homeopathic preparations. At potentized (serial dilutions and succussions) levels above 12C, according the Avogadro constant there are no physical molecules remaining, but according to homeopathic theory, characteristics of the original substance are there.

Critics of homeopathy like to dismiss it by saying "It's only water!" They have argued that chemical analysis of a water sample and a "homeopathic remedy" in water elicits identical chemical analysis results. I would respectfully point out that if you did a chemical analysis of 2 CDs, they would test identical. Yet one may be a blank CD, and another may have encoded upon it an entire library of books. Arion 3x3 (talk) 13:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

CDs are solid and water is liquid. Water molecules move around very quickly, losing all "memory" in a matter of femtoseconds, whereas atoms in a solid stay more or less where they are, which allows one to shape the solid in a way that contains information. In fact, a remedy made out of crushed Enya CDs would be more plausible to have a therapeutic effect than a homeopathic remedy! --Itub (talk) 13:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

A remedy by personally crushing Enya CDs would be even more plausible... (That's not a WP:NPA violation, is it? Enya isn't an editor here?) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

She was just the first artist that popped into my mind, as her work is often prescribed for curing stress. :-) I am not aware of Enya being an editor here. --Itub (talk) 14:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Occam's razor would suggest the placebo effect as a simpler mechanism for the supposed homeopathic effect. The placebo effect in animals is well documented. Your CD analogy is flawed, as I can tell the difference by looking at the reflection of light from the underside, or by using a magnifying glass, or by putting it into a CD drive, or thousands of other ways. LinaMishma has behaved amicably and with grace, and is correct in her statements about concentrations at dilutions. See user:DanaUllman's talk page for an explanation of dilution and for another debunking of the CD analogy. Poor analogies do not increase understanding (edit conflict) --RDOlivaw (talk) 13:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, this is some major scientific illiteracy we're combatting here. Physical properties and chemical properties are usually subjects that are taught to 12-year-old children in most science curricula. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Although, I agree that the analogy is flawed, the point he was trying to make was that information is left after dilution that we are currently not able to discern.Anthon01 (talk) 14:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I am going to have to disagree with you. You cannot possibly keep a straight face while telling me that water stores substances in its "MEMORY"! if you look at the facts its simple. homeopathy is water. you can say there used to be something else. but now its just water. placebo effect at best and quackery at its worst.

oh and by the way you are abusing occams razor and turning it into quackery if your going to use it. use it right. User:213.203.150.101

I'll respond when I know who you are. Otherwise, just read what I wrote and not what you read into it. Anthon01 (talk) 14:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the injection of water is generally not recommended, since this effects the electrolyte balance (the study was injecting saline, and hence I assume you are being sensible and comparing like with like). As such, saline is the most appropriate placebo. Many studies with mice also involve a placebo group, and if not there is a reasonable (if not ideal) alternative often used. Rather than having a specific placebo group, one uses existing studies which document a placebo method appropriate for a similar experiment. This gives you s virtual placebo group. I agree that such methods are inaccurate, and indeed they can only generally be used with mice thanks to the typically very large sample sizes involved.

Secondly, raising the concept Occam's razor is perhaps not the best of ideas. It should be noted that the meaning of 'simplest' is dependant entirely upon the depth of research and the evidence to hand. Classical physics is certainly far simpler than quantum or relativistic physics, but for large or small scale situations it simply no longer holds true. And if you must raise it, well... larger and more methodological studies point towards placebo and no known method of action exists (and we certainly wouldn't want to have to make things more complex by inventing one, would we?). I am sure you get my point. Occam's razor is not really something you want used here.

Although convoluted explanations without basis in evidence do indeed deviate from the scientific method, criticism and the observation of flaws in studies does not. Indeed, criticism and observation of potential flaws in investigations, and the acceptance of these and working towards mitigating them in future studies is core to the scientific method. The three most popular BMJ articles of all time are all criticisms [14]. Nothing is sacred in the eyes of science.

I have seen the comparison to CDs before, and you are correct that a purely "what is in here?" analysis would result in exactly what you stated. CDs store information in their physical structure, and some involved in studying homeopathy argue similarly with respect to the solvent in use in a preparation. This is not the correct place to be arguing theory, and indeed this topic of conversation appears to be a misdirection from the topics at hand (which have nothing to do with the mechanisms at work). However, I shall indulge you. The first argument against the physical structure approach is that of scale. CDs encode data in structures with dimensions measurable in a few hundreds of nanometres, if not a few micrometres. Hydrogen bonds in water, however, occur on a scale of an Ångström, roughly 0.1 nanometres. It is conceivable that large hydrogen bonded structures may occur, perhaps on the scale of 20 nanometres (average H-bond length of 2Å, hence allows for a structure with dimensions of around a hundred molecules). Any larger than this is fairly implausible given the inherent heat of the molecules themselves and the low level of donation in pure water under standard temperature and pressure, but it could occur. However it is then very unlikely that such a structure could reach the highly macroscopic size required to evenly distribute across a vessel (dimensions in the order of millimetres). Secondly, we shall talk about impact energy. In a CD, the force needed to disrupt the information is quite substantial, it is not easy to break a CD by heating or by impact (I shall not look up the figures for this, but please apply common sense here). Within a water structure hypothesised by homeopaths, the energy needed to disrupt this structure is much less. The mass of any given molecule is smaller, and hydrogen bonds, whilst strong, are not so strong as to exceed the level of force needed to break all the physical and structural linkages required in a CD. I will freely admit, I am having trouble researching this point, as it has been nearly six years since I studied chemistry in any depth. However, there is certainly cause to suspect that succussion will disrupt any highly macroscopic structures, as would the addition of the next stage of solvent. Finally, I would like to talk about the other approach taken by some homoeopathic supporters, that of 'quantum' information. If it is to be argued that the process of dilution and succussion imparts the information signature upon the collective separate macroscopic groupings of molecules, then it must also be accepted that similar process to this dilution and shaking in the past of said macroscopic groupings would have also imparted an information signature. Since there are competing sources of information and only so much information storage in the system, the successive stages of dilution will reduce the significance of the new information in comparison to that of a similar amplitude within the new solvent. Again, this area is not my expertise, however a basic understanding of information theory, quantum mechanics and fourier analsysis will point towards such results. Arguments involving entanglement have also been made, but the energies and comparative wavelengths involved render this a little absurd.

As you will no doubt point out, the above analysis is not fully researched, nor is it complete. I will be the first to state that it clearly does not rule out any possible method of action for homeopathy. However, what it does not do is show that any such method is simple or within our current understanding. The matter of the scales involved alone is a significant obstacle to be overcome. LinaMishima (talk) 14:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Bravo! As someone active in QM, I can back up the statements regarding Milgrom's poor analogies to quantum entanglement --RDOlivaw (talk) 14:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

i think you mean Milgram. Smith Jones (talk) 14:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

No I mean Lionel Milgrom. However, Milgram's experiments are interesting. --RDOlivaw (talk) 14:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

me too. Milgram is a lot very intesresting especially his role in the studies of human psychiatry in which he got a whole bunch of people to electrocute a sick kid to death (simulated). could this be considered af orm of homoeopathy??? Smith Jones (talk) 14:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't a "sick kid", and to answer your question: no. Milgram's experiments on obedience are very good psychology, as are the related studies into conformity. However, I'm talking about the crackpot chemist Lionel Milgrom, who is someone else. --RDOlivaw (talk) 14:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Although they do relate to the power of the placebo effect, it must be noted. Is it just me who was quite, quite amused by this odd confusion? :P LinaMishima (talk) 14:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Milgram would be :) --RDOlivaw (talk) 14:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

yes, i agree. Milgrom is a joke even in homeopathic scircles since he seems to spends most of his time emroasted in a pointles character attacks on his critics (as you can see by the bad science.net link above.) Oh, and iknow it was really a recording but it was a recording of a sick kid and the people who were tricked into participating were thinking that they were electorcuting a sick guy. Smith Jones (talk) 15:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The subject was never made out to be sick until the higher shock levels, were a 'heart condition' would be mentioned. The relevance is not in terms of any illness, but because this was intended to cause empathy, sympathy and heightened sense of awareness in the 'teacher' of the subject's imminent danger. Some variations of the experiment also used actors rather than tape recordings. You can read the article here on the Milgram experiment for more information. LinaMishima (talk) 16:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Protected (again)

I've had to protect this article again, I was initially going to block the offenders, but quite frankly, there's far too many of them and this has been going for a couple of days, making blocks for earlier editing problems punitive, whilst it being unfair to the people that get blocked simply because they were the last to edit. The protection lasts a week, after which time I expect discussion rather than revert warring. I'll be watching the article closely, and hopefully next time I can catch it a little sooner - but please note, any future conduct that even remotely looks like disruption on the page will result in blocks. Ryan Postlethwaite 13:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

How would you suggest reaching consensus where the parties are clearly unable or unwilling to discuss in good faith? PouponOnToast (talk) 14:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd strongly suggest you at least attempt mediation with the mediation committee, or several parties are going to have their wiki-time greatly reduced. Either that, or request a third opinion, or RfC and all agree to abise by the result. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Ryan, it would help if you placed warnings at the talkpages of the parties you are obliquely referring to here with the appropriate diffs. Most people probably think that it's the "other guy" that's causing the disruption and not them. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I'm planning on doing that tonight, I just haven't got the time to go through the mess at the minute. I would however like to make it clear that this applies to anyone editing the page, if there's anything which I, or another uninvolved admin see as disruptive, it will lead to a block. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that administators who "don't have the time" should be weighing in on these situations. That's when we get bad decisions that result from poor research. Please find another administrator who does have the time. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, would you like me to stop writing my MSc dissertation to solve this petty dispute? Hmmmm, it aint gonna happen I'm affraid. I said I'll look into it later today when I have my social time. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

No, if you are writing your dissertation then some other admin can look at the issue. There are over 1000 of them, right? This article was recently protected for over a month. If editors can't put in as collaborative then block them. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

(further) it doesn't take any time at all to see User:Leave Power Behind was trolling. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I didn't protect the page because I didn't have chance to look at it then, I protected it because there were simply too many users that would need to be blocked, and because of the time frame, many blocks would we punative. I'm merely going to investigate who's talk pages I need to go to and knock it home to them exactly what's going to happen the next time they disrupt. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You believe that such will result in more than an exortation not to edit war and be disruptive, and a statement that NPOV means that all notable views must be expressed? Specifically, do you believe a semi-perminent (more than a month or two) decision can be reached regarding the pseudosciene category and box via those procedures? If you believe such, I am happy to go through said procedures, but let me state upfront two things:

1. I know that such procedures will fail to reach a semi-perminent decision.
2. I know that such procedures are a waste of time and
3. I challenge you to state that you believe differently.

In fact, I would like to make a friendly wager with you - I will jump through whatever hoops you want, and will do so with complete and total openness, honesty and attempt with great dilligence to complete with good faith all of the requisite steps, but when such jumping fails to reach any sort of perminant solution, you will resign your admin bit, never to be replaced. Deal? PouponOnToast (talk) 14:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Without consensus, it should remain off the page. Anthon01 (talk) 14:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd love to see disruptive editors remain off the page, but unfortunately there is no way to enforce the consensus with adminstrators who do not act. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

considering that they're is still a figorous debate going on, i dont think that their is anythingt hat the admins can do to "enforce" consensus that has not currently been reached. I too would rather have disruptive editors remain off the page, but so far i have not seen any disruptive editors -- only editors that have a difference of opinion wregarding which issues should be brought up in the articl eand which ones should not. Smith Jones (talk) 14:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Although the subject needs to be discussed in detail within the article, I am getting tempted to allow "Alternative medicine" to fulfil the role, since almost all alternative medicines are similarly heavily disputed and many can be rightfully called pseudoscience yet are not tagged as such. Reflexology is tagged, but Acupuncture is not (despite various studies into complex placebos). LinaMishima (talk) 14:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the strategy of repeately fighting without stop has led many scientifically minded editors to consider walking away from the work they do to maintain the encyclopedia in a valuable and useful state. You may wish to read User:Raymond arritt/Expert withdrawal. I personally intend to boycot all articles with fringe problems in the month of february and will encourage others to do so as well. PouponOnToast (talk) 14:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Already there, Poupon, and I have been there myself in the past long before that piece, with writings of my own that I now cannot remember rhe article location of... LinaMishima (talk) 14:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there a page on searching WP? Anthon01 (talk) 17:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Scientific data on the biological effects of homeopathic preparations

There has been significant research in recent years indicating that homeopathic preparations, even at the 200C level, have significant biological effects on test animals using objective measurement parameters.

Carcinosin 200C & Chelidonium 200C

"Efficacy of the potentized Drug, Carcinosin 200 fed Alone and in combination with another drug - Chelidonium 200, in Amelioration of p-Dimethylaminoazobenzene- induced Hepatocarcinogenisis in Mice." Surjyo Jyoti Biswas, Surajit Pathak, Nandini Bhattacharjee, Jayanta Kumar Das, Anisur Rahman Khuda-Bukhsh. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. October 1, 2005, 11(5): 839-854. [15]

The relative efficacy of the two potentized remedies, alone or in combination, in combating hepatocarcinogenesis was assessed through several cytogenetical endpoints such as chromosome aberrations, induction of micronuclei, sperm head anomaly, and mitotic index at several intervals of fixation (days 7, 15, 30, 60, 90, and 120). Several toxicity biomarkers such as acid and alkaline phosphatases, glutamate oxaloacetate transaminase, glutamate pyruvate transaminase, and lipid peroxidation activity were also assayed in three organs of treated and control mice. In addition, recovery by the homeopathic drugs, if any, of tissue damage inflicted because of chronic feeding of p-DAB and PB was also assessed by optical, scanning, and transmission electron microscopies of liver done at days 60 and 120. Both Carcinosin 200 and Chelidonium 200 when administered alone show considerable ameliorative effect against p-DAB–induced hepatocarcinogenesis in mice; but the conjoint feeding of these two drugs appears to have had a slightly greater protective effect.

Arsenicum Album 200C

"A Potentized Homeopathic Drug, Arsenicum Album 200, Can Ameliorate Genotoxicity Induced by Repeated Injections of Arsenic Trioxide in Mice." P. Banerjee, S. J. Biswas, P. Belon, A. R. Khuda-Bukhsh (2007) Journal of Veterinary Medicine Series. A 54 (7), 370–376. [16]

Several toxicity assays, such as cytogenetical (chromosome aberrations, micronuclei, mitotic index, sperm head anomaly) and biochemical (acid and alkaline phosphatases, lipid peroxidation), were periodically made. Compared with controls, the drug fed mice showed reduced toxicity at statistically significant levels in respect of all the parameters studied, thereby indicating protective potentials of the homeopathic drug against chronic arsenic poisoning.

Lycopodium 200C

"Supportive Evidence for the Anticancerous Potential of Alternative Medicine against Hepatocarcinogenesis in Mice" S. Pathak; N. Bhattacharjee; J.K. Das; S.C. Choudhury; S.R. Karmakar; P. Banerjee; S. Paul; A. Banerjee; A. Khuda-Bukhsh. Cytogenetics and Molecular Biology Laboratory, Department of Zoology, University of Kalyani, West Bengal, India Forsch Komplementärmed. 2007;14:148-156 [17]

The following parameters were assessed: cytogenetic endpoints like chromosome aberrations, micronuclei, mitotic index and sperm-head anomaly; toxicity biomarkers like acid and alkaline phosphatases, alanine and aspartate amino transferase, glutathione reductase, succinate dehydrogenase and catalase activities, lipid peroxidation and reduced glutathione content. Additionally, scanning and transmission electron microscopic analyses of liver tissues were made at day 90 and 120, and immunodetection of p53 protein as well as gelatin zymography for matrix metalloproteinases in liver tissue were performed. Furthermore, studies were conducted on blood glucose, hemoglobin and cholesterol, estradiol, testosterone and cortisol, and lymphocyte and hepatic cell viabilities. Physical properties of Lyco-200 and potentized alcohol 200 were analyzed by using methods such as UV, Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR), Fluorescence Spectroscopy, 1H-NMR and 13C-NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy). Results: Lyco-200 reduced cytogenetic damages yielding positive modulations of all biochemical, pathological and other risk factors, cell viability and expression of p53 protein and matrix metalloproteinases as compared to controls. Conclusion: Studies on other mammals are recommended to further investigate the potential of Lyco-200 in liver cancer.

This research data should not be dismissed and ignored. Arion 3x3 (talk) 14:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you stop posting reams of this stuff here? Just give references and say why you think it should be included. --RDOlivaw (talk) 14:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not have access to the full text of any of these articles, so I can not personally comment on the methodology used. All the trials had placebo groups (although it was unclear in two of them how appropriate the placebo choice was). The first and second articles had much stronger conclusions than the third article, it must be noted. None of them provided information regarding the sample sizes in use, and the first study lacked a control group receiving no treatment (which is an important requirement as well as a placebo group. Thankfully with mice, ethics is not such an issue with this). These are but three studies, however, and they do not counter all the studies pointing in a different direction, nor do they address the many other issues. And finally, as RDO states, posting all this information here in this manner serves little purpose but to inflame. If you wish the details to be added to the article, then we can look into that. Please note that whilst I have been willing to concede that more research is needed and methods of action could exist, those who argue in favour of homeopathy's efficacy seem to generally just insist that it is so and not even begin to concede that it may be as the larger, better, studies have shown and as the current understanding of science indicates. Being willing to accept all possibilities and discuss them is a hallmark of science, insisting upon your viewpoint is a hallmark of faith. LinaMishima (talk) 15:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that "Being willing to accept all possibilities and discuss them is a hallmark of science" and that has been my point all along. Being closed-minded and insisting that homeopathy cannot possibly be true - despite evidence to the contrary - is not an example of the scientific approach.

I posted this information:

• because you asked for it
• because I would like to have it summarized and presented in a section of the article on Scientific research supportive of homeopathy (I have posted numerous references to valid scientific research, with the intent that this be done, only to have it lost in a mass of back and forth postings on this page.)

Also, I would point out that the article Where Does Homeopathy Fit in Pharmacy Practice? [18] clearly states about the 2005 Lancet meta-analysis:

In contrast to findings by Kleijnen and Linde, a 2005 meta-analysis by Shang et al that was published in Lancet found that the efficacy of homeopathic treatment was no different than placebo. However, this study has been highly criticized for being methodologically flawed on many levels. Of particular concern, the researchers eliminated 102 of 110 homeopathic trials and based their conclusions on only the 8 largest high-quality trials without clearly identifying the criteria by which these trials were selected or the identity of these trials. Odds ratios calculated before the exclusions (on all 110 trials) do not support their ultimate conclusion that homeopathic interventions are no better than placebo.

An encyclopedia article on homeopathy or any other subject should not be turned into a battleground of special interests seeking to have their own biased version prevail. As I have said before, this article must not be either a pro or anti homeopathy article, but a neutrally presented exposition of the subject, with opposing and supporting data presented in their own respective sections. It is also not the role of any editor here to pass judgment on which research data passes their personal litmus test to qualify for inclusion in this article. Arion 3x3 (talk) 15:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Then why are you so intent on turning it into a battleground? Can you please not post large quotes from studies, but cite them properly, as I asked you before. --RDOlivaw (talk) 15:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I find interesting that the very letter mentioned above states "These conflicts, coupled with the existence of some high-quality trials that did not show a benefit with homeopathy have caused many pharmacists to conclude that homeopathy is nothing more than quackery." PouponOnToast (talk) 15:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This probably explains the selective quoting. I think it should be made policy on this page that full references be provided, and anyone found misrepresenting a source like this gets a severe ticking off (I don't know how or what, and it'd probably make things worse anyway) --RDOlivaw (talk) 15:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Arion please refrian from selective quoting. it makes us look bad and causes other editors to destrust our edits even in good faith. WP:QUOTE.Smith Jones (talk) 16:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Despite the evidence to the contrary, there still exists the problems of method of action (but we shall not look at this again), and all the quality evidence against the efficacy of homeopathy. Most of the evidence in support of homeopathy has a number of major flaws, however some (which may include the articles you refer to) are of a good standard. The 1997 meta-analysis which found in favour of homeopathy, for example, was found to have given undue prominence to the lower quality studies, and when re-examined reveals a different trend [19]. The Shang 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet also finds in favour of placebo effect. This article has been criticised for the exclusion of 102 of the homeopathic studies (it should be noted that they compared this result to a similarly excluded set of conventional medicine studies), however careful reading makes clear that is not the exclusion that is the issue (which the biased data sets clearly warranted - see the BMJ article again), but the lack of a defined and repeatable procedure for selecting what to include. The trend for the larger studies, when combined with the BMJ guide on meta-analysis forms a very strong analysis. If you need a copy of any of these articles, please let me know.

The idea of a section entitled "Scientific research supportive of homeopathy" is a poor idea, since firstly it is not good practice to separate arguments from eachother in separate sections, and secondly the title does imply a biased view. However the similar title of "scientific research into the efficacy (effectiveness) of homeopathic treatment" could used, and both contain the apparently positive animal studies and the clear results of the meta-data analyses and larger studies. Similarly, any section talking about the method of action should be titled "scientific research into the method of action", rather than "existance of" or "impossibility of".

Regarding deciding which research data can be in the article, we have a concept of a reliable source. Were possible, a randomised double-blind placebo and controlled study will trump any lesser methodology. This is not my personal opinion, but that of the entire medical establishment, and wikipedia should use the same basis for determining the reliability of a source. The Lancet is also a far better source than the journal Homeopathy for matters of clinical effectiveness (obviously, for matters of homeopathic technique, patient-homeopath relations, and so on, Homeopathy is prefered).

Finally, I would like to make a note about your style and approach here today. I understandably ask for a reference for the claim of significant biological effects, as references that I found made it clear that placebo effect does occur in animals, and I was genuinely curious as to if the studies featured a placebo group. As you have seen, upon later seeing that the studies did, I respected that and the results they reached. However initially, rather than respecting my request and taking it as the good faith curiosity it was, you launched into how I was obviously inventing convoluted explanations to deny the truth of studies I had not yet had a chance to read (and hence even comment upon), you call upon Occam's Razor as an attempted support, and then cry "a method of action does exist!" despite it never being argued once by myself as part of that discussion so far. In response, I pointed out the obvious issue with calling Occam's razor, and then called you out on your attempt to describe a possible method of action (something I would not have done directly without your prompting). Your response to my reasoned argument was to change the subject again back to the studies that I had originally asked for. There is something very dubious about such a style of debating, I'm sure you will agree, however I am sure this is all simply because you needed time to research those references, but wished to point out another, unrelated, fact first. LinaMishima (talk) 17:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

As a totally uninvolved editor may I try to make a suggestion?

I lurk here a lot but lately there's been so much activity that it's hard to keep up with who says what and where most of you stand and what you are disagreeing on. So I would like to suggest that everyone leave their keyboards alone and go to the top of the talk page and read what other's are saying. I actually believe that a lot of you are debating things that you are actually agreeing on but you are not hearing what the other editors are saying. Take a time out to just read the talk page and maybe even reread the article. If necessary, make notes, not on this talk page but on your own pages, on what you feel you are in disagreement with and what you are all agreeing to. I really feel that what is going on here is no one seems to be listening anymore, well I should clarify, maybe some of you are listening, and it's hard to tell to be honest. Then after everyone involved rereads everything then make a new subject title and list your differences and your agreements. Maybe this way you all can see what everyone is trying to do with this article. When things get so involved and heated in articles likes this one, it becomes really hard to see what is actually going on with everyone. Like I said, I am not involved and I don't really care one way or the other about things, I just find that a lot of editors are getting so upset and unhappy that the happy editing has been lost. I don't know if this will help or not, but seriously, what harm can be caused to try this out? I hope my coming here with this suggestion doesn't upset anyone because that is not what I am trying to do at all and I apologize if what I say here upsets anyone in advance. I am just trying to help calm the waters and see if doing something like this would help advance everyone into a calm and reasonable discussion rather than the constant warring and everyone being so upset. --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

A quick scan of the talk page indicates that at least 37 of the current 67 sections are the result of discussions regarding or devoted to either the wording of the article lead, the pseudoscience category, or the pseudoscience/disputed science infobox. Clearly things have become far out of hand, and these three issues are dominating over other potential improvements to the article. LinaMishima (talk) 17:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

it would be a freakish and unsuaul torture to make some reread the entire page all oer again. I was there for most of thewhole discussionand I remember vividly the points tat were made and those are the ones that LinaMishima:User just liste.d We have already resolved the pseudeoscience category debate and the lead-wording issue seems to have been temporarily fumbled by either the allopaths or the homoepaths (its hard to tell now). If we could get the article unprotected by avoiding an edit war and achieving any kind of conesnsus then it will begreat. Earlier I listed several meditation techniques that wec ould use to mediate this debate and I noticed that a lot of users categorically refused to even consider them. Another administartor Ryan Postlethwait mentioned some of these techniques again and they were again refused. I am not sure how much more of this we can keep up and remain and effective encyclopedia editorial unit. Smith Jones (talk) 18:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

We have already resolved the pseudoscience category debate? What planet are you living on? --Art Carlson (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The underlying issue is that some people want to write a real article based on real facts, and others are not acting in good faith and not interested in promoting a neutral point of view, by acting as apologists for homeopathy. They will use any tactic they can to keep this article from becoming a reality-based perspective on a pseudoscientific fraud, including endlessly arguing in circles, using the talk page as a place to argue about the article's subject, or just typing in a private language and demanding that others decode them. Until the unreasonable people are removed from the article, neither the discussion nor the article itself has any hope of reaching consensus, let alone a reliable level of quality. These people know that any properly cited, properly factual article about homeopathy will unambiguously state that homeopathy is not science, not true, and promoted exclusively by scam artists, and thus they will do anything to keep the article from being good. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 19:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Randy, please remember of course that it is mostly a pseudoscientific fraud, that not all homeopaths are unethical (some recommend regular healthcare as well, and certainly not all advocate homeopathy as the sole treatment for aids), research is being carried out by a few and occasionally it raises points in need of further research. In general terms, however, it is lacking in basis of course and many are unethical, and most the current theory is pseudoscience, and as such that is what the article has to document. but it does not serve anyone's purpose to insist on homeopathy being black or white... it seems to be a very dark grey to me, and we can cover the lighter touches as well as the dark :P Simply calling it all junk and bad is as equally helpful to resolving this as calling it all perfect (although more accurate in the former). LinaMishima (talk) 19:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

C'mon, what good has come out of homeopathy in the last 50 years? In the beginning of its use, homeopathy was excellent because the allopathic establishment was more likely to kill patients than cure them. Certainly, laying out in a homeopathic hospital being treated with water was better than being subjected to the horrific things that passed as "medicine" in the nineteenth century. Since then, homeopathy has stuck firmly in its roots and not gone anywhere while modern medicine is able to address in a systematic, scientific fashion the causes and remedies for disease. Homeopathy relies on innuendo and vague untested principles to justify itself. That's not science: that's pseudoscience. Sure most homeopathy is not going to do a damn thing except for give a patient a placebo effect. So it's not going to hurt someone to take a homeopathic cure except it gives them false hope, encourages magical thinking, bilks them out of money, and can, at times, mislead people into avoiding tried-and-true medical solutions. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The middle-classes in the developing world who happily use doctors for real medicine seem to get peace of mind from homeopathy :P You know I agree with you, SA, I just also agree with Ben Goldcare when he says that homeopathy wouldn't be a problem if they would stop false claims and start acting ethical (especially with respect to serious things like malaria and aids) [20]. Sugar pills and counselling are awesome as long as they don't pretend that they're somehow based in science. And of course, there has been some slight studies done to show some idea of an effect and it would be inappropriate for any scientifically minded person to dismiss any evidence or claim out of hand (we shall just contrast it with all the other studies and point out any failings in the techniques used, and the complete lack of plausibility). To start dismissing things only helps a fringe group argue that there is a conspiracy or cover-up, instead claims must be dragged to the fore, into the light of truth. LinaMishima (talk) 20:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with having an article on homeopathy that fairly, neutrally, and completely describes all you list above. There are others at this article who have a different agenda, though. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for 2 sections on scientific research

I have started a new section, so as not to engage in a "style of debating" that changes the subject right in the middle of a debate.

• I believe that the best way to improve the article is to discuss changes before they are made to the article. Most editors who have commented on this page in the last 7 weeks have been adament that there is no evidence that higher potencies (above 12C) have any biological effects. If we can just get over that hurdle, then we will have some grounds for respect for homeopathy and a greater chance for fairness and neutrality in the editing and improvement of this article.
• I agree that a section entitled "Scientific research into the efficacy (effectiveness) of homeopathic treatment" is better wording.
• I agree that a section entitled "Scientific research into the method of action" is a good idea.
• I stand by my analogy about the 2 CDs, since the argument as to why homeopathy should not be taken seriously (and should be insulted with the label "pseudoscience") has been repeated numerous times on the basis that it's only water, and chemical analysis will reveal only water (above 12C potency). I wrote an analogy this morning of 2 CDs that are chemically identical, yet one can be a blank and another can have encoded upon it an entire library of data. My response to comments about that analogy is:

(1) this analogy was only dealing with chemical composition (not whether an "Enya CD" visually looks the same as a blank CD).

(2) True, the mode of encoding CDs involves heat; my chemical composition analogy was not dealing theories about the potential mode of transmission in homeopathic preparations. I merely was pointing out that the 2 CDs are chemically identical (which has been one argument used against homeopathy).

(3) Regarding the objection that water as a soluent in "potentization" (dilution & succussion) is not solid and a CD is solid: in the 21st century most of us understand how matter actually is not as "solid" as previous concepts of the last century supposed.

There are considerable numbers of research studies that have been and are being performed in other countries that have yet to be translated into English. Unfortunately, there are very few recent ones in English. The ones that have been done have often been flawed in their design.

For example, in the 2005 meta-analysis that everyone is pointing to, the reality is that all these trials were not structured according to the well established principles of homeopathy. Just look at the Shipley, Jenkins et al, trial 11 that was the most negative for homeopathy: Rhus tox 6x was tested for osteoarthritis and found to have no effect. What everyone needs to know is that Rhus tox is almost never used by homeopaths in osteoarthritis cases (more for rheumatic problems or fibrositis). Other remedies like Causticum, one of the Kali remedies, one of the Calcarea or Natrum remedies might have been considered, but not Rhus tox. This is as wrong as a medical doctor prescribing a muscle relaxant for "pink eye", finding there was no effect, and concluding that mainstream medicine is ineffective. Arion 3x3 (talk) 20:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

According to what standard are *any* principles of homeopathy "well-established?" Standards of efficacy, standards of verifiability, standards of truth, standards of accord with scientific theory? Naturezak (talk) 20:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe Arion is refering to individualisation of the treatment for the patient involved. Trials can be designed to include this, but it raises costs to that of an entire 'pharmacopoeia' worth of remedies and placebos. To be honest, that is exactly the sort of trial that is need, but is rarely if ever performed. LinaMishima (talk) 20:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there any scientific basis for claiming that "individualisation" is a neccessary component of homeopathic therapy? Certainly the molecules purportedly involved in homeopathic preparations don't have any way of knowing whether the dilution was administered perfunctorily or in the context of a properly long and deep patient-homeopath relationship. As DrEightyEight says, this is just a shifting of the goalposts and is no substitute for answering the question. Naturezak (talk) 14:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

They claim that you need to individualise as there are often a number of different underlying problems, and that's what matters. To not allow this will cause claims of bias. When testing someone's claims, one should allow the fullest extent of the claims to be used that does not then render the testing process biased or otherwise flawed. In this case, individualisation can be allowed when doing a randomised double-blind placebo controlled trial, as all it would require is that each homeopathic remedy in their stock have a number of different copies which may or may not be the placebo, but an allocation list is used to ensure that a given patient gets entirely placebo or entirely remedy. The aim is to test the full extent of their claims, and if one can do so and still get viable results, it should be done. LinaMishima (talk) 22:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You get directly to my question, then: is there any scientific basis to the claim that homeopathy is ineffective EXCEPT when individualized? For that is the corollary implied. Naturezak (talk) 23:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a plausible basis to individualisation, and it is used to a degree in conventional medicine (pharmacogenetics, contra-indications, and so on). Most large non-individualised studies do not show in favour of homeopathy. Anyhow, don't ask me, I'm not a homeopath or even someone who believes it can work. I simply don't see a problem in designing a study that allows for individualisation and hence removes a common complaint about studies into the effectiveness or otherwise. LinaMishima (talk) 00:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think individualised trials have been conducted, and mentioned here. They showed no effect if I recall correctly. But whatever you do the goalposts get moved. I think the two sections idea is very bad. There should be a scientific analysis section, and it should be balanced (ie, give more weight to the predominant scientific view) --DrEightyEight (talk) 20:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Potencies above 12C, it must be noted, have only animal studies at most to show efficacy. Sadly many smaller studies in humans have failed to follow proper scientific methodology, and small sample sizes are always advised against, and as such meta-analyses have to eventually either set these aside or correct for their bias (which can also be towards placebo, of course). For details on correcting for this, see the BMJ article once more. I will agree that it is wrong for large studies to be conducted in a manner which prevents normal homeopathic treatment, however the only change this can do to the result is to change it to inconclusive, not to a supportive result.

Regarding your CD analogy, your second and third points clearly displayed a lack of understanding of the arguments as to why it is a poor comparison and why it is strongly believed that no known method of action exists and is supported by science. It's a complex area to understand though, and your key point - that it is not all just about the molecules, was understood. I shall have a think to see if I can figure out a better one (I doubt it is possible, however, but I will try).

What we need is for the pro-science group to accept that studies currently do not completely rule out any possible result (which I think they will generally accept), but also for the pro-homeopathy group to accept that currently, quality studies do not rule substantially in favour yet either and many indeed (but not all) point towards it simply being placebo. Both sides need to agree that the important aspects here are the extended patient time and the placebo effect, and these do have a strong, measured and proven effect. Both sides also need to agree that current studies are not large enough, not methodological enough and not in keeping with certain claims enough to allow any complete conclusion to be drawn. Homeopathic supporters must also agree that whilst there is speculation on a possible method of action, no speculation as of yet matches with our current understanding of science, hence rendering them implausible. All sides must also agree that research is ongoing from both conventional medical researchers and homeopaths.

The article itself would do best focusing upon the history of homeopathy, its cultural impact, and the ethical issues that have arisen in recent years, rather than any supposed evidence or method of action (which will need mention, however should not become the entirety of the article). LinaMishima (talk) 20:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Okay, let me put it this way: Say I have two CDs, one blank, one Enya (what the hell). What test can be performed to determine which is which? Easy. Put them in a CD drive which can read them. If you go beyond consumer-level technology, you can test the CDs to show that one has an array of pits scored into it while the other doesn't. It's simple and known how they differ, and we have technology that can handle it.

Now, let's say I have two samples of water. One I poured out of the tap. The other is 15C diluted whatever (diluted with tap water for consistency), succussed in a glass bottle (and whatever other ritual is necessary). How would you tell the difference between the two? Even if you agree to the homeopaths' contention that this will treat some condition, it's at best a statistical effect (and small at that). So having people drink from these samples won't do much good. What else could be done?

Look at this another way: We developed CD technology which stores information on a disc in a certain manner. We also then developed technology which could read this information when encoded in this specific manner. Now, for homeopathy, the method supposedly stores information in water in some manner, but no technology was created in order to read this information. Instead, it's fed directly to a human. What is the chance that the human body was pre-made able to somehow understand this information and then know exactly what to do to treat certain conditions? What mechanism in the human body does this information reading and then translates this into a cure for whatever ailment is appropriate?

If you don't mind, I would appreciate some answer beyond "We don't know how it works, but look at [studies, provings, etc.], it does! We've gone over repeatedly already why no study has shown convincing evidence for Homeopathy. What I'm asking here is specifically how it is supposed to work, not whether it works. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 20:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this the right forum? As is obvious, the physics and chemistry at work here is not understood by supporters of homeopathy. You have seen that I have already written a long debunk on this earlier, but I would rather leave this topic be. A wikipedia talk page does not exist to convert or save people, it exists to help the article. I suspect that discussing this in depth will not help improve the article, and will only aggravate homeopathy supporters and make them less willing to co-operate as they will feel persecuted. If you want to do that, fine, just do it elsewhere. LinaMishima (talk) 20:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I did go a bit far there, but my goal was simply to try an alternative explanation for why the analogy doesn't work. The only way I could see it being made to work was if the human body could somehow play the role of the CD player, so I asked how that might be. This is getting a bit far from the article, granted, but it does tie back in eventually once you untangle all the threads that led here. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 21:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Response I agree with Lina that this page is not for such general discussions. I have been trying for 7 weeks to suggest specific proposals to improve the article, have it discussed, and then hopefully act upon an agreed consensus.

However, I will respond to Infophile's point about human physiology responding to diluted substances. Mainstream medicine is using that principle all the time in vaccinations and allergy shots. The only difference is the dilution levels and lack of succussion. Arion 3x3 (talk) 21:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope, there are more differences. In vaccinations (lumping in allergy shots), the amount of the substance is small but detectable. You can run tests to detect whether it's there outside of the human body. Additionally, the mechanism through which these work is well-known and documented. In homeopathic preparations past ~12C, there's nothing there but water, there's no way to detect the difference, and there's no known mechanism for action. Certainly, if you were to continue to dilute vaccinations, they would stop working. This apparently isn't true for homeopathic remedies. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 21:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

There are such massive differences between vaccinations, allergy desensitisation and homeopathy that to say it is the same principle is completely false (similar, maybe). Vaccinations use small does to prevent too strong an immune response, but must use enough to ensure that an immune response occurs. Allergy desensitisation starts with small doses and gradually builds up the levels applied to cause the body to accept the triggering material as normal and not a hazard. It also must work with a measurable amount of the triggering material. And it must be stressed, there are other forms of allergy treatment that work in different ways. With both of these, the entire chemical and biological process is completely and thoroughly understood, and based upon a measurable but controlled dose of the substances in question. The immune system is really quite fascinating, I recommend you read into how it works. LinaMishima (talk) 21:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Err the two CDs would not be chemically identical. Assuming you meant bulk manufactured CDs rather than home recorded ones (which would be comparatively easy to tell apart) the different surface areas introduced by pitting vs non pitting would produce chemical differences over time. Hard to detect mind.Geni 23:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

In our clinic, I have for the last 27 years been using homeopathic remedies (at 6C to CM levels) to desensitize patients who have allegies - successfully. Homeopathy is really quite fascinating, I recommend you read into how it works. Arion 3x3 (talk) 22:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

1) What is your control group? 2) Why are you editing this article if you have a pro-homeopathy POV? 3) Why should we believe anything you say? 4) Why do you think a talk page is a forum for general discussion of an article's subject? Randy Blackamoor (talk) 22:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding 1), no control group is needed to use a therapy, only to determine its true effectiveness. If it works it works, what matters more are the ethics of the presentation and the rest of the practice. 2) and 3) are perhaps reasonable points (although 3 can be applied to everyone). We are all somewhat guilty of 4). LinaMishima (talk) 23:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It still stands however that the differences are real and significant. I have read into homeopathy, there is no means for it to work, but it can appear to work (which may or may not be homeopathy working). As long as your patients are benefiting from this, and you are acting ethically (ensuring medical care also occurs, not making dangerous claims, and so on), I have no problem with this at all and might even approve. I would advise that you make a statement on your userpage of the above, just to make sure all editors are clear about your COI. LinaMishima (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It works through the placebo effect! By the way, nice job at rapidly changing the focus of the argument, Arion. One wonders why you might feel the need to do that... --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 23:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't vote on NPOV, undue weight, verifiable references, etc. Science is pretty clear. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There is so much patent nonsense in here I do not know where to begin. Just because by one measure you see no difference between the blank CD and one with a recording, or a blank bit of audio tape and one with a recording, or levorotary sugar and its enantiamorph dextrorotary sugar, does not mean that is not another measure by which they are different. And of course we have many such methods of determining differences. In the case of homeopathy, we have no such methods of determining differences, and have no hope of developing such methods of determining differences, and have never had such methods of determining differences. A HUGE difference. Of course, if I taste the blank CD and the nonblank CD, they might taste the same, but if I use a CD player, I have a method that shows they are different. And where is the evidence that a glass of pure water and a glass of 10M homeopathic remedy are different? We have looked and looked and looked, and no one has been able to confirm a difference. So until there is some way found to confirm a difference in a repeatable mensuration event, as far as we can tell, there is no difference. You are welcome to invent such a method of course, but that is WP:OR and until you get it published in a WP:RS, we cannot include it here. But thanks anyway.--Filll (talk) 00:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Carpe diem

We have been blessed with a week of protection. Would anybody like to use it constructively? My suggestion is to see to what extent we agree on what Wikipedia policy and guidelines say in the category issue. You may believe that the policy is misguided, or that there are good reasons to deviate from it in this case, and we may ultimately disagree about how to apply it, but shouldn't we at least be able to agree on what it is? I would like to ask the other editors a few questions:

• Do we agree that the burden of proof lies with those wishing to add content, in this case the pseudoscience category?
• Do we agree that proof in Wikipedia always means reliable sources? ("End of discussion" is not a valid argument.)
• Do we agree that it is required to show not merely that "some critics allege [homeopathy] to be pseudoscience", but that it is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community"?

Of course we don't agree on these points, but since they are all taken directly from policies, guidelines, or ArbCom decisions, I would really like to hear whether the critics are not aware of these points or honestly read them differently. Thanks. --Art Carlson (talk) 21:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree with any of those points, however, they must be applied evenly and across the board. Specifically on the third point, we must also agree that it is required to show not mereley that "one study showed an effect" but rather that "the scientific community acknoledged an effect through multiple studies." The problem here is with anecdotal reference to individual studies of questionable merit and accuracy. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, Poupon, with respect to showing an effect and anecdotal references. Please elaborate based upon the evidence. LinaMishima (talk) 22:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Over and over again the response to meta-studies and well referenced respected journals saying things has been "This article in substandard-journal-nobody-publishes-in-impact-factor-0 says that in a controlled study on three dudes in india Homeopathy WORKED TO RELIEVE HEAD PAIN." PouponOnToast (talk) 22:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, right, thank you. I became confused over the assumptions needed to understand your otherwise sensible point. My apologies. LinaMishima (talk) 22:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

When attempting dispute resolution it is advisable to avoid loaded questions. In your framing of the questions, you suppose that the burden of proof lies with proving that homeopathy is a pseudoscience. However, this has been done repeatedly and extremely strongly. Those sources which do not state this explicitly state the definition of pseudoscience. The burden of proof now is on the homeopathic community to prove that it is not a pseudoscience. Please see my earlier posts on this matter, which feature complete logic that I am not going to replicate here. Furthermore, it is unclear if you are intending this to apply for only the categorisation, or for the entire article in general. A far less loaded and more neutral set of questions may be formed, and other questions still may be asked, and until this is done, this section will be nothing but another addition of fuel to the fire, never intended to reach any form of compromise. LinaMishima (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm.... comment please. According to WP, "Pseudoscience is any alleged body of knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that is claimed to be scientific or made to appear scientific but does not adhere to the scientific method", right? So, in order for homeopathy to be labelled "pseudoscience", we would have to find that both:

• A) homeopathy claims to be scientific or made to appear scientific, and
• B) homeopathy doesn't adhere to the scientific method.

Right? I just want to know if there is agreement NOT on what the answer to the question "Is h. pseudoscience?" is, but to what one has to show to label something pseudoscience.

• Second, in point A), above, what does "scientific" mean: already verified by science, OR verifiable (if the right studies were done) and (somehow), plausible ... (OR, something else)? (point B above is quite a bit more specific than A: "adheres to the scientific method").

For starters. Friarslantern (talk) 01:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Point A is weakly defined because it does not encompass only one set of actions, but rather a list of possible indications that, in conjunction with each other, form the appearance of the trappings of science. Obviously if something is already verified by science, it has had to adhere to scientific methods at some point and hence is not pseudoscience. Verifiability is another odd one, since one can put forth a verifiable claim (heals people better than placebo) but then refuse to test this claim according to the scientific method. Good indications that something appears to be a science are qualifications, some form of testing and studying (remember, for this step quality does not matter, that is for B to determine), a proposed method of action, professional conferences, the publication of journals about the subject, claims of evidence based work (evidence based work may or may not follow the scientific method), an insistence upon your members being of equal status to those within another scientific profession, an insistence of your work being of an equal status to that of other sciences, attempts to persuade government funding bodies for science to fund you (including tax relief), acting in a professional manner based upon knowledge rather than spiritual understanding, arguments that are apparently based upon logic rather than social, moral and spiritual values, the appropriation of terms from scientific fields, the attempt to use the research of other scientific fields to support your own, and so on. It is normally plainly evident when something adopts the trappings of science, and many such groups make life simple by stating that they 'are' a science rather than a belief. LinaMishima (talk) 01:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

For example, "Homeopathy is an effective and scientific system of healing" [21] LinaMishima (talk) 02:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Art. I agree with you. Lina: I am missing the point of this discussion. Is this an attempt to define homeopathy as Psci in order to put that in the article? Please clarify. PT: I generally agree with you also. One objection might to the conclusions of meta-analyses; we would have to look at them with a critical eye, on a case by case basis. Anthon01 (talk) 02:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a discussion that has been dredged back up. See my reply to Art for my commentary on their post, my above is with respect to Frairslantern's query as to my previous arguments regarding the definition of pseudoscience and how such an assignment may be challenged. They asked me to clarify the meaning of "appears to be scientific", and so I did. I hope this explains the post and makes the discussion make more sense. It should be noted for the record that the logical basis of the use of the term pseudoscience to describe the opinions of prominent critics (and arguably the scientific profession as a general whole) has yet to be challenged properly. Again, see my previous posts on this matter for the three grounds upon which a challenge may be based before attempting to do so. LinaMishima (talk) 02:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

For more information on my previous arguments, please see this section, which states the arguments at least twice and they received only a cursory challenge (a request for evidence that homeopathy claims to be scientific). LinaMishima (talk) 03:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd already read through your comments before asking my question. I don't see how that helps us write anything in the text. I can see how it might support the inclusion of the category tag, but besides that I'm not sure what else. Anthon01 (talk) 04:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Anthon please rememer to sign your posts more often. Smith Jones (talk) 02:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

@PouponOnToast: I note your agreement on the category issue. On the issue of using secondary sources, I agree with you strongly. --Art Carlson (talk) 10:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

@LinaMishima (and partially @Friarslantern): I know my questions are a bit loaded and I apologize. I barely have enough time to follow this discussion, much less craft my contributions to the degree I would like. At the present I am only concerned with the pseudoscience category (and perhaps the closely related questions of the pseudoscience info box and "categorical" statements in the text that homeopathy is a pseudoscience). I gather from your response and previous posts that you agree with my first two points, although you are afraid they might be misinterpreted. I am afraid we disagree substantially on the third. My reading of policy is that we are not called upon to determine whether homeopathy really is pseudoscience, which seems to be the thrust of your posts, but rather to determine who holds it to be pseudoscience. Do you understand the distinction I am trying to make? --Art Carlson (talk) 10:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Contaminations should be mentioned when discussing extreme dilutions

If you repeatedly dilute some substance over and over again, you don't end up with pure water containing none of the molecules of the substance for a trivial reason: (purified) water will still contain all sorts of molecules at extremely low concentrations. I think that CO2 will be the largest contaminant, but you can expect to find many atoms of virtually all the stable elements of the periodic table in a litre of the purest sample of water that can be made.  :) Count Iblis (talk) 00:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Whilst this is a very true point, and indeed similar arguments cause trouble with any attempt to use 'information' concepts to explain homeopathic methods of action, this is not something we can simply mention.

Firstly, WP:V must be met, we will need a source discussing the contamination of common homeopathic solvents. I actually went looking for one earlier today, and failed to find a simple chart of the impurities for distilled water! I would have thought such a chart would be common, but apparently not. We would also ideally need a source discussing how this relates to the claims of homeopaths.

Secondly, homeopaths make no claim that I am aware of that no contaminants exist (indeed, some rely on contaminants from test tubes to explain the actions!). Without a verifiable source stating how this aspect causes problems for the homeopath's claimed effects, and without a claim from homeopaths as to the purity of their remedies, such an insertion would be a simple breach of NPOV and NOR (for we would have to speculate unfairly with regards to the opinions of homeopaths). LinaMishima (talk) 01:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

User:LinaMishima raises a good apoint. hwoever I think that we are focusing too heavily on Internet sourcs. While they are easily verifiable and very numerous, a lot of them have extremely large oversights such as the one he or she mentioned bbove. I am planning to go to a nearby homoeoeopathic library in a few days and I will try and look for the informaiton that has been requested. Hopefully its they're or I can find it their somewhere. Smith Jones (talk) 02:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a difference between an oversight, and an absence. The most likely cause for not finding the chart was not that sources overlooked it, but that I, no longer versed in the study of chemistry, was not looking in the best place (I really wanted a chemist supplier's data sheet). LinaMishima (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

i never siad that the sources were absent, only that it might have been overlooked by Internet sources that you looked at that where focused on another aspect of chemistry. if you or anyone can find an Internet source sthat covers this, that would be fabuluos but while you are doing that then I see no reason why I should nto look for a print sources that does ot the sexact same thing. Smith Jones (talk) 02:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that one has to do some literature research to find appropriate sources to back up everything what we write here. However, a simple source about trace contaminations in distilled water would suffice if we just want to mention that 100% pure water does not exist in practice without making any statements about homeopathy. This article mentions the extreme dilutions quite a few times, and people can then wrongly get the impression that it is possible in practice to make a solution that contains less than a single molecule of a given substance with almost 100% probability.

Many people (even many scientists) would be surprised if you told them that there could exist superheavy stable isotopes of some common heavy elements, like e.g. gold at concentrations of one part in 10^14 or so. See e.g. this article and the refs in there. This is a rather persistent unawareness that I've encountered. Count Iblis (talk) 14:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Another approach to the pseudoscience category issue

The following post was made at User:Raymond arritt/Expert withdrawal:

A principled scientist should learn how to explain science. It would be just as wrong to withdraw from editing WP as to withdraw from teaching science courses to nonscientists. There is no need to "label" pseudoscience, just to explain it. Anyone who claims to be an expert should be able to give an object description of even the most absurd theory. an objective description will make it plain to everyone but the convinced anti-science POV. There is no need to resort to labels to explain things to a unprejudiced reader. (and no hope at all that a label convince the prejudiced to look at things more scientifically). Homeopathy (for example), explained in any straightforward way, is obvious nonsense, and I do not see what is gained by trying to say it is pseudoscience--it will only give the impression that the scientist is the bigot. Those who resort to opprobrium always give an impression that it is they who are prejudiced. The thing to do with the ignorant is to teach them, and those who want to defend science have the obligation to learn how to do it patiently. DGG (talk) 05:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

In addition to the above, we also know the following statements of fact:

• There is significant evidence for the use of the term pseudoscience
• In general, the weight of evidence is that there is little to no evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy beyond placebo
• Some reasonable studies do exist that suggest homeopathy has or might have an effect beyond placebo
• The method of action of homeopathy if it does work is not plausable within the current understanding of science
• Various homeopathic organisations claim to be 'scientific'
• Most homeopathic organisations, despite claims of science, also talk about 'healing energies', 'disharmony' and other, less-scientific and more spiritual concepts (NB: discovered to be more correctly 'some' than 'most'. This point may be disputed/ignored)
• Homeopathy does work as a placebo and this is a good thing
• Homeopathy exists as a CAM, has a strong and interesting history, and has a place in modern culture
• Homeopathy currently is criticised for the poor ethics of certain homeopaths

For references for some of the above statements, please see Society of Homoepaths and Ben Goldcare, Lancet author, journalist and medical doctor, and the various references throughout this talk page and its archives. From the above, I suggest the following means to go forward:

1. No pseudoscience category or infobox DGG's comment included above is a sound one, and explains why these are not needed. Also, see the next point.
2. Mention in the lead of critics calling homeopathy pseudoscience We have plenty of references for this, and so a mention at least in passing is warranted.
3. Lead focuses on the history, cultural and ethical issues These are the least controversial issues and arguably the most interesting.
4. Lead should mention some of the 'spiritual' elements The 'disharmony' approach and similar are common enough to form an important part of understanding homeopathy.
5. Lead should mention but downplay the method of homoepathic preparation It is this preparation that is the direct cause of all the fuss. Various homeopaths seem to have differed on the 'strengths' advised. There is not really much to state on this topic anyway.
6. Lead should mention, following homeopathic preparation, that science cannot justify it The logical place to criticise the method of action is where the method of action is forced via the preparation process.
7. Lead should mention briefly the positive studies There has been positive studies, we should acknowledge this fact.
8. Lead should then strongly highlight the weight of evidence against any effect The weight of evidence is against any effect, this is clear.
9. Lead should clearly highlight the major ethical issues A lot of sceptics highlight the ethical problems as their major concern
10. Article should concentrate upon the history and cultural aspects of homeopathy since these are the least controversial, the least changing, and the easiest for an encyclopaedia to document
11. Article should detail clearly the 'spiritual' aspects As stated previously, it appears that 'disharmony', 'life energy' and other terms actually seem quite common. The more clearly we detail these, the less homeopathy in general appears like a science (which means the pseudoscience tag is harder to apply, and science-based sceptics will care more about the ethics than the methods).
12. (something here about preparation, method of action, efficacy and lack of evidence) This point has yet to be formed fully. Aside from the detail in preparation needed to explain the modern process of homeopathy, this should not be focused upon in detail. Similarly to the lead, positive studies must be detailed, however the vast weight of evidence against any efficacy over and above placebo must then be made explicitly clear.
13. Article should discuss the non-disputed benefits of homeopathy Believe it or not, there are some non-disputed benefits of homeopathy which even sceptics will agree with. Increased patient contact time, greater communication and strengthened placebo response are all well documented. These factors allow alternative medicine to provide excellent support for chronic conditions and diseases.
14. Article should go into detail regarding the current ethical controversies surrounding homeopathy There are homeopaths out there who advocate homeopathy alone as a defence against malaria and discourage their clients from seeing doctors and taking regular medication. Other homeopaths argue that AIDS can be treated effectively with homeopathy alone and discourage the use of highly effective anti-retroviral treatements. Less serious issues include discouraging the use of regular medication, not referring clients to doctors for certain complaints, and so on.

I am certain that some pro-science people will prefer that a harder stance is taken on the scientific claims, but for those I offer the olive branch of the increased 'belief' aspects and the downplay of homeopathy's own claims to 'science', coupled with the focus upon the ethical aspects. I am equally certain that some pro-homeopathy-is-science people will disapprove, but equally they receive less prominent criticism based off the weight of scientific evidence, and I remind them that most sources at least mention a spiritual connection if not focus upon one [22] [23] (mentions 'vital life force', but otherwise tries to be scientific in style). In reading around to support my previous paragraphs, I encountered numerous homeopathic organisations that claimed to be a 'science' and did not document beyond passing mentions any form of spiritual aspect. As such, I am not likely to support again the suggestions I am making here. If desired, the 'science' aspect may be detailed more, but this will have to be coupled with the scientific community's responses and patently obvious flaws being noted. If you do not agree to all the article and lead suggestions, please discuss this so that we may sensibly move forward. Most importantly, can we please get agreement on all the above statements of fact aside from the 'spiritual' aspects. All the rest of the statements are strongly supported by all the evidence. LinaMishima (talk) 04:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply - I respectfully disagree with labeling homeopathy with the category listing it as "pseudoscience". It is appropriate to place a quote within the article stating that it has been criticised by some who have called it a "pseudoscience", but that is different than creating the impression - by using the "Category:Pseudoscience" - that Wikipedia has officially placed a value judgment upon the science of homeopathy.

I would point out that there would be as much resistance if someone placed "Category:Pseudoscience" on the Podiatry or Psychoanalysis articles. If there was a "Category:Pseudoreligion" or "Category:Cult", there would be as much resistance if placed on the Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons articles. All of these have received wide criticism, and quoting criticisms within an article is acceptable. However having Wikipedia insult the subject of an article with a perjorative category label is unacceptable, in my opinion.

• As for the use of the term "disharmony" - this is simply another way of saying that the physiological systems are not in a state of "homeostasis".
• Regarding the criticism of "not referring clients to doctors for certain complaints" - that implies that those utilizing homeopathy are not doctors. Medical doctors and licensed health professionals utilize homeopathy in conjuction with other modalities, including prescription drugs. (Even some of the homepathic medicines, both oral and injectable, are prescription only.) Of course, there are non-physician homeopaths, and all (that I know of) seek to work with their client's treating physician in a cooperative team effort for the greatest benefit possible.
• As for extreme positions, such as advising against vaccinations, those are maintained by only some homeopaths. Making this a major issue in this article would be inappropriate, since there are medical doctors and other health professionals - who do not use homeopathy - that hold such opinions also, and the articles on their professions do not criticize the entire profession for the actions of a few. Arion 3x3 (talk) 13:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, you will notice that I was advocating not using the pseudoscience category. It's right up there in bold, plain for everyone to see. So why you decided to act as if I was suggesting the category be used is completely beyond me.

Most homeopaths are not medical doctors. Those with the biggest practices may be, but the common existance of homeopathy courses which do not have a requirement of being a medical doctor to enter makes it clear that more people are likely to qualify without being doctors than those who are. Doctor is a term bestowed for a certain level of academic achievement, and most homeopathic courses seem to be of bachelor level at most.

The problem with what you are saying is that it is simply not documented by the evidence that homeopaths are in general playing ball and acting ethically. Within the UK, there has been investigations which have shown homeopaths to routinely not refer patients to medical doctors for matters such as malaria protection. As stated, it is these ethical matters that fuel sceptics the most.

As mentioned, the statement of fact regarding spiritual aspects may be discarded as being wrong, and you will note that within these statements, the ethics issue refers to 'certain' homeopaths (a limited, not absolute, group). Given these two points, do you agree with the statement of facts? LinaMishima (talk) 13:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Saying that homeopathy is valid science is ALSO a value judgment. Instead of saying that Wikipedia should strive for a false middle ground on a black-and-white issue, we should obey the stated policies of Wikipedia and report on what the scientific community believes, rather than worrying about Wikipedia itself concluding anything (a violation of WP:OR). The scientific community unambiguously believes homeopathy to be pseudoscientific and false, and any article must reflect that. The talk page is not a forum to argue about this; we are only to report, with citations, what the actual authorities in the field have decided. And there is no lack of clarity there.Randy Blackamoor (talk) 13:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Please ignore Arion's baseless baiting and clear COI. Thankfully I don't recall suggesting that we ever call homeopathy a valid science. Do you agree with the statement of facts as written (free choice regarding the spiritual nature 'fact' that doesn't have much basis any more)? What about the suggestions on how to proceed with the article? LinaMishima (talk) 14:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply - I was just about to thank you for your well researched and reasonable suggestions, and then I read the unhelpful personal attack upon me: "baseless baiting and clear COI"!

• I know you were arguing against maintaining the "pseudoscience" category. I merely brought it up because the category is still there at this very moment, and that was the title of this section.
• Skeptics have used the tactic of questioning the ethics of homeopaths for years. That is no different than their other attacks upon health professionals in other specialties of complementary medicine. Placing this in the lead would be as wrong as placing it in the lead of articles on other health professions. Arion 3x3 (talk) 14:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I appologise, that was not the most diplomatic of wordings. Hopefully you can see how I reached the assumption of baiting, and the COI is an issue in this debate. But that does not excuse my wording. I appologise.

Given the wording of the statements of facts (that certain, meaning specific, homeopaths, are unethical), can I get a plain statement of agreement?

I shall go and find references for you regarding the ethics issue. I am afraid that calling the claims 'attacks' does not negate their documented nature. The sources I will no doubt find may seem biased, but judge the actions detailed, not the way those are presented. LinaMishima (talk) 14:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Less biased, highly reliable sources: BBC News, BBC News, BBC News, BBC News, BBC News, Letter to BMJ detailing brief study, Article in Nature (see the part regarding difficulty getting details of what is taught on homeopathy BSc courses)

Ben Goldcare's writings: Published in The Guardian, Published in The Guardian (legal threats to hosting company before rebuttals, corrections, dealing with author directly, etc), Published in The Guardian, Transcripts of the Malaria & homeopathy investigation

Other blogs (not fully RS, but worth noting in talk for the record): Homeopath turns to internet regarding cancer, More coverage of AIDS & Malaria issue, More on homeopathy and AIDS, Immunisations and disagreement between homeopathy organisations

I will agree that most of these document a single pair of recent cases, however this is what you would expect - it is always easier to source information for current events than those long past. The involvement with the MMR scandal is however a good example of a different ethical issue. The fact that homeopathic organisations cannot agree and fail to enforce their own rules is another key element that points to serious lapses in ethical judgements (Professional organisations should always enforce their rules). Perhaps the controversy is less outside of the UK, but here it is regularly reported. LinaMishima (talk) 15:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

But which one of these would you consider a RS for saying "Ethical problems in Homeopathy ..." Anthon01 (talk) 16:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding you comments, "Most homeopaths are not medical doctors." Is there any sourced data that confirms the percentage? We should consider not only if they are medical doctors but also other healthcare practitioners. IOW, what percentage of homeopaths are exclusively homeopaths. Also, "The problem with what you are saying is that it is simply not documented by the evidence that homeopaths are in general playing ball and acting ethically." The prevalence of this issue is important to determine also. We need sources to confirm the scope of the problem. Statements by homeopathic organizations should be considered as well. For instance a statement of standards published by a major homeopathic org that says we support the use of prep X as a sole therapeutic agent for malaria should be considered for inclusion; the converse should be considered as well.

One of the aspects missing in this discussion is lower vs. higher (>12c or 24x) dilutions. We need to address this issues separately. The science and plausibility of lower dilutions would be easier to accept than the higher dilutions. Homeopathy is in the process of evolving. Using RS, that should be reflected in the article as well. Their attempts to 'clean up' the practice, especially as more healthcare professionals add homeopathy to their therapeutic armament, should also be reflected in the article. Anthon01 (talk) 14:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I accept LinaMishima's apology, but I disagree that COI is an issue. You would want (but probably not get) someone that has experience in cardiovascular surgery to add imput in editing an article on Cardiovascular surgery. I would never try adding or changing the content of an article about Numismatics or Netherlands Antilles - about which I know very little. (I might do some simple editing to correct grammar or typos if I came across the article.) This article, as with all articles, should also have input from those who know something about the subject!

I disagree with bringing up the ethics issue in the lead. As I mentioned earlier, placing this in the lead would be as wrong as placing it in the lead of articles on other health professions.

Other than the ethics issue, I endorse the spirit of LinaMishima's suggestions. The specific details need to be worked out, such as my contention that research supporting homeopathy should not restricted to the point that positive results appear to be a fluke or due to laboratory mistakes. Of course, all research results, both postive and negative in all fields of science, can be affected by poor research design or procedural mistakes, or a host of others variables.

I hope to address the issues that are unique to homeopathy that need to be dealt with in the article. Unfortunately time constraints do not allow me to do that right now.

In response to Anthon01, I do not have percentage data you asked about. I believe that homeopathic organizations may be able to provide that information. As for potency levels, some homeopaths restrict themselves to only using the lower potencies, others use both lower and higher dilution levels. Arion 3x3 (talk) 15:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Just noting that in regards to the potential COI issue, I've put up a note at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Homeopathy. We can redirect all discussion of that there and try to clear up whether this presents any problem. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 18:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply: Seems to me that Lina's ideas are fine and would be a good goal to shoot for. If COI is an issue (seems to be) it needs to be addressed. Also denseness should be checked at the door. •Jim62sch• 18:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I am uncomfortable removing the category. Homeopaths present themselves as science. Science doesn't support their claims, yet, they still make them. Removal of the category would seem to be a sort of prescribed back room editor compromise on Wikipedia to make us (meaning every contributor pro & con, to this talk page) but is not in the interest of the reader. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

In return for removing the category, we reduce the prominence given to homeopathy's claims of being a science, so it's not all that bad. LinaMishima (talk) 19:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, being pseudoscience is determined (in part) by how they present themselves out in the real world, not how we present them on this wiki. In a perfect world, these things should work independantly. However, compromise might have to be made here. I'm just not sure what the best compromise is. --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 19:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

First, I have a real problem with compromise solutions that are based in conflict reduction for Wikipedia, and not based on the reliable sources, the real world, good writing and the interests of the reader. Second, I don't see a support for this compromise from the pro-homeopath side. They want the category gone, but don't seem to be flocking to a compromise solution. If we remove the category all we've done is betray our Wikipedian principles to lessen the shouting from a vocal fringe minority. Yuck. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Comment for SchmuckyTheCat: You do grok that WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience sets a specific threshold for categorization? With or without the category, all the scientific arguments and criticisms will stay. --Jim Butler^(talk) 03:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I endorse User:LinaMishima's proposal. I too would prefer to retain the pseudoscience category, but there does need to be some give and take, and all removing the category does is make Wikipedia slightly more difficult to navigate; it doesn't fundamentally compromise WP:NPOV, unlike some of what some editors have been seeking. I agree with Schmucky, though, that we shouldn't proceed with this compromise until we've gotten some signal that it will be respected by a majority of editors on all sides. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 20:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Unqualified endorse: Clearly quite a bit of consideration went into this, and it's a winner. I can't see any flaws here, at least nothing of significance (speaking as a generally science- and CAM-literate editor, and not as a homeopathy expert). Lina's proposal is one of the best I've read in a long time, clear on the details, appropriately broad in scope, and very much based in NPOV and VER. It never ceases to amaze me how much fine work people are willing to do for free on WP, and I encourage others here to recognize this window of opportunity for what it is. I've seen a few rounds of CAM article edits, and IMO, it's not going to get better than this: the article can only get more POVishly hyperskeptical or more POVishly advocate-y, either of which will induce a pendulum swing and more edit warring. Lina, hat's off to you! cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 03:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Outside view

I came here from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Homeopathy and expected to see a mess. In my view, Homeopathy is not bad.....I congratulate all the editors who have worked on this article. Sure, there is room for improvements, but I see there are hard-working editors here making good faith attempts to improve the article. Keep up the good work. I also see that there are some real POV warriors here who are making much noise but contributing little towards constructive editing. Some editors either need to take a break from this topic or else calm down and take a step away from belief that their "side" must win the edit war. My advice is that editing center on making >95% of the article be devoted to well-referenced description of the history and practice of homeopathy. This includes both critical scientific studies aimed at placing homeopathy into the perspective of conventional evidence-based medicine and on-going sympathetic attempts by alternative medical practitioners to find ways to assess what they view as the full complexity of their approach.....a complexity, and concern for individualization that is hard to fit into the rather limited structure of conventional scientific studies. I suggest that <5% of the article be devoted to the contentious debate topics that animate this discussion page. The criticisms of homeopathy must be included, but they cannot prevent Wikipedia readers from obtaining an understanding of the practice of homeopathy. Present the evidence in a clear fashion and then step back. "Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions". --JWSchmidt (talk) 06:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policies on undue weight and fringe theories make it explicitly clear that we are NOT to try to balance the findings of actual science with "alternative medicine" or what homeopaths have decided their "theory and practice" is (which keeps changing in order to sidestep criticisms, so cannot be pinned down) or other gobbledygook. Do the rules mean anything around here, or are we just going to get a parade of "uninvolved" editors who are suspiciously sympathetic to homeopathy arguing for yet another new set of rules for every single article? Randy Blackamoor (talk) 12:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that most "uninvolved" commentators are not basing their opinions on what the article should or should not contain on verifiable or reliable research. Rather they are presenting an opinion based on their own limited understanding and knowledge: a regrettable situation that has arisen on Wikipedia where people feel qualified to comment on articles without researching the content first. This just means we have to be extra dilligent in explaining this pseudoscience with impeccible sourcing and exquisite prose so that it is beyond any "uninvolved" reproach. Imagine something coming to intelligent design and saying, "The criticisms of intelligent design must be included, but they cannot prevent Wikipedia readers from obtaining an understanding of practice of intelligent design." Such a person would be dismissed out-of-hand as not being based on reliable, verifiable sourcing. We need an article so ironclad that we can dismiss such comments out-of-hand. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

...which is never going to happen if homeopaths can edit the article. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 13:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's sidestep the controversial stuff, and simply point out that any article that's currently locked down for a week, soon after having been locked down for several months, and I think there was another full protection in between the two must count as a mess. I think that it's actually far rarer for ANYONE to be able to edit it than for it to be unlocked of late.Adam Cuerden ^talk 14:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

undue weight. I'm not sure of the relevance of the comments from Randy about "undue weight" (above). If we were editing at AIDS#Treatment then we would be concerned about "undue weight" when we tried to decide how much to say about the use of homeopathic remedies for treating HIV infections...I think the AIDS and HIV articles get the balance between conventional treatments and homeopathy right (based on the available clinical evidence). However, Wikipedia readers who come to Homeopathy need to be provided with a factual description of the history and practice of homeopathy. The "findings of actual science" do not provide most of the material that can inform the Wikipedia reader about what constitutes the history and practice of homeopathy. Yes, part of the history and practice of homeopathy is shaped by "findings of actual science" and that influence must be described in the article. Again, I think the current version of the article gets the balance about right, although I think there is some room for improvement. Randy is free to feel that the practice of homeopathy is "gobbledygook", but such sentiments cannot be allowed to prevent us from providing Wikipedia readers with a full account of the practice of homeopathy. suspiciously sympathetic. My sympathies lie with the Wikipedia reader who deserves an informative article about homeopathy. The views of critics of homeopathy constitute only a small part of the story of homeopathy. I find it disturbing that a Wikipedia editor would be suspicious of a fellow editor who has only called for the Wikipedia Homeopathy article to continue to emphasize the history and practice of homeopathy. The expression of such suspicion suggests that there might be some alternative goal for some editors such as hijacking the Homeopathy article in an effort to turn it into Criticisms of homeopathy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JWSchmidt (talk • contribs) 17:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"The views of critics of homeopathy constitute only a small part of the story of homeopathy." Ludicrous! First of all, there is no factual way to describe what homeopathy actually is or how it is supposed to work from a credulous perspective, because the proposed mechanism for how homeopathy works is constantly changing in order to deflect criticism. On this talk page alone, there are 20 different ad-hoc explanations for how homeopathy is supposed to work. Second, the point of a page on something whose only real importance is as a scam is to talk about it as a scam--how it arises, why people believe it, what its legal status is. Talking about homeopathy as an actual medical practice would be like writing a page on Nazi racial theories devoted solely to a meticulous and uncritical recapitulation of Nazi racial theories and not making the effect of those theories on history the major focus. 128.172.158.104 (talk) 18:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, JWSchmidt (can I call you JWS), thanks for bringing a logical, rational and intelligent understanding of what this article is about. I agree with you that this article should describe what is and the history of Homeopathy. However, the one area of undue weight that we must not allow to happen is that the article makes any description that it actually works from a medical standpoint. If the Homeopathy promoters and believers want to make a description of a dilution that is essentially distilled water has any clinical effect, then undue weight requires us to place the huge bulk of references that state that it doesn't. That's where the problem arises. I agree a fork to Criticism of Homeopathy is a great idea, and it will shorten this article (I can grab a cup of coffee waiting for it to load). So, if the Homeopathy promoters are wiling to have an article that describes the history of it along with what it is, and include NO clinical effects of it, then we can move on with a short section on criticism, with most of it being moved to a POV fork. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The comment "people feel qualified to comment on articles without researching the content first" (above) seems at least partially directed at me and I take it as a failure on the part of ScienceApologist to assume good faith. I've edited Wikipedia for enough years to shrug off and not take personally such non-constructive talk page commentary, but I find it disturbing that any new participant at a Wikipedia talk page discussion would be "greeted" with such a lack of good faith. ScienceApologist, you have no understanding of the depth of my knowledge and experience on this topic. Your apparent effort to label me as ignorant and poorly informed seems motivated by your an over-ridding desire to push your personal biases and POV. Such "greetings" seem characteristic of editors who are self-conscious about the nature of their POV pushing and who over-compensate by having to attack anyone who is not on their "side". Are you trying to imply that Wikipedia cannot include information on any topic that is not supported by "research". What kind of research are you talking about? The policies you link to are about the kind of research into sources that all Wikipedians engage in, but the tone of your comment seems to suggest that you would prefer that scientific research results determine the content of Wikipedia articles. Are you trying to suggest that Wikipedia cannot describe alternative medical practices unless scientific research shows them to meet some standard of efficacy? Are you trying to say that if a subject includes pseudoscientific elements then Wikipedia no longer has an obligation to write an article that fully informs the reader about the topic....we are in some way to stop, put up a sign that says "pseudoscience" and say our work is done? Please explain exactly what you are trying to say because your comments sound like you are only interested in placing the label "pseudoscience" on homeopathy rather than providing a neutral article that describes the full complexity of the subject. --JWSchmidt (talk) 18:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure that you haven't engaged this editor before? The sign goes up at the front door, before the reader gets a chance to be invited in. Anthon01 (talk) 18:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue is not that it is an alternative medical practice, but that many sources and supporters insist that it is a scientific one, a definition which carries a certain weight to it and requires certain methods to be followed, which homeopathy in general does not do and is well documented as such. Acupuncture, Hydrotherapy, Reflexology, and Reiki do not claim to be sciences at all, unlike homoepathy. Even if we avoid calling homeopathy a science, we do run the risk of readers making assumptions based upon its obvious trappings of science, such as the concept of homeopathic proving. That is why I have suggested downplaying such material, so that false assumptions are not made. The general article as it stands is in a reasonable state, however I would like to see an expanded history, a reduction in the length of detail regarding preparation and provings, more focus on the non-remedy parts of treatment, and a better ethics section. Some material from the current science section may be moved to more appropriate sections, the two research sections can also be combined and shortened but also talk of the value of placebo effect added.

Please remember that the whole big debate here has been over simply the category, an infobox, and the wording of the lead. Regarding the lead section, it is intended to be a summary of the entire material present, and as such efficacy and ethics will need to be mentioned as these are real aspects of the subject at hand. LinaMishima (talk) 18:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• for the editor from "128.172.158.104": Is your proposal that most of the history and practice sections in the Homeopathy article be removed, basically just leaving a statement saying that homeopathy is a medical scam? --JWSchmidt (talk) 18:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"the one area of undue weight that we must not allow to happen is that the article makes any description that it actually works from a medical standpoint" <-- I'm in favor of basing claims for efficacy on published evidence. --JWSchmidt (talk) 18:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Published by who? Homeopathic journals post all positive papers, many of which rely on anectodal evidence. "It works because my patients feel better!" is not science, yet it is a claim of efficacy in published evidence. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Note that there is nothing wrong in stating that it makes patients feel better, that is of course a good thing. Medical efficacy (as opposed to perhaps spiritual or some form of happiness efficacy) should be defined by the same measure that the medical industry uses (or should use) - quality trials in peer-reviewed journals. LinaMishima (talk) 19:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"Homeopathic journals post all positive papers" isn't true. I'm with you JWS. A number of well meaning editors, I suspect unknowingly, use WP:OR to support their positions. I also think your recommendation that the article needs to be about homoepathy first. Anthon01 (talk) 19:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"How big is the problem of publication bias in alternative medicine? Well now, in 1995, only 1% of all articles published in alternative medicine journals gave a negative result. The most recent figure is 5% negative. This is very, very low." http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/nov/16/sciencenews.g2 SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Proposal to improve things

I think before this becomes any worse, we need to come up with some rules of engagement, considered widely by the entire community interested in these things. Adam Cuerden proposed an Arbcomm ruling, which might not happen at this writing, by all appearances. As an alternative, I suggest that we consider convening a mediation and work on forging a Memorandum of Understanding or comparable document that all can sign on to, and then display as evidence of community consensus on homeopathically related article talk pages. Editors arguing tendentitiously and disruptively against the MoU would then be subject to normal administrative penalties. Hopefully we could come to some agreement and compromise about how to handle this situation so we can all be productive instead of fighting each other.--Filll (talk) 19:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

That was exactly what I was trying for when I proposed that people all find in agreement of the following statements of fact:

• There is significant evidence for the use of the term pseudoscience
• In general, the weight of evidence is that there is little to no evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy beyond placebo
• Some reasonable studies do exist that suggest homeopathy has or might have an effect beyond placebo
• The method of action of homeopathy if it does work is not plausable within the current understanding of science
• Regardless of how homeopathic remedies may or may not work, extended patient contact combined with a strong placebo effect (on top of or in place of any actual effect) are good things that have real benefit to a patient
• Various homeopathic organisations claim to be 'scientific'
• A few organisations also talk about more spiritual aspects of homeopathy and how it can cause spiritual healing as well as physical
• Homeopathy exists as a CAM
• Homeopathy has a strong and interesting history
• Homeopathy exists within modern culture and does benefit some people (regardless of how it benefits)
• Homeopathy currently is criticised for the poor ethics of certain homeopaths

At the time I considered these a fair mix of scientifically accurate points and those which respected the value that homeopathy does have within the modern world and understanding of the history of medicine. You will note that this list is a little refined compared to the previous posting. I think the above list may serve as a basis for an agreement of shared understanding. LinaMishima (talk) 20:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be willing to sign that list, but I don't see what good it's going to do. --Art Carlson (talk) 20:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

By everyone agreeing to a list of facts, we gain a common ground to work from and hopefully we can stop debating the contents of the list (which we do a lot) and focus the debate upon the article itself. Plus, having us all agree on something, anything would be a nice change :P LinaMishima (talk) 20:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd sign up to it. I do have a reservation about the "extended contact" point though. I don't think it's good to lie to or mislead patients, even if it makes them feel better. Professional medical doctors in the UK certainly aren't aloud too. But this is a pedantic point, as your point doesn't mention claiming it will help for any reason other than positive belief. So, in a roundabout way, yes I agree to all the points. Misleading patients is probably under ethics anyway, and left out of other sections to get most support - and that's probably a good thing. A mention of the significant body of evidence showing no effect beyond placebo is probably going to cause pro-homs to not sign, despite it being true (Edit Conflict) --DrEightyEight (talk) 20:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that you are saying, but that can be dealt with elsewhere, it really is an ethical issue. It is my hope that the acknowledgement of some positive results will help them feel included within these statements of fact. LinaMishima (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Really, this should be "*Homeopathy ... appears to benefit some people (regardless of how it benefits)" -- this would include perceived or inferred psychological benefits. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Psychology is the basis, as I understand it, of the patient placebo effect (rather than the reviewer placebo effect, the expectation in a reviewer of data of good results), and the placebo effect does cause measurable changes. That is why I selected that wording, since it is basically/generally/effectively true, and it is more likely to win the support of the pro-homeopaths in this form. LinaMishima (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No, sorry, but that's OR. There's no such thing as spiritual healing, so if you want that POV in there, it's back to arguing. CAM doesn't exist, that's just terminology non-scientists use to insist that it is medicine and science (kind of like Creation Science. So all that is being proposed is how to get Homeopathy promoter's POV placed in the article. Thanks, but really, we've been down that path. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 22:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

BUT, everything else you propose is outstanding. Delete the garbage about faith, CAM and placebo effects, and I'm on board. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 22:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about anything spiritual. I was referring to nothing more than the Placebo effect and Counseling with the line regarding those benefits (and as you know, those are real and do make a difference). The other line regarding homeopathy's spiritual claims are claims that some organisations actually make (and are obviously not medical claims). CAM has to be mentioned because that is homeopathy's official designation, however much some people may prefer 'Quackery' for all such things. We cannot declare them otherwise, sadly, without being OR, but we can point out the claims of pseudoscience. LinaMishima (talk) 22:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

<undent>As I stated below, I accept some of these, agree wholeheartedly with others, and am doubtful about some. For example, my biggest concern is that homeopathy can do harm in that it can stop some people from seeking appropriate medical treatment in a timely way for some time-critical problems. I have other misgivings about this list as well, as it is worded, in a "take it all or leave it all" approach. Sorry. --Filll (talk) 21:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

In addition, when I read it benefiting "some people" I immediately think of the homeopath who is prospering from prescribing a medication that is essentially water.--Filll (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The harm you talk about is an ethical issue, not one with respect to homeopathic practice done in accordance to most homeopathic organisation's guidelines. So your worry will be covered, however as part of the ethical problems present. LinaMishima (talk) 22:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not so sure that it is a matter of ethics, but more a matter of ignorance. They think they are doing something good for the patient, but maybe in some cases they are not.--Filll (talk) 22:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you should clarify this statement "There is significant evidence for the use of the term pseudoscience," as Art, Jim Butler, myself and others or as per someone else. We all agree that it fits under Questionable science based on RS. Please clarify this statement. Anthon01 (talk) 23:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I very much agree. We still haven't seen a source which satisfies WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience in terms of calling Homeopathy a "pseudoscience". This term can and is too easily misused for us to treat it any lighter than the criteria which the ArbCom has laid out for us. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

How would something like "Critics of homeopathy commonly refer to it as a pseudoscience", coupled with a "Homeopathy's claim to be a science is generally questionable at best" and "Some researchers into homeopathic techniques are attempting to apply proper scientific methods" work for you two? We have strong evidence for all three of these. LinaMishima (talk) 00:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

"Some critics of homeopathy" and "Researchers in homeopathic techniques are attempting to apply proper scientific methods" sounds fine. I would have to see references for "Homeopathy's claim to be a science is generally questionable at best" Anthon01 (talk) 00:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Most of the sources of criticism we have detailed here also go into at least passing detail of the failings of homeopathy, and some certainly go much further. It should be noted that for those who know the scientific method well (and hence best able to judge this), it is a trivial act to notice homeopathy's failings, and as such they are rarely published in depth. Such a statement is non-negotiable, as there is plenty of evidence. Rather than dispute this here (as that would only antagonise), let other editors who support this view attempt to find the evidence first. LinaMishima (talk) 00:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I am well versed in the scientific method and recognize areas where the research falls short, but still insisting that no OR is included in the list. If it's not in the source we can't make it up. Additionally, the references on ethics you cited before do not use the word ethics. If we can't find that explicitly stated the word ethics should not be used. If a RS is found for either of these and no OR is required then I am in support of its inclusion. Anthon01 (talk) 00:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

"Falls short" is a massive understatement. Ethics is also the appropriate grouping title for all those sources, for it is obviously the common combining factor between them. And I know for certain that some of those documents distinctly did talk of ethics and ethical problems. The below link certainly does. LinaMishima (talk) 00:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm still hoping other editors will trawl through sources to help out here, but I have one detailed listing so far by the respected Ben Goldcare [24] "[P]ushing their product relentlessly with this scientific flim-flam" (flim-flam, literally deception). Please do not take this quote at face value, read the article and how he carefully details before this point the practices of homeopaths in comparison to clinical doctors. LinaMishima (talk) 00:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Your or my estimation of Homeopathy's research shortfalls doesn't count. If the sources say it then we are fine. I also went through the BBC links and didn't find one mention of the word ethic. Anthon01 (talk) 01:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the sources are documenting the research shortfalls well, and similarly [25] "most scientists scoff at current homeopathic practices" (scoff, "Treat with contemptuous disregard"). What would you call what the BBC articles document , then? LinaMishima (talk) 01:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

From the talk archives we have [26] (which calls homeopathy a pseudoscience, which means questionable claim to being a science), [27] "from a methodological standpoint, homeopathy has a number of serious flaws", [28] "The deviation from basic scientific principles, which is implicit in homeopathy and therapeutic touch, for example, is decried." (A highly respected journal), [29] "homeopathic therapy is not scientifically justifiable". I really could go on and on and on, this matter has been extremely well documented now on the talk page. LinaMishima (talk) 01:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggesting a mediator

Well we need a mediator and we need to collect input from all sides. We can use this list as a start, and our statements at the RfAr as input material. We need comparable lists from the homeopathy proponents. Then we need to have a neutral party sit down and help us work through all the material and forge some sort of Memorandum.

• For example, how many homeopathy paragraphs incorporated into biographies, and articles on plants, and minerals and chemicals and animals are appropriate?

• What exactly does NPOV mean and how should it be applied?

• What exactly does LEAD mean?

• What sort of sources are reliable sources? How should they be weighted?

We need all these sorts of things answered and agreed to, or else this will be an infinite argument.--Filll (talk) 20:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I have split this off into a subsection, as I would like to gain agreement to the above list and I don't think having this as a direct part of that discussion helps. With respect to your points, the first one is irrelevant here entirely, as it relates to other articles. The second and third relate to all the dispute we have been having, but we might be able to avoid deep debate over these things as long as everyone remains calm, understanding and accepting (I don't think they are actually being debated, but rather often it is the facts at hand that are the subject of discussion). Similarly with the last point, we can agree on how to use reliable sources by using the most appropriate ones for the subject at hand.

Let's see were we can get to without getting bogged down with these sorts of issues again, shall we? LinaMishima (talk) 21:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. And along those lines, lets set up a voting structure for the points you list so we can see who signs on and who does not, with a simple 'Accept or Reject if at all possible, and then separate the discussion into another area.--Filll (talk) 21:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

File me in the accept column (not that I've been the most active of editors on this page, mind you). Sarcasticidealist (talk) 21:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

We should note that Fill is suggesting indivual votes on each point, rather than the set as a whole. However I shall keep in mind your opinion of the statements. LinaMishima (talk) 21:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's give it some time for a few more responses first. Additionally, requiring acceptance as a group or as a set of groups would be better than individual approval or disapproval of each one. The set was designed to be approved a set, with certain points being paired with others, and other points being present to reduce the perceived impact of the list for certain people. If there is any individual point you disagree with, please let me know. LinaMishima (talk) 21:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry by the time you posted this I had already completed the strawpoll. The problem is, I agree with some of your points, and not so much with others. So it is a bit problematic. I expect for homeopathy proponents it will be even tougher to accept the whole thing.--Filll (talk) 21:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

That is why it is a collection of points that work together to form the whole. I see your problems were with the existance of some evidence, and with the benefits of the placebo effect. The claims of evidence are mostly with respect to the animal studies Arion 3x3 posted earlier, and I had to accept these in general. In contrast to this point, however, is the stronger statement regarding the weight of evidence being against any effect. I believe that pairing to be an accurate reading of NPOV and WEIGHT, and neither side has their evidence ignored or discounted. As for the benefits of the placebo effect, those are actually matters that some critics like Ben Goldcare stress - that homeopathy is wonderful for having longer patient appointments and causes a good placebo effect. The evidence is there for these points, so we should concede them. It's a good method when negotiating to find such common ground. I agree, of course, that I don't know if the homeopathy supporters will actually accept this list, but I have tried to accommodate them and praise appropriately. We can but hope. LinaMishima (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This is moving dangerously toward an editorial method in which consensus is replaced by voting. Naturezak (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No it isn't. It's moving towards a system in which we

1. evaluate the possibility of achieving consensus on a set of starting points, and

2. achieve a consolidated and succinct list of where editors are coming from at this point. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 21:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

As Sarcasticidealist states, this is not about voting on the article, but agreeing on a common ground to work from. If someone disagreed with a point and was not happy at compromising via having the other points also present, I would work with them to try and find another acceptable wording for everyone. LinaMishima (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no common ground, unfortunately. As long a there are the promoters who "believe" or attempt to convince us that anything based on faith can be "proved", then we aren't going to get anywhere. According to every section and subjection about NPOV, we can put about 300KB of data about how Homeopathy is junk medicine, and maybe a couple of kb on the history. That would be neutral and not give undue weight to Homeopathy promoters. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 22:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you support the list, though? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 22:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I have specifically avoided voting on anything here. Verifiability, notability, NPOV, undue weight, fringe theories, all can be confirmed with verification. No vote is necessary. This is a bit of pushing us into something that isn't going to work. We'll still argue about what is science, what is faith, etc. So, no I don't support the 1RR above, I don't support arbitration or mediation, etc. I support verifiability, NPOV, etc. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 23:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The list needs to define specific things of disagreement with the current text. Those are the points we can work on, and may not be very long. I mean, there are pretty obviously two camps here. What problems with the article do the anti-homeopaths see? Or is it just a bulwark defense of what is there now? What specific criticisms do the homeopaths provide? Looking backwards, I see lots of words but nothing specific except "MAN THE WHOLE THINGS IS BIASED!!" We can't answer that and it's not constructive. If the list amounts to "don't put in a pseudoscience category, and can we do XX verbiage in this location" then we can move forward. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I agree with OrangeMarlin: there isn't any need for voting here. The problem with the editing of this article, in the six months I have been monitoring it, is that sensible edits are reverted by individuals with COI, and that attempts to secure consensus for those edits afterwards are drowned in discussion by individuals with COI. Naturezak (talk) 23:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

So what's your solution? By which I mean "what should good faith editors and admins do to fix these problems?" Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The whole idea of getting an agreed statement of facts was so that once people had agreed to it, discussions could not be drowned out with disagreements which are covered in the statement of facts. I cannot predict how well it would work, but it does give greater leverage over disruptive members, as their disruption is clearer. LinaMishima (talk) 00:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I have my doubts, but Lina has made an admirable effort to concisely review and summarize objective data and various POV. Those of you who expressing doubt, do you agree to the list she has made? If not please specify the specific item(s) you have a problem with. Otherwise, even if we could get most editors to agree on some basics, it would provide common ground to work from. Anthon01 (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

We could take a cue from the Evolution, Intelligent Design (both are FA's) and their assorted articles and just immediatly remove all nonsense. Seems to work very well over there, for the most part. Baegis (talk) 02:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

In other words, you assert that adherents and practitioners of homeopathy are no more rational than the nuts who reject evolution or who promote intelligent design. The trouble is, homeopathy really does have a significant following, including a fairly large minority of doctors who practice it, legally, and with a somewhat satisfied clientelle, in the US and other countries. No matter how much the established medical community doesn't like them, and no matter how much scientists deride their theories as being unsupportable by controlled scientific experiments, they still do find reason to believe in and respect the methods of homeopathy. This article should be first about their beliefs and methods, and only secondarily about how science and medicine criticise it. I'm not a believer or adherent myself, but I know people who are, and they are not the kind of nuts you are saying they are. In addition, they do have a credible case in their claims that their methods are not being given a fair test at the hands of their opponents (see for example the opening article of this journal: http://www.liebertonline.com/toc/acm/11/5). I think a more logical approach here would be to treat the topic more like the way religions are treated; we don't put scientific debunking into the leads of Islam and Christianity; we describe them more or less in their own terms, and then discuss their relationships to other parts of the world of ideas, beliefs, poliitcs, etc. The fact that they are not scientifically sensible, even when their adherents believe them to be totally true, is not very relevant, since they don't really connect very well to the methods of scientific inquiry. I know homeopathy is trying to view themselves as more scientific, and that's worth commenting on, but not a reason to treat them as total nuts. Let's make it more like an article on homeopathy in any other encyclopedia, and focus on what it is before getting off on what it's not. Dicklyon (talk) 02:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

not only that but i and the toher adherents to homeoopaty on this page have repeatedly agreed to withdraw some ouf our main points of ocntention (the psuedoscience tag and the psuedoscience box) to the allopaths in a bid to normalize relationships and i have noticed that our attempts at reconciliation have been repeatedly mocked and ignored. it is very hard to achieve consensus when everyone here is intent on prolonging the negatigve debate as long as humanly possible. Smith Jones (talk) 03:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Heh, "Allopaths" presumably this means "All editors here who believe in NPOV"? Shot info (talk) 03:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Please do not use made-up derogatory terms like "allopaths" in an attempt to delegitimize rational, pro-science people.03:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy Blackamoor (talk • contribs)

It is not derogatory.[30] Anthon01 (talk) 04:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that in this entire discussion section the supporters of evidence-based science have been entirely accommodating and generally willing to show compromise by agreeing to the points listed, whilst those who prefer their flim-flam (to quote Ben Goldcare) have mostly attempted to pick further holes in their favour. LinaMishima (talk) 04:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Flim-Flam is derogatory. You should consider refactoring. Focus on EBM is largely a new phenomenon even in medicine. Next, I don't see how advocates of homeopathy have attempted to pick further holes in their favor. Additionally I think dicklyon is making some very good points as to the tone and content of the article. Anthon01 (talk) 04:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Firstly, I never compared the people who practice homeopathy to any intelligent design or creation proponents. I was merely suggesting that we take an approach that has clearly worked and apply it here. And with regards to the following of homeopathy, I would stake a large wager as to the fact that more people believe in creationism or intelligent design than practice or follow homeopathy. Have you ever seen a poll about the number of people that believe in creationism or intelligent design? I bet you that homeopathy doesn't have anywhere near these numbers. Secondly, it doesn't matter how the general public feels about the article. We don't tailor articles to what the general public believes. We make articles so that they fall within policies. The applicable policies here are WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE, and WP:UNDUE. And yes, it is relevent that they are not scientifically sensible and that their theories do not connect to science. It is claimed to be a science (or a type of medicine) and must be evaluated from that standpoint, least undue weight is placed upon it. I take great offense that you would compare this to a religion and say it should be covered as such. How far out of left field did that come from? Baegis (talk) 03:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, when you said "We could take a cue from the Evolution, Intelligent Design (both are FA's) and their assorted articles and just immediatly remove all nonsense" it was pretty transparent that you meant any statement implying a belief in the reality of homeopathy was analogous to a belief in things like creationism. I think that betrays a very clear POV, and that's why this article has such a hard time converging. You want the article to reflect primarily the POV of the detractors from the topic, rather than just describing the topic on its own terms. I think NPOV calls for a different balance. Look at the comment by User:Shot info above, for example; he thinks it's NPOV versus homeopathy; that's just stupid. Dicklyon (talk) 04:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, if he's not willing to say it, I will. Any believe in the reality of homeopathy is exactly equivalent to a belief in creationism, with all the dishonesty, disconnect from reality, and completely malevolent influence on society that holding such a belief implies. People who believe in either creationism or homeopathy are WRONG, by definition cannot be acting in good faith or be intelligent, and have no place editing any encyclopedia which purports to be a compendium of facts. If you think being told that your obviously incorrect beliefs are incorrect constitutes a "personal attack," then you need to get new beliefs.Randy Blackamoor (talk) 05:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It's no problem at all that you feel that way; many people do. What's a problem is when you edit wikipedia articles from that POV. There's no balance there, and no respect for the topic you're writing about. So leave it. Dicklyon (talk) 05:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• cough* Thats a LOOOOOOOOOOGN stretch and completely wrong. Shot info (talk) 04:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You would be best served by rereading the policies pages. And perhaps trying to read statements before jumping to conclusions. But you are right, we totally shouldn't adopt a policy that has lead to two extremely contentious (even more so than this) topics to be promotted to featured article status. Lets keep up this mess! Baegis (talk) 04:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Dicklyon, it doesn't help when you write things like "homeopathy really does have a significant following" and "fairly large minority of doctors". That absolutely does not find favor with real life data. In the US, homeopaths reported almost five million visits from patients in a year, versus over one billion patient visits for normal medicine, less than half a percent. Other data says homeopathic treatments were sought out by about 2% of the public (that is - all treatments, like OTC treatments on the store shelf). Those are not significant nor large minority. We have here a few very vocal believers. The makeup of belief on this talk page is not at all representative of the real world. 2% is a smaller number than believe the moon landings were hoaxed! Please don't misrepresent how fringe this is, or, if you're new to looking at this issue, don't be taken in by uncollaborated statements like "homeopathy really does have a significant following". SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

If you want to consider 5 million patient visits insignificant, that's your trip. I realize it's not big, though at one time in America it was close to 1 doctor in 6 that was a homeopath, according to some books I've consulted; in India it's still about there. I don't think I believe your numbers about people who believe the moon landings were faked; at least, I've never met one of those. Dicklyon (talk) 05:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Five million is insignificant compared to one billion. "A 1999 poll by the The Gallup Organization found that 89 percent of the US public believed the landing was genuine, while 6 percent did not and 5 percent were undecided." That's referenced data according to our own article. Those are the numbers. Claiming homeopathy has more support, or calling it significant, is sympathetic bias on your own behalf - not what we base Wikipedia articles on. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Goodbye

For what feels like an eternity I have been attempting to help make some progress here. Some people in support of science have acted foolishly, never willing to move towards a compromise, believing in evidence-only articles, and have been wound up and baited no end into acting in a less-than-friendly manner. Others in support of science have been willing to debate, discuss and reach a compromise. Whilst those in support of homeopathy, something that claims to be a science, can only really be described as often acting like fundamentalists, attempting to tear-down any counter-point and hammer hard on anyone who dares to mention the impossibility of the technique. When they hit a statement that they cannot manage to construct a solid defence to, they then turn to literal interpretation of policies rather than the spirit of them, or far more commonly they simply ignore or change the subject. Rarely have I ever seen them willing to openly concede a point. This extremely hard line approach has actually given me bad dreams, for I am a rational person who is quite frankly disturbed when people act so irrationally.

This subject has spilled over into far too many places, and that is everyone's fault. Why people are debating the efficacy of homeopathy on an article about plants is beyond me. Source it, consider the relative weights and be done. A massive discussion has emerged on the user talk page of a homeopathic writer, and even though they are allowing it, it seems to be not entirely fair on them for both sides to have appropriated his talk page like that. My own talk page then became involved, with a suggestion that I watch some Richard Feynman lectures on Quantum Electrodynamics as someone thought these would somehow make a possible origin of homeopathy's workings clear. When I did as they suggested and pointed out how crazy they were to see anything usable there (as someone who has studied physics at UK first year undergrad levels, and electrical engineering to full bachelor level, including Fourier analysis, both at Russell Group institutions), they made it clear that their hope was only to convert, not to discuss the actual science. And now I have a discussion about how we can't call a clear and obvious spade a spade and a demand for sources for trivial observations.

In the previous discussion of my attempt to find some common ground, those who are in favour the scientific method generally would agree to the compromise, albeit with some reservations. The supporters of homeopathy, however, were quick to decide that they could do without certain lines being present, and requested change. This was accommodated, but once again the bar was then either nudged up, or the attempt to meet the new bar ignored or taken elsewhere in an attempt to avoid the evidence. Other supporters decided now would be a great time again to both state that they are not like religious nuts at all but want to be treated like a religious or spiritual subject. That would be wonderful and a brilliant route I would approve of, if only so many various homeopathic organisations and training courses did not claim to be scientific and implicitly not spiritual.

I present to you my final attempt at wording a statement of fact. The evidence is scattered throughout the talk page and the archives for all these points, and is generally strong and clear. I am afraid that the wording of some has became more harsh, but still within the evidence we have. I am not willing to be so compromising any more, you have had your chance and wasted it:

• Critics of homeopathy commonly refer to it as a pseudoscience
• Homeopathy is regularly claimed to be a science and scientific, including by most notable homeopathic organisations
• A few organisations also talk about more spiritual aspects of homeopathy and how it can cause spiritual healing as well as physical
• Homeopathy's claim to be a science is generally questionable at best and fraudulent at worst
• Homeopathy is widely based off research conducted without the proper scientific method being followed
• Some researchers into homeopathic techniques are attempting to apply proper scientific methods
• In general, the vast weight of evidence is that there is little to no evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy beyond placebo
• Some reasonable studies do exist that suggest homeopathy has or might have an effect beyond placebo
• The method of action of homeopathy if it does work is not remotely plausible within the current understanding of science
• Regardless of how homeopathic remedies may or may not work, extended patient contact combined with a strong placebo effect (on top of or in place of any actual effect) are good things that have real measurable benefits to a patient
• Homeopathy exists as a Complementary and alternative medicine
• Homeopathy has a strong and interesting history
• Homeopathy exists within modern culture and does benefit some people (regardless of how it benefits)
• Homeopathy currently is criticised for the poor ethics of certain homeopaths

It is possible that some of these points could be toned down, but that will not be through me. I have had it with this subject that has been causing me bad dreams. I doubt this discussion has been much fun for anyone. I realised tonight that life is not about what is not fun, and so I am leaving this discussion. My continuing presence on wikipedia will only be for the sake of the episodes and fictional works discussions, which must be resolved suitably before I will feel comfortable editing any articles here again. I do not care for debate over what I have written here. I understand that you may not like the 'accusations', but they are documented and evident in the previous discussions on the page. Any back-peddling, denial or criticism of these observations will simply be ignored by myself. It should be apparent that I believe that the evidence here shows that no serious discussion is ever actually intended. You may get the last word, but I will still win - for I will be elsewhere, actually enjoying myself and making things of real value happen. I do not wish to be contacted or bothered about this discussion again. I apologise for doing this to those who have acted reasonably and with knowledge of science, especially to Sarcasticidealist and RDOlivaw and doubly so for what I am about to request. If any of my points within any part of this discussion need clarification, I ask that Sarcasticidealist and RDOlivaw be allowed to do so. I trust their views, and their collective opinion is to be my final word. If desired, they may offer a more neutral toned version of the above list, for it was edited in the heat of the moment. They may contact me regarding this, but I request that no-one does. This subject has caused me too much harm as it is, and I wish to withdraw now before further damage is done to well-being that no amount of shaken water could ever fix. LinaMishima (talk) 04:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I can only say that similar frustrations have limited my interest in trying to continue my relatively short-lived and ultimately rendered-ineffectual attempts at brokering compromise and improvement on this page. Thank you, Lina, for putting a lot of effort into this. — Scientizzle 05:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

For what its worth, I think we should accept her latest list unmodified. Someone should simply expand it into an adequately sized article using the material already there. and then we sensible people can join in trying to keep it. Strange. Before i came to WP , I had quite a lot of experience arguing with bigots about science. They were defenders of such ideas as homeopathy, creationism, psychic phenomena, and related follies. I could at least understand why they were unable to resort to rational argument, as the views were in fact not rationally defensible. But it was interesting figuring it out from a sociological point of view why people would believe such things. I know many people who have various delusions and it does not affect their moral worth as people. But I came here, and i found the worst bigots were the ones of the rational side of the arguments. They were arguing as if nobody would believe scientific evidence if it were fairly presented, as if the only way to show ignorance for what it is was to suppress it, or at least give it only a little space and then paste labels over it. Everything I know about the world convinces me of the correctness of the scientific world view and the validity of its methods of argument. Everything I know about people convinces me that the least effective way to support a good cause is to act as if it needed to be imposed on an unwilling audience by force. The reason I avoid this argument (except for brief forays) is like Lisa's. I cannot tolerate watching good people who know science and who want to defend it making fools of themselves. There must be something about WP which causes people to take extreme positions--perhaps it's BRD. It brings out the worst in uncooperative editing. An approach at giving a reasonable approach to writing an article on a subject like this collectively seems to generally get rejected. those who care about rational medicine should try to write this article as Lina suggested, because such an article, being the plain truth, is what will persuade people. The believers in homeopathy will believe as they do regardless. Those who come here for information will get accurate information, and will be able to see how weak the non-scientific arguments are even when they are optimally presented. That's what will convince people if they're rational. If they aren't, nothing can help them -- except having the arguments calmly set out here if they ever want to actually listen. DGG (talk) 05:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)