Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (common names)

Names for ethnic communities living outside the boundaries of their own ethnic state

Currently there's a lot of conflict over this point (see, for example, Talk:Ethnic Mongolians in China, Talk:Chinese Indonesian, Talk:Ethnic Koreans in China, Talk:Chinese Malaysian). We have examples of all of the following patterns, and there's been objections to every single one. (Full disclosure: I'm not an unbiased informant here, I'm personally opposed to standardisation on the American-style model of "Ethnicity, then nationality" and have been going around arguing against it).:

• Ethnicity, then nationality (like Chinese American):. Some people go around trying to standardise all other usages to match this one, even when these are minority usages (e.g. Chinese Malaysian) or not clearly established (Chinese Mongolian, Korean Chinese). There's also conflict over whether usages of this form should be hyphenated or not.
• Nationality, then ethnicity (like British Chinese): Some people complain this is inaccurate and try to standardize as above. Others also complain that this form overemphasizes the foreignness of the ethnic group in question (the ethnicity as a noun, modified by the nationality).
• Non-English names in the language of the ethnic group (like Koryo-saram): Some people complain this usage is not clear to English speakers. It also may lead to conflicts over transcription (e.g. the above spelling, based off of an old romanization, could be updated to use the Revised Romanization spelling "Goryeo-saram"). Also, how members of the ethnic group living outside their country of origin prefer to call themselves may be different from what their co-ethnics back in the mother country call them (in this case, "Goryeo-in").
• Non-English names in the language of the country of residence (like Zainichi Korean): Same problem as above, plus the possible accusation of racism because you're using the "mainstream" name instead of the ethnic group's name in their own ethnic language (Jaeil). Especially when the mainstream name doesn't make any distinction between foreigners and citizens. (E.g. Hoa, which just means "Chinese").
• Ethnic (Group name) in (Country name) (like Ethnic Koreans in China): some people complain that this is too unwieldy, and also it doesn't sufficiently distinguish between Chinese citizens of Korean descent, and Korean citizens living in China. Others assert (usually just based on their own opinion) that "Ethnic Abc" is clearly distinguished from plain old "Abc" (as in Ethnic German). Also this usage does start to look excessively long if you try to think about how to title a page describing the reverse migration of said ethnic group to their country of origin.

Any suggestions? Can other readers here help us to write clearer guidelines regarding this to avoid having to repeat the same debate on every single ethnicity page? cab 04:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to standardize. If the US says "Chinese-American" and the UK says "British Chinese", the articles should be at those locations. john k 23:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree strongly of course. I think the main problem comes when there is no usual term in English for referring to to the given population; then someone makes an arbitrary decision, usually by analogy either to Chinese American or to British Chinese (e.g. Israeli Chinese, Chinese Cayman Islander), and someone else disagrees with it ... my argument is that both of these violate Wikipedia:No original research by introducing new terms/new definitions of existing terms, and that the page title should be something descriptive instead (e.g. "Chinese in the Cayman Islands"), but is that the proper interpretation? Usually the counter-argument is that a "reasonable person" would expect to find the page at the pre-existing location. cab 00:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that you are right. And why would somebody expect Chinese Cayman Islander, anyway, if there's no reliable sources that use the term? john k 12:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but we actually need to come up with a standardized form because it will be so confusing to people when they see terms like Chinese-American and American-Chinese. Is 'American-Chinese' a Chinese of American heritage (which is very odd) or what is it? People must decide to conform to ONE method either the American way or the British way or whatever way. I don't see anything wrong of conforming to the US method of ethnicity as an adjective and then nationality second. In most cases, it makes the most sense! I don't see why many people have such a huge problem with that when, in the end, it's one of the most sensical systems when it comes to these ethno-national terms. I think it's just because a lot of people have this usual bias for the British method solely for the fact that people do not want to be conforming to American English methods (even if they do come up with practical and logical ways). People just refuse to budge purely because it is the 'American' way. Many people would prefer to follow the so-called 'correct' British system or as long as it is 'not American'. So therefore, people should just finally resolve this issue and settle on the US standard method. 'Ethnicity then your nationality'.. what is so impractical about that??? I mean come on. If you are an American of Chinese descent, then your nationality is American and as an adjective-marker, your heritage which makes you DIFFERENT from other Americans of different ancestries, which makes you distinct from English Americans or African Americans is 'Chinese'. I think people here get carried away with this because they are arguing from the point of view of personal feelings of what an ethnic or national group might see themselves as. We are not here to argue about that. We are here to come up with an objective (NOT subjective) method of naming ethnic groups outside their respective 'ethnic states' regardless of whether a Chinese-American feels that he is only Chinese or whether a German of Turkish descent feels he is as German as the majority ethnic Germans. There is a clear line between personal feelings of ethnicity and nationality (hence influencing some people's reasons here) AND coming up with a logical naming method.

I believe it would be best that all articles included within this talk be named the same way, an I belive that say Chinese British instead of British Chinese is the best name. National Statistics of the UK even uses this term, and official terms should be followed and not ignored or debated, follow the link to see the term Asian British used, instead of the Wikipedia created highly innacurate British Asian [1]. Stevvvv4444 18:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Hirohito#RFC:_Appropriate_Emperor_Name

An RFC on content related to this convention has been opened, comments are welcome. MBisanz ^talk 01:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Personal nicknames

A discussion at Talk:World War I has raised an issue begging for a guideline: controversial nicknames. In the case at hand, a historically-used nickname of an individual (US General Jack Pershing) is now considered offensive by modern sensibilities and has been bowdlerized. Editor might use the historically accurate name, the widely accepted bowdlerized version, just the simplified name, or the legal name. Comments? LeadSongDog (talk) 14:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

As per my comments at the World War I talk page, I don't believe this particular instance needs a MoS guideline. It's a specific instance where a nickname is totally unrelated to the article (i.e., Pershing wasn't given the nickname in question because of the war, etc.), therefore, it is totally irrelevant to the subject and shouldn't be included. It is, of course, directly relevant to John J. Pershing, and probably to 10th Cavalry Regiment (United States) (the unit Pershing commanded that was the cause for the nickname). If we were to have a guideline for nicknames, I think it should be "if it's relevant, include it, if not, can it". Parsecboy (talk) 22:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Does "common names" refer to "most common usage?"

In this discussion and elsewhere, an editor argues that it is valid to use "circumcision" as the title of an article which bars the discussion of the circumcision of females, because "circumcision" is the common name for the concept of the circumcision of males (the topic under discussion). I argue that this conflicts with this guideline (among others), because it creates an ambiguity, and incorrectly or at least non-neutrally implies that the circumcision of females does not fall under the general concept of circumcision. I am under the impression that the goal of this guideline was to avoid overly-scientific or technical names for concepts where simpler and more widely-known names exist. Am I wrong and does this guideline also mean that a common, expedient name for one specific concept overrides a rigourous definition of the general concept? Opinions and comments welcome, and thank you. Blackworm (talk) 22:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

TV shows

If a TV show changed its name while still on the air, should we continue using the old title? If so, how long would it be before the new title would be considered more common? This is in regards to WWE Friday Night SmackDown! (though there are other shows I know that could be affected). The show has always had a "!" since it premiered in August 1999, but seems to have dropped it as of tonights episode. There is a current more request and I was wondering what applies here, I should also point out that the show was originally called "WWF SmackDown!" from August 1999-May 2002 (when the WWF was legally forced to stop using those initials, so they changed their name to WWE), then "WWE SmackDown!" from May 2002-September 2006, and "WWE Friday Night SmackDown!" from Setpember 2006 until today. TJ Spyke 09:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Currency name guidelines

Current guidelines at WP:WikiProject Numismatics that call for currency articles to be at their native rather than English names appear to be an attempt to supersede WP:UCN. Please discuss proposed changes at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics/Style#Guidelines change proposal. — AjaxSmack 23:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Conflict

I just now removed the phrase "that does not conflict with..." from the lead sentence and the nutshell. This guideline and the Wikipedia:Naming conflict guideline should be complementary. Instead the "does not conflict with" statement is causing political warriors to deny that article names can ever conflict. Without the statement, this article points to the exceptions section, where I have written an extra statement pointing to the naming conflict guideline.

If this is too bold, please discuss. Drop a line on my talk page. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I think the reason that "does not conflict" was on there was to avoid confusion. Consider Maryland Route 2 for example. "Route 2" is the most common name for it, but we can't use that name, because it conflicts, so instead we use the most common name which doesn't conflict, "Maryland Route 2". I think without making that clear on this page, people will think that that article should be located at Route 2 (Maryland). That, of course, would be in violation of Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Specific topic, which explicitly states that parentheses should be avoided. I've seen people who misunderstood this naming convention use it as an argument to move articles to titles that used parentheses because the non-parenthesized portion in their suggested title was the "most common name". If it's not clearly stated here that we should only use the most common name that doesn't conflict, the problem will only get worse.-Jeff ^(talk) 16:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how the "does not conflict part" disagrees with WP:NCON, as that guideline says that when one name conflicts with the name of something else, to consult WP:DAB. WP:DAB#Specific topic says that if another name exists for the topic in question, that does not conflict with the name of something else, then that name should be used. In other words, "use the most common name that does not conflict". I think I gave this long enough and got no response, so I'll go ahead and add the "does not conflict" parts back in for now, unless someone has a strong argument for removing or rewording them.-Jeff ^(talk) 02:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Jordan (model) -> Katie Price -> Kate André

Jordan (Katie Price) has been moved without any discussion to Katie André. Although there has been talk in unreliable sources of her now using her married name - Katie André - this has not been confirmed and she will still be know to most people as Jordan or Katie Price. Please can someone who knows what they are doing have a look and revert if necessary. Thanks -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 22:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

When the two names under consideration are not synonyms, but one reflects early (inaccurate) media reports

There was a discussion at Talk:Jerusalem bulldozer attack on this matter. Early media reports said the attack was with a bulldozer, but later it was revealed to have been a front-end loader, a different kind of machinery. This page was cited as showing that we should go with the commonly-reported name. I wrote:

I respectfully disagree. I believe what WP:NC, WP:NC(CN), WP:NCON, etc. are talking about when they advocate using the "common" name over the "correct" name is, for example, using Marilyn Manson instead of Brian Warner, or Pluto instead of 134340 Pluto (the scientific name). In these cases, the two possible titles are synonyms for the same thing. As they say, "a rose by any other name is just as sweet." In this case, "loader" and "bulldozer" are not synonymous; a loader is what was used and a bulldozer is not, and therefore we should go with the former.

We can always redirect from what people may mistakenly use. What might be the best solution would be to come up with a name that avoids using either "bulldozer" or "loader," but still makes it clear which attack this is; I just haven't thought of one yet. Notice, however, that many of the media accounts do not mention the name of the machinery at all; or they call it "earthmover."[2] Aldrich Hanssen (talk) 12:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me know if anyone has any insight into this type of case. This particular one is not really all that important in the final analysis, but it's good to have clarification of the guideline in case something similar crops up in the future. Aldrich Hanssen (talk) 12:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

• The incident is most widely referred to as "Jerusalem bulldozer attack". The comparably very minor point that it wasn't in fact a bulldozer is cleared up within the article. Everyme (was Dorftrottel) (talk) 16:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Naming conventions redirects

Please see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Naming conventions redirects -- a proposal that WP:COMMON should redirect to Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use common names of persons and things --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Chinese cash

An issue related to common name usage in titles is under discussion at Talk:Chinese wén, specifically the use of common names of currencies as currently recommended by the style guidelines as well as WP:UCN. If interested, please discuss a resolution of a titleing issue and give suggestions there. — AjaxSmack 01:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Battles of common names

When does a common expressions of the type "Battle of XYZ" or "Invasion of ABC" take precedence over actual operational names? These are invariably always more common because in some cases, particularly where Second World War is concerned, the official names did not become available to the public until decades after the fact so became "common" by default--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Use correct names

I do not find the policy rationale on common names reasonable: I believe we ought to use the most correct name for the article, the common names being redirects. Common names are often extremely misguided, unjust, POV, problematic, polemic, and often born out of ignorance and confusion by uneducated masses or willful manipulation by political interests. By using common names, we only perpetuate many injustices and stupidities that have found their way into the common language. We should not do that: we must always use the most correct name from a historical and scientific point of view. We are NOT a pop encyclopedia. We are here to educate the people, and part of the education is about using the most correct name for each encyclopedic article, whether it is about a person, a country, a people, a language, a geographical region, a biological species, a planet, an invention, a theory or idea, or anything else. NerdyNSK (talk) 17:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place to advocate a title change in order to reflect recent scholarship

Whyever not? Lucian Sunday (talk) 15:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Not solely to reflect recent scholarship. We should not change name until the recent scholarship changes English usage; for one thing, there is always the chance that even more recent scholarship will change things again. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:57, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Subpages

I think the section Subpages is not the appropriate for this guideline which should concentrate on the common names of articles. The section is covered in the Naming Conventions policy under WP:NC#Do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles so I propose that we delete the Subpages section from this convention and move and merge the details up into the Wikipedia:Naming Conventions. The current section "WP:NC#Do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles" will become a subsection of a new section called Subpages and the subsection Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Subsidiary articles will join it. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Does common name policy still reflect consensus?

Frequently in discussions on article renames, a significant but vocal proportion of the voters oppose and effectively ignore the current common names policy, generally calling it "slang colloquialism", "not the precise and correct term", "[un]professional" or "misnomer" (see e.g. public house, Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster, Origen, Two mountains, Can't Take My Eyes Off You).

This leads me to wonder, does this policy really reflect consensus? Has consensus moved? Part of the justification of the original policy was to get better coverage by search engines; frequently Wikipedia is the first, or one of the first three hits on Google, so is this of concern any longer? Would a change of policy – and the mass rename that would presumably ensue – change the position of Wikipedia on Google searches?

It seems to me that the opposition is strongest where the common term is somehow "incorrect" (and perhaps disliked by experts in the field) or is primarily or exclusively a colloquialism. Current policy does not appear to give any weight to these concerns.

Effectively this means that pages with a common name vs. "proper" name (whatever that actually means in any particular case) are frozen, as consensus cannot be reached for a new name, even if the current naming scheme is damaging.

Has this policy been discussed recently and the current consensus gauged? If not, is it time?

--Rogerb67 (talk) 22:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Common names have been a policy/guidline factor in Wikipedia development since the Revision as of 01:15, 6 May 2002 as such it is a very old policy. We have modified this statement this year by adding a provision to the Naming Conventions policy in the section Use the most easily recognized name "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." which I think addresses your concerns. If you do not think that it does then, I suggest that we discuss in on the Naming Conventions talk page rather than this guideline. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I'm not sure it does address all my concerns. Do you have any objection to moving or copying this section there in its entirety, including your response? (alternatively please go ahead and do it yourself.) --Rogerb67 (talk) 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

no objections. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree there is a problem with the policy. Essentially it chooses the names that the Great Unwashed would choose, rather than those chosen by people who know what they're talking about. It's a cultural problem across WP generally, that elevates opinion above expertise, evidence and reason. I've seen many comments on talk pages saying, "If most people think that Foo is called X, then Foo is called X." This is Argumentum ad populum.

Search is not the problem it was in 2002. Google tends to rank WP pages highly whether the search term is the article name or not.

So what do we do about this? Many decades ago, the BBC's Pronunciation Unit faced a similar problem in standardising the pronunciation across the Corporation's output of (for example) local place names. They settled on adopting the pronunciation that 'educated local' people would use. Maybe our policy should encapsulate an 'educated local' kind of approach. It would adopt neither the choice of the Great Unwashed nor that of the the narrowly-focussed ivory-tower boffin, but rather that of a well-educated, well-informed and intellectually-rigorous non-specialist.--Harumphy (talk) 08:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The section in the NC policy "Use the most easily recognized name" covers this with "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.". --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, the elitism expressed in some of the posts in this section is disappointing. The argument expressed is NOT, "If most people think that Foo is called X, then Foo is called X." The argument IS a tautology: "If most people refer to Foo as X, then most people refer to Foo as X, and so the name of the article should be X". For example, the term used by medical experts for median neuropathy at the wrist is median neuropathy at the wrist, but most people use the term carpal tunnel syndrome and, so, that's the name of the Wikipedia article. You're right, the common name convention elevates opinion above expertise, but that's the point of using the name that most people will recognize. Yes, it chooses the names that the Great Unwashed would use. So what? Is there really a problem that the article is at carpal tunnel syndrome and not at median neuropathy at the wrist? What do we do about this? Why do anything about this? I don't see what the problem is. And while there are a few exceptions here or there with people insisting on using the "correct" terminology instead of the terminology most commonly used to refer to the subject of the article in question, I think it's safe to say that the common name policy still reflects consensus. Thankfully. --Serge (talk) 16:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There is no problem with (e.g.) carpal tunnel syndrome, because it is (a) neither ambiguous nor inaccurate and (b) what a well-educated non-specialist would call it. A problem is occurring because there have been several recent examples of proposed moves to names that are ambiguous and/or inaccurate, despite the policy. So your example is a straw man argument. --Harumphy (talk) 12:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by "despite the policy."? Which part of the policy? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:15, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(precision). --Harumphy (talk) 15:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I, for one, am not sure what you're talking about. Can you give some examples of proposed moves to names that you feel are ambiguous and/or inaccurate, per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(precision) or any other policy? For example, there is nothing ambiguous or inaccurate about the well-known name Pub, yet that article is at the relatively obscure Public house. --Serge (talk) 17:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

See my comments at Talk:Public house#Continued discussions "Pub"/"Public house" is not as clear cut as you imply. There are other names such as "Lech Wałęsa" and Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster which are better examples. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

In view of User:Philip Baird Shearer's utterly disgraceful action in moving Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster, despite there being even less of a consensus for the move than the last time it was discussed, it seems there is little point in taking part in these discussions because a self-perpetuating cabal of unaccountable admins will do whatever the fuck they please and sod the rest of us. This comment is my final contribtuion to WP. Thank you and goodnight. --Harumphy (talk) 21:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Common name convention being ignored

In case anyone cares, the common name convention is being openly ignored at Talk:Public_house#Requested_move, where it looks like the proposed move of the practically unheard of Public House to the ubiquitous Pub (in order to conform to WP:UCN) is likely to fail. --Serge (talk) 16:45, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

What if it does conflict?

The current wording:

"Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things."

does not reflect actual practice; if it did, almost no article title would use a parenthetic disambiguator, since in the real world almost nothing is referred to in such a manner. I think what it means is:

"Use the most common name of a person or thing provided that does not conflict with the names of other people or things."

which of course says nothing about what to do when that is not the case. I don't think it is expected that you will draw up a list of names, ordered by commonness, and work down the list till you get to an unambiguous one; I think below some minimum level of commonness, you're expected to bail out and use the common name plus a parenthetic disambiguation. jnestorius^(talk) 11:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Good point, though (unfortunately in my view) some articles are disambiguated by using a name that is less common (like royalty), and some classes of articles are disambiguated by something other than parenthetic disambiguation (notably cities using the so-called comma convention). In still other articles the most common name cannot be decided, and a compromise is used that is clearly not the most common name (e.g., fixed-wing aircraft). I think there would be a lot fewer issues associated with naming if first priority was always given to the most common name of each article subject, and then disambiguating it with parenthesis the content of which depends on what the conflicting topics are. For example, if one topic is the only automobile among all uses of that name, then (automobile) is probably the most appropriate disambiguator. That, in a nutshell, is probably all we need for naming conventions, instead of the plethora of independent and contradictory conventions for most every conceivable class of names. --Serge (talk) 14:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Domestic dog

There is a proposal at Talk:Dog to move that article to Domestic dog (and at Talk:Cat to move it todomestic cat), by a user who seems to be under the impression that WP:NC (precision) is the whole of our naming convention; comments are welcome.

If these suggestions draw wide support, we may need to consider what the balance between the guidelines should be. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to change nutshell wording

The current nutshell wording of this convention is:

Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.

I think the first clause, "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication", is at the root of most naming conflicts. For a category of names in which "the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things" is generally difficult if not impossible to determine (names of royalty is a good example), other conventions are useful in providing naming guidance. But those cases are not exceptions to this convention, since "the most common name of a person or thing" is not determined and so cannot be used. Those are cases where this guideline is insufficient, and more guidance is required. But in those cases where the most common name is blatantly obvious, it should be used as the title of the article, period. As such, I propose changing the current nutshell wording to the following:

Whenever the most common name of a person or thing is known, and it does not conflict with the names of other notable people or things, use it as the name of the article. When the most common name cannot be determined, or it conflicts with other notable uses of that name, other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions should provide appropriate guidance.

Comments? --Born2cycle (talk) 15:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not a convention but a guideline to a convention. The conventions are in the Naming Conventions policy page.

Whenever the most common name of a person or thing is known, and it does not conflict with the names of other notable people or things, use it as the name of the article would mean that the article William I of England would be move to William the Conqueror. It would negate many other conventions and guidelines to the conventions. If that is to be contemplated it should be done on the policy page and very widely advertised. --PBS (talk) 18:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this page is a convention page, but not a policy page like WP:NC. But I'll take the proposal up there. And yes, I do think it's a mistake to have William the Conqueror at William I of England, though the problem of defaulting to something other than the most common name is not as evident in some classes of names (like names of royalty) as it is in others, but it does establish precedent that often leads to conflict. Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions#Proposal to reduce naming conflicts - avoid preemptive disambiguation --PBS (talk) 23:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Cases in which there is no common name

Hi. There's an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) about what to do with episode articles for pilot episodes which don't have an individual title. These episodes are usually just called "the pilot episode", and our articles on them have traditionally been at Pilot (Lost), Pilot (Smallville), Pilot (The X-Files), and so on. Since these pilots are sometimes referred to by the name of the series, there was a proposal to change this naming pattern to Lost (pilot) or Lost (pilot episode), Smallville (pilot) or Smallville (pilot episode), and so forth. The resulting discussion has been mostly going in circles, and WP:UCN has been referenced several times. I'm of the opinion that these pilot episodes are unnamed, and therefore we can use an arbitrary naming convention; other editors feel that the convention Pilot (series name) implies that the episode is in fact named "Pilot".

In the interest of clearing up that discussion, I've got a few questions for UCN experts:

1. What criteria can be used to indicate that something does not have a common name? Is it sufficient to note that different reliable sources use different titles, on an apparently ad hoc basis, or do you need an actual source saying "this is unnamed"?
2. If something is in fact untitled, but there is a common usage for what it's called, is it appropriate to treat that common usage as if it were the title?
3. When a category of untitled items exist, is it OK for us to apply an arbitrary naming standard?

I don't want to spread the discussion about TV pilots here, so any further discussion here should be kept general. However, anyone who's interested is welcome to join the conversation at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television), especially if you think you can break the current deadlock. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Misinterpretation of verifiable reliable sources statement

I've noticed that there are many different interpretation of this relatively new statement in the guideline, and it's causing problems:

Determine the common name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.

Some people seem to think that this means only academic sources should be consulted when determining the most common name that refers to a given topic. It has even been argued that because of this statement, the google test cannot be used, because the google results are not limited to "verifiable reliable sources". At the talk page of WP:NC (flora) it is being argued that the name of Joshua Tree National Park cannot be used as evidence that Joshua tree is commonly used to refer to the namesake plant because the park name is not a "verifiable reliable source". Is that what is intended here? That interpretation, which I can understand when that sentence is taken out of context, flies in the face of the very next sentence which states: "What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?"

Anyone else agree this should be fixed/clarified? Any suggestions on how? Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

My understanding of that example is as follows. The plant species Yucca brevifolia has several common (vernacular) names, including "Joshua tree". The name of the national park is evidence that "Joshua tree" is a common name for this species, but that point is not in dispute. The point in dispute is the most common name of this species. The name of the national park is not evidence that "Joshua tree" is the most common name. I am persuaded that the most common name of this species is its scientific name, Yucca brevifolia. --Una Smith (talk) 23:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

You don't have to take that sentence out of context to believe that the name of a park is not a reliable source for the most common name of a plant; all you have to do is go read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. By the same token, you don't have to take that sentence out of context to believe that the Google test is not a reliable source for anything at all; all you have to do is go read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Seriously, if this issue boils down to what is a reliable source and what isn't, then you should be over at Wikipedia:Reliable sources, not here.

As I've said elsewhere, "What word would the average user of Wikipedia put into the search engine?" is unknowable and unmeasurable. The best we can hope for is a good approximation metric. There are many possible metrics—the Google test is one of them—and we could argue until the cows come home over what metric is most appropriate. It is appropriate that this policy give guidance on which metric we should use; hence "Determine the common name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject."

Hesperian 10:10, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This is especially true when the search term is an ambiguous term. That is a common problem with common names; see for example the majority of pages in Category:Plant common names. --Una Smith (talk) 18:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Commonly used names

From the history of the article:

diff 11:34, 1 January 2009 Hesperian (Talk | contribs | block) (9,837 bytes) (there is no "some other name"—it's a dichotomy.)

It is not a dichotomy. (to keep it simple) Let us suppose that the scientific literature describes an entity which has one scientific name and one common name. But in the set of all reliable sources (which is greater than the set of scientific literature) a third name proves to be the most commonly used name, then the third name should be used.

The whole point of the paragraph is to distinguish between common name (as used in scientific literature) and commonly used name as used in the Wikipedia naming conventions, so that there is no confusion in peoples minds over the difference between common name as used in the scientific literature and common name as used in the Wikipedia naming conventions.

Your change implies that they are one and the same thing --which they may often be -- but it may not be universally true in the set of all possible named entities. --PBS (talk) 11:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The third name is either a scientific name or a common name. It's a dichotomy. Hesperian 12:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be suffering under the misapprehension that a name is not a common name unless a scientist declares it so. This is not the case. A common name, as this term is applied to plants and animals, is simply any name for a plant or animal that is not a scientific name i.e. a name validly published under the nomenclatural laws governing the taxon. Hesperian 12:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I see now that this same misapprehension eunderlies your insistence on including "in the scientific literature". Your understanding of what a common name is is fundamentally flawed. Hesperian 12:19, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so, but we may be talking at cross purposes. Scientific may attach the label "common name" to something meaning a name used by those outside the scientific community (the patricians and the plebs). But that is a different meaning from the use of common in the Wikipedia naming conventions which is using the term to mean frequent used.

If you do not think that there is a difference between "common name" as used in scientific literature and "common name" as used in this guideline, then you should be pressing for the deletion of the paragraph as it cannot be providing any additional information. --PBS (talk) 12:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Grrr. I almost feel you are wilfully misunderstanding me now. Try this: "When dealing with plants and animals, any name that is not a scientific name is called a common name. It is important not to conflate this usage of the term common name with the most commonly used name in English, as used in reliable sources; this guideless deals with the latter. The most commonly used name may be the scientific name or a common name." Hesperian 12:45, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I've altered the wording slightly.[3] If you can live with it please say so, and we can then move on. --PBS (talk) 15:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hesperian: by "common name", PBS is conflating commonly used name and vernacular name. I rewrote the paragraph, making it much shorter. There is no such thing as a scientific "common name"; see common name. --Una Smith (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I expect PBS's reference to scientific "common name" is a reference to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna), which says to use a certain authority's checklist of "approved" common names for articles about birds. That is an exception to general practice in taxonomy and furthermore it is a prescriptive convention, rather than a descriptive one, which has a number of ramifications. Most notable is the number of exceptions to the rule to use the checklist. See the last few sections on the talk page. --Una Smith (talk) 18:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not a dichotomy

It's not a dichotomy. To use an example from fauna, consider whale. Whale is commonly used to refer to certain types of marine mammals, but it's not a scientific "common name" for any taxa. Whale is not a scientific "common name" for the order Cetacea because dolphins and porpoises are also members of Cetacea, but in the common usage of the term "whale", dolphins and porpoises are not included.

The example of whale illustrates a broader issue that affects the naming of plants and animals. The key factor to consider when naming any article in Wikipedia is of course the topic of that article. In the case of whale, that topic is "marine mammals that are not dolphins or porpoises". There is no scientific term (neo-Latin or "common name") that is used to refer to that topic, because that topic does not correspond to any taxa. Yet it is a valid and notable animal topic. If we change the article to be about the entire order (in which case the article name would be Cetacea), we are changing the topic of the article.

In plants a similar situation occurs with Monterey cypress. Although the name most commonly used to refer to the native tree is Monterey cypress, that species is also cultivated and not so commonly referred to as Monterey cypress in that form. So here again, the well-known native tree is a notable topic in and of itself, and if we make the topic of the article about the species rather than just the native tree, we are changing the topic.

So it's not simply about choosing names, it's about choosing topics, and the issue of whether animal and plant article topics must correspond to scientific taxa. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

It is a dichotomy, and "scientific common name" is a neologism. Whale is the common name for a group of animals that has no scientific name, because it is not a taxon. Cetacea is the scientific name for a different group of animals, for which Whale is not a common name (but Cetacean arguably is). Hesperian 03:42, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted to the last version by First Light. This is because if you read the wording carefully User:Born2cycle the way that common name is defined will not necessarily mean the common name of a taxa. I would prefer more explicit language (of the type you put in) but, the wording as of the edit by First Light will do if it means we have a consensus. user: Una Smith the addition of "one of several corresponding vernacular names." is not acceptable because as Born2cycle there is not always a one to one mapping.

user: Una Smith I suggest that we keep the changes to a minimum and only address the current paragraph. Before we start changing the meaning of "common name" throughout in this guideline there should be far more participation as it affects all areas of Wikipedia and many editors have used the expression for years and are comfortable with the expression. If you really want to start changing parts of this guideline that have been stable for a long time, then please advertise it at village pump and on the wikipedia talk:naming conventions --PBS (talk) 19:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

It is very clear from the discussion here and elsewhere that there is a fundamental confusion over what Wikipedia usages of "common name" refer to: "commonly used name" and "vernacular name". That needs to be fixed. --Una Smith (talk) 20:23, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

When you made the reversal of my last revert, you did no address the my concern over "one of several corresponding vernacular names." --PBS (talk) 21:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

No it is not very clear that other than in a small area of the wikipedia there is any confusion. The paragraph that has recently been added and we have been discussing is to clarify that area where there is some confusion. As I said if you want to make substantive changes to this guideline then first advertise your intention at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and on the wikipedia talk:naming conventions so that we can build a wide participation in building consensus for the changes. It would also be a good idea to post an WP:RFC ({{RFCpolicy}} to increase participation. --PBS (talk) 21:33, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

PBS, you edited the page without first seeking consensus, then you reverted my edit for doing likewise. That's hypocrisy. You say you have a "concern". What exactly is your concern? --Una Smith (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:IDHT and Monterey Cypress

• 19:15, 27 December 2008: Born2cycle claims that Monterey Cypress is obviously the most common name for the species, without proferring any evidence.[4]
• 03:58, 28 December 2008: Hesperian refutes claim, provides evidence against, invites Born2cycle to provide evidence in support of claim.[5]
• Born2cycle does not bother to respond.
• 06:38, 28 December 2008: Born2cycle again claims that Monterey Cypress is obviously the most common name for the species, without proferring any evidence.[6]
• 10:25, 28 December 2008: Hesperian again demands evidence.[7]
• Again, Born2cycle again does not bother to respond.
• 00:09, 30 December 2008: Born2cycle claims that Monterey Cypress is the most common name for specimens in their natural habitat, without proferring any evidence.[8]
• 16:43, 1 January 2009: Born2cycle claims that Monterey Cypress is the most common name for specimens in their natural habitat, without proferring any evidence.[9]

This is the most straightforward case of WP:IDHT that I've come across in my four years here. Born2cycle, give us evidence or desist making this baseless assertion. Hesperian 03:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Title of this article

I am thinking the article title needs to be changed, to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (commonly used name). --Una Smith (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (most commonly used names) ? --Born2cycle (talk) 18:01, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (most commonly used name)? --Una Smith (talk) 18:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The name should not be changed without a lot of participation and a WP:RM. --PBS (talk) 19:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, let's start a survey. --Una Smith (talk) 20:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Should we change the title of this article? To what?

• Yes, to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (most commonly used name). --Una Smith (talk) 20:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

You should not start a debate with a survey see Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion. First you need to advertise this suggested change at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and at wikipedia talk:naming conventions. If no clear consensus emerges then put in a WP:RM. It would also be a good idea to post an WP:RFC ({{RFCpolicy}} to increase participation. --PBS (talk) 21:18, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

PBS is correct here, changing the name of policy pages requires much larger participation than a survey on the policy talk page. --KP Botany (talk) 02:18, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

So? This is a good place to start. --Una Smith (talk) 05:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Page protection -- reach consensus, don't edit war

I asked for this page to be protected so that it would stop being changed/reverted/changed/reverted/reverted/changed. If you're new to Wikipedia and page protection, it's not that big of a deal. As a group, come up with changes, then request the protecting admin or another uninvolved administrator to implement the changes or allow the changes for you. It was protected at a version created by one of the edit warriors, but this is not to advocate that particular version. I requested that it be reverted to when the edit warring on this page appeared to have started. Older changes by some participants in this particular battle appear to have been more stable than this latest round. Which simply means they were not immediately reverted.

It's likely throughout Wikipedia that substantive changes to policy and guideline pages will be reverted if they are not discussed on the talk page first. That's really straight-forward. Policy and guidelines pages are used daily by editors to learn what the community consensus is. And that is not usually something that changes 3-4 times a day. This is why most of these changes have been reverted.

If you don't like Wikipedia naming policies, attempt, politely, to gain consensus for change. When you have reached this consensus, the policies and guideline pages can be edited to reflect this consensus.

I request you not carry this edit war to additional policy and guideline pages.

--KP Botany (talk) 06:56, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The page, which is now protected currently stands as it did at 03:23, 19 December 2008. --PBS (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46

I think that the new paragraph on plants and animal is useful and informative. As there are no substantive changes to general guidance of the page up until the version by Hesperian --Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46 (diffs), as a new base, I propose that we move forward from the currently protected version to Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46. If that is acceptable to everyone, then we can discuss changes to that wording before implementing any further changes. Does anyone object to moving to Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46? --PBS (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)