Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

Common name, birth name and post-nominal initials

I noticed an editor making a excellent job of cleaning up bios to conform with the MOS. In one case Mark Evaloarjuk, I notice that the style guide does not give any information as to the correct format. Is the current oepning correct, with the exception that "nee" should be "ne", or should it be '''Mark Evaloarjuk''' (né '''Evaluarjuk'''), [[Order of Canada|CM]] (died [[July 3]], [[2002]] By the way would it be possible to rewrite Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Maiden names so that it applied to both women and men?

Waller

A current FAC begins:

Hector Macdonald Laws (Hec) Waller, DSO and Bar (4 April 1900 – 1 March 1942) was a senior officer ...

Where do we usually put the "Hec"? - Dank (push to talk) 22:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The best way is to give any informal name or nickname separately from the full legal name, thus:

• Hector Macdonald Laws Waller, DSO and Bar, known as Hec Waller (4 April 1900 – 1 March 1942) was a senior officer ...
• Hector Macdonald Laws Waller, DSO and Bar (4 April 1900 – 1 March 1942) was a senior officer ... He was known to friends as Hec Waller.

This helps make the meaning clear; otherwise it might be misread as saying that 'Hec' was an unused fourth Christian name. It has the advantage that the full legal name runs uninterrupted. It is probably fair to say that the Manual of Style does not at present say this explicitly and it may help editors if it did. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:06, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks much. - Dank (push to talk) 23:14, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Uh, I think this is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The way I've written his name is just as his Australian Dictionary of Biography has it. Hec is a typical shortened form of Hector, not unique to this guy, and I don't see how it would confuse people. I've used the same style for FA-level bios like William Dowling (Bill) Bostock, Valston Eldridge (Val) Hancock, and others, without issues. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Assuming that he was generally referred to as "Hec" both during and after the service, I'm with Ian on this one; FAC has no lack of fussy reviewers (including me), and I don't remember seeing this cause a problem at FAC. OTOH, if only some people called him "Hec", or only for part of his life, then I think we need to say so instead of writing (Hec). - Dank (push to talk) 03:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I understand that, Dank, and if there was some particular point when that started, I would note it, but all the biographical material I have on him seems to refer to him as Hec pretty well from birth, without making a deal about it. OTOH, his nickname of "Hard Over Hec" (unique to him) was gained for a specific characteristic observed in the Mediterranean campaign during World War II, and I've highlighted that at the appropriate point in the narrative. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Birthplace/hometown

In biographies, particularly infoboxes, should we be giving the municipality in which the person was born, or the municipality in which the person's family was living at the time of birth? In modern times, many people whose families live in suburbs are born in a nearby large city where hospitals are located. The actual birth city seems less encyclopedic than the city in which the person was living when born, but it's more technically correct, isn't it? Powers ^T 15:31, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

In my view, a person is born in the city (municipality, whatever term is appropriate for the country) they "live" in at the time of their birth, not the location of the hospital, the car, or the taxi. For me, the only time it becomes more complicated is if they're born while the mother is visiting another city, and if there's sourcing for that, I'd deal with it on a case-by-case basis, depending on the sources.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Anyone else have any input? Surely we have a standard of some sort? Powers ^T 14:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

We should do whatever is clearest for readers, which means adopting whatever common convention is used by existing reference sources. I think the convention is that the "place of birth" is the actual location where the infant was born. Further evidence and reasons I lean toward this interpretation:

• Our own Place of birth article says: "The place of birth is not necessarily the place where the parents of the new baby live. If the baby is born in a hospital in another place, that place is the place of birth." The article doesn't provide any citation for this, but still it makes sense to be consistent with that article to avoid confusing readers.
• Location of birth has more practical significance. For example, location of birth often has a role in determining citizenship, while place of parents' residence does not (although parents' citizenship often does).
• The wording of the infobox is "Born: October 28, 1955 (age 56) / Seattle, Washington, USA". This implies that we're stating specifically where a person was born. If the infobox field were labeled hometown or place of origin, I might lean the other way.
• The "municipality in which the person's family was living" guideline is more difficult to interpret consistently. Under such a standard, if a Mercer Island, Washington, family has a baby in Seattle, the baby's place of birth is Seattle. What if the family has the baby in Everett, Washington (while visiting Grandma in the suburbs), or Vancouver, British Columbia (while on a day trip), or Beijing, China (while on a short vacation—or on a six-month sabbatical). There's a continuum of possibilities, and no clear place to draw the line. The actual-place-of-birth standard is much simpler.

—Caesura^(t) 15:27, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It is not really difficult is it? The place of birth is whatever place the mother is when the baby pops out - how could place of birth possibly mean anything different? So I agree with Caesura and what our current guidelines state. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 17:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course, for place of birth it is the geographical name (e.g. town) of the place where delivery occurred. Exception might be --where this place cannot easily be determined or where it is a meaningless set of coordinates-- when delivery occurs on high sea. In this case it should be name of the vessel possibly in conjunction of a nautical location. Mootros (talk) 07:53, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Sheikh?

Sheikh is an honorific title which has the same connotation as "Lord" or "Lord Prince", especially in the context of members of Arabian royal families. According to WP:HONORIFIC the honorific titles Sir, Dame, Lord and Lady are included in the initial reference and infobox heading for the person. However, there is no guideline regarding the honorific title "Sheikh". Also, WP:NCNT does not give a clear advise either, except of that "there is no explicit convention for Middle Eastern countries". Since it has similarities with that of the honorific titles Sir or Lord, I would argue that it is therefore logical to include the honorific title "Sheikh" as well in the initial reference. Am I right? Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 19:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I would agree. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I respectfully disagree entirely. Mr D. E. Morphon, you appear to know a lot about titled western families, but not to have comparable visibility of the working practices of Islamic communities, especially those outside of the Arab world (where hereditary titles do still exist). The use of "Sheikh" as an Arab hereditary title is a minority use of Sheikh nowadays. I live in a location that has thirteen mosques, six madrasas and two Islamic centres. Each is headed by an imam (or seveal imams) or other senior persons in authority. None is from a titled family or has earned a formally bestowed title from a national honors body like those found in Britain and most Commonwealth countries. Yet all these heads of units are variously called “Mufti”, “Shaykh”, “Maulana” etc by those within their groups. I am not really bothered that occasional Wikipedia articles might refer to such an imam as “Imam Smith”, although, as you know, it is not usual or desirable on Wikipedia pages to refer to people with their titles (“Professor Smith then …”, “In 1987, Dr Smith ...”). See for example the articles for famous doctors like Paul Gachet and Christiaan Barnard. Moreover, a much wider “problem” exists. Perhaps you could google people like Abdur Raheem Green, Yusuf Chambers, Ahmed Deedat, Hamza Yusuf, Yusuf Estes and Zakir Naik, to give just a few examples. They are routinely called “Sheikh” (commonly also spelled “Shaykh”), “Hazrat”, “Maulana”, etc, regardless of family background, the quality and extent of their formal education, or their levels of authority within hierarchies. Yusuf Estes, for example, often speaks publicly around the world where he is called, or calls himself, “Sheikh Yusuf Estes”. Yet Estes has not inherited a hereditary title, he was not born into a socially elevated Muslim family (indeed he is a convert), he has not gained higher formal qualifications and no organisation has bestowed upon him a title so that he can act as their representative. In other words, Shaykh Yusuf Estes is a shaykh because he says so or because the people promoting his speeches say so. This is VERY common. In my view, we should restrict the use of Islamic honorifs on Wikipedia to (a) hereditary titles; and (b) FORMALLY BESTOWED titles representing specific posts or levels of education/accomplishment.GorgeCustersSabre (talk) 09:46, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Gorge. The policy on post-nominal initials may provide a guide: it requires that "they are issued by a country or widely recognizable organization with which the subject has been closely associated". I would say that if we were to permit this, we would need a citation that shows this condition has been met. We have the same problem in the Hindu sphere with the word "Swami". It is not always formally bestowed, and we have too many article titles which start with this honorific when they should not. Yworo (talk) 20:26, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Need help on titles and honorifcs

I'm trying to pin down exactly what titles and post-nomial letters are allowed. The article in question is List of Royal College Colombo alumni. I attempted to remove nearly everything, but was reverted by another user. We've agreed to some removals, but not others. Specifically, here are the ones in contention (that I say should go but he does not):

• Military ranks (Major X, Second Lieutenant Y)
• FRCS, etc.: These are memberships in a society, and appear (if I understand correctly) to be identical to the use of the pre-nomial "Doctor", which is expressly forbidden.
• Justice (when used as a title for a judge or ex-judge)
• pdc, ndc: These indicate that a military officer attended a particular military school.
• SLA, SLAC, etc: These indicate the branch of the military a person served in
• CCS, SLAS, SLOS, etc.: These indicate the branch of the Sri Lankan government the person works in (like adding DoJ after someone's name in the U.S.
• MP: Stating they are/were a member of Parliament.
• Deshamanya and another I can't find: Titles bestowed by the Sri Lankan Government.

The only one of the above that I consider to possibly fit within the MOS is the last one, as it looks like it might be the equivalent of "Sir", which is allowed. One thing the other user keeps arguing is that many of these are based on the British tradition...but as far as I can tell, we don't use them for people from the UK (for instance, I don't see MP after the names of members of the UK Parliament). In essence, the other user is asserting that this is a specific Sri Lankan tradition, while I'm arguing that we do not follow said traditions, with a few very narrow exceptions. However, as someone of US origin, I do find the whole subject a bit outside of my knowledge base, so the input of MOS regulars is appreciated. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I personally agree with keeping military ranks, senior fellowships (like FRCS) and titles such as Deshamanya, but not the others. We certainly don't use them in British biographical articles, so the other editor is incorrect. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:13, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Just so that I understand, could you explain what makes a military rank more acceptable than, say, a political rank (which we don't include, like "President")? Also, what makes those fellowships more important than membership in a limited membership commercial guild? I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just trying to figure out how we're making these distinctions. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The use of post nominal letters, and prefixes in Sri Lanka is a hybrid of native, colonial and post independence styles developed over the years. Therefore suffixes such as Dissawa, Adigar originated from the native Kingdom of Kandy; titles like Justice (Sri Lanka still used Roman-Dutch law), Mudaliar from the Dutch and was continued by the British. Due to over 100 years of British colonial rule the heavy use of titles and honors became popular in Sri Lanka and continued after Independence. In the post republic era were a local honors system was developed the old practices remained even after they may have died out in the UK. Qwyrxian, compared with the US, Commonwealth countries have a heavy use of titles, military ranks are such. Officers tend to retain and use their military ranks as a title after leaving the service in good order even though they may not were their old uniform (unlike in the US) unless they are reactivated or receive a military funeral. The practice of use of military ranks as titles are rarely used in the US, other than in the south before and after the Civil War. Cossde (talk) 08:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, commissioned military ranks tend to be retained for the rest of one's life. Other titles are not. In fellowships, I favour following the formal British practice, which is to always include senior fellowships (FRS, FBA, FRCS etc), but not other memberships, qualifications etc. Postnominals like MP, SLA etc are also transitory. One ceases to use them after one has left the organisation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

How to handle name changes?

When the (living) subject of a biography changes name, and publicly identifies and is known by the new name, I presume we should rename the article and generally change the name in the article to the new name (with the addition of née maiden name in the lead for a married woman). However do we change all usages of the name, even when some obviously refer to things that happened before the name change? Barring any last-minute objections, I intend to rename the Alicia Gorey article to Alicia Loxley, to reflect her recent marriage and name change. (We have appropriate references, including public self-identification. Talk:Alicia Gorey#Name change: Gorey --> Loxley has the details.) However sentences don't make sense (on their own) with the new name, eg "In July 2008, Loxley joined Nine News Melbourne as a reporter" - because at the time she was not Loxley, she was Gorey.

What should we do - refer to her by her current name throughout the article, or her name at the time? Do the MOS guidelines cover this explicitly? Should they?

On a related matter, I suspect that some references to her from other articles should not be changed, because they refer to past roles, before her name change, eg in Today (Australian TV program)#Finance. However this might lead to anomalies, eg if the same article refers to her in the present tense, by her new name (eg Today (Australian TV program)#Substitute presenters. Does MOS offer any guidelines on this? Mitch Ames (talk) 11:44, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I was involved in a similar dispute last year over Louise Mensch née Bagshawe, who changed her surname on marriage but retains her maiden surname for her books. I'm strongly of the view that we should not rewrite history, and any matter dealing with the past before a name change should use the old name. It's clear to the readers of a biographical article because they should have started with the introduction which explains the change of name. With other articles, it's easy to put in a piped link to help explain. Sam Blacketer (talk) 13:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

What about people who appear in someone else's BLP who change their name after they have no association with the subject of the BLP? Should their name be retrospectively changed in someone else's article. MoS/B isn't clear on the subject and some people want to put (currently known as ABCDE) after the name they were using at the time. I agree with SB above that we should use the name that was being used at the time. Introducing a new name that was not used at the time can confusion. I suggest adding something to MoS/B like - "If someone mentioned in another person's BLP changes their name after their mention in the BLP, still continue to use the name they were using at the time of their mention. If they have their own Wiki article, link to that article from the name they were using at the time".Momento (talk) 22:44, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

First, I would do a page move to the new name, which will automagically put a redirect in for the old name. Next, assuming the biography is written in chronological order, I would leave everything before the name change the way it is, cover the name change in a Wedding section, and then carry on using the new name for the rest of the article. I don't think this will be too confusing because the lede should have both names in the first sentence, then the article will consistently refer to the person by the old name, until a clean changeover to the new name. I don't think you should go back and change other articles with links—it's technically unnecessary due to the redirect, and it's not wise from a style point, either. Especially if the person is someone with credits to their name (artist, actor, author, etc.) those credits are not revised after the name change, so changing the name in our articles on those subjects would be wrong. I can take a whack at writing up something to go into the MOS if you agree with what I've said here. Livit⇑^Eh?/_What? 14:23, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with your suggestion. You may have intended this but perhaps in the wedding section say something like "Since her marriage Gorey started using Loxley as her surname" to make it clear that she initiated the name change, not us Wiki editors.Momento (talk) 02:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Thai names

I propose to add an exception to the WP:LASTNAME guideline for Thai names, corresponding with the remark on Icelandic names. It is already practice in articles on Thai persons to address their subjects by first names, because editors who have started these articles and are familiar with Thai naming customs have used this practice instinctively. It is really weird for someone acquainted with Thai naming practice to read a person referred to only by their last name.

Some references for the use of first names when referring to Thai people: "When possible, address Thais by military, professional, or academic title + first name." (Mary Murray Bosrock: Asian business customs & manners, 2007); "Among the Thai, the first element is usually the given name and it has precedence in identifying persons over the second element which is the surname. The usual form for a general in the Thai army, for example, is the title of general followed by the given name — not the surname, as in the west." (Paula Kay Byers: Asian American genealogical sourcebook, 1995); "...the average Thai, who is still addressed for the most part by his first name only. A person named Sulaksana Patibatsarakich, for example, would be called simply Sulaksana or Nai (Mr.) Sulaksana; ..." (Valentin Chu: Thailand today, a visit to modern Siam, 1968); "A surname, or family name, is never used alone even in the most formal situations..." (Shōichi Iwasaki, Inkapiromu Puriyā Horie: A Reference Grammar Of Thai, 2005)

In English-language literature on Thailand topics and Thai people, you will always read it this way, even in the book titles, e.g. "Thaksin: the business of politics in Thailand" (not: "Shinawatra: the business of politics in Thailand"); "Divided over Thaksin: Thailand's coup and problematic transition" (not: "Divided over Shinawatra..."); "The Thaksinization of Thailand" (not: "The Shinawatrization")

More evidence for this practice in English-language texts: "Mr. Thaksin left the country...", "Mr. Thaksin is back at the center of Thai politics...", "Ms. Yingluck, a businesswoman with no political experience" (New York Times, Aug. 16, 2011); "Well, I just want to extend my congratulations to Prime Minister Yingluck for her leadership." (Speech by President Obama, Nov. 19, 2011); "...government spokeswoman Titima Chaisang told reporters, adding that Yingluck had asked her deputy to chair a cabinet meeting in her place." (The Telegraph, 29 Nov 2011); "Abhisit was backed by 249 parliamentarians..." (The Guardian, 19 March 2011); "Thai opposition seeks impeachment of Prime Minister Abhisit" (The Guardian, 24 May 2010); "The Constitutional Court stripped Samak from office on Tuesday" (The Australian, Sep 11 2008); "The airport siege ends after a Thai court disbands Mr. Somchai's People Power Party for alleged vote-buying" (WSJ, July 3, 2011).

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies#Subsequent use should be amended correspondingly to avoid unclarity, misconceptions and inconsistent use in the future. --RJFF (talk) 14:10, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose. I'm not sure whether seemingly anecdotal evidence would justify such an entry. Yes many English language newspapers follow this conventions for some politicians, but it seems far fetched to state that there is such a "proper" way in English. I'd say, on a case by case (i.e. article by article) base might be the way forward but not a template. A Reference Grammar Of Thai, "the average Thai", Asian business customs & manners... That is exactly the problem: The "the average Thai" does not speak English; she speaks Thai. The references are about Thai language or social context in Thailand or Asia. Living or dead persons, are normally referred to by their last name (if not the full name) in EN.Wikipedia. However, I have no problem that some articles may not do this because source texts might not do this either. The comparison to Iclandic might be too far fetched, as it is not a surname but a patronymic. In sum, the problem with such a MOS entry is that it suggests that there is an authoritative agreement in English about Thai names, rather than specific practices in specific circumstances. Would this entry improve any quality here? Mootros (talk) 03:35, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I find the idea that we should not document a practice because it has not been clearly shown to be set in stone elsewhere, despite the fact that there is no evidence to the contrary, and despite the fact that it is already done in every Wikipedia article about Thai persons, rather absurd. Wikipedia's Manual of Style need not follow authoritative agreement; that is what is required of encyclopaedic articles, not guidelines. We shouldn't need to cite the major English style guides when saying a Chinese name has the family name before the given name. Determining proper use on a case-by-case basis is of course appropriate, but in the majority of cases regarding Thai persons the given name is what would be used, and I don't see any argument against noting the practice in this MoS. This is unrelated to having or not having hat notes prescribing the fact to article readers. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:34, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

For a concrete and explicit example, refer to the quote from the Telegraph style book below.[1] --Paul_012 (talk) 08:38, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

In Thai and Malay, the given name comes first followed by a surname or patronymic, but the given name is used after first mention as in Mahathir Mohamad (his father was Mohamad something). Cambodians, Vietnamese, Laotians and Burmese also use this system, but sometimes in reverse order. (Aung San Suu Kyi's father was Aung San. She is Suu Kyi on second mention.)

And also:

• Asian Pacific American Handbook, via the California State Library:[2]

  Most Thai names have just two name parts, family name last. But spellings of the parts may be exceptionally long by Western standards. Thais tend to be known by their personal name, listed first, even on second reference: Prapass Charusathira, Mr. Prapass, Mrs. Prapass; Prem Tinsulanonda, Mr. Prem, Mrs. Prem. Thai royal names actually are written as one long Thai word and are broken up only for the convenience of foreigners. They usually consist of seven syllables; the break usually occurs after the third syllable.

• Reuters Handbook of Journalism:[3]

  Thai names
  The first name is used alone at second reference, e.g. Prime Minister Chatichai Choonhavan said ... Chatichai added ...

• University of Queensland Style and Produciton Guide 2012:[4]

  Most Thais have two names. The first is the given name and the second the family name. Use both names on first mention, then use the first only. So Chuan Leekpai is Mr Chuan.

Why is this discussion even needed? --Paul_012 (talk) 08:51, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

The point of this discussion is determine whether to include this entry into the MOS or not. Good work, btw! Mootros (talk) 10:03, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Foreign names and their English spelling

I came across Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir and Eiður Guðjohnsen, names which are hard to read for me. Why don't we put the common English spelling of the name in the beginning of the lede, in parentheses as a significant alternative name? If I want to find out how their name is commonly spelled in English I have to go all the way down to the references section. That makes no sense. MakeSense64 (talk) 06:48, 15 March 2012 (UTC)