Talk:Earthsea

Etymology of Éa

I have a problem with this line: (The name Éa is coincidentally similar to J. R. R. Tolkien's "Eä".) It's not coincidental; they are both derived from the indo-european root word Ea, meaning Dawn. However, I'm not sure how to fix this without unnecessary explanation. The name Éa derives from the same root as J. R. R. Tolkien's "Eä", an Indo-European root word for dawn

I've replaced the sentence with "The name Éa derives from the same root as J. R. R. Tolkien's "Eä", an Indo-European root word for dawn". It's nearly double the length but it doesn't seem excessive to me. 60.225.160.189 03:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

This is, without reservation, completely false on both accounts. RandomCritic 14:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The deity Ea pre-dates Tolkien's work by a long stretch. Ea was a water god in Babylonian mythology, and also considered a father-figure god, much as Zeus was "father" to the other Greek gods, even when he wasn't literally their father. Just to note, the Babylonians were not Indo-Europeans. KateH 15:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Earthsea rules

earthsea rulesVera Cruz

Putting an accent on Ea

How do I put an Accent on Ea? -- Daran

You mean like Éa --Astrokey44 14:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Miniseries

The SciFi Channel (I assume US but I'm not sure) are apparently making a TV version: where should this go? --Phil | Talk 16:24, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

I just took a stab at it here, under the heading "other media". The Skiffy Channel's adaptation is apparently to be called "Earthsea" tout court, so perhaps it's best here (with a link or at least a nod from A Wizard of Earthsea?) I hope I wasn't too disparaging in what I wrote, but the quick look I just gave the official site depressed me immensely. –Hajor 17:44, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Back in July someone added an entry to the Wikipedia about the miniseries. I found that entry today along with a request for it to be cleaned up, which I have now done. To avoid being biased I updated the information present in that entry to also detail that Le Guin was not involved in the production of the greatly altered Earthsea stories in any way. -- Kenguest 01:31, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

The race issue

This will probably make everyone hate me, but...
I have never seen the skin colours in Earthsea as reflecting the racial issues in the real world. I've always felt that having the majority, including the main protagonist and hero, black-skinned is just a fresh new twist. Just because most of the people in the Western world are white-skinned doesn't mean most of the people in fantasy worlds have to be. They can be any colour the author likes. But I have never seen this as a statement against oppression in real life.
Sure, I understand why UKL is angry at the folks who made the Sci-Fi channel TV movie. I'd be pissed as hell too if they changed a black character into a white one. I'd also be pissed if they changed a white character into a black one. But this is purely because I think the author has the right to define his/her character, not because I think blacks are any better or worse than whites. — JIP | Talk 15:36, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

While your opinion is your own, I'm afraid Le Guin herself disagrees with you. A Frankenstein's Earthsea notes that she started with the premise of having the protagonists brown and the minority characters white specifically because it is rarely this way in most other novels - think about it, when's the last time you read a novel that didn't have a white protagonist? And by casting the way they did ("colorblind", which often means having a white protagonist with non-white support, because of systemic unequal opportunities in Hollywood itself) they essentially destroyed her premise. Also note that race isn't the only thing she complains about - she complains about the watering down of much of messages in the novel, thereby turning it into a generic fantasy. --ColourBurst 05:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I never said there could not be any race issue behind the setting of the books. It's just that I never saw one there. JIP | Talk 17:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

JIP, I agree with you, I also never saw this race message Le Guin was trying to communicate. I suppose this is only because I have just recently read these books and i am 22 so have been used to anti-racism for most of my memory. We all have to remember when Le Guin actually wrote this series, things were very different back then and those memories and values may still stand with her today. As to what ColourBurst is saying, its just as Le Guin has said many times over, as an Author one has very little control over what is done to their work. Unfortunate really but true.

I also have another point to make which reflects on a lot of people's ignorance (mine included) "God created man in his own image". Most of us do exactly that. If I'm white living in a white dominant society, my imaginery characters will quite likely be white, like me. It's unresearched to say that novels with a non-white protagonist rarely exist, this statement is only true in a white society. I think i can assure everyone that in a non-white dominant country, say, India, they have novels with non-white protagonists aplenty! After all, Jesus is full blooded African in Africa. And Jesus could not possibley have been Caucasian because he was Israeli, the Romans remade him in their own image.

So just to conclude my rant, in a fictional piece of work having a non-white dominant world nowadays is probably quite unremarkable seeing as whites are still a smaller population ratio in the world. But for back when the novel was written, Le Guin was pretty damned brave and this also reflects on a how non-judgemental she is! She's quite something!

PS, I have read a couple of the books in Tad Williams' Otherland series. The main character is Irene, an African woman. Supporting character is a native African Bushman. Quite a good read if a little difficult to digest! TheTragicUglyDuckling 21:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

If you don't understand why the race issue is important in Earthsea, read the following: Ursula's links to articles on Earthsea and race -- Pay particular attention to "The Shame of Earthsea" by Pam Noles.

This is not about a "race message" as such, other than that LeGuin puts non-white races in her books partly to remind readers that just as in real life, they shouldn't expect everyone to be white. By casting white actors as non-white characters, the filmmakers completely screw that up. It is also a matter of identification. Children should be able to see and read about heroes who look like them. --Bluejay Young 16:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Dragon Tongue

The article says that dragons can tell lies in the Dragon Tongue, while humans can't. I think what the books actually say (in A Wizard of Earthsea when Ged first confronts the dragon out in the Western Reaches) is that dragons can't neccessarily lie in the Dragon Tongue, but since it's their native language they have such a good grasp of it that they can say tricky things which aren't lies but which can mislead a less fluent listener. In a similar vein to how, in the stories about genies granting wishes, the genie has to grant the exact wish of the person with the lamp, but can take advantage of looseness in their language to make the wish be not exactly what it knows they really intended.

However, it's been two years since I read A Wizard of Earthsea and I don't have a copy of the book anymore so I can't check to make sure whether this is right or not. --4.246.0.68 17:07, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is correct. Dragons cannot lie, but can deceive. Clarityfiend 09:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

So regarding the statement in the article "One vital aspect of magic is that it is impossible to lie in the old language" should be change, correct? Though the book did say it was Old Speeck. Which I assume is Old Language. The exact quote from the book would be "Although the use of the Old Speech binds a man to truth, this is not so with dragons. Blindwaves 14:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

"Although the use of the Old Speech binds a man to truth, this is not so with dragons. It is their own language, and they can lie in it, twisting the true words to false ends, catching the unwary hearer in a maze of mirrorwords each of which reflects the truth and none of which leads anywhere." It is said specifically that dragons can lie, so I think that it should be changed. Requiem mn 12:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Chatter About Tolkein

I'd like to see it kept to a minimum. Even if we believed, for example, that LeGuin was paying tribute to Tolkein with bits of the Language of the Making as discussed, which the author of the section in this article expressly doubts, it doesn't really enhance an understanding of LeGuin's work, which doesn't resemble Tolkein's opus nearly so much as people are fond of saying. The section on the meaning of Tolkein in the old speech should go.

Miniseries

I've removed Category:Television Miniseries from this page as the article is about the location and literary works, and because Legend of Earthsea already belongs to the miniseries category, thus making a miniseries category here redundant. Ergative rlt 20:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism

I removed the section that alleged "plagiarism" of Earthsea by several authors. Plagiarism is a serious charge that requires greater foundation that a few shared concepts (which, in this case, far predate either work). As far as I could see, what was written in the section could not be easily expanded into a legitimate section. A full section on influence Earthsea had, if better sourced than this, would be welcome, however. PotatoKnight 01:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I wish you had removed the section, or at least changed it to read "Influence on other Authors". It's still there when I read the page. I tried to edit it it and the link would not work. Plagiarism is more than simply being influenced by someones work or having similar ideas. For example, Terry Pratchett alludes to Earthsea in his wonderful Discworld series when the character Granny Weatherwax talks about the dangers of borrowing (which is like shape-shifting) and the importance of staying in balance. Terry Pratchett is a wonderful author who was just giving a nod towards the great authors and ideas that influenced him. If someone wants to add a section of works that were influenced by Ursula Le Guin that would be fine.

General comments

I've thought about this for a long time, and I'm thinking more and more that with Earthsea, Ursula Le Guin has managed to write the perfect fantasy book series. I've read The Hobbit, and part of the Lord of the Rings, by Tolkien, and over 40 Dragonlance books. Still, having read every Earthsea book by Le Guin (not having seen the TV series, though), I can say that Earthsea tops them both.

I understand Le Guin is purposely promoting both gender and race issues. But I never cared about them when I read Earthsea. In fact, I never even noticed them. What I find novel and refreshing, however, is that the world in Earthsea is almost all sea, with all land consisting of islands, no continents, and that there's no special named "evil" - the only evil comes from humans themselves. No other fantasy series has ever managed that, especially the latter one.

I was also impressed by Le Guin's idea of the "true speech" and how saying things in it caused them to be true, by definition. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

In short, Earthsea remains my favourite fantasy series ever, over both LOTR and Dragonlance. I only wish Le Guin would continue her work.

(In contrast, I tried reading some of Le Guin's other work - a compilation of her sci-fi stories. That turned out so boring I was simply flipping the pages without paying attention to the text. How is it possible that one series of her work is so much better than anything else?) JIP | Talk 19:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Go back and read Left Hand of Darkness, Lathe of Heaven, Always Coming Home, and The Dispossessed in a few years. You might also look for a copy of Language of the Night, which is her essays about fantasy writing. The second edition is heavily annotated to bring it up-to-date in terms of insights she's had, particularly on gender. If you're interested in the idea of the true speech, you might want to read True Names by Vernor Vinge, on line here... this book was the prototype for Neal Stephenson's work. --Bluejay Young 16:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

movie

The movie isn't mentioned in the article anywhere! -- Sy / ^(talk) 01:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[1]

This is the television miniseries, which is discussed here >[2]. Shot info 08:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

A new novel for anime?

- According to Ms. Masako Shimizu, Le Guin is working on a new novel. But Le Guin does not want to talk about it before its release, as you can read here. The novel might have something to with the offer Le Guin made to Mr. Miyazaki: to write the (untold) story of Ged, in the years between The Tombs of Atuan and The Farthest Shore. The inbetween years.

Is this history of Earthsea accurate?

Having just read "The Isolate Tower" an Earthsea Compendium created by Ursual Le Guin, which you can find on >http//www.tavia.co.uk/earthsea/, I am concerned that the history of Earthsea listed in this entry is not accurate. Specifically, that only one year passes between Ged defeating the shadow spirit in A Wizard of Earthsea (1032) and his visiting the Tombs of Atuan in 1033. I feel that the timeline listed on the site I have mentioned should replace the one which is currently in this entry. How does one go about doing that? --Aylessa1 15:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Edit away...make the changes you want and if they are inaccurate, I'm sure other editors will alter :-) Shot info 22:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Earthseadvd.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Wizardearthsea.jpg

Image:Wizardearthsea.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 12:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Gedo6sn.jpg

Image:Gedo6sn.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Deletion of Karg/Inca reference

I just deleted the following passage under the Ethnic Groups section in the Earthsea article: "In other respects the Kargs seem to resemble the Incas." This sentence had appeared after a racial description of the Kargs. The section is entitled "Ethnic Groups", and ethnicity may encompass culture, but in this section, only race is discussed. Since Le Guin describes Kargs as being similar in appearance to northern Europeans, only in some other way could they be considered to resemble Incas. The notation "citation needed" had been placed after the Inca statement. I would venture to guess that the person who originally wrote that sentence was not using any statement made by Le Guin, but rather something they came up with on their own. (This may also be true for the Viking statement also.) S. Neuman (talk) 20:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Should perhaps then we rename the section 'Racial Groups' rather than ethnic?Ged UK (talk) 20:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Technically they are the same "race" (human) but different ethnic groups. I personally would prefer that "Ethnic Groups" is used - as well as the removal of the editorialising. Shot info (talk) 00:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Possible Improvements?

I'd like to see Earthsea get good enough to be an A article like Middle-earth. Some improvements I would like to see to this article include sources for the direct color comparisons with real world ethnic groups in People and Cultures. In fact, more sources in general would be great. I suggest that the list of dates in the History of Earthsea is too long and unnecessary, and should probably be relegated to an external link. I'd like to see perhaps a gender section in Magic; in fact, I think it should be divided into several subsections (of which Roke could be one), like the influence of geography, and perhaps the relationship of magic and religion. I think the "examples of magic" is silly and should be removed.

Other suggestions? Comments? Mistsrider (talk) 12:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the history section is faaaar too long and totally disrupts the flow. If we really think we ought to keep it in some form, then I would suggest a separate article.I also agree that the examples of magic are unnecessary, but we do need to keep in the central concept of naming, because that is critical to the concept. Again, I agree with the gender and magic idea, because of the male-centricness of magic in the Isles during most of the series, but considering that Le Guin had women using high magic in the earlier tales. Ged UK (talk) 09:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, i've done some of these today. Not had time to redo the magic section, and i'd really need to re-read some of the books before I'd feel comfortable with it. Maybe over the weekend Ged UK (talk) 20:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)