Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming

Resolving six years of controversy quickly and easily

I believe the reason this article has been the center of controversy for the past six years is that it's inaccurate.

The article's flaws are obvious to anyone who has studied this model in any depth. Don't believe me? Do five minutes of independent research... contact any hypnosis or NLP school in the world.

Why is this the case? Traditional Wikipedia rules have failed us.

Virtually everyone who has attended a lecture on NLP has received a "license." I submit that one can only learn communication techniques by hearing words and tonality while watching body language, in addition to reading books. When a source is "licensed," it means he took the time to attend a lecture and figure out what NLP is actually about.

Yet "licensed" sources have been regularly rejected on the grounds they have a conflict of interest.

It's time for us to view licensed sources for what they are-- significantly more knowledgeable than unlicensed sources about NLP. --Encyclotadd (talk) 17:49, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggest you read WP:RS and WP:COI, and come to think of it WP:SOAP, oh but they are "traditional wikipedia rules", pity really, this is the Wikipedia. If you want to change policy then propose it on the policy pages, please don't waste people's time here. The talk page is to discuss changes to the article, in accordance with policy. ----Snowded ^TALK 20:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

hmmm, this problem cannot be solved unless we agree on a general structure or all players from one side of the fence leave the article to the others to decide holistically what should be written. I think some common sense beyond what the current policies are should prevail. There is a voting system yes? Could we propose a structure and vote on it. Enemesis (talk) 12:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Encyclotadd, which portions of this article are "inaccurate"? Please tag them and provide proof of their inaccuracy. The article's "flaws" are not obvious. Please tag them and provide proof of any flaws. Don't just say "do five minutes of independent research..." and leave all the work to other editors. Do it yourself then provide proof of the independence of your research. You say Wikipedia's traditional rules have "failed us". They haven't failed me recently. They have been a great help in getting disruptive, non-collaborative and unhelpful editors banned from editing certain topics. If "virtually everyone who has attended a lecture on NLP has received a license" I think you would be on firmer ground arguing that there is something wrong with NLP not Wikipedia. Within WP:COI guidelines, there is nothing to restrict licensed practitioners from editing this article, as long as they conform to rules regarding verifiability of statements, reliability of sources and do not promote the subject or indulge their own opinions. I would welcome some input from experienced NLPers, but if you can't back up your edits, back off.

Enemesis, Wikipedia is not a democracy. One editor can easily overturn the edits of several others providing they can back up their edits with reliable sources. Famousdog (talk) 14:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

hmmm, well that could go on forever or until some one gives up. Perhaps wikipedia should consider that not everyone has that kind of time up their sleeves Enemesis (talk) 03:11, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

"Wikipedia" doesn't "consider" anything - it is an encyclopedia, and if you can't be bothered to spend a little time finding reliable sources for any material you want to change/add, then I can't help you. Famousdog (talk) 11:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Snowded has an industry affiliation that a Wikipedia administrator recently described as a conflict of interest, though he has not been banned from the article on the basis that his edits have been within guidelines. However, I believe his response above reflected that conflcit and was not particularly cooperative or helpful. Snowded, we can cooperate and you can defend your point of view-- what I'm suggesting change is factual accuracy not perspective. Everyone can agree on supporting accuracy.

Famousdog, There are two important areas of inaccuracy, and they defy tagging in the article because they are more complicated than changing a single sentence or even paragraph, and they're important to understanding this model. The first is "anchoring." For the sake of simplicity, you can just think of anchoring as being the same thing as classical conditioning. It's not the same thing. But it's clsoe enough that for the sake of this conversation you can think of them that way. (You can do a Google search for "Pavlov" and "classical conditioning" to easily understand what I'm saying.) Anchoring develops the ideas of classical conditioning further in a variety of important ways. It's taught at every reputable hypnosis and NLP school in the world as a 101 subject.

There is no way to understand the NLP model without a substantial amount of information about anchoring. It's presently a glaring omission in this article to anyone who has received any training in hypnosis or NLP. But there is no way to defend this perspective using so called "reliable sources" because not enough work has been done yet within a peer reviewed context, so the subject doesn't appear. But it's all over the hypnosis and NLP texts and in every school.

A big second issue with the article is that it suggests NLP is said to magically change things. The word "magic" appears in a lot of NLP literature, and the suggestion that things can magically change can influence someone powerfully, so is useful in NLP. But anyone who has read the literature understands, NLP is a model. The founders of the subject say over and over again that "the map is not the territory," meaning the model is not a human brain. NLP is always put forward as just a model. The word magical is used as a language pattern. This is very much confused in the article. Bandler is quoted as saying the common cold can be cured with words. A great deal of additional context should be given to that statement for the article to be understood to be accurate.

The way to solve this is to rely on sources that are licensed and highly trained in NLP because they are the ones who understand how to factually express the article.

Again, this is not about point of view. We can leave point of view in the article to so called psychological experts. But in expressing the model factually and accurately, we need to rely on the people writing about and teaching the subject matter sometimes professionally. It's the only way Wikipedia is going to get this right.--Encyclotadd (talk) 05:30, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

This is just an implicit attack on WP:RS. If you want to change WP policy, then take it up at the appropriate policy article. You cannot do so here. As for your claim that "Snowded has an industry affiliation that a Wikipedia administrator recently described as a conflict of interest", please provide some evidence. ISTB351 (talk) 05:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Enemesis launched some even more nonsensical accusations on my talk page so its obvious that WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:AGF are policies s/he wants to abandon along with WP:RS. I think Encyclotadd is referencing a diff I gave him when I was adjudged not be a sock puppet (another accusation made) and not to have a COI, but not to worry he is following in a path, with identical accusations, to that trodden by several other SPAs in the past along with Enemesis ----Snowded ^TALK 08:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I think Encyclotadd and Enemesis need to provide some evidence for their assertions or changes that they want to make and stop treating Wikipedia as a forum. This will go nowhere until they either a) provide reliable sources or b) succeed in changing (several) WP policy/ies. Ranting here will not move things forward and, if pursued, will simply lead to a topic ban for them both. From this point onwards I will be observing WP:SILENCE until they suggest some concrete, constructive changes to the article. Famousdog (talk) 11:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:FORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
it will go nowhere anyway, until all of one side leaves we are at a a stale mate. You can talk wiki stuff all you like but those are the facts. IT was the way it was when headly was here. we were lucky he screwed up so obviously. If you would like to discuss changes we cannot agree until we know a common format, then we have a guide, other wise we have hot air breezing this way and that. You all know this is true and we are just playing the game until it comes to it. Snowdd maybe those accusations are true and thats why you get accused so many times... Famousdog the evidnce is over 5 years old and there does not seem to be a database that has those resources anymore, I think it's foolish given headlydown was such a violator in the domain of wikipedia to discard it. I can nonly rely on people who were there at the time now, and they have not been on for a hile. I will wait until they log in and respond ...Enemesis (talk) 11:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC) Famousdog, my proof is that every single hypnosis and NLP school in the world agrees that anchoring is a central concept. Like I said before, peer reviewed journals have virtually nothing on anchoring, and the term anchoring has meanings that exist outside the framework of NLP, so even identifying the term in peer reviewed journals is not enough. But the importance of anchoring to NLP is undeniable. Some editors would have you believe that rules on original research must be observed here, and that calling a school and asking a teacher about it is a violation. But that rule is getting in the way of TRUTH. We have a choice between a dishonest article that follows the rules, and an honest one that doesn't. I vote for honesty. And I think the five pillars supports this perspective.--Encyclotadd (talk) 14:03, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

There hasn't been much posting about this topic in the past month. Who else would support our changing the rules if I make that argument in the appropriate area as suggested by others on this talk page?

I would not. I am all in favor of changing rules that are not working for a living community. However, I do not believe this is the case here and your arguments to the contrary are not very convincing. First and foremost, you are supporting (I believe; your own language on the subject is a bit confusing) accreditation as a sole standard, which I cannot in good conscience agree with. You've said yourself how easy it is to get "licensed". Wikipedia already has some guidelines for determining whether a source is reliable that are much more useful than your overly simplified ones. Second, if you are changing a general rule for the benefit of a single article - in other words, if your rule change mentions NLP licensing, even as an example - then I again cannot agree in good conscience. It is obvious in this instance that the rule is premature and the impact on Wikipedia itself has not been considered. Of course, I may reconsider my position if you had a more formal proposal (preferably linked; I fear I'm only adding to the problems with this talk page drifting well away from the content itself by posting this) that I could read that gave both evidence that you understand, an explanation I can easily understand regarding, and careful consideration to the problems specifically with, wikipedia's standards of reliability.

What I WOULD support would be you writing an independent, well researched article on the two concepts you've mentioned, and then linking them in. You seem to be very passionate about this topic and I have some confidence in your ability to be rigorous and diligent in your research. Providing links of the quality you've elsewhere specified on this talk page (e.g. court documents) would be a real treat. From a purely aesthetic point of view, this would also result in an article that is easy to learn from. I'm primarily an engineering student and use this encyclopedia as a starting point in my investigation of several difficult topics, and the articles that work best for me are the ones that keep the supporting information needed to understand the presented topics close at hand, but absent from the article itself. When things are neatly compartmentalized like that, I can read the supporting information one time for context, and then refer to the "general" (general, only relative to my own understanding; someone else may consider a well written related topic the general article and link to the one I'm reading for context of course) article directly from then on as a reference. If you had such an article written about, at the very least, "anchoring", then I would enjoy reading it.

"The I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant." Martin Luther King, Jr.--Encyclotadd (talk) 05:42, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Broken sentence

The technique section says

The client is typically encouraged to consider the consequences of the desired outcome may have on his or her personal or professional life and relationships, taking into account any positive intentions of any problems that may arise (i.e. ecological check).

There are several problems with this sentence, not all of them being grammatical. AxelBoldt (talk) 23:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Counselling & Psychotherapy Research, Vol 10(1), Mar 2010, 39-49

This is from a peer reviewed American Psychological Association journal, and is available in the psychinfo database.

Effects of neuro-linguistic psychotherapy on psychological difficulties and perceived quality of life.

"Aims: The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of Neuro-Linguistic Psychotherapy on psychological difficulties and perceived quality of life of clients who came for psychotherapy during free practice. Method: A total of 106 psychotherapy clients were randomly assigned to a therapy group or a control group. The outcome was assessed by the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV Personality Disorders (SCID II) with respect to clinical symptoms and by the Croatian Scale of Quality of Life (KVZ) with respect to Quality of Life. The therapy group received the measures at pre-, post- and five-months follow-up occasions, whereas the control group received them initially and after a period of three months. Results: In the therapy group, as compared to the control group, there was a significant decrease of clinical symptoms and increase in the quality of life. With respect to clinical symptoms, effect sizes were 0.65 at post-measurement and 1.09 at follow-up, indicating a substantial reduction of symptom strain, which is comparable to the well established effects of Cognitive Behavior Therapy. We also found a significant increase in perceived quality of life after therapy, as compared to the wait-list control group, with effect sizes between 0.51 and 0.73. Therapeutic improvements were still present five months after the end of therapy, showing further development in the same direction. Conclusions: Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)"

I recommend we remove the claim that NLP has been discredited from the introduction in deference to reliable sources suggesting it's highly effective.

Also this type of current research means that either the American Psychological Association is engaging in pseudo scientific research, or Wikipedia's classification of NLP as pseudoscience is wrong. Who else thinks it's the latter? --Encyclotadd (talk) 17:43, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

We've been through this before. You've got a single paper there that references two approaches based on reported results. You really need those incorporated into an overall review of the field before you can start making amendments. ----Snowded ^TALK 16:20, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, you deleted four references. How many more are needed? Then you failed to respond even to this one.

You resort to vague notions such of "overall review of the field" because you cannot comment on specifics. You are aware that the specifics are highly contrary to your agenda.

What's also interesting is that you have patented an approach (US 8,031,201) to eliciting information using vagueness. In doing so you relied upon the very same ideas that have been discussed in NLP for 40 years regarding how vague versus specific communication impacts. You recommend ideas in one context and that you are subverting in another.

Snowded, this isn't just about your personal academic integrity. These ideas can help a lot of people.--Encyclotadd (talk) 21:13, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

See WP:SYNTH, you are drawing conclusions from source material. You need to find a source that uses that material to come to a conclusion you cannot come to that conclusion yourself. This has been pointed out to you many times - last time in respect of the anchoring edits you have added back in despite the fact they were previously rejected. You have also been warned about personal attacks and edit warring before. Please use the talk page to discuss changes and focus on content issues, do not comment on other editors (especially when you get it badly wrong) ----Snowded ^TALK 22:01, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

The intention of WP:SYNTH is to avoid expressing conclusions that represent a synthesis of multiple sources. That rule is absolutely NOT about replacing an unreliable source with three references to American Psychological Association peer reviewed journals.

Also you have still neglected to speak specifically about the source provided above. According to an American Psychological Association peer reviewed journal two short years ago, "Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques." That represents some of the most current research on the subject.

Snowded, Does a major discrepancy exists between your attitudes towards these ideas off Wiki and what you have been expressing herein? For example, according to Wikipedia, "The [neuro-linguistic programming] Milton Model lists the key parts of speech and key patterns that are useful in directing another person's line of thinking by being 'artfully vague'." Your patent US 8,031,201 is principally concerned with "deliberate ambiguation," or being artfully vague. You subvert an approach to vagueness in this Wikipedia NLP article that you take credit for and support in another context.

How many dots have to be connected for NLP to finally receive an honest expression on this website?--Encyclotadd (talk) 00:39, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

You need a third party reliable source that links your "dots", thats the way Wikipedia works. Please address content issues ----Snowded ^TALK 05:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

LOL, that's exactly what we're discussing... a third party reliable source that said: Conclusions: Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)" You have yet to comment on it specifically.--Encyclotadd (talk) 13:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

not sure why your failure to understand policy causes you to laugh but never mind. The article compares NLP with cognitive behaviour therapy based on self reported outcomes. Fine, you may want to make a case that it is a notable point to place somewhere in the description of NLP. However to use it to modify the criticism section or the current wording on pseudoscience you need to find a source that reviews that material and others and comes to a conclusion that NLP is not a pseudo-science. If you can find that they we can balance the existing statements. Again, the need for THIRD PARTY sources has been explained to you before ----Snowded ^TALK 18:08, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Thought you guys would like that metaphor. :)

Snowded, once again you are speaking in generalities. The APA peer reviewed study (more recent than any appearing in the article, I believe) states that, "Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques." Please be specific this time about how best to reflect this view in the article.--Encyclotadd (talk) 03:02, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Except it's not an "APA peer reviewed study". —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

You're right. The study itself wasn't peer reviewed. Rather, the study concluding that "Neurolinguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on a par with other, well-established psychotherapeutic techniques" appears in one of the most highly regarded American Psychological peer reviewed journal. (Some of you may be aware from searching the pscyhinfo database that the APA has several categorizations of journals, and will be pleased to learn that this appears in the strongest category. Obviously the APA takes the subject and conclusion seriously.) Now the Wikipedia article would be improved to reflect this finding and others like it. The question is specifically how. Snowded?--Encyclotadd (talk) 18:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

AfD of Anchoring (NLP)

There are many extremely weak articles on WP that are part of the "NLP project". They should, in my opinion, be deleted for a variety of reasons, starting with this one. Famousdog (talk) 09:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

You might as well reach into the chest of NLP and pull out its still beating heart. Anchoring appears in virtually every single book by the NLP founders.

Improvements to that article would be appreciated, however. You may want to read the original work Frogs Into Princes to understand the concept before researching third party reliable sources.--Encyclotadd (talk) 14:08, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

As much as I wish I could "reach into the chest of NLP and pull out its still beating heart", I'll just have to make do with a few AFDs of deeply substandard articles. By all means have a go at improving the article. Lord knows, interested parties have had long enough to do so. Famousdog (talk) 06:08, 30 May 2012 (UTC)