Wikipedia talk:In the news

ITN candidates needing feedback Add nomination needing feedback purge

P:CE

Not sure if this is the right place (I wanna going to post on the portal's talk page, but it suggested otherwise) but does anyone else think the length of each day's events has gotten out of hand these past few months? ~DC _{Let's Vent} 18:46, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I wonder if it's really a good idea to include P:CE sections in ITN/C - I for one simply scroll past them. There's obviously a large number of events being added to P:CE which are not of ITN standard, which is good for P:CE but makes the transclusion on ITN/C a bit pointless. Modest Genius ^talk 23:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Anyone else care to comment? Modest Genius ^talk 00:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

On a related point, why does the P:CE white background keep overflowing into the ITN/C entries? I assume some code to close the box is missing somewhere, but can't work out where. Modest Genius ^talk 13:54, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• I think it's worth transclusing (and I like the new headers in there to split up the wall of text) but I think we need a more refined definition of "current event" because the portal boxes are getting way too long. I've noticed the background interfering with the page format as well, but I thought that was just me! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:09, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I know I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but I agree. The P:CE box has gotten out of control long, and although that's great for the portal's original purpose, it has become of very little use at ITN/C. In fact, the length has made it an active hindrance to easy use of the nominations page. I'd prefer removing the transcluded template completely, but if that is not done can we at least give it some background shading so it can be easily differentiated from discussion? Random89 05:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Love Parade

The headline states 17 dead. The current reported figure is 18 dead. -- Marek.69 ^talk 02:01, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

 Updated Just for future reference, you'd normally get a quicker response at WP:ERRORS. :) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Sadly, the death toll of the stampede has risen to 21. -- Imladros (talk) 09:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

29 July 2010

{{editprotected}} Hi. In the "In the news" section for today, 29 July, I'd say the phrasing...

"In the deadliest air disaster in Pakistani history, Airblue Flight 202 crashes near Islamabad, killing all 152 people on board."

...works more effectively. 212.84.100.213 (talk) 12:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit protected}} template. This request is six and two threes. It comes down to personal preference so I see no reason to change it. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 13:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

30 July 2010

{{editprotected}} Misprint: "Airblue Flight 202 crashes near Islamabad, killing all 152 people on board in the deadliest air disaster in Pakistani history" - extra "i" after Pakistan. --Pavlo Chemist (talk) 09:40, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

No error: Pakistani is the genitive of Pakistan. If there is concern that other readers might be similarly confused, the regular genitive (Pakistan's) might be used instead. Kevin McE (talk) 09:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Cluster Bombs

The Cluster Bombs entry needs completely rewritten. As written it sounds like people will stop making and using them. However the majority of the countries that make and use them have nothing to do with this convention, therefore rendering it pretty much useless. US, China, Russia and others. It implies something that isn't the case. Not sure how to rework it short of removing it completely. Canterbury Tail talk 21:14, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

New Flag of Malawi

I hardly think this qualifies for ITN.--Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 17:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

That's nice. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Now now HJ, don't bite the newcomers. Barryob, please familiarise yourself with the criteria at WP:ITN, and then feel free to comment on which stories you do and don't think should be featured at WP:ITN/C. Modest Genius ^talk 22:54, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Bot archiving of ITN/C

Surely this would be pretty easy to set up since it's exactly every 24 hours that the oldest level 2 header is archived. Anyone else think it's a good idea? Or where to find a bot to do it? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Certainly a sensible idea. Miszabot ought to be able to do it, just set it to archive everything over a week old (or to always leave 7 sections in place). Date-based archiving would probably be sensible, see User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo. Modest Genius ^talk 23:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd support an automated process. Remember also that Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/Archives will have to be updated every month. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 02:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources when nominating

This has become an issue lately, especially for those who may be new to ITN/C within the past month. Many blurbs are introduced without context. Please remember that the guideline for ITN/C states, "Make sure that you include a reference from a verifiable, reliable source." It will make the lives of administrators and contributors making assessments easier in determining the significance of the story. We don't want to dig it out of the current events portal or from the actual article, especially if they are long. The more sources, the better. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 02:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

ITN Barnstar

With a lot of help from User:Neutralhomer and User:Melesse, I've come up with an ITN barnstar to compliment the existing current events barnstar. Just use {{subst:InTheNews Barnstar|Your message here ~~~~}}, which will produce:

		The In The News Barnstar
		Your message here HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

--HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I didn't realize we had a current events barnstar? Where can I find these? —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 20:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:BARN lists most barnstars, but not all. The current events one is on there, though. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Declining noteworthyness

The "In the news" events seem to be increasingly mundane and not that notable in nature. I mean, coronal mass ejections and new species of mongoose or something with little info and non noteworthyness? If they found a Mastodon in Alaska or something, that would be cool, but this? Do these really deserve a spot on this section that is seen by everyone who goes to the main page? I don't thin so. 72.95.95.217 (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the astronomy item will be of interest to a lot of people- if you have a look at the article, you'll see that it's not a very common event and surely the discovery if a new species is worth a spot on ITN? You are, of course, welcome to chip in on the candidate discussions at WP:ITN/C. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:25, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

An the award for most unnotable news item goes to

the appointment of a judge on a country's national court. --Leladax (talk) 05:23, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Meh. The Nauru elections a while back was worse. Or the Heineken Cup; a collegiate league in a third world country playing an American sport had more views than than the former despite it being on the page for days. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 06:24, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't mean to engage in a personal attack, but anyone who thinks the appointment of a SCOTUS justice is no big deal obviously lacks even the slightest clue about U.S. politics or society, I'm sorry. This is like someone who says American-football players are sissies because they wear pads. It shows nothing but ignorance of the subject matter. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 16:34, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

We've heard a lot about the SCOTUS' all-encompassing power, but we should probably limit these also. Like the first person from an ethnic background, first person born outside the U.S. or first openly gay justice, etc. Many SCOTUS justices are already old and are on their way out. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 16:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

You are not an expert on everything

The current discord over the Elena Kagan matter seems to derive largely from non-Americans' lack of understanding of how big of a deal the Supreme Court is in the U.S. I can't blame them. The judiciary doesn't get nearly as much attention in other countries as it does in the U.S., nor is it nearly as politicized. Unless you live in the U.S. or follow its politics closely, you really can't grasp the importance of the matter in the country: The front page coverage, the vociferous debates, the confirmation hearings televised live. And people who live in other countries probably don't get how much of an influence the Supreme Court has in Americans' lives (school desegregation, abortion, etc.)

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated case. In quite a few instances, ITN editors have made arguments against an item that show a complete lack of familiarity with the subject matter, such as:

• The new Arizona immigration law is not unique in the U.S.
• A perfect game in baseball is just a statistical quirk.
• A Pennsylvania statewide election for the U.S. Senate is a "local" election.
• Helen Thomas is just "some journalist."
• A $21 billion drop in market value for a company in a single day (as happened to Goldman Sachs in April) is a common occurrence.

I realize people are trying to be helpful by contributing as much as they can to ITN decisions. But part of being intelligent is recognizing what you don't know.

People who are not familiar with a given subject matter should not try to judge for themselves whether a given news item that relates to that subject is important. That doesn't mean they should refrain from contributing. For example, if something happens in the U.S., they could point out that the story didn't make the front page of The Washington Post the following morning or wasn't the lead story on NBC Nightly News.

But please, ITN editors should recognize that they don't know everything! I would never try to judge whether a cricket record is a big deal, for instance. I'll leave that to people and the media in cricket-playing countries. Let's all be ready to defer to those more versed in subject matters when appropriate. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 17:21, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

What a load of patronising bollocks. I know what the USCJ is and what it does, and I still don't see how the simple announcement of a new seat is automatically ITN worthy. I did request detailed information as to how the USSC is 'more powerful' than say the UKSC or any other country's court of last resort, I got nothing in return. The rest of your examples are pretty dubious aswell. I suggest you retract this nonsense summary of your peer's intellectual abilities, or face the rather inevitable abuse. MickMacNee (talk) 17:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I did not say everyone against the Kagan ITN entry is speaking from ignorance. There are valid arguments against it, I suppose. But there are also invalid arguments against it, and some of the ones that we've had have been based on an ignorance of the U.S. system, in my opinion. I'll answer your other question on the candidates page at your request. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 17:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Everything that happens in US is also not automatically ITN worthy. I wont bother explaining why because everyone has been doing that forever. But since i opposed the Goldman Sachs story listed above i will re-defend it. A drop in market value of any company in any part of world is not notable when most other companies are see-sawing all over the place. We posted GM going bankrupt and if Goldman went bankrupt i would have supported that. A simple drop which got recovered was not notable and i still stand by that. BP has lost more than half of its value since Deepwater Horizon disaster. 25% of that in one day. Goldman Sachs is in US and more important to US readers seemed to be the argument and it was simply BS so the story did not make it to ITN. I'm pretty sure others in that list also did have valid reasons -- Ashish-g55 01:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Mwalcoff, pretty much every oppose against Kagan's entry was based around one fundamental issue - the story was simply not notable outside the US. I can't see anyone saying the item isn't important in the US, they simply question how a US domestic news item was listed on ITN. You can spin it any way you want but this was effectively a domestic news item.

The fundamental issue here and one that seems to pop up every other time a US item is nominated is that there seems to be an undercurrent of thought that the US deserves some special dispensation such that domestic news items from that country deserve to be included, when domestic items from others would not. Other users, quite understandably, take exception to this, as is often perceived that American users are pushing forward the idea of US cultural superiority (e.g. the election of a US court judge is of equal (or greater) importance than the election of the head of state in a sovereign country, OR, American college sports have a larger number of followers than some professional international sporting competitions and thus they should be considered equals or better).

In many ways, even though it was probably not your intention, your comment above could be interpreted as you yourself pushing forward this idea of cultural superiority. You provide five examples, all of which are news items originating in the US and straight up suggest that those lacking knowledge shouldn't comment on them. That could easily be intepreted as you saying "non-Americans are not allowed to comment on American items", despite the fact that many opposing arguments in those cases revolve around the same perfectly valid argument - the stories, despite being widely covered in the media, are not internationally important or significant. Obviously this wasn't the case for Goldman Sachs, but as Ashishg correctly points out when compared to banks and MNC's going bankrupt or the fourth biggest company in the world losing 50% of its value in less than 6 weeks, there is nothing special about that story.

At the end of the day you can argue till you are blue in the face that the election of a USSC judge is being massively followed by American media, or that the Arizona immigration law is all anyone can talk about at the 'water-cooler'. But until it is recognised that for the 5.7 billion people outside the US, that things can be different then these arguments will continue on and on. And before you come back with the standard "50% of users are from the US" or "the US is the biggest English speaking country in the world" type arguments just try to bare in mind that English is the de facto global Lingua Franca and that as a result the en.wikipedia is used by more people in more different countries than any other... --Daviessimo (talk) 21:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you guys should just ignore Mwalcoff. He's just a troll YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:38, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, just seems to be looking for a fight. Beach drifter (talk) 16:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Nobody's saying that every US event needs to be automatically listed at ITN; I think Mwalcoff is simply trying to say that people should realise that they're not experts on everything. This reminds me of the Talk:Main_Page thread that resulted from posting Eurovision. To most of the world, Eurovision is just an obscure talent show; however, the people who actually knew what they were talking about (which would not have included me in that case) were able to defend the Eurovision posting and allow it to run its course on the Main Page. Brian the Editor (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

As Daviessimo pointed out that Mwalcoff's post is pretty much saying "Non-americans should not oppose american topics" as they clearly are not experts if they oppose. Euro vision is not held in single country and is euro wide contest so its sort of in different category all together. I dont think anyone argued over the international aspect of the contest. But saying that domestic american items should only be commented on by americans since others are not "experts" is plain wrong. -- Ashish-g55 15:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the idea is that you should take 2 minutes and read relevant articles instead of rushing to judgment. Some of the opposes referred to Kagan being a part of Obama's cabinet (not true at all) and others mentioned that being the Chief Justice was more important than being an associate (they have the same power on the court). BtE's point isn't comparing US politics to Eurovision, he's providing an example of misinformed editors rushing to judgment (I was probably one of them). And quite frankly, what's wrong with taking time to read up on a topic before making a decision? ~DC _{Let's Vent} 16:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I took a week off for vacation and didn't think about ITN once and boy, was that refreshing. As I said above, I recognize that there are valid arguments against all of the items mentioned above, but some editors have been making what I would consider quite invalid arguments based on their ignorance of the subject matter. I think people, myself included, would be better off to take clues from the media or better-versed editors when it comes to determining the importance of an item on a topic they know little about. Daviessimo raises an important point, and that is the argument that items predominantly of interest to people in one country should not be on ITN. This is not (or is no longer) an ITN criterion -- nor should it be, in my opinion -- yet it is often used as an argument in ITN candidate discussions. If we can permanently settle the argument over this concept, we may be able to avoid the endless bickering that occurs whenever someone nominates an important U.S. domestic occurrence. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Just be sure to distinguish between who you are calling an idiot and who you aren't in future, this whole section was totally innappropriate, and I am annoyed you didn't get more of a slagging for it that you did, even though you buggered off to avoid it anyway. Personally, I've had just about my fill of being told what the fuck I do and don't know about your poxy country, when you've got less than no clue what my background or education is. And I'd actually like some evidence that that condition of international significance was even removed legitimately, because I'm struggling to think of the last time a truly domescitc item got posted. I am betting it was a US item anyway. And as we all know, policy that ignores common practice, is not policy. MickMacNee (talk) 00:22, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Criterion statement

Just a quick note, since I don't participate in In the News frequently: The Procedural subsection in the General criteria page has this statement:

2. A blurb conforming to the style guide is listed at Portal:Current events or one of its subpages

The issue is that the style guide is listed as "inactive and kept as a historical archive". The statement has to be altered for certain, no? Do contact me at my talk page if you want a reply since I'm unlikely to check back soon. Thanks! ANGCHENRUI ^Talk♨ 14:51, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Good point. I've removed the reference to this style guide. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:59, 14 August 2010 (UTC)