Talk:John Lennon

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Bigger Than Jesus -- own page?

Does anyone else think that, while the "Beatles are bigger than Jesus" statement and ensuing furor is important, it overtakes the article a bit. Perhaps we can edit down the mention on this page, and create a page devoted to the full details, quotes, fall out? Hotcop2 (talk) 16:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Plus there's more that can be said. I've already been thinking "The Jesus Controversy" would make a good article in its own right and I'd probably put something into expanding it if someone creates a stub from the excess in the Lennon article. PL290 (talk) 16:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Would we be able to hotlink the entire quote: "The Beatles are more popular than Jesus" to go to a page called "John Lennon: Beatles/Jesus Controversy"? Hotcop2 (talk) 19:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks PL for fixing those links! Hotcop2 (talk) 19:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The link to the Jesus controversy article should be changed. The link is on the words "We're more popular than Jesus now", but that creates an Easter Egg where the user is unlikely to know where the link leads without actually clicking it to open the page. The link ought to be closer to the name of the article, or at least something that includes the word controversy. I couldn't come up with something that uses the actual article title; the best I could do was something like "Lennon made some controversial comments about Jesus and Christianity ...", and I didn't think that was good enough. Suggestions? — John Cardinal (talk) 21:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Good point—how about "The reaction that occurred five months later when Lennon's words were quoted by American teen magazine..."? PL290 (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Better, but I think if the article title includes the word "controversy", the link would be better with it, too. How about, "Lennon's comments created a controversy when quoted by American teen magazine..."? — John Cardinal (talk) 22:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that works better. So I've reworded it, ready for its link. Hotcop2 (talk) 22:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

That's good—and the rewording is very good too, introducing a mention of both the lack of UK concern at the remarks, and the violence of the US reaction, without getting bogged down in detail. I'll look at adding some other stuff to the new page sometime. PL290 (talk) 08:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree with PL290, nice job. — John Cardinal (talk) 13:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you put it as Beatles are more popular than Jesus controversy or Beatles-Jesus popularity controversy. Or whatever in the text. I added the article to section title. Kasaalan (talk) 03:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I see this often referred to as "The Christ Statement". GabeMc (talk) 21:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I suggest merging John Ono Lennon II to this page. I'm unable to find a notability guideline for fetuses (...) but I think WP:NOTINHERETED applies quite well here. Note that children of famous people who have passed into the plane of the living don't even get a page just for being the child of a celebrity (Brooklyn Beckham and Jason Allen Alexander get piped to their parents for example). I also think WP:ONEEVENT applies. Conical Johnson (talk) 03:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the page is long enough (perhaps too long) and the link to the Ono Lennon II page is sufficient. My .02 Hotcop2 (talk) 00:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

But you must admit that this fetus does not satisfy the guidelines for notability. I'm ok with deletion or merging to Yoko Ono, but simply leaving the page would not be reasonable in my opinion. Conical Johnson (talk) 03:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, we must admit that. My own feeling is that the guidelines you cite support the idea that it should be deleted. The fact of the pregnancy and miscarriage is important to both the Lennon and Ono articles (although I notice the latter currently omits to mention it), but I'm not sure about the other details. I'd suggest proposing deletion rather than merger, to see if anyone produces a valid justification for keeping it. If deletion is successfully contested, my feeling is that Yoko Ono might be a better merge target; it has a section on aspects/implications of her and Cynthia Lennon's characters/actions, and the pregnancy occurred while Lennon was married to Cynthia. PL290 (talk) 08:50, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I didn't even know that page linked up. If it must be merged, the Y.O. page is more appropriate, Let's not separate mother and child... Hotcop2 (talk) 13:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I think everyone can agree this is a unique case. Not many celebrity children get time on their parents' albums, much less mentions (usually lengthy) in every major biography about them, and also in every major interview (Rolling Stone, Playboy and others) they gave to the press. This is one who was... and on top of that wasn't born; didn't get to be. I think Conical Johnson is overlooking these factors in "notability", and I find the "too long" suggestion a bit dubious for related reasons. ONEEVENT doesn't apply, as the unborn child played a role in several things (Lennon's relationships with Ono and his wife and son, his public perception, two albums, the Beatles' later history). I could see a merger into Yoko Ono, as part of her relationship with her (to-be) husband, if nothing else will satisfy... but I think it's unnecessary. Zephyrad (talk) 15:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I have to admit, it's nice to hear an articulated discussion on that page for once. Some people have just flipped out in the past, over the nature of the topic. Zephyrad (talk) 15:37, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think it can well be said that Britney Spears' kids and Michael Jackson's kids have been mentioned quite a bit more in press than John II, and they still are piped to their parents. ONEEVENT does apply, because even if (in your estimation) John II had a big impact on John senior, he is only notable for the single event of being miscarried. So the guideline seems to say that the event may be notable, but the fetus (dangerous to call it a person) is not. Since a page called "Miscarriage of John Lennon and Yoko Ono's first child" has a WP:SNOWBALL's chance in hell of getting past deletion, I think a merge really is in order.

I can't really see your assertion that John II had a big impact on John's life, when he is only barely mentioned on senior's page. Conical Johnson (talk) 01:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

What say you to a merge to Yoko Ono?

• Support Because of WP:NOTINHERITED and WP:ONEEVENT. Conical Johnson (talk) 01:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

• Support Hotcop2 (talk) 02:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
• Agree It's sometimes difficult here to balance human dignity against reporting facts, but Yoko Ono is the appropriate venue for this topic, with the appropriate tone. It should not be made more of than Ono has done herself, but even so some dignity to a lost life should prevail. Rodhullandemu 02:30, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
• Agree per everything Rodhullandemu has very thoughtfully expressed above. PL290 (talk) 08:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

• Agree It's a ridiculous subject for an article by itself but it does have relevance to the parent's articles. Richerman (talk) 13:33, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
• Support Per all above. Likewise, Jesse Presley is a redirect to Elvis Presley. I can't imagine any circumstance where an unborn child would have any notability separate from its parents or other close relative (in Elvis' case). freshacconci talktalk 21:45, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, merger completed. Conical Johnson (talk) 21:44, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Bad picture of john lennon, isn't there a better one...

that was a weird period of his life when he just got off drugs and stuff isn't there a better picture we could use? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 00:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

We are limited mostly to uncopyrighted images; however, this is representative of a time in Lennon's life and should not be discarded simply because it does not depict him in the best light. Remember, we are an encyclopedia and not a hagiography, although the article might benefit from a wider range of free images, if such can be found. Rodhullandemu 00:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

well aesthetically you should have a better picture than this. You read an encyclopedia, they care about aesthetics and don't just post some awkward random photo of albert einstine with his eyes closed... i'm not saying we should censor the photo, put the photo on the page about his "bed for peace protest" page, but i'm just saying this photo doesn't represents him very well as a person and it looks awkward...

in other words this photo doesn't look encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 00:51, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Aesthetics have sometimes to take a back seat to the mission of Wikipedia to be a "free-content" encyclopedia- that's "free of copyright", not as in "free beer". Printed encyclopedias can be sold, and part of their operating costs include fees for use of copyrighted images. We don't have that luxury. As for as the image goes, I think it is of reasonable quality and depicts Lennon at a pivotal time in his history, and therefore should remain. As I said above, other free images would be welcome. Have you got a TARDIS and a camera? ~~

The point is we are mostly limited to commons and contributions. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/John_Lennon So only ones not used are http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lennon_apartment.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prague_-_John_Lennons_Wall.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lennon_imagine.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Imagine_Memorial.jpg Kasaalan (talk) 22:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Chapman

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

After nearly three weeks, there's no serious contention that Chapman should not be included (since we quite plainly do deal, in detail, with evil-doers throughout the encyclopedia) and nothing to be gained by further discussion, as consensus has become quite apparent. It's bugger all to do with censorship as this is a matter of historical record, and no new arguments are being presented. Rodhullandemu 01:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

---

I propose that Chapman's name should not appear on the page. Continuing to propagate his fame has no purpose other than to make it apparent to other talent-less American loonies that they can likewise gain great fame by killing a defenceless celebrity. Certainly some basic details of the killing should appear on the page, but advertising the killer's name is simply playing into his hands. B. Fairbairn (talk) 05:28, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - Wikipedia is not censored. — John Cardinal (talk) 06:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

It is not censorship, it is common-sense. You are granting recognition to a mental deficient for committing a despicable act. B. Fairbairn (talk) 07:04, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - consider, in fact, how you are granting that very recognition by attempting this action. But whether or not you personally consider it common sense, that would indeed be censorship and Wikipedia is not censored. Please see WP:NOTCENSORED. PL290 (talk) 10:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia IS censored. Unsubstantiated allegations are removed from wikipedia. Images that do not meet the approval of wiki's so-called administrators are removed. Anything that contradicts wiki policy is censored.

And... that is a good thing. Something that maybe we need more of!

According to WP:NOTCENSORED, "Content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Wikipedia policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's servers are hosted, will also be removed."

See, it is censored. Have a think about that. B. Fairbairn (talk) 11:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - Mark David Chapman is notable, and he's notable for shooting Lennon. We do not exclude notable facts because someone doesn't like it. --Evb-wiki (talk) 13:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose such a nonsensical suggestion. Should Wikipedia also delete all references to - hell, entire articles about - Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden or other evil bastards just 'cause they did things that were, y'know, EVIL? Vonbontee (talk) 07:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't like to mention his name either. Though WP:NOTCENSORED, I do not WP:CENSOR facts or names, mentioning a crime not necessarily advertises it, it is not sure who is behind the assassin. Possibly it was not a "loonatic job" and it was a Intelligence Agency assasination cover up scenario for the world through mass media. Why do you think the murderer still not talks. Did JFK or Yitzhak Rabin assassinated by some loonatics too. Kasaalan (talk) 03:41, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - It's a widely known fact, and wikipedia is about facts. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:54, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Beatles arriving in America

The image captioned "Lennon, left, and the rest of The Beatles arriving in the US in 1964" should be removed, for two reasons: 1) Another image on the same page is a blow-up of this image; 2) The mention of the US and the inclusion of the 'arriving in the US' images is inappropriate for the Beatles, who were born and raised in the UK, not the US. The Beatles travelled to numerous countries - how about including images for the Beatles arriving in other countries as well.
Only one Beatle eventually ended up living in the US (and we know what happened to him). B. Fairbairn (talk) 12:03, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you find a picture that you feel would better illustrate that particular section ("The Beatles: 1957–70") and then make a proposal here to replace the existing one. Then we can make judgement on which is better. Bluewave (talk) 14:41, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I do not understand why my edit has been removed

From the beginning, the new relationship was rather bizarre. In a 1981 interview, Ono revealed, "I used to say to [Lennon], ‘I think you’re a closet fag, you know.’ Because after we started to live together, John would say to me, ‘Do you know why I like you? Because you look like a bloke in drag.’" See New York Magazine, May 25, 1981, 38 [1]

In my opinion, it is an important quotation, as it sheds light on the nature of John's and Yoko's relationship. Wikiwiserick (talk) 14:21, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

First, who is stating that the "the new relationship was rather bizarre"? You? That would be an opinion, thus not WP:NPOV. Second, shedding "light on the nature of John's and Yoko's relationship" falls under WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. In other words, you are taking a published source to present an original thesis. freshacconci talktalk 14:26, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the quote reads like typical Ono/Lennon banter. I don't think it sheds light on anything except their style of humour. Bluewave (talk) 14:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC) Oh, and the use of the word "revealed" is also indicative of the editor putting a particular interpretation on it...as though Ono must be giving away some secret, not just a light-hearted remark. Bluewave (talk) 14:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Many are of the opinion that their relationship was rather bizarre. According to The Mirror, October 1, 2000, "Cynthia was not the only one hurt by John and Yoko's bizarre relationship." Why should Ono's own statement fall under WP:OR and WP:SYNTH? That's a mystery to me. Wikiwiserick (talk) 14:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

What about this new version of the paragraph:

From the beginning, the new relationship was rather bizarre. In a 1981 interview, Ono light-heartedly remarked, "I used to say to [Lennon], ‘I think you’re a closet fag, you know.’ Because after we started to live together, John would say to me, ‘Do you know why I like you? Because you look like a bloke in drag.’" See New York Magazine, May 25, 1981, 38 [2]. According to The Mirror, October 1, 2000, "Cynthia was not the only one hurt by John and Yoko's bizarre relationship."

Any opinions on this version? Wikiwiserick (talk) 14:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't really see the point of the paragraph. The statement is that their relationship was bizarre. However, I don't think the first quote really supports this...it might be more supportive of a statement that their relationship sometimes included some banter (but that would hardly be of note). The second statement does say that their relationship was bizarre, but it looks like the kind of adjective just chucked in by a Mirror journalist to spice up the sentence a bit. It certainly doesn't give us any clue as to how this bizarreness manifested itself. Surely it's better for the article to chronicle the course of their relationship as accurately as possible, then leave it to the reader to decide whether they think it bizarre. Bluewave (talk) 18:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Here is an expanded version of the paragraph:

From the beginning, the new relationship was rather bizarre. In a 1981 interview, Ono light-heartedly remarked, "I used to say to [Lennon], ‘I think you’re a closet fag, you know.’ Because after we started to live together, John would say to me, ‘Do you know why I like you? Because you look like a bloke in drag.’" See New York Magazine, May 25, 1981, 38 [3]. According to The Mirror, October 1, 2000, "Cynthia was not the only one hurt by John and Yoko's bizarre relationship." Albert Harry Goldman wrote in his book, The Lives of John Lennon (1988, new ed. 2001), that Ono was regarded by Lennon as a “magical being who could solve all his problems”, but that this was a “grand illusion”, and that she openly cheated on Lennon with gigolos. Finally “both he and Yoko were burnt out from years of hard drugs, overwork, emotional breakdowns, quack cures, and bizarre diets, to say nothing of the effects of living constantly in the glare of the mass media (458). However, even after their separation, when they “were no longer collaborating as a team, they remained in constant communication. Their relationship had taken another bizarre turn. No longer able to live together, they found that they couldn’t live apart either.” See John Blaney, John Lennon: Listen to this Book (2005), 139.

This certainly supports the view that their relationship was bizarre. Therefore, I have included the new paragraph in the article. Wikiwiserick (talk) 01:27, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Revision

In a 1981 interview, Ono remarked, "I used to say to [Lennon], ‘I think you’re a closet fag, you know.’ Because after we started to live together, John would say to me, ‘Do you know why I like you? Because you look like a bloke in drag.’" New York Magazine, May 25, 1981, 38 [4] From the beginning, the new relationship was considered rather bizarre by some parties. The Mirror claimed on October 1, 2000, "Cynthia was not the only one hurt by John and Yoko's bizarre relationship." Albert Harry Goldman argued in his book titled The Lives of John Lennon (1988, new ed. 2001), that Ono was regarded by Lennon as a “magical being who could solve all his problems” though it was a “grand illusion”, she openly cheated on Lennon with gigolos and finally:

“both he and Yoko were burnt out from years of hard drugs, overwork, emotional breakdowns, quack cures, and bizarre diets, to say nothing of the effects of living constantly in the glare of the mass media (458). However, even after their separation, when they “were no longer collaborating as a team, they remained in constant communication. Their relationship had taken another bizarre turn. No longer able to live together, they found that they couldn’t live apart either.” John Blaney, John Lennon: Listen to this Book (2005), 139.

Well try not to insert "bizarre" as personal comment. I cannot comment on whether their relationship was bizarre or not, however Yoko's own comments are bizarre even as a humor in my sense. And try adding it as a 3rd party comment with WP:RS. Kasaalan (talk) 03:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Bad choices for music samples, I think I have a better idea for it...

Is there really a debate about whether A Day in The Life is ICONIC?~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by GabeMc (talk • contribs) 22:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree, A Day in the Life and Strawberry Fields are John's two best songs, and they are not mentioned on his page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.168.55 (talk) 05:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

First, this is the second time you've signed on anonymously and agreed with yourself. Second, this isn't a list of "John's best songs" or "John's best songs in John's opinion" or "John's best songs in your opinion" or in mine, or whatever. "A Day In The Life" is not iconic in the sense that "Imagine" or "Give Peace" is. Hotcop2 (talk) 23:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how to upload music samples, but isn't it true that the samples should be "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Imagine"? Musically, "Strawberry Fields Forever" is his most critically acclaimed song with even John Lennon himself saying that it was his "greatest musical achievement". And then "Imagine" lyrically is one of the most iconic/famous songs of all time (I believe). They also are more unique sonically then the other too when "In My Life" sounds like a lot of smokey robinson type songs or something and "A Day In The Life" needs the whole orchestra build up to be heard in full to really come across as great.

"A Day In The Life" doesn't sound good on a 30 sec edit, it's a song that has to be heard in full you know. "In My Life" is a song that some people I find get really personal about, and I have a feeling it's just one or two people who do everything they can to make sure it is included. I like these two songs, but I think, objectively, "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Imagine" are better and more representative songs of John Lennon.

What do you think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 04:54, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you. It may also be a good idea to mention the songs we provide samples of in the text. Strawberry Fields is already sampled on The Beatles, so there could be issues about using it here. How about Help! in its place? Imagine should be on it this page though. Deserted Cities (talk) 05:02, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

People shouldn't care if "Strawberry Fields Forever" is already sampled on the Beatles' page... If that is really a serious though "Help" is fine. "I Am The Walrus" also works too.

The use on another page isn't an issue. Each article's use of a non-free sample requires a non-free-use rationale to be stated which justifies its use in that specific article—the fact that a rationale exists for another article isn't a problem. Something that might help decide the right songs to use here would be to attempt to draft a rationale for each being considered, either here on the talk page or somewhere else. I say this because by definition, the "right" choice may perhaps be those songs for which there is the clearest justification. See WP:NFC for more information, and to see example rationales, click the song title at the top of the sample in any article. The rationales for The Beatles were recently tightened up to gain approval so I suggest you include those in examples you look at. PL290 (talk) 08:20, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how this works (licensing-wise), but "Give Peace A Chance" and "Imagine" are the logical choices for this page. Maybe every album page should also have a snippet or two, but again, I don't know the rules regarding the rights. Hotcop2 (talk) 13:16, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok...

Strawberry Fields Forever: -John Lennon says in the playboy interview it was his "greatest musical achievement with the Beatles". Paul McCartney also said it was his best beatle song too in interviews and has covered it at his own solo concerts. George Martin stated it was his favorite beatle song in many interviews. -Most acclaimed Beatle song by far along with Yesterday, A Day in the Life, and Hey Jude by critics and "best of" lists.

And Imagine should be one of them for lots of obvious reasons... It's sung all over the world. And lyrically it is similar "Give Peace a Chance" and has the same basic message really except musically it is a lot better and more critically/generally acclaimed.

Also, both of these songs are defenetly his top 5 musically/melodic best. Strawberry Fields Forever covers his poetry lyrics and beatle period pretty well and Imagine covers his really political blunt lyric style and solo period.

I have sources for the interviews and critic claims.

It's hard though to put scientifically how one piece of art is better than another, but aesthetically I think it's true that "Strawberry Fields Forever" was his best and most original/defining melody and "Imagine" his best solo work/social activist piece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk • contribs)

Alright so it seems consensus is to switch to SFF and Imagine. I'd do it myself, but I don't know how to create the audio samples. Deserted Cities (talk) 05:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I think we can justify any of the songs mentioned. If the article text and rationales can indeed be made to justify it, I suggest we aim for all three ("Imagine", GPAC and SFF) as replacements for the current two. I would say "Imagine" stands out as the essential, iconic, number one choice. Both GPAC and SFF are clearly good additional candidates; currently though, the article makes not a single mention of SFF. Before a sample of that song could be justified, this shortcoming would need to be addressed, so perhaps the IP editor volunteering sources above would like to provide those in any case. I've added a sample of "Imagine"; per WP:NFC we're only allowed 10%, which for "Imagine" gives us 18 seconds of a slow-tempo song—not time for many words! I think it's OK but if others want to suggest a change, no problem. I can add one for GPAC in due course; a sample already exists for SFF so it's just a matter of writing the GPAC and SFF rationales for use by this article. PL290 (talk) 11:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

A Day in the Life and In My Life aren't mentioned either. ~ DC (Talk|Edits) 18:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

No they aren't, and so in the event that they were retained, and their inclusion was challenged, it would be difficult to justify. PL290 (talk) 19:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Without Imagine (song) as a sample the page shouldn't be right. But Working Class Hero should also be added as one of his greatest and earliest activism work. Give Peace a Chance and Gimme Some Truth other songs deserves to be in. Kasaalan (talk) 03:31, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

just because there politcal songs doesn't mean they are his best. most of his poltically work are musically underwelming besides imagine of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 02:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Altho my previous "unconstructive" post was deleted, my point was, like too much info, too many songs would be overkill. I think we should add "Give Peace" but that's it. Hotcop2 (talk) 23:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

How about this, take out in my life and a day in the life, add imagine which covers his protest songwriting songs like give peace a chance and give me some truth, add in strawberry fields forever which covers his musical aesthetic songs you know. Isn't this better? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 21:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Well his latest efforts was uttermost important in his political life. 1 Imagine (song) 2 Working Class Hero 3 Give Peace a Chance 4 Gimme Some Truth 5 Happy Christmas (War Is Over) for political activism work as rating, not suggesting putting all samples together. I didn't listen all of Lennon's work so I cannot rank his all time songs, but I cannot consider Working Class Hero as overwhelming at all. Working Class Hero: The Definitive Lennon and Lennon Legend: The Very Best of John Lennon might be a good proof. Kasaalan (talk) 02:23, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Gimme Some Truth is not that important. Happy Xmas? You see, we'll never agree on all our personal favorites, so let's limit them to "huge societal impact" and we narrow it down to two (Woman Is The Nigger of the World not withstanding). Hotcop2 (talk) 02:37, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of Lennon's opinion of "Strawberry Fields", an assist has to go to George Martin for piecing together two separate (and slightly different) tapes with a linking bit in the middle which you can hear if you listen closely - John's voice drops in pitch slightly. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

What personal taste. I linked compilations for a reason. Working Class Hero: The Definitive Lennon and Lennon Legend: The Very Best of John Lennon is a good start as I said. Woman Is the Nigger of the World not bad, good music, lyrics depicting a social issue yet not anti-war activism. Also cannot top 1 Imagine (song) 2 Working Class Hero by any means. Kasaalan (talk) 13:17, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

The compilations (since his death there have been 8) are someone's opinion of what would sell at that given time (holiday-timed compilations include Happy X-mas). I didn't say YOUR personal taste, I was referring to all of our collective personal favorites. I like Woman, #9 Dream and Intuition, great songs but don't belong here. Even "Power To The People" has more cred than "Gimme Some Truth." This isn't a jukebox ;-) "Imagine" is what it is. "Give Peace A Chance" is credited as the generational anthem of the movement that helped stop a war. "Working Class Hero" may include the word fuckin, but hasn't transformed society. Hotcop2 (talk) 21:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Well it is "your own personal taste" so you are omitting Working Class Hero. Working Class Hero is some song to add. Whatever you say cannot change number 2 political song of Lennon. Kasaalan (talk) 14:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Working Class Hero is not so political; it's an observation about (his experience) growing up. And the compilation "Working Class Hero" was put together by EMI in conjunction with a 2007 BBC documentary of the same name about Lennon, which Ono didn't want to be seen and it was shelved. But the soundtrack was released because there was money to be made. That's the "politicalness" of Working Class Hero. Hotcop2 (talk) 19:18, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

If we put "Give Peace A Chance" near that god awful picture (toward the top in the empty space oposite the table of context) that pic wouldn't seem so bad. Hotcop2 (talk) 23:12, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

"Working Class Hero" is not that great, that's just a song that you like a lot for some personal reason. Personally, I would like to put "Across The Universe" and "I Am The Walrus" but I know objectively they don't top "Strawberry Fields Forever" or "Imagine". "Imagine" should defenitly be one because of the immense popularity to it and the lots of references to it in popular culture in general. But most people are missing the point. Music isn't about lyrics, meaning, or effect on politics. What "Strawberry Fields Forever" is is one of Lennon's best melody. John Lennon told George Martin how he wanted the orchestral instruments to sound and suggested the merging of the folk take with the brass instrument take, etc. [IP editor]

We can check, notable covers, compilations, popularity, public debates, ... of Lennon's political activism songs. Do I Am The Walrus or Across The Universe political activism songs, no. They are Beatles time songs, possibly more or less contributed by other members. So how can you even compare them, when I rank political activism songs of his solo career. 1 Imagine (song) and 2 Working Class Hero are. So in political ranking they are 1 and 2. Kasaalan (talk) 20:15, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you're focused on "political" songs too much. These little snippets are designed to give an overview of an artist's most popular songs, for whatever reason. Lennon has A LOT of popular songs. We can't include everything. Hotcop2 (talk) 23:10, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

You don't need more than one lennon political song to represent lennon's political songs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 04:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I think John's page needs a third song mentioned, I think Instant Karma! should be it. GabeMc (talk) 21:17, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think it should be either "#9 Dream" or "Tight Ass" (from Mind Games)Hotcop2 (talk) 23:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

. Why is Paul's page so top-heavey but John's is not?~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by GabeMc (talk • contribs) 23:28, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

It might have something to do with McCartney living 30 years longer and having a much more active and fruitful career than Lennon. Hotcop2 (talk) 00:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

But Paul has only had two hit songs in the US since John was killed, and one, his last hit EVER was co-written with Michael Jackson, 1982's Ebony and Ivory was the last hit song Paul EVER had in America which he wrote himself, 28 years ago. With just a 5-year solo career John sold 14 million RIAA certified albums, Paul has sold 15.5 in 40 years. http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?resultpage=2&table=tblTopArt&action= SO who was really more succsessful? GabeMc (talk) 21:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

(Moved comments to the end of the section; they were inserted at the top which is not how this is supposed to work.)

Delete everything in this article and replace it with "Paul McCartney was not as good as John Lennon." Will that satisfy you? — John Cardinal (talk) 23:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Murder section

I've changed some of the Murder section:

• Per WP:MOSQUOTE, blockquotes should be used only when the quote is four lines or more. Furthermore, some of the quotes are double attributed (Lennon said..."Quote" - John Lennon, for example). I removed the redundancies.
• Imdb and Find a grave are not reliable sources and should not be used in a GA-quality article. I did not remove these, but if someone is working on the article, a top priority should be replacing these sources with authoritative ones. --Moni3 (talk) 15:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction, MOS changes are always welcome. The quotes didn't appear good for layout, however quotes serve different purposes.

What you say about {{cquote}} or {{quotation}} then. Some famous quotations should be brought forward to draw attention. Kasaalan (talk) 16:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

What about a quote box like this?

There is no funeral for John. John loved and prayed for the human race. Please pray the same for him. Love, Yoko and Sean.

Yoko Ono, 1980

Only one quote per section can be highlighted like this, but that gives an opportunity to do just that. Highlight too many quotes with quote templates and they lose their effect. --Moni3 (talk) 16:22, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes we should limit the number. Also white background might be better, if not a pale blue maybe. What others say about this. Kasaalan (talk) 21:52, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I've replaced the imdb and find-a-grave cites as requested. In the process I identified that the statement that Yoko Ono kept Lennon's ashes did not match the cited source, so I've updated it to match. I wonder if this sentence is necessary at all, however.

Regarding her statement shown in the quotebox above, according to Harry 2000b that is a truncated version and the full statement was:

There is no funeral for John. Later in the week we will set the time for a silent vigil to pray for his soul. We invite you to participate from wherever you are at the time. We thank you for the many flowers sent to John. But in the future, instead of flowers, please consider sending donations in his name to the Spirit Foundation Inc., which is John's personal charitable foundation. He would have appreciated it very much. John loved and prayed for the human race. Please pray the same for him. Love, Yoko & Sean.

There may be problems with reproducing the whole statement due to the "plug for Lennon's charity" effect. Others may opine on that aspect but I will now reword things to indicate that that is the start and end of the quote and not the whole statement, which seems a sufficient course of action to me. PL290 (talk) 12:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no funeral for John. Later in the week we will set the time for a silent vigil to pray for his soul. We invite you to participate from wherever you are at the time. We thank you for the many flowers sent to John. But in the future, instead of flowers, please consider sending donations in his name to the Spirit Foundation Inc., which is John's personal charitable foundation. He would have appreciated it very much. John loved and prayed for the human race. Please pray the same for him. Love, Yoko & Sean.

Added wikilinks. Kasaalan (talk) 23:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Regarding John Lennon's declared time of death

{editsemiprotected} The time of death in the murder section is incorrect. According to Lennon's death certificate, which, can be viewed here:http://www.jfkmontreal.com/john_lennon/Death_Cert.htm , John was declared dead at 11:15 pm, not 11:07, which is how it currently appears. Nme91 (talk) 20:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

SFN

I would like to suggest we consider converting the citations in this article to use {{sfn}}. This makes the notes neater, and can make editing easier by removing a vast amount of clutter from the markup. Is there agreement with this suggestion? For examples of articles using {{sfn}}, see Hey Jude and The Beatles. PL290 (talk) 12:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I am all for it, and I will do it unless someone else beats me to it or objects to the change. I've written some scripts that help with the conversion and so I am pretty sure it's easier for me to do it than for someone else. — John Cardinal (talk) 14:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I should have mentioned that the conversion to {{sfn}} is a lot easier when the references are in good shape already. In particular, making sure there are years/dates when appropriate, author names if possible, etc. I'll do some citation edits to try and help with that before doing the switch to sfn. — John Cardinal (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Put "Monuments and sculptures" on a diet?

Lennon has inspired a number of monuments, sculptures, etc., and the article should mention that, but the list is a bit out of control. I suggest we remove all the entries except those where there is a news story or other material that supports the notability of the piece. You'll note that some of the citations in that section currently point to blog entries, photos, etc., and not reliable sources that establish notability. — John Cardinal (talk) 02:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Which ones you want to trim. I may break the section into 2 columns which may take less space. Kasaalan (talk) 00:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Monuments and sculptures

• 1981 Los Angeles, USA, City Hall–East, by Brett-Livingstone Strong
• 2001 John Lennon Park, Havana, Cuba, by José Villa Soberón
• 2002 John Lennon Airport, Liverpool, England, by Tom Murphy
• 2005 A Coruña, Spain, by Jose Luis Ribas
• 2006 Almería, Spain, by Carmen Mudarra
• 2007 Imagine Peace Tower, Reykjavík, Iceland by Ono
• 2007 Lima, Peru
• Liverpool, Hard Day's Night Hotel
• Liverpool, Cavern Pub
• Read Hard Rock Cafe, Washington, USA
• "Imagine Monument", Strawberry Fields, Central Park, New York City
• Plaça De John Lennon, near the market on Travessera de Grácia in Barcelona, Catalunya, Spain

Grammatical Error in History: Early years

The sentence: "Lennon was often disruptive in class and ridiculed his teachers, resulting in them refusing to have him as a student." should be corrected to read "... resulting in their refusing...". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.29.210.254 (talk) 23:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Plastic Ono Elephant Memory Band

During John Lennon's final NYC concert, his bands pseudonym was referred too (on the video tape at least) as 'The Plastic Ono Elephant Memory Band.' However, I don't see this on the pseudonym list. Could someone edit/confirm this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MoneyIsMeaningless (talk • contribs) 23:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

(MoneyIsMeaningless (talk) 23:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC))

I have a picture of John Lennon street sign in Lviv, Ukraine. Anyone interested?

As far as I know, this is the only street named after him in the world. At least, I haven't seen anything of the kind before. Though they say there are several such streets, but where are they? (the street in St Petersburg, Russia is not official).

So, I have a picture of me standing near the street sign in Lviv.

Here are the links to the event: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD,_%D0%94%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%BD#.D0.9F.D0.B0.D0.BC.D1.8F.D1.82.D1.8C_.D0.BE_.D0.9B.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D0.BE.D0.BD.D0.B5 (in Russian wiki) http://postup.brama.com/usual.php?what=15015 (in Ukrainian) Diemon.ukr (talk) 11:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

If there is no copyright issue, images on russian wikipedia article are much better than english wikipedia. Kasaalan (talk) 12:40, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

upd: added the file http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lennon-Street-Lviv.JPG Diemon.ukr (talk) 11:41, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I’m more interested in the brickwork - I’ve never seen anything like it!--Patthedog (talk) 11:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

We should crow the picture before using it in articles. Does the sign says John Lennon Street. Kasaalan (talk) 12:32, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, one may check "вул. Джона Леннона" in Google Translator (Ukrainian-English), I may scan a city map as well. Google Maps doesn't show all the streets, but here is another source. http://map.meta.ua/map/lvov/#x:1625:y:-2754:s:0.5:o:1:r:2420x-5800,2614x-5910,2580x-5760,2552x-5688,2620x-5628,2658x-5480,2752x-5382,2926x-5300,3116x-5250,3324x-5226,3494x-5254,3624x-5268,3766x-5296 No.33 is near Mark 5, it's named as "Ленона Дж."Diemon.ukr (talk) 07:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC) Here it is Google Maps http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=ru&geocode=&q=%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0&mrt=all&sll=49.892506,24.033237&sspn=0.006801,0.01929&ie=UTF8&ll=49.881722,24.039717&spn=0.006803,0.01929&z=16--Diemon.ukr (talk) 09:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Finally I cropped the image http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Lennon-Street-Lviv.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diemon.ukr (talk • contribs) 18:18, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Vegetarianism

Was he ever a vegetarian in his life? I've heard that he was after India for at least a wee bit? --207.177.111.212 (talk) 06:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

http://www.ivu.org/people/music/lennon.html some research over the case. Kasaalan (talk) 12:36, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Not really. He tried to stick to a macrobiotic diet, and avoided sugar, except when he had pizza, whoppers, chocolate and coca cola. And coffee -- all forms. If anything, he was a caffeinitarian. Hotcop2 (talk) 14:02, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Lennon was also a poet

{{editsemiprotected}}

In introductory paragraph, I think Lennon should also be identified as a poet. "John Winston Ono Lennon,[1][2] MBE (9 October 1940 – 8 December 1980) was an English rock musician, singer-songwriter, author, poet, and peace activist who gained worldwide fame as one of the founding members of The Beatles." Carasch (talk) 04:10, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

• Your source links are plain text. Would you post the actual references so I can at least take a look? -- Matthew Glennon (^T/_C\^D) 13:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
•  Done My independent research on the subject shows that the community at large reguards him as a poet as well as a song writer. I will add the reference. -- Matthew Glennon (^T/_C\^D) 18:13, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

• Aren't ALL song lyrics writers technically "poets"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't agree with this change. Lennon is not primarily known as a poet, and if we include poet then we could similarly add artist and/or painter, record producer, piano player, etc. It's not that he wasn't those things; adding them in the first sentence of the lead reduces the focus on his primary activities. — John Cardinal (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

• I see that Bob Dylan is labeled as a poet, but I thought of him simply because he has often been called "a poet" by the media, i.e. presumably above and beyond simply making song lyrics rhyme. By contrast, I don't think Lennon has been specifically called a poet very often. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:44, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

• To use another illustration, Charles Osgood writes a fair amount of poetry, but he is listed as a newsman and commentator, which is indeed what his primary job is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→

• I have reverted my own edit and I'm requesting further comment? -- Matthew Glennon (^T/_C\^D) 18:48, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

• The lead mentions "author" which would cover poetry - as far as I am aware Lennon didn't have a volume of his poetry published, but "In His Own Write" and "Spaniad in the Works" both featured his verse. I wouldn't really call it poetry either, a lot of it seemed to be lyrics that he did not put to music for one reason or another and do not use the conventions of poetry. I think author conveys the breadth, and the depth, of Lennon's writing. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

• Many fine points by all. While I suppose I fail to the see the harm in adding the word, I can see where it might detract from the major points in his life. Not to be argumentative, but if he were still alive however, he might disagree - poetry was probably a very large part of his life. -- Matthew Glennon (^T/_C\^D) 19:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with Glennon. However, it's not on the McCartney page, either -- not that that's that weighty (hope you enjoy the triple that). Hotcop2 (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

)

Well, I tend to agree with what you all have said. I suppose I should post on the McCartney page, because it DOES say "poet" (as well as "painter") in his bio... and even though he did publish a volume of poetry and lyrics, going by the arguments above, it is not what he is primarily known as. Carasch (talk) 04:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

"In His Own Write" and "Spaniad in the Works" are both works of poetry technically so it would be right to lable him that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 18:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

It's one word for gods sake, and besides, most people identify him as a poet. I say add. (Chasesboys (talk) 01:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC))

Lennon had books of poems published, that makes him a poet, maybe not a prolific poet, but a poet. GabeMc (talk) 01:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Lennon has a Citroen car commercial airing in France, so he's also a car salesman. http://www.clickliverpool.com/news/national-news/128159-sean-lennons-hits-back-in-row-over-murdered-beatles-tv-ad-images.htmlHotcop2 (talk) 02:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

John Cardinal said:

“ I don't agree with this change. Lennon is not primarily known as a poet, and if we include poet then we could similarly add artist and/or painter, record producer, piano player, etc. It's not that he wasn't those things; adding them in the first sentence of the lead reduces the focus on his primary activities. —(talk) 18:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC) ”

Lennon is listed as an English rock musician, singer-songwriter, author, and peace activist.

Paul is listed as an English singer-songwriter, poet, composer, multi-instrumentalist, entrepreneur, record and film producer, painter, and animal rights and peace activist.

Lennon has two published books of poetry yet you think adding one more word would to his intro "reduces the focus on his primary activities".

Again, sounds like a 100% McCartney guy with no objective opinion. GabeMc (talk) 03:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

What was John Lennon's iq?

There usec to be a sentence about that. Was it removed because it was inaccurate? Does anyone know what his iq is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 03:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

1. 9? ````