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Orville (cat)

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Facepalm I searched "Orvillecat" in order to watchlist in case someone ever had the dim idea to make an article, only to find it was already here. The encyclopedia is not a newspaper, we do not chronicle every half-baked, person-of-interest, funny-story-of-the-day out there. Ladies who walk into mall fountains and kids who videotape their father slapping them make a media splash for a few days, then disappear without a trace. If in a few months this becomes some epic "roflcoptercat" meme, then sure, revisit it. For now, it has hit a few blips in a google news search, one of which is just gawker. But this isn't about sources per se, it is about WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, WP:EVENT and an overall WP:NOT in general. This is not what the Wikipedia is for Tarc (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tarc, you'd delete Barack Obama if it weren't for his Twitter notability. Spoilsport. PS: It's been written about in Dutch, American, Canadian, and German media (reliable sources all of them) so you'll have to drop the "few blips" argument. ;) Drmies (talk) 17:59, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Yes, I can see why a newspaper would cover this abomination, but it isn't enough to satisfy notability. Maybe we need a WP: You have GOT to be kidding me category for delete. ;) JoelWhy? talk 17:57, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're obviously not familiar with the future of Wikipedia: if an article has references, it stays. This cat is obviously notable worldwide. Drmies (talk) 18:00, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Establishing notability has to be more than "X sources == article creation", though. We have meta concerns of scope and depth to consider; again, look at the case of the woman-in-fountain and how many news stories ran that day or in the next few days, but then vanished by the next news cycle. An encyclopedia shouldn't be covering the ephemeral. And for the record, I'd like to see that twitter page there canned too. Tarc (talk) 18:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is the worlds first taxidermy / UAV hybrid, that's a significant advance for Art & Science! How could this possible not be notable? --JasperWallace (talk) 18:45, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This is appalling to me on personal level, but there are over four thousand different mainstream media publications reporting on this subject. It seems to meet the general notability guidelines too. Yamaguchi先生 19:07, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organisms-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The article has plenty of independent sources, but that is irrelevant for a news story. Because Wikipedia is not a newspaper, stories like Orville the cat are assessed per WP:EVENTS, which has 5 criteria.

(1) Lasting effect (most important criterion) -- An event that is a precedent or catalyst for something else of lasting significance is likely to be notable. Events are often considered to be notable if they act as a precedent or catalyst for something else. This may include effects on the views and behaviors of society and legislation. For example, the murder of Adam Walsh ultimately led to the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act, among other notable subjects. Fail. Orville has no lasting effect in any area of life (e.g., legal, artistic).

(2) Geographical scope -- "Notable events usually have significant impact over a wide region, domain, or widespread societal group. An event affecting a local area and reported only by the media within the immediate region may not necessarily be notable. Coverage of an event nationally or internationally makes notability more likely, but does not automatically assure it. By contrast, events that have a demonstrable long-term impact on a significant region of the world or a significant widespread societal group are presumed to be notable enough for an article." Fail While this story has been reported around the world, it has not had an impact anywhere in the world.

(3) Depth of coverage -- "An event must receive significant or in-depth coverage to be notable. The general guideline is that coverage must be significant and not in passing. In-depth coverage includes analysis that puts events into context, such as is often found in books, feature length articles in major news magazines (like Time, Newsweek, or The Economist), and TV news specialty shows (such as 60 Minutes or CNN Presents in the US, or Newsnight in the UK)." Fail This story has not received any deep, analytic coverage regarding its cultural impact.

(4) Duration of coverage -- "Notable events usually receive coverage beyond a relatively short news cycle. The duration of coverage is a strong indicator of whether an event has passing or lasting significance. Although notability is not temporary, meaning that coverage does not need to be ongoing for notability to be established, a burst or spike of news reports does not automatically make an incident notable." Fail It’s too soon to tell, but there is no evidence that Orville will have long-term coverage.

(5) Diversity of sources -- "Significant national or international coverage is usually expected for an event to be notable. Wide-ranging reporting tends to show significance, but sources that simply mirror or tend to follow other sources, or are under common control with other sources, are usually discounted." Pass There has been domestic and international media coverage of this event.

Considering that the Orville (cat) article fails 4 of 5 criteria, and particularly has no lasting effect, which is the most important issue in assessing the notability of events, this article should be deleted. NJ Wine (talk) 22:02, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:RECENTISM. This story is a news spike if the is still around in a year then the article can be restored and enhanced. It can also be moved to Wikinews if it isn't there already. MarnetteD | Talk 02:51, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Once notable, always notable, but you need real, sustained, independent coverage for notability in the first place. A group of news stories all at about the same time about an otherwise unremarkable subject is never enough for notability. Nyttend (talk) 04:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Lots of international news coverage, guessing now if it's a news spike is WP:CRYSTAL. Deleting because it offends our sensibilities makes Wikipedia:Systemic bias worse. Using dead pets is nothing new for Dutch "artists." [1] CallawayRox (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. CallawayRox (talk) 16:57, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It gets ample coverage in reliable sources, which write in detail about it, showing images and even video. Dream Focus 17:08, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per NJ Wine's discussion of WP:EVENTS. If this particular piece of art winds up having actual lasting notability, then I would see nothing wrong with recreating this article then. At the moment, however, the article's sources are nothing but a bunch of "interesting tidbits of the day" type news coverage, with nothing to show any lasting notability. Rorshacma (talk) 17:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - this falls under WP:NOTNEWS, Wikipedia doesn't catalog every silly stunt someone does. - Ahunt (talk) 20:11, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We have quite a lot, though. Which stunts become history is an interesting question.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 01:53, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I had totally forgotten about Balloon boy. Thanks for reminding me. Cigar guy was new to me: that's the future of Wikipedia. Drmies (talk) 09:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Milowent. That response. Five stars and a good-natured bravo. That's a masterpiece of linksmanship. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 19:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think these other news stories fall into the premise of WP:INN, which states the following: The presence of similar articles does not necessarily validate the existence of other articles, and may instead point to the possibility that those articles also ought to be deleted. Inclusion is not an indicator of validity, notability, or quality because any individual may edit a page. For example, if there are 20 garage bands that have articles on Wikipedia, it is not a valid indicator that any other garage band deserves an article. Orville (cat) as well as some of these other articles deserve deletion. NJ Wine (talk) 03:40, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It goes both ways, NJWine. The continued existence of these articles, and keeps at AfD in many of those cases, is also food for thought. Indeed, the enduring notability in recorded history of what some consider absurd things for hundreds of years is what interests me. Sure, you could put some of these up for AfD if you wished, but there are thousands more of them. You could nominate Sam Patch, he was truly just an idiot who jumped off a few things, until he died doing it. Yet he is still written about 180 years after his death.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 04:07, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Milowent, I agree that it's interesting what events get publicity for centuries. However, it is not our job at AfD to debate whether an event should have gotten media coverage, but rather whether that coverage makes the event notable or not. Sam Patch had plays and poems written about him, and became an eponym for people who jump into Niagara Falls, and thus that article at minimum passes the depth of coverage and duration of coverage criteria of Wikipedia's event notability guideline. If cat-helicopters become a craze, and it's given the name "Orvilling", then Orville (cat) will be notable. However, at the current time, the story is not notable, and it's too soon to have an article on it. NJ Wine (talk) 04:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NJWine, we are the choosers of Orville's fate! Plays, poems, tributes, please join me!

Be thy son of Adam or daughter of Eve

God bestowed upon us the power t'grieve

For dearest furry friends flow tears of brine

And inspiration to create artwork most divine:

The helicopter feline

Struck by a car whilst chasing a rat

Orville's owner vowed to create "half machine, half cat"

Disembowled, stuffed, preserved in formaldehyde

Technology made him one sweet flying ride

(And saved on cremation costs as an aside.)

Alas, Orvillecat may not be a lasting tale

Despite fifty citations in the Daily Mail

Translated to myriad languages without fail

(Not to mention eight separate versions in Braille.)

But if we write poems and plays and musical themes,

And perhaps some lolcats and Ceiling Cat cross-memes

Orville, he may, he may yet live on

And we'll google him for centuries a yonder and anon,

And future wikipedians will wonder

Just what drugs we were on.

--Milowent • ^hasspoken 05:40, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000^(talk) 12:57, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete "Guessing" now that this is a news spike has nothing to do with WP:CRYSTAL, which is a policy that governs article space content, not Wiki space argument :). One thing that is certainly true is that Wikipedia is not the news, and it is not speculation to note that coverage on this is all very recent. It is as such impossible to gauge whether it truly constitutes long-term notability or a short-term spike in the news over a considerable curiosity. Obviously, recreate this if it's still generating interest over time, but until such point that that can be established this is a one-off news story about a one-off event/happening/curiosity. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 19:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. NJ Wine seems to hit it right on the mark, especially concerning this event's 'lasting effect'. -- Lord Roem (talk) 18:27, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: News coverage has slowed down not much. There is an outstanding offer of €100,000. Wikipedia:Don't demolish the house while it's still being built CallawayRox (talk) 19:39, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't do much to address WP:EVENT concerns as detailed above, and that house essay is a tired ARS trope that IMO doesn't mean much of anything. Tarc (talk) 20:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - just because any body can edit wikipedia it doesn't mean that any old B******s can go in.Petebutt (talk) 03:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I saw coverage of this in a newspaper in London the other and thought it was a good story. As this is being presented as a work of art, it seems quite comparable with The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living - the notorious work of Damien Hirst. See also cat organ - a medieval equivalent which has lasted quite well. People may well dislike such stuff but it is our policy not to delete for this reason. Note also that WP:EVENT is irrelevant because this is an objet d'art not an event. An event would be something like Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II or Transit of Venus, 2012 - occasions and incidents which are all over our front page, just like they are every day. Warden (talk) 19:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lol a "work of art", what bullshit. It is an event ("man attaches copter blades to dead pet"), just as the girl who hiccuped for years was a story about the hiccuping and not the girl, just as the woman-falling-in-fountain is about that and not the woman herself, and so on. This is why we don't cover pop media trash; it flares for a few days before disappearing into yesterday's "remember that meme?" occasional recollection. Tarc (talk) 19:12, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Play him off, Keyboard Cat... Warden (talk) 19:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 67: / Line 67: @@
 *'''Keep''' I saw coverage of this in a newspaper in London the other and thought it was a good story.  As this is being presented as a work of art, it seems quite comparable with [[The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living]] - the notorious work of Damien Hirst.  See also [[cat organ]] - a medieval equivalent which has lasted quite well.  People may well [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT|dislike]] such stuff but it is our [[WP:CENSOR|policy]] not to delete for this reason.   Note also that [[WP:EVENT]] is irrelevant because this is an ''objet d'art'' not an event.  An event would be something like [[Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II]] or [[Transit of Venus, 2012]] - occasions and incidents which are all over our front page, just like they are every day.  [[User:Colonel Warden|Warden]] ([[User talk:Colonel Warden|talk]]) 19:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 *:Lol a "work of art", what bullshit.  It is an event ("man attaches copter blades to dead pet"), just as the girl who hiccuped for years was a story about the hiccuping and not the girl, just as the woman-falling-in-fountain is about that and not the woman herself, and so on.  This is why we don't cover pop media trash; it flares for a few days before disappearing into yesterday's "remember that meme?" occasional recollection. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 19:12, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
+*:: Really?  Play him off, [[Keyboard Cat]]... [[User:Colonel Warden|Warden]] ([[User talk:Colonel Warden|talk]]) 19:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)