User talk:Rjanag

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If the offer still stands...

...it appears that you also have at least one co-nom, if desired. Probably a few others that would volunteer for that too (if you want names, e-mail me!) I guess there's no better time to go through it :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks ... draft responses for comment (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Truly, thanks ... working on the finalities as we speak type (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

..and thanks for the truly kind words in the nom. Much appreciated. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:36, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Should I remove this response? I truly feel he's going down some kind of WP:SOAP path, but I'm WP:AGFing and responding politely ... (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you're probably fine...although if he keeps up you're right that it's probably best just to let him have the last word. It should be clear to the crats that he's harping over a really minor thing. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

July 2009 Ürümqi riots

Hey, that's great its at FAC, nice work! :) To be honest, I don't have opinion on the flag use - I added the reactions as they came in and flags made it easier as is the case with many other articles, so reading your comment I agree it makes it easier visually, rather than a load of text. But noting the other users concerns, it would make sense to either change them to the "link alt" thing. Bolding is fine but I think I prefer the first option, though I'm happy with either outcome. Sorry I'm not much use, I'm not really familiar with Wikipedia policies in this respect! Midway (talk) 23:50, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

• As only admins can do this, can you please set up an {{editnotice}} and eject the stuff which is currently seen at the top of the article when in edit mode? Cheers. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 04:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Good idea, I'll get to it right away. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 05:13, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
    • fix "titlesof" to "titles of" :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Was it you who changed the italicisation of BBC News, etc? If so, was it at the prompting of any FAC comment? AFAIK, italics are usually reserved for traditional (ie paper) journals etc. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 01:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Not sure. I changed all instances of BBC News, etc., to |work= (from |publisher= or |agency=) because that seemed to be what Template:cite news suggested. Based on my reading of it, it sounded like |agency= is only supposed to be used for the agency that wrote and supplied the article (i.e., it's sort of a replacement for |author=) and generally only when that differs from the newspaper/website where we found it (for example, a China Daily article that says the source is Xinhua, or something on ABC news that says the source is AP). Anyway, long story short, the italicization is probably a result of that change.

Of course, I haven't been working with this template for a long time so perhaps that is not the consensus on how things should be used. But that's what the documentation makes it sound like, so if the consensus is different we should probably update the documentation. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, '|work=' does italicise. I'll go and sort them out. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Your sig

Hello Rjanag, for some reason I don't quite understand, the "<b class="Unicode">" tag in your sig causes your name to be displayed as a blank on my computer (Firefox 3.0 on Ubuntu 8.4). Omitting the "class" attribute solves the issue for me. I don't know why this is or whether other users are affected by the same problem. Would you consider modifying the sig? Thanks, --Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm, that's interesting. I'll have to try it out on a few different computers...I believe the original reason I put the class there was to allow the special characters ʨ and ɢ to display for people with older browsers.

I wonder if it would be any different if I use class="IPA". Can you let me know if this shows up for you?:

• rʨanaɢ

Thanks for the notification, rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 07:06, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the IPA version works for me. Apparently my browser chokes up somehow on the font list for .Unicode at MediaWiki:Common.css, selecting fonts from the list that aren't installed on my system (weird, since several others in the list are in fact there.) I can reproduce the same kind of blank when doing manually "<b><span style="font-family:Thryomanes;">" or other non-existing fonts. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Update: I'm now on a different computer and no longer see the problem even though it's basically the same system, so I suspect maybe it was all just some kind of problem with bad font installation on my end or something like that; so please don't worry too much about it; sorry for bothering you about it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:55, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The Nicholas Beale AfD

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Any further messages from NBeale will be deleted from my talk page without reply. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 23:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

---

Hi Rjanag. Thank you for taking trouble over the Nicholas Beale AfD. But as you now know, the analysis of the sources you posted, however much in good faith, contains serious errors and mis-statements and is influencing the debate, due to your hard-earned reputation as an Admin. I must respectfully ask you, per WP:BLP and your responsibilites as an Admin, to retract these errors and to do what you can to nullify the harm that they have done. Many thanks. NBeale (talk) 10:23, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

No. Do you go around telling everyone to retract their !vote because you don't agree with it? This is ridiculous. I tried my best to be polite coming into this AfD, yet you have still insisted on acting like a child. I have nothing more to say to this request. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 16:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

And before you go crying about my "personal attacks", take a look at the AfD—I'm not the only one who is appalled by your immature behavior here. If you can't see the overwhelming consensus against your crusade and can't take the hint, then there's nothing more I can do for you. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 16:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

If you want to vote delete when WP:AUTHOR is clearly met that is up to you. But you really should retract the manifestly false statements that you have made in your "analysis" of the sources. And grad students - however stressed - should not try to lecture grandfathers on "maturity" NBeale (talk) 23:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

[And you - should leave your place under that bridge and drop the shopping-bags. Man... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:10, 18 January 2010 (UTC)]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

July 2009 Ürümqi riots info for Chinese views

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner. I didn't do much wiki editing over the break, but I've been doing way too much eding for the Haiti earthquake articles over the last week. I put together some info that could be used on this temporary page User:David_Straub/urumqiriotsedit. I think the main problem with the Urumqi riots at the moment is that it includes almost no information concerning government claims that the riots were orchestrated by a terrorist separatist group in Xinjiang. I don't believe the claims of the government, but most Chinese do. I think that adding one section that explains the views of the government by using articles from mouthpiece sources such as the China Daily would both informative and at least alleviate some of the concerns of Chinese that their views be heard. But I won't worry that this is endorsing their views. I think it is just more likely to reveal how ridiculous their claims are. Review what I put together and let me know what you think/want to do with it. I'm a little busy right now, so if you want to add some of the text to the main article, feel free to do so.

Actually, I down loaded an pirated copy of Colin Legerton's book, but I didn't read it yet. He's in CEUS. I took a class with him last year.

Take care. David Straub (talk) 20:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for putting this together. To be honest, right now it looks like most of that information is more appropriate in the East Turkestan Islamic Movement article, as most of it is about ETIM and the history of ETIM rather than its putative involvement in the riots, and many of the China Daily/Xinhua articles you found don't actually say much about the riots beyond what's already in the WP article:

• Xinjiang riot hits regional anti-terror nerve just says that WUC might be affiliated with ETIM. (And that statement is sourced to Rohan Gunarata, about whom I remember Gardner Bovingdon had some titillating things to say ;) ). Other than the WUC-ETIM connection, it has little to say about the July riots.
• World Uyghur Congress behind Xinjiang violence: expert Just says that WUC instigated the riot, which is already detailed in the WP article (mostly in the second paragraph of the "immediate causes" section). I recall there used to be more about this in the article (I think there was a whole paragraph on stuff like the "something big will happen" phone conversation, or whatever (update: after some digging, it looks like I removed the "do something big" because the sentence it was in was plagiarized, and I never got around to re-adding it)), and it was gradually trimmed down as time gave us better perspective on all of it. This particular China Daily piece would be a useful reference to add to the section, but I don't think it has a lot of actual new content that needs to be added.
• Urumqi riots part of plan to help Al-Qaida Says that the riots were instigated by separatists and that WUC is affiliated with Al-Qaeda. The first point is already in the article; the second can be added.
• Al-Qaeda threatens Chinese abroad: covered in the International Reactions section

rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:07, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Made some additions, mostly of the terrorist connection stuff (since I think the rest of the stuff is either already covered, or more appropriate in the ETIM article which is now linked from this section). To be honest, for most of the summer I was pretty much ignoring the terrorism stuff because POV-pushers repeatedly trying to add the article to "Terrorism" and "Terrorist attacks" categories were leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Looking back now, it does look like you're correct to point out that some of that has gotten left out of the article, but at the same time I think there's only so much that can be said (essentially "the government says the riots were premeditated by terrorists and they're connected with international terrorist networks) and I don't think a whole section can be made out of it without repeating ourselves a lot. (Or becoming a mouthpiece for the crazy speculative stuff that was going on in forums in July, like "the rioters had sneakers on so they must have been PLANNING to riot"). rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The article looks much better. Good job. I think the material added does balance out the article. We don't have to respect the views of the Chinese government and most Chinese, but it is important that their views are at least represented.David Straub (talk) 02:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree that it looks better, and I appreciate your taking the effort to find that material (and to press me to get it cleaned up!). Best, rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 02:44, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Template code

I'd like to add some new fields to Template:Infobox_ship_begin but I forgot where they hide the code. Any chance you could point me to the right page so I can fiddle around with a copy of the code in my sandbox? I seem to recall you helped me out with this one other time. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 11:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm, it looks like it's Template:WPMILHIST Infobox style but I'm not sure yet; will have to do some snooping around this afternoon. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 16:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look at that for me, Rj. As it happens, another guy has now directed me to the relevant templates, so please don't waste any more time on it :) Gatoclass (talk) 16:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Foreign Language Articles

For the record, your deletion of Matheus Lundberg was inappropriate, we don't delete articles just because they're not in English, they should be listed at Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English and either deleted if they're inappropriate, or kept for two weeks to see if someone translates it, then listed for deletion. I'm not going to say restore it, but I find it strange that as an administrator you're unaware of the accepted practices for such a situation--Jac16888^Talk 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I already commented on this at the bottom of WP:RD/L. I am aware of the accepted practices, and the article was "inappropriate", as you say above. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:15, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

erasing everything

Erasing everything doesn't help with pinpointing the problem. Do certain words frighten you. Fear is very understandable. --Neptunerover (talk) 01:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:TALK, users have the right to erase whatever they want on their own talkpage. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Neptunerover, there is no problem for me to pinpoint, I'm not even really interested in this discussion (indeed, I didn't read the one that triggered it so I don't even really know what you're talking about). I am not "frightened" by anything, but as someone who worked in community mental health services for several years I am very offended by your inappropriate comments about users' mental health.

Since whatever problem you have is not mine to deal with, there is no need for you to respond further here. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 02:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Without knowing what triggered the discussion, why would you then delete it (from the other page) and then say it's not your problem to deal with? But you did. You deleted it twice. I'm sorry for not realising the possible offensiveness of referring to sock puppet as possibly being confounded by mental problems. Maybe I should not have used the charged term. I really didn't know that anyone would be so offended. --Neptunerover (talk) 02:17, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Hats

I own a bunch of these hats, but I don't know what they are called. Doppa sounds Persian and Tubeteika definitely does not. It sounds more Turkish. I think the difference is that the Tubeteika is round and the Doppa is squarish, which I think can be folded up. I've seen them both all over Central Asia. I bet there are many different types and names, so I wouldn't merge the articles just based on name, unless someone else can verify they are the same thing. Ask User:Otebig. He studied Kazakh. He might know. User:Xhancock might also know. They are both IU graduate students. David Straub (talk) 04:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I just reposted this question at Firespeaker's talk page - he's worked on a lot of Central Asian cultural articles, and should have some idea. Otebig (talk) 23:39, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Template:Collapse top

Hi. I gather with this, you were attempting to make an optional title, perhaps defaulting to "Extended content" if not filled in. Unfortunately, it seems that the title is not optional. With or without substitution, it now centers {{{title}}} if no parameter is supplied.

Extended content

Are you able to fix that so that "Extended content" continues to show if a title is not specified? I would if I could, but I'm afraid that templates are not my thing. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about the poor edit summary on that. Actually I was trying to make it work if you put the title in a |title= parameter (since previously it only worked with a numbered parameter, e.g. {{collapse top|Stuff}} rather than {{collapse top|title=stuff}}. Anyway, I just added a pipe which should (hopefully) fix it. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 16:04, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

You're not exactly speaking my language, but "which should (hopefully) fix it" I can follow. :D Thanks. Now it doesn't say "extended content",though, which was probably useful for people not familiar with collapse boxes. Is it possible to have it default to that if nothing else is supplied? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah, good catch. I think this should fix it. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 16:22, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Awesome! Thanks. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:AUTH

I raised the issue before Beale did as I say on the talk page. Also, if you believe I have vested interest in Beale, I can send an e-mail to you to verify my real identity. Common sense is a good thing, but some tightening of the sentence to avoid future misunderstandings would make sense, don't you think? Vesal (talk) 13:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation! As to Beale, my stance was a weak keep a few AFDs ago, but with each repeated process I find the case for delete more and more compelling; I didn't take a position this time. Vesal (talk) 13:28, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

tx

--Epeefleche (talk) 18:18, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Seil Kim (tenor)

Yeah. I see what you mean. Bearian (talk) 02:54, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

PS I love the neat Admin actions stats on your user page. How do I get the template or script for that? Bearian (talk) 02:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm...it's been a while since I put that up and I remember the template itself is something of a mess. But if my memory serves me, I think it's made by creating a subpage of User:Rjanag/adminbars (for example, mine is at User:Rjanag/adminbars/Rjanag).

The numbers itself aren't updated automatically (I left a proposal a long while ago to do such, but never got a response); there is a bot that updates Template:adminstats, and I just copy my numbers from that (Template:adminstats/Rjanag) into User:Rjanag/adminbars/Rjanag. It looks like {{adminstats}} doesn't have helpful instructions up, but basically I think you just put {{adminstats|Bearian}} on your userpage and then the bot will create your stats. Once your stats are created (should be at Template:Adminstats/Bearian) then you could just copy them to User:Rjanag/adminbars/Bearian in a fashion similar to mine.

(as a caveat, though, it seems that the bot hasn't updated my adminstats in a while, so I'm not sure what's up with it.)

rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 04:18, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Looking back, that was a pretty convoluted response. The basic steps, I think, should be:

1. Put {{adminstats|Bearian}} on your userpage
2. Wait for bot to create Template:Adminstats/Bearian
3. Copy the numbers from that page into User:Rjanag/adminbars/Bearian, in a similar format as User:Rjanag/adminbars/Rjanag. Should look something like:

{{User:Rjanag/adminbars/core
|edits=
|ed=
|created=
|deleted=
|restored=
|blocked=
|protected=
|unprotected=
|rights=
|reblock=
|modify=
|user={{SUBPAGENAME}}}}
{{show|Admin stats|{{Template:Adminstats/Bearian}}}}

rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 04:20, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar for your thankless but vital efforts

	The Working Man's Barnstar
	The Working Man's Barnstar may be awarded to those who work tirelessly and endlessly on the more laborious or repetitive of Wikipedia tasks. This barnstar is awarded to Rjanag, for his efforts in cleaning up redirects and other thankless tasks. On behalf of the Wikipedia community. Thank you. Ikip 09:40, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

July 2009 Ürümqi riots (Vmenkov)

Thanks for the invitation to comment on that article, but, after reading it, I don't think I can suggest any meaningful improvement or offer any meaningful criticism.

Well, OK, there is this one sentence, with a reference to a paper by Dru Gladney: "China's minority policy treats Uyghurs as a 'national minority' rather than an indigenous group." I am sure Dr. Gladney's paper (which I did not look at) probably explains what is meant by these words - he is a major writer on these issues, after all. But to a casual reader this statement sounds rather cryptic. I think that to an average person an "indigenous group" simply is an "ethnic minority" that is officially recognized as having a long-term association with a certain geographic area, and is officially granted certain special rights on account of that association. One would think that the (official) status of the Weiwu'er minzu in PRC -- with the XUAR on the maps, a 维吾尔民族简史 publsihed, an official bilingualism of sorts, and the policy of appointing members of the "titular nationality" to the (possibly figurehead) leadership positions in the region -- makes them just as "officially indigenous" to the region as the Nisga'a are to the Nass River Valley or the Buryats to Buryatia. So if I were to write this, I would perhaps try to explain what Gladney's dichotomy means.

Thinking of it, the preceding sentence "Uyghurs believe their ancestors were indigenous to the area, whereas government policy considers present-day Xinjiang to have belonged to China since the Han Dynasty", with its "whereas", implies a contradiction of the two point of views, even if it does not explicitly say that there is one. I certainly can imagine some kind of 维吾尔民族简史 talking about 我国维吾尔民族 happily living in the area in 100 BC (or wherever), in such-and-such commandery of the Western Han Dynasty empire...

Please feel free to ignore these comments, or to move them to an appropriate talk page elsewhere.

On an unrelated issue: could you insert proper Uyghur letters into Musa Sayrami, Yaqub Beg, Afaq Khoja, and Muzat River, sometimes when/if you have a chance? Official bilingualism or not, my Atlas of Xinjiang certainly does not have any 少数民族文字 in it! Vmenkov (talk) 12:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

That's a good point, it is a very complex paper, and I've kind of taken the sentence out of context (I was trying to avoid giving Gladney too much weight by going into a ton of detail on it). I'll try to see if I can explain it better—it's always tough to strike a balance between brevity and clarify!

By the way, I've had a go at the Uyghur names. Some require a bit of guesswork, since Romanizations of Uyghur are not consistent throughout history (for example, the "a" in "Muzat River" could be either ئا or ئە, which in ULY are written a and e respectively but have often just both been written a). The only one I couldn't figure out just yet is Musa Sayrami (it could just be that the macrons are confusing me, but also it's a pretty old name), so I might have to ask a friend for help with that one. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for Syrami and others! I was surprised to see that for Muza(r)t there are two spellings - with and without an r - in Uyghur as well; I thought it was an artefact of careless transcriptions. And there is even an interwiki, ug:مۇزات دەرياسى - of course, to a perfectly empty page! Vmenkov (talk) 01:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm, you are probably right then. I pretty much just guessed Uyghur names based on the Latin transcriptions and on the Chinese, which often (but not always) are derived from the Uyghur in a more or less systematic way. I hadn't even noticed the interwiki. But now that you've pointed that out, I corrected the Muzat transcription to match what's in the interwiki, which is more reliable. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Does this help clarify the Gladney quote? rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 00:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

FAC clarification

Nah, man, no problem. "These disagreements have sometimes led to violence and ethnic clashes, such as the 1997 Ghulja Incident and the 2008 Kashgar attack, as well as the more widespread 2008 Uyghur unrest preceding the Olympic Games in Beijing." No cite for that sentence. Thanks and good luck :) Aaroncrick (talk) 21:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you.

Thanks for your comment on my talk page. It's taken ages to reply, sorry; I've been really busy as of late. I know this is taking your words more literally than meant, but when you say "it is what separates the (wo)men from the beasts" it makes me wonder if other animals that feel love actually get such feelings. I think they probably do. Apes are genetically close to us so I'm guessing they do. Something I now want to reaserch one day. :) Threewords,eightletters... (talk) 05:41, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Rjanag. You have new messages at Dabomb87's talk page.
Message added 13:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Dabomb87 (talk) 13:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

You are just terrible

Your suggestion would be welcome as to how to present something fair and citable. There is a very caustic quote from Pullum in this Elements of Style wikipedia entry - if you look around the web, you'll see it's not necessarily shared by everyone, and indeed it is not. I have merely cited one of numerous examples of someone (who happens to be an English professor of many years, whether notable to you or not) who doesn't share it and his well-reasoned opinion as to why, followed by the numerous opinions of others in the blod entry

I am welcome to any language you can put in which accurately reflects this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.234.145.123 (talk) 16:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Education in China

Why did you remove well-referenced information with this edit? And cite some unknown Chinese phrase as the reason for doing so. What does 填鸭子 mean, by the way? If there is some reliable source for China offering a liberal education in its schools, please cite it. If you feel the information from the New York Times is over-simplified, please try to do better, but please don't remove well-sourced information. Fred Talk 22:24, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

填鸭子 means "feeding the duck", and refers to the memorization-based education that was common there (and still is common, although it's becoming less and less so).

As for sources that attest to the development of the education system in recent years, here are just a few (not all are available online easily, you may need to go through a database or library):

• Brandenburg, Uwe; Zhu Jiani (2007). "Higher education in China in light of massification and demographic change: lessons to be learned for Germany". Centre for Higher Education Development.
• Kirby, William C. (2008). "On Chinese, European & American universities". Daedalus 137(3). pp. 139-46. (this one in particular has a lot on the topic.)
• Li Yao; Whalley, John; Zhang Shunming; Zhao Xiliang (2008). "The higher educational transformation of China and its global implications". National Bureau of Economic Research Working Paper 13849.

Granted, there is no doubt that a lot of classes in China still focus on memorization and do not develop critical thinking skills. Support for that view can be found in sources such as the following:

• Farrell, Diana; Grant, Andrew J. (2005). "China's looming talent shortage". McKinsey Quarterly (4). pp. 70-9.
• Hulbert, Anne (1 April 2007). "Re-education". The New York Times. (mostly parroting the source above)
• Anecdotal evidence—for example, in my own experience teaching in China I often encountered students with poor critical thinking skills, the cause of which was in no small part their university education.

But, regardless of these sources, it would be an error to claim, as your edit did, that this education style is the only one in China, or that Chinese educators actively and intentionally discourage critical thinking. In many ways, past practices that weren't conducive to critical thinking were a result of poor teaching methods, not actively stamping it out (the exception, of course, is education under the Maoist era, when universities were pretty much Party indoctrination centers.) Also, the mere fact that the government is placing such a strong interest in improving critical-thinking education (as evidenced by some of the sources above, and by many recent articles in Chinese Education and Society) speaks against the claim that they actively suppress critical thinking.

Also, the fact that you put that reference in the "education policy" is definitely a problem—it makes it seem as if you're trying to say that the lawmakers are passing down rules from above, legislation telling teachers "Don't let your students have critical thinking!" That is certainly not the case. And the blunt way you worded it and stuck it in comes off as, at best, a strange non-sequitur, and at worst a mean-spirited jab at China (I'm not saying you're mean-spirited, just that the wording of that edit could come off as such to a reader.) Finally, the article itself seems to be based very much on random interviews and personal impressions. That doesn't make it un-reliable, but it does make it far from being a scholarly source like most of the ones I listed above. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, the source is shaky; after all, it is a letter backed by general impressions of the reporter with a few facts thrown in. The issue is not memorization, I think that IS an issue from the past. It is the emphasis on technical skills. Which is a policy issue. I'll check out your references though. Fred Talk 22:56, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll concede that there might be articles in Chinese Education and Society which might contain information regarding Chinese educational policy, but you don't cite any; you just wave at it. Is there any information in it that Chinese educational policy does not emphasize conformity? Fred Talk 15:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

• Brandenburg, Uwe; Zhu Jiani (2007). "Higher education in China in light of massification and demographic change: lessons to be learned for Germany". Centre for Higher Education Development does not seem to contain any information that addresses the questions raised by The New York Times article. Perhaps it could be used to support a content addition which addresses an increased commitment to mass education and the delivery of educational services to an aging Chinese population. Fred Talk 15:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

• Li Yao; Whalley, John; Zhang Shunming; Zhao Xiliang (2008). "The higher educational transformation of China and its global implications". National Bureau of Economic Research Working Paper 13849: "Reflecting China's commitment to continued high growth through quality upgrading and the production of ideas and intellectual property as set out in both the 10th (2001-2005) and 11th (2006-2010) five-year plans, this transformation focuses on major new resource commitments to tertiary education and also embodies significant changes in organizational form" from the summary, also does not address the questions raised by the Times article because it addresses only the desire for "production of ideas", not any policy which has a rational connection with an educational environment where students might be educated in a way which might produce an educated class capable of producing ideas, at least ideas other than patents. Fred Talk 15:49, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you have simply thrown a list of references to Chinese education up without pointing out any information from a reliable source which contradicts or negates the information in the Times article. Fred Talk 15:49, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Did you read the whole articles, or just the abstracts? I'm pretty sure they both talk about trying to improve education quality (probably in sections pertaining to things like Project 211); plus, the Kirby article is entirely about education and critical thinking, and it seems you have not read it yet (admittedly, it's a bit hard to get access to). I've also seen Kirby speak and he makes essentially the same point. I apologize that the articles are long and it's been a while since I read them, so I don't know the exact locations of everything within them.

And in any case, that still doesn't change the fact that your edit came across as POV and was simply the wrong way to bring up an issue like this. Yes, you are right that education has the sort of problems you were mentioning, and you were right that they should be addressed in the article somewhere (with references such as Farrel & Grant discussing that problem and the Chinese interest in addressing it); but presenting it as if it's a black-and-white thing, a problem which exists at 100% of classrooms and is intentionally created by policy, is both oversimplified and wrong. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 16:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, if you want to try to make points about policy, you should consider reading the actual education policy and higher education policy (those links are English translations). As you can see, nothing in those policies specifically says to squash critical thinking. Indeed, the only thing that might support the point you seem to be making is parts of Article 16 of the HE policy, which do mostly stress skills, but at the same time it doesn't say "don't encourage critical thinking":

"(2) undergraduate education should enable students to systematically master the basic theory and basic knowledge necessary for the respective discipline and specialty, master the basic skills, techniques and related know-how necessary for the respective specialty and acquire initial capability for the practical work and research work of the respective specialty;"

You are welcome to snoop around the Ministry of Education website, which contains a whole lot of materials (but it's not well-organized, so things are hard to find). For example, this summary of higher education illustrates how much they are concerned with improving teaching quality and teaching methods (which in turn reflects an interest in improving education quality, although I guess an argument could be made that they're really just interested in finding methods to cram even more knowledge into the duck without teaching critical thinking...but, in my humble opinion, that's not likely).

Also, in some ways (and I hinted at this above as well), the very effort government officials are putting forth to promote better education, particularly critical-thinking education, reflects both the existing problems and the education ministry's stance on them (i.e., it demonstrates that they don't want to perpetuate this problem, they want to solve it, they might just have always done the best jot—it's an issue of will vs. capacity, do they lack the will to improve education, or do they simply lack the capacity?). The "Re-education" article, which I have now added a link for above, contains quite a lot about this. The immediate impression you get at the beginning of the article is similar to the impression your newer article gives (that education in China has flaws), but really much of that article illustrates the government's recognition of the need to improve it—the specific example this article uses, for the most part, is the founding of the HSYLC program for high school students, which I can attest is still running (I know someone who taught there this summer). That article also contains a pretty direct quotation about this:

"Even as American educators seek to emulate Asian pedagogy — a test-centered ethos and a rigorous focus on math, science and engineering — Chinese educators are trying to blend a Western emphasis on critical thinking, versatility and leadership into their own traditions."

Just below that quote it also mentions suzhi jiaoyu, or "character education"/"all-around education". This is an important concept; if you read any Chinese articles about education you will encounter it all over the place (素质教育). Sometimes it is used to mean something that is not really the same as critical thinking (for example, improving someones' "moral character"), but often it does refer to critical thinking skills, which the government recognizes are essential if it wants to become an economic powerhouse that doesn't rely so much on exports (i.e., if they want to thrive in the consumer economy and information/services economy, rather than just in manufacturing). The very existence of such a term, and the amount it gets thrown around, is yet another bit of evidence that education is not just all about job skills. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 16:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Re nudge

Yup, I saw, I was expecting Tim to take care of it ;) It looks like there's been some other activity there, and its currently endorsed. Let me know if you need anything else from me. Nathan ^T 18:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Elements of Style

Hello - what offense has the latest attempt to edit generated? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.234.144.40 (talk) 22:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Already left a message at your talk page. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

See my latest - thanks.

So, there's no way to engage in a chat huh?

I'm not sure what you mean. You mean a real-time chat over IRC? rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 23:06, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

ah well...

favor? close it (withdrawn) per WP:WHATEVER Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I've closed it. Although I think in the case of withdrawing your own AFD, it's acceptable to close it yourself (you just add {{subst:afd top}} and {{subst:afd bottom}}, remove the afd tag from the article, and add {{oldafdfull}} to the talk page). I've certainly withdrawn and closed several of my own AfDs before. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 05:59, 29 January 2010 (UTC)