Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style: Difference between revisions
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::Which bit of the guide exactly is at issue here? I can't see a problem. I generally avoid the jostling of parentheses and unspaced em dashes, but sometimes it can be a little difficult. Is there any need to be explicit? [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 00:11, 27 November 2010 (UTC) |
::Which bit of the guide exactly is at issue here? I can't see a problem. I generally avoid the jostling of parentheses and unspaced em dashes, but sometimes it can be a little difficult. Is there any need to be explicit? [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 00:11, 27 November 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I agree the answer is to separate them when possible. When it's not easy to separate them, though, I think MoS currently says contradictory things. It says em dashes are unspaced, and it says a space should follow a closing bracket, specifically including dashes in the scope of that statement. When would you actually leave a space between a closing bracket and a punctuation mark? Off hand I can't think of a case. [[User:Mike Christie|Mike Christie]] [[User_talk:Mike Christie|(talk)]] 00:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC) |
:::I agree the answer is to separate them when possible. When it's not easy to separate them, though, I think MoS currently says contradictory things. It says em dashes are unspaced, and it says a space should follow a closing bracket, specifically including dashes in the scope of that statement. When would you actually leave a space between a closing bracket and a punctuation mark? Off hand I can't think of a case. [[User:Mike Christie|Mike Christie]] [[User_talk:Mike Christie|(talk)]] 00:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC) |
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== "Parent–child" link discussion == |
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Please see [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (linking)#Parent–child links]] for a discussion on discouraging a parent link when a child link is nearby. [[User:Dabomb87|Dabomb87]] ([[User talk:Dabomb87|talk]]) 05:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:06, 27 November 2010
Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting. Restarting a debate that has already been settled constitutes disruptive editing, tendentious editing, and "asking the other parent", unless consensus changes. |
Wikipedia's Manual of Style contains some conventions that differ from those in some other, well-known style guides and from what is often taught in schools. Wikipedia's editors have discussed these conventions in great detail and have reached consensus that these conventions serve our purposes best. New contributors are advised to check the FAQ and the archives to see if their concern has already been discussed. Why does the Manual of Style recommend straight (keyboard-style) instead of curly (typographic) quotation marks and apostrophes (i.e., the characters " and ', instead of “, ”, ‘, and ’)?
Users may only know how to type in straight quotes (such as " and ') when searching for text within a page or when editing. Not all Web browsers find curly quotes when users type straight quotes in search strings. Why does the Manual of Style recommend logical quotation?
This system is preferred because Wikipedia, as an international and electronic encyclopedia, has specific needs better addressed by logical quotation than by the other styles, despite the tendency of externally published style guides to recommend the latter. These include the distinct typesetters' style (often called American, though not limited to the US), and the various British/Commonwealth styles, which are superficially similar to logical quotation but have some characteristics of typesetters' style. Logical quotation is more in keeping with the principle of minimal change to quotations, and is less prone to misquotation, ambiguity, and the introduction of errors in subsequent editing, than the alternatives. Logical quotation was adopted in 2005, and has been the subject of perennial debate that has not changed this consensus. Why does the Manual of Style differentiate the hyphen (-), en dash (–), em dash (—), and minus sign (−)?
Appropriate use of hyphens and dashes is as much a part of literate, easy-to-read writing as are correct spelling and capitalization. The "Insert" editing tools directly below the Wikipedia editing window provide immediate access to all these characters. Why does the Manual of Style recommend apostrophe+s for singular possessive of names ending in s?
Most modern style guides treat names ending with s just like other singular nouns when forming the possessive. The few that do not propose mutually contradictory alternatives. Numerous discussions have led to the current MoS guidance (see discussions of 2004, 2005, 2005, 2006, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2008, 2008, 2009, 2009, 2009, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2017, 2017, 2018, 2018, 2019, 2021,
2022). Why doesn't the Manual of Style always follow specialized practice?
Although Wikipedia contains some highly technical content, it is written for a general audience. While specialized publications in a field, such as academic journals, are excellent sources for facts, they are not always the best sources for or examples of how to present those facts to non-experts. When adopting style recommendations from external sources, the Manual of Style incorporates a substantial number of practices from technical standards and field-specific academic style guides; however, Wikipedia defaults to preferring general-audience sources on style, especially when a specialized preference may conflict with most readers' expectations, and when different disciplines use conflicting styles. |
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RfC on Consensus
Given WP:CONLIMITED, to what extent and under what circumstances can individual WikiProjects and users customize article appearance with individual styles that deviate from site-wide style guidelines? Interested contributors are invited to participate there. --Moonriddengirl (talk)
Question on WP:PAIC
One of my favorite MOS guidelines is WP:PAIC. Need some help in its uniform application. What if the ending puncutation mark isn't a comma or a period, but a parenthesis? Should the ref tag go after the closing paren or before? Saebvn (talk) 22:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- After. Click WP:PAIC's evil twin WP:REFPUNC, and within that click reference 5. Art LaPella (talk) 23:13, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- WP:REFPUNC. That did it. Thanks much! Marking resolved. Saebvn (talk) 23:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Now, it's unresolved. Could someone take a look at Kim Jong Un, the first sentence? I moved the reference to after the parenthetical expression, and now it looks strange. The reference (note 2) is clearly intended to accompany the hanja characters. What do you think? Saebvn (talk) 23:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
- You're right, it does look strange, now that I see an example. Ordinarily, parentheses surround a thought that can be omitted and still understand the main idea, and I can't explain why the Chicago Manual would recommend putting the footnote outside. My contribution here is automating the rules not making them, so what do the rest of you think? Art LaPella (talk) 01:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Didn't the guideline say that the ref goes before the ) if it only applies to the text between the ( and the ), and after the ) if it also applies to the text before the (? A. di M. (talk) 01:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe it should, but reference 5 mentioned above says: "The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed. 1993, Clause 15.8, p. 494 - 'The superior numerals used for note reference numbers in the text should follow any punctuation marks except the dash, which they precede. The numbers should also be placed outside closing parentheses.'" Art LaPella (talk) 01:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- My suspicion has always been that this has more to do with visibility, readability and aesthetics than with strict logic (the reason in reverse that American unlike British typographers and editors put periods and commas within quotation-marks regardless of the logical or grammatical relationships.)[1] Wikipedia's footnotes enclosed in those little square brackets[2] look much cleaner and more visible outside parentheses. —— Shakescene (talk) 10:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Question, A.diM. - does the guideline say that? I don't see it... Saebvn (talk) 20:46, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
- It doesn't now, but I seem to remember it used to (but I might be mistaken). A. di M. (talk) 22:43, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
- Question, A.diM. - does the guideline say that? I don't see it... Saebvn (talk) 20:46, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
- My suspicion has always been that this has more to do with visibility, readability and aesthetics than with strict logic (the reason in reverse that American unlike British typographers and editors put periods and commas within quotation-marks regardless of the logical or grammatical relationships.)[1] Wikipedia's footnotes enclosed in those little square brackets[2] look much cleaner and more visible outside parentheses. —— Shakescene (talk) 10:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe it should, but reference 5 mentioned above says: "The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed. 1993, Clause 15.8, p. 494 - 'The superior numerals used for note reference numbers in the text should follow any punctuation marks except the dash, which they precede. The numbers should also be placed outside closing parentheses.'" Art LaPella (talk) 01:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
- Didn't the guideline say that the ref goes before the ) if it only applies to the text between the ( and the ), and after the ) if it also applies to the text before the (? A. di M. (talk) 01:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Arbitrary Break: New Proposal Specifically for Kim Jong Un
As to the Kim Jong Un article, how would you all feel if I moved the note back inside the parenthesis, as it specifically relates to the hanja characters therein, and then started a thread at MOS:REFPUNC about an exception to the general "after the punctuation" rule, similar to the exception that currently exists for dashes? Perhaps an exception for notes relating to parenthetical expressions containing translations, or something to that effect? Saebvn (talk) 18:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
- As of this timestamp, I've moved reference mark 2 within Kim Jong Un to inside the parentheses. Saebvn (talk) 01:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
- As of this timestamp, I've moved this discussion to the MOS talkpage at the link below. Thanks to all who helped with this -- I think we've gotten over the immediate hump, but it's clear that there's a ton left to be resolved generally regarding REFPUNC. So, I'm closing this out as "resolved," but please see the link below. Saebvn (talk) 01:48, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Marking resolved. Moving here. (Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this discrete discussion. I found this very helpful. Although there's clearly more discussion to be had, this one was great. Thanks again!) Saebvn (talk) 01:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Images
I think, it would be appropriate to boldly warn against thoughtless JPEG usage for images. Most people are apparently ignorant of the image formats (though they can be good specialists in their areas) and by uploading drawings and other "clean" images in JPEG format waste their own work. Adding a link to WP:PIFU might help to improve the quality of illustrations. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 04:48, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with the spirit of the proposal, but I'm not sure what we could do to significantly improve things. We already have a section at Wikipedia:Image use policy#Format explaining which file formats are appropriate for various situations, and another explanation at Wikipedia:Preparing images for upload#Do not save diagrams as JPEG with an example image. I would guess that most people who upload images have already created and saved the image before they visit the image upload page, so even a big flashing warning on the upload form would probably come too late. (What's worse than saving a "clean" image as a JPEG? Converting that JPEG back to a PNG because of a box that says JPEG is inappropriate.) —Bkell (talk) 05:28, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe some templates could help educate? Image page:
This image appears to be of poor quality; this may be due to use of an inappropriate format during its preparation or final rendering. Please replace it with a higher quality image. |
- And something for the uploader's talk page too. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 12:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Talk pages by size
Please see the new page Wikipedia:Database reports/Talk pages by size (to be updated weekly).
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style ranks 10th, with 17753 kilobytes.
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) ranks 11th, with 16097 kilobytes.
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages) ranks 269th, with 2609 kilobytes.
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) ranks 285th, with 2498 kilobytes.
Perhaps this will be a motivation for greater efficiency in the use of kilobytes.
—Wavelength (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Are spaced em dashes OK in a list?
[1] [2] Art LaPella (talk) 21:19, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- WP:ENDASH, item 2 is pretty clear: "In lists, to separate distinct information within points—for example, in articles about music albums, en dashes are used between track titles and durations, and between musicians and their instruments. In this role, en dashes are always spaced." Dabomb87 (talk) 23:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- No, they aren't. Use spaced en dashes, or unspaced em dashes, although the space en dashes look much better IMO. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 23:21, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- Agree 100%; they're big enough to be disruptive. Tony (talk) 02:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- I also agree. Ozob (talk) 02:48, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- Agree 100%; they're big enough to be disruptive. Tony (talk) 02:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's pretty clear they should be okay if using a list. --Monterey Bay (talk) 06:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
- They are serving the same function that they normally serve, namely to set off some text from other text. Therefore the same rules apply, and they should be unspaced (or replaced by spaced en dashes). Ozob (talk) 16:11, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Em dashes and parentheses
I just deleted the space after the closing parenthesis from this sentence:
- Spent shale may contain char (some authors use the terms coke residue or semi-coke instead of char) —a carbonaceous residue formed from kerogen.
(The article is Oil shale extraction, a current FA candidate.) I deleted it on the basis of the rule that an em dash is unspaced; but now reading about the rules for brackets I wonder if it should be left as it was. (In fact, I think it should be recast to eliminate the issue, but for the sake of illustration let's let it stand.) MOS says: "An opening bracket should be preceded by a space, except in unusual cases; for example, when it is preceded by an opening quotation mark, another opening bracket, or a portion of a word" and "There should be a space after a closing bracket, except perhaps where a punctuation mark other than an apostrophe or a dash follows, and in unusual cases similar to those listed for opening brackets". The latter is a remarkably confusing formulation, but I think I would interpret it to mean that if a closing parenthesis is followed by an em dash there should be a space before the em dash. Is that the case? If so, can the wording be made clearer? Mike Christie (talk) 19:05, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Em dash is punctuation, so it should be unspaced, just liked "... instead of char), a carbonaceous ..." would. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 19:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- If that's the consensus, then I think the note on closing brackets should be changed to make that explicit. The exception given for a dash seems to be in conflict with your (and my) interpretation. Mike Christie (talk) 20:19, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- Which bit of the guide exactly is at issue here? I can't see a problem. I generally avoid the jostling of parentheses and unspaced em dashes, but sometimes it can be a little difficult. Is there any need to be explicit? Tony (talk) 00:11, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree the answer is to separate them when possible. When it's not easy to separate them, though, I think MoS currently says contradictory things. It says em dashes are unspaced, and it says a space should follow a closing bracket, specifically including dashes in the scope of that statement. When would you actually leave a space between a closing bracket and a punctuation mark? Off hand I can't think of a case. Mike Christie (talk) 00:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
"Parent–child" link discussion
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (linking)#Parent–child links for a discussion on discouraging a parent link when a child link is nearby. Dabomb87 (talk) 05:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC)